Rebane's Ruminations
March 2013
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“… invoking an infinity of unseen universes to
explain the unusual features we see in this one is just as ad hoc as invoking
an unseen Creator.”, Paul Davies, physicist

George Rebane
 
ComputedUniverseOn these pages I have long advocated intelligent design (ID) as the most compelling idea that unifies science and certain philosophies/religions (here).  A strong supportive argument for ID has been the idea that our universe is really a massive running program, that all that we are and perceive is the result of an ongoing cosmic computation.  Physicists have posited this as a very plausible explanation of how things work when they look at matter, energy, and even time at the smallest of scales.

A stumbling block for the universe as a running program has been that no one was able to grapple with the configuration of such a humungus piece of code that could compute an entire universe right down to the interaction of the most basic pieces of what is called the Standard Model (which recently received additional credibility with the observation of the Higgs particle in the CERN super collider in Geneva).  However, it now looks like this difficulty has also been overcome with the discovery of a very simple and short piece of code that can compute this and all logical universes.

Jürgen Schmidhuber introduced a simple ten-line code snippet to TEDx audiences recently that indeed can optimally compute the universe.  He opened with –

“I will talk about the simplest explanation of the universe. The universe is following strange rules. Einstein’s relativity. Planck’s quantum physics. But the universe may be even stranger than you think. And even simpler than you think.”  (the rest of the transcript and video is here)

This topic is difficult for secular humanists to consider primarily because it avoids the spot creation explanation of religious fundamentalists, explains all that science has observed, and yet allows for a “Great Programmer”, Intelligent Designer, or, if you will, God.  So the secular humanists’ answer is to simply lump ID as another sneaky way to impose fundamentalist creationism on society, and then dismiss the whole thing out of hand.  Next case please.


Today it looks like denying ID – as a distinct third alternative to explain what is – the forum of reasonable debate co-locates the secularists with primitives who also deny science in its core principles – Occam and falsifiability.

[Addendum] I received the following as a comment from Dr Wayne Hullett, who had trouble getting TypePad to accept it as such.  Hullett’s cogent argument disputes my above proposition regarding the necessity for a Great Programmer, and expands it in a ‘scentless direction’ by re-introducing the turtles all the way up thesis which has also been covered in these pages.  I have therefore included his comment (italicized) as an appropriate addendum to this post, and will offer my response later.

Re George 0639:  The Discovery Institute’s stated purpose (http://www.discovery.org/about.php) is the advocacy and reinvigoration of theistic principles and everything that the ID crowd does there, including Meyer, Behe and Dembski has that agenda in mind.  It is from that mindset that Meyer’s “insufficient probabilistic resources” argument flows.

Kauffman, while at the Santa Fe Institute, in “At Home in the Universe”, gives convincing arguments that life emerges almost certainly from natural processes, and there has been recent experimental support for his ideas.  Like us, Kauffman is just trying to understand how things work and how they got to be the way they are, while Meyer et al have a theistic agenda to advance.  DI’s Wedge Strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy) as well as their political actions lead me to believe that they are using ID as a trojan horse to get Creationism taught in schools.

I do not rule out the possibility that our universe is a simulation, and would not be surprised or alarmed to find out that that is the case.  But to think that some “great programmer” is intervening to goose the system toward some preferred path is to assume the existence of said GP.  That is just belief without evidence, i.e. religion.  And, according to Kauffman, there is no necessity for such intervention.

I do not see how the invocation of the good Sir William makes the simulated universe hypothesis the simplest explanation of the observed data.  If we are simulated, then there must exist a substrate in which the “great computer” exists (a super universe?), and all the questions that we have about our origins and how our universe works simply become the same questions about the super universe.  (Is there a super multiverse? Is the super universe itself simulated?  Is it computers all the way up?)  in addition, there are then the questions about the details of the Great Computer and the program it is running.  Where is the simplification? Yes, we are groping in the dark now, with various unpalatable theories like multiverses proposed as possible explanations, but if we continue using scientific principles, ie not using the God hypothesis, I think we will eventually emerge from the woods into the (possibly simulated) light.  The God hypothesis is always a temptation, especially for those who give up too early and invoke it.

I am all for open, evidence-based scientific enquiry, but we need to be aware when some group is using conclusion-based reasoning to advance it’s own unsubstantiated belief system, especially when its ultimate end is totalitarianism.
[Addendum] I received the following as a comment from Dr Wayne Hullett, who had trouble getting TypePad to accept it as such.  Hullett’s cogent argument disputes my above argument regarding the necessity for a Great Programmer, and expands is in a ‘scentless direction’ by re-introducing the turtles all the way up thesis which I have covered in these pages.  I have therefore included his comment (italicized) as an appropriate addendum to this post.

Re George 0639:  The Discovery Institute’s stated purpose (http://www.discovery.org/about.php) is the advocacy and reinvigoration of theistic principles and everything that the ID crowd does there, including Meyer, Behe and Dembski has that agenda in mind.  It is from that mindset that Meyer’s “insufficient probabilistic resources” argument flows.

Kauffman, while at the Santa Fe Institute, in “At Home in the Universe”, gives convincing arguments that life emerges almost certainly from natural processes, and there has been recent experimental support for his ideas.  Like us, Kauffman is just trying to understand how things work and how they got to be the way they are, while Meyer et al have a theistic agenda to advance.  DI’s Wedge Strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy) as well as their political actions lead me to believe that they are using ID as a trojan horse to get Creationism taught in schools.

I do not rule out the possibility that our universe is a simulation, and would not be surprised or alarmed to find out that that is the case.  But to think that some “great programmer” is intervening to goose the system toward some preferred path is to assume the existence of said GP.  That is just belief without evidence, i.e. religion.  And, according to Kauffman, there is no necessity for such intervention.

I do not see how the invocation of the good Sir William makes the simulated universe hypothesis the simplest explanation of the observed data.  If we are simulated, then there must exist a substrate in which the “great computer” exists (a super universe?), and all the questions that we have about our origins and how our universe works simply become the same questions about the super universe.  (Is there a super multiverse? Is the super universe itself simulated?  Is it computers all the way up?)  in addition, there are then the questions about the details of the Great Computer and the program it is running.  Where is the simplification? Yes, we are groping in the dark now, with various unpalatable theories like multiverses proposed as possible explanations, but if we continue using scientific principles, ie not using the God hypothesis, I think we will eventually emerge from the woods into the (possibly simulated) light.  The God hypothesis is always a temptation, especially for those who give up too early and invoke it.

I am all for open, evidence-based scientific enquiry, but we need to be aware when some group is using conclusion-based reasoning to advance it’s own unsubstantiated belief system, especially when its ultimate end is totalitarianism.

[Addendum2]  With apologies for not providing a longer and more unified response to the above addendum by Dr Hullett, I invite extending the discussion of its points by offering a short compendium of propositions that I hold to be true.

1.    Man cannot yet (ever?) think all possible thoughts.  And all men cannot even think all thoughts that are possible to think today.  I cannot think all possible thoughts that are thought today.
2.    Being thought-limited gives rise to a ‘belief horizon’ – where the What and How end and meet the teleological Why.  The belief horizon is dynamic, and recedes as our knowledge increases.  Beyond the belief horizon resides the mystery of the Why.  We seem to be hardwired to ask that question as we are to supply an answer.
3.    Positing the mystery of a Great Programmer as part of that horizon is a simplification beyond that offered by such complexifications as a multiverse of infinite numbered universes.  Most certainly Occam saw the GP as a simplifica
tion without even invoking the notion of a belief horizon.
4.    Perhaps we don’t agree (or know?) how to ascribe simplicity to notions considered in such conversations.  I am open to an operational definition of simplicity that allows a more objective comparison than is evinced in the comments to date.
5.    What is a theory but a cohesive framework that explains past observations/experiences, and that is also useful for reliable predictions of future events.  Such future events may include additional discoveries about/from the past, in addition to new experiments fashioned specifically to test the power (comprehensive range) of the theory.  Failing such predictions, the theory may be weakened or completely falsified.
6.    Given #1, a Theory of Everything is a display of maximum hubris by today’s science.  Hypothesizing the encompass of all existence most certainly dismisses the teleology of the universe, and with it the notion of a belief horizon.
7.    In my own case, I am a Bayesian with a non-monotonic belief system or credo. Therefore all of my beliefs are falsifiable (in the sense that there may yet be arguments that will make me change my mind), and as simple as I can make them.
8.    Yes, it could be computers (turtles) all the way up instead.  I can’t rule that out, but my mind boggles at the concept.  Maybe as I learn more, my mind will not boggle prematurely.

[Addendum3]  Here’s a report and a comment stream that relates to ID from a Mormon Transhumanism perspective that appeared in 10apr13 post on Ray Kurzweil’s Accelerating Intelligence blog.

Posted in

79 responses to “In the Beginning was Code (aka ID) [w Addendum3]”

  1. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    ID has just as much validity as Abrahamic religions creation stories, just not as a science.
    I think you might this interesting
    The Power Of Myth
    http://billmoyers.com/content/ep-1-joseph-campbell-and-the-power-of-myth-the-hero%E2%80%99s-adventure-audio/

    Like

  2. Paul Emery Avatar

    Religion is all based on spiritual inspiration which I believe is one of the unique capabilities of human beings. I have never had one of those moments so I subscribe to the view of the songwriter Iris Dement who writes:
    Everybody’s wonderin’ what and where they all came from.
    Everybody’s worryin’ ’bout where they’re gonna go when the whole thing’s done.
    But no one knows for certain and so it’s all the same to me.
    I think I’ll just let the mystery be.

    Like

  3. Gregory Avatar

    Ben got it right this time; well, even a broken analog clock is correct twice a day.
    Private to Paul, it seemed as though your wait was rewarded….

    Like

  4. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    George, great stuff. These kinds of posts are mostly the reason why I keep coming back to read your blog.
    I’m not familiar with Schmidhuber’s work, so I’ll view the video and do some other poking around, and then comment again.
    Thanks much.
    Michael A.

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  5. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Dr. Rebane nails it again with the statement “So the secular humanists’ answer is to simply lump ID as another sneaky way to impose fundamentalist creationism on society, and then dismiss the whole thing out of hand.” Watch out everybody, ID is just a guise for them Bible Thumpers to sneak their agenda into our schools and public squares. Its a slippery slope I tell ya, a slippery slope!! Damn them gawd awful evangelicals and Southern inbreeds.
    Einstein is hailed as a genius, or at least a man with a great mind. Yet it was he who expounded on the laws of thermodymanics that everything goes from a highly organized state to disorder. From energy to less energy. Microbiology proves that a DNA molecule cannot be formed in a closed system such as Darwin believed it could, not to mention the second strand that it needs to bond with. Mathematicians give the chance of order coming out of total randomness at the lowest percentage they can, 1 to the 26th, or in other words, never can happen. Not even with super computers. Infinite number of zeros.
    Perhaps you can name a species that has evolved to an entirely different species, save for a plum mixed with a peach. Still a fruit.
    Must be 20 years now since the Harvard Dean of Mathematics said something like “All mathematical discoveries point to ID, but to teach so would be unpalatable.”

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  6. Wayne Hullett Avatar

    I’ll see your Stephen Meyer’s “Signature in the Cell” and raise you Stuart Kauffman’s “At Home in the Universe”. Who ya gonna believe: The Discovery Institute or The Santa Fe Institute?
    Are we straying from the flock?

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  7. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    My ooopps. Meant to say the probabilities given are 1/100th to the 26th power. That is all they have room for. Super computers can add more zeros.

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  8. George Rebane Avatar

    WayneH 311am – Am a fan of the Santa Fe Institute, ans wasn’t aware that the Discovery Institute was promoting the ‘great cosmic computer’ version of ID. Would you view a code based cosmos more favorably if/when we could create a ‘universe’ with sentient and sapient critters inhabiting it?
    As mentioned in my previous posts on ID, I just have a hard time accepting the indeterminate and ever more complex version that requires turtles all the way down. My simple mind seeks simpler explanations.
    (BTW, what in hell are you doing up at 0311?)

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  9. Gregory Avatar

    “[D]enying ID – as a distinct third alternative to explain what is – the forum of reasonable debate co-locates the secularists with primitives who also deny science in its core principles – Occam and falsifiability”.
    What a bizzare assertion, especially since Occam favors the lack of an invisible man in the sky to make it all work. George, this new version of ID remains as unfalsifiable as the old version of ID, but I await your experimental designs to test this new theory.
    There is no limit to the number of plausible explanations to the great question of Life, the Universe, and Everything, but it’s likely that only one of them is true. The creation of a plausible myth is easy, figuring out what is true is difficult and may be beyond our ability to dream.
    George, having an Invisible Programmer in the sky isn’t a simpler explanation; it just hides the additional complexity in a cloak of magic.

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  10. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Those who believe in a “God”, I am one of them, all are correct in there creation myths. Those metaphorical parables of the old and new testaments along with Qur’an are all ways to sooth the individuals curiosity of the big picture and the sense of belonging. The same is true for all creation stories and the stories of social mores of the day to live by. The idea one belongs to something bigger than themselves is huge defense mechanism of feeling like a single grain of sand on the biggest beach in the universe. Or In other words giving meaning to life instead of not having any real purpose or meaning to our existence.
    ID is unprovable and slaps the basic tenet of science in the face because ID is based in absolutism. My opinion is based on the explanations I have heard by its advocates in interviews and columns.

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  11. Gregory Avatar

    “Or In other words giving meaning to life instead of not having any real purpose or meaning to our existence.”
    What you are describing is an imagined meaning, not a real one. A belief system.
    It doesn’t take a belief in God to believe one belongs to something bigger than oneself… just look at the Unitarians.

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  12. Paul Emery Avatar

    I believe it is human nature to surround ourselves with convenient mythologies that give meaning to our history and future after death.
    Joseph Campbell is much more eloquent about this
    “In the long view of the history of mankind, four essential functions of mythology can be discerned. The first and most distinctive – vitalizing all – is that of eliciting and supporting a sense of awe before the mystery of being.” “The second function of mythology is to render a cosmology, an image of the universe that will support and be supported by this sense of awe before the mystery of the presence and the presence of a mystery.” “A third function of mythology is to support the current social order, to integrate the individual organically with his group;” “The fourth function of mythology is to initiate the individual into the order of realities of his own psyche, guiding him toward his own spiritual enrichment and realization.”

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  13. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Can it not be argued that “guy in the sky” Christianity is a mythological adaptation of ID , certainly matching Joseph Campbell’s four functions of mythology?

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  14. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Greg,
    “What you are describing is an imagined meaning, not a real one. A belief system.”
    Exactly. I am not saying it takes a belief in “God” but rather used it as an example. Many of us who believe in “God” do so because it helps us cope with the big picture. I personally came to except the term “God” after many hours of conversations with people who would consider themselves extremely religious, such as my Christian minister brother in law. I do not accept others symbol of “God” as my own but can accept their symbol and what I consider the higher energy or power. We are speaking about the same source. I believe that “God” has no shape or form but rather just is. It can also be said that God is the shape and form of everything. It resides within us and in everything. When we truly need to seek assistance of the higher power we actually go inward not outward because that is where “God” or whatever we call it is found. Once we truly understand this concept we then realize that we are all one.
    The idea that morality is tied to religion is ludicrous and especially to a specific religion.
    Mtakuye Oyasin

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  15. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 1049am – I think you have Occam turned 180 around. Occam was a Franciscan monk who believed in an ‘asei God’ (q.v. or search RR for more), and posited the simplest necessary and sufficient explanation for the universe as God alone, upon whom EVERYTHING else was contingent.
    It is demonstrably true that no man can think all possible thoughts. Therefore ‘truth’, however it is pursued or communicated, is necessarily circumscribed at any point in our evolution. All we can ever do is cobble together the best explanation within this circumscribed capability. Science does it well by applying Occam’s Razor and falsifiability.
    With regard to simplicity, nothing approaches Occam’s positing of a necessary and sufficient God. Is the existence of God falsifiable? Probably not; no one has been able to do it yet. And science cannot do it because it is expanding knowledge with a methodology and in a direction (i.e. ‘turtles all the way down’) that doesn’t even begin to address the falsifiability of God. So yes, today belief in the existence of God or an Intelligent Designer still comes under faith and not science.
    But in recent time philosophers of science and scientists have made the astounding admission that science cannot cover the entire waterfront of truth – i.e. that there are other (non-scientific) ways of knowing what is. Be that as it may, what Schmidhuber and other scientists have been saying about the stratum of man’s perception of existence is that it appears to be most simply explained as running code. The implications of a Coder then follow quite naturally, and would appear to corroborate Occam’s proposition from the 14th century. But such a terminus – in the sense of encountering our circumscribed ability to think – is not acceptable to all secular humanists, and many/most of the commenters here.
    Let me end by rephrasing my 639am question to WayneH – ‘Would you view a code based cosmos more favorably if/when we could create such a ‘universe’ with sentient and sapient critters inhabiting it?’

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  16. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 137pm – It appears that Christianity doesn’t support the third ‘essential function’. It started out by overturning the social order of Rome, and today it is judged by the powers that be as not supporting the social order of many countries around the world, including that of the United States where it is more strongly proscribed with every passing year.

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  17. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    I think here is another Great Divide moment.
    This is where I oppose the Christian church and especially the proselytization of the man made religion onto other cultures who have their own faith and myths. This is also why I oppose and am extremely offended by your “raghead” and war with Islamists remarks.
    And this is where your mistaken on what I think you mean with the broad statement of secular humanists. Most people don’t know enough about what they believe to accept labels such as secular humanist. Much like you calling me a Marxist, I know to much about Marxism to let that comment just pass. Just because I agree with Rand Paul on the use of drone attacks within the US doesn’t mean I am a supporter of Rand Paul. For some who don’t pay attention other than what is spoon fed by the corporate media they might believe they are now supports Rand P. but don’t realize he is against the civil rights act, SS, Medicare, ect…
    Here is the Great Divide. I will paraphrase the threads go to spiritual guru, Joseph Campbell.
    Those who believe they know the answers don’t know anything. Those who know they don’t know the answers know everything.
    To philosophize about creation is a good exercise but to kill, injure both physically and spiritually, and to try and convert others from their beliefs to our own is one the biggest violations of natural law/ right. It once again shows a authoritarian/ superiority complex. The mystery will never be answered except from within or spiritually because on the physical level the beginning cannot be proven since none of us who are here now were there then, physically.

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  18. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Only in America and in Consrvatarian fantasyland could not having a state sponsored or supported religion or preferring one religion over another or none be characterized as “being more strongly proscribed with every passing year.” The rise of any other religious belief or the growing number of people who identify with no specific religious belief is not an example of being ‘proscribed”; it is proof that our our Constitutional right to freedom of religion and the Establishment Clause is being respected.

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  19. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 808am – I wasn’t aware that this was a discussion of the ills of Christianity, but any talk of some transcendent notion between the polar ideologies very quickly reverts to a few more swipes at Christianity. Christians have given up their ‘Accept Christ or die’ ways. The proselytizing today is of a more gentler kind. However, this is not the way of Islam or certain collectivist religions that still haunt people today. There murder is still part and parcel of the faiths.
    And as usual SteveF’s understanding of my ‘proscribed’ statement is way off the mark, but does underline my point.
    Do either of you have any cogent views on the topic of this post?
    (BTW, ‘raghead’ is the best pejorative I could come up with to describe those Muslims who wantonly murder us and their own in order to satisfy the dictates of their religion. Are there any other terms I could use that would offend you even more? Suggestions please.)

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  20. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    The Christian proselytizing isn’t accompanied by the sword any longer but just as damaging. I oppose those who force Islam onto people as well or LDS, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, or any other organized religion. It isn’t about a specific religion but the forcing of a specific faith onto those who do not seek it.
    Stealing a persons spirituality is one of the most violent acts a person can experience.
    This is the great divide- You believe your faith and myths are superior. Where as I am saying your faith is correct for yourself just as my faith is for me. Neither is superior and has the moral authority to force it onto others.
    As for the raghead remarks. Do you think using terms like raghead are going to increase a chance of peace or exacerbate hatred? You are behaving the exact same way as the extremists on the other side. Dehumanizing and creating a difference when we should be finding the commonalities to bring about tolerance. But that is the problem those who talk of hatred and fear stir the emotions and some how rise to the top of power to perpetuate violence instead of decreasing it. Some because they truly believe and others for other reasons of power and wealth.

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  21. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Hey George, this was not a discussion of Christianity until you injected it into the conversation. You are the one who used the word ‘proscribed’ to describe your chosen faith. Proscribed means: “to condemn or forbid as harmful or unlawful”.
    No one is ‘proscribing’ your religion, even if one believes God is the great coder in the sky. What you object to is that some Americans are Islamic or that more people are rejecting the Christian religion outright. That is not supporting the Constitution; it is directly opposing the rights guaranteed in the first amendment.
    This is the ultimate irony of your overall positions, which Ben identifies as “authoritarianism”. You state that you are a Constitutionalist, and join groups that wave that banner, yet you oppose the basic protections and philosophies underlaying the Constitution.
    I am merely compelled to call bullish*# when I see it!

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  22. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    “Do either of you have any cogent views on the topic of this post?”
    Yes,
    “ID has just as much validity as Abrahamic religions creation stories, just not as a science.” 22 March 2013 at 09:19 AM
    “ID is unprovable and slaps the basic tenet of science in the face because ID is based in absolutism. My opinion is based on the explanations I have heard by its advocates in interviews and columns.” 23 March 2013 at 11:08 AM

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  23. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    George – I’m surprised that Ben and Steve haven’t reported you to the Civil Rights arm of the Justice Dept. The idea of it – trying to “impose” your views on the struggling free thinkers out there. Don’t you know that they have “the answer”?
    They even were so kind as to quote that BS artist J Campbell. He has the “the answer”. And it is:
    “Those who believe they know the answers don’t know anything. Those who know they don’t know the answers know everything.”
    Yes indeed, that is the answer!
    Anyway, thanks for the post. Jürgen Schmidhuber is one interesting fellow. The idea of everything just existing as a kind of ‘computer’ code is not new to me, but he certainly has some good thought on the matter. I think the fault line here is the idea that it’s all just happenstance vs some kind of overarching reason to it all.
    The irony is that one side is frightened that the other side is actually true and the other side is frightened of what the believers of the other side will do under the influence of that belief. The irony is that it is true for both sides of the divide!
    Watch out for those JWs – they might ‘impose’ their beliefs on you!

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  24. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Scott, not sure what blog you are reading but I did not quote Joseph Campbell, never used the word “impose” and never implied that George should not be able to say whatever he damn well pleases. Also never claimed to have the answer for anyone. Never commented negatively in any way about Jürgen Schmidhuber, as a follower of AI, I find his work interesting.
    Merely pointed out that there is no ‘proscribe[ing]” going on against Christianity. It should get the same treatment that Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster does.

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  25. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Scott,
    I think George puts out posts so people comment on them and even better yet, disagree. Joseph Campbell as BS, he spent 60 years of his life studying religion and cultures. A person doesn’t have to agree with him but to claim he is spreading bs is laughable.
    Joseph Campbell
    http://www.folkstory.com/campbell/scholars_life.html

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  26. Fuzz Avatar
    Fuzz

    “The idea that morality is tied to religion is ludicrous and especially to a specific religion.”
    – Mtakuye Oyasin
    Ben: You’re in a gang neighborhood, late at night, in a dark dead-end alley. Suddenly, you look up and see six big guys heading straight for you from the other end. They don’t appear to be smiling and there’s no way of escape. You’re starting to shiver with fear and brace yourself against the wall.
    Question: would it make any difference to you if you found out they had just come from a Bible study?

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  27. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Fuzz,
    What does that have to do with anything? We are talking spirituality and the beginning of time. If they came from bible study maybe they are carrying pamphlets.
    Generally in gang neighborhoods unless I am flashing other signs or totally disrespecting the area nobody will have a problem with me. I grew up hanging out in gang neighborhoods and know how they operate for the most part. Your hypothetical oozes of somebody who doesn’t know what they are talking about.
    But I will play your game. Lets say the beat the crap out of me and take my $20 and wallet. Since they committed a crime I would report it to the government also known as the police. What is your point? That religion doesn’t really matter? I agree but religion helps billions of people cope with the big questions and that is a good thing. Religion also is the biggest tool for war and that is a bad thing. The yin and the yang create a balance I guess. I would love to see it become a bit unbalanced towards the peaceful side in a way it has over the last two centuries.

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  28. George Rebane Avatar

    Maybe I’m missing it, but I haven’t heard much about the notion that the cosmos is a running program. It’s implication for ID is a secondary consideration or a corollary. ID did not motivate the apology for a code based universe.
    Considering the centrality of Christianity in American history, and its current treatment by government, the media, and today’s liberal intellectuals has given rise to the proposition that Christianity is being proscribed today in our land. I agree with that proposition and continue to be very critical of the Christian response.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2013/03/the-new-pope-and-christianitys-challenge.html

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  29. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    The cosmos is a running program except for one creature or maybe that is part of the program. Is there a higher power moving pieces around in the program or actually comprehended it before hand, I doubt it.

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  30. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 928pm – Again I ask, how would your answer be impacted if/when we can create computed universes?

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  31. Fuzz Avatar
    Fuzz

    Ben, I was curious why you had included that quote in one of your previous responses and was responding to it. I think Oyasin’s quote is “ludicrous”. You certainly don’t need to believe in God to live a “moral” life, but in a naturalistic/materialistic world, an “amoral” world, there is no rational argument as to why I “ought” to live a “moral” life. If it’s all time plus matter plus chance then I’m just “dancing to my DNA” as Dawkins might put it. If I found out those boys had just come from a Bible study, it would provide some relief to me because I have some experience there and would expect it to reflect in their behavior. My sense of morality, imperfect as it is, is informed by my belief in God.
    I didn’t mean to get you off track from the original subject.

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  32. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Ben – A BS artist can say and think a lot of true things, but overall I think he’s made the worst mistake of all BS artists: Don’t BS yourself. Since when does 60 years of doing anything automatically make you worthy of being listened to? I didn’t say he was a con artist, just a very good BSer. I have listened to him on Charlie Rose and watched the shows on PBS. He makes a lot of very bland and obvious statements of fact that most people know anyway. He does it all in a very round about way that is supposed to make you think he is a very deep thinker. I’m sure he is quite serious about what he says, but he’s broken the first rule. He strikes me as the kind of person who has ‘studied’ love for 60 years and never fallen in love himself. The statement attributed to him actually condemns him.
    Loved Steve’s fabrication: “…yet you oppose the basic protections and philosophies underlaying the Constitution.”
    Care to actually attempt any backup to that ridiculous statement?
    And yes, Steve – Christianity is under attack in this country and elsewhere in the world.

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  33. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    The statement “There are no absolutes” is an absolute statement.
    What was before time? What was before the black hole? What was before matter? Did matter originate out of emptiness and become? What was before space and energy? Did our highly complex and very very harmonious universe arise out of nothingness and emptiness? Did nothingness form into matter or did matter replicate itself from non matter? These are the questions that our finite minds grapple when looking at the infinite.
    All we can do is observe the software but no one can find the mainframe. The Stephen Hawkins dilemma if you will.
    Oh, there are theories about the universes expanding at increasing velocity and time slowing down which creates more questions than answers. Still, where is the code?
    Reason alone points to possibility of a beginning and a Beginner before time and space.
    There are 2 things I believe, nay, 3 things:
    1) there is a God, a Divine Power, and Intelligent Designer.
    2) that intelligent designer ain’t me
    3) Man wants to create God into his own image

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  34. Gregory Avatar

    “I think you have Occam turned 180 around. Occam was a Franciscan monk who believed in an ‘asei God’ (q.v. or search RR for more), and posited the simplest necessary and sufficient explanation for the universe as God alone, upon whom EVERYTHING else was contingent.” -George
    Of course I knew of Occam’s religion and intent, however, he made the same error you do, not counting the hidden complexity in the explanation he found to be the simplest. Occam’s Razor, as a philosophic tool, states (by one account) “that among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected”. Assuming a whole ‘nother universe of unknowables designing this universe is not the simplest solution.
    “Maybe I’m missing it, but I haven’t heard much about the notion that the cosmos is a running program.”
    I’ve heard worse. If it helps you sleep better at night and fits your preconceptions, enjoy the concept.

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  35. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Scott,
    You are amazing. Joseph and Jean Erdman Campbell were married in 1938 until he died in 1987. You obviously know nothing about him or his work by the comments you’re making. What he came to realize or conclude from his studies long ago was to follow your bliss, what you love and gives you joy. He did that his entire life and spoke of it often.
    I will paraphrase Campbell once again. This time directly aimed at you Scott.
    Those who believe they know the answers don’t know anything. Those who know they don’t know the answers know everything.

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  36. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    By computed universes what are you talking about? Actual physical universes? Here is the problem with that, those universes were created within the existing universe we know occupy. So the bigger question becomes, how big is Cosmos? Is our universe alone or are we just one in a series of universes? The answer will always be, we don’t know. To seek the ultimate answer is a fruitless venture but just as it is with everything in life the journey is the answer and the end goal was just something that got us to take the journey to begin with.

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  37. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Joseph and Jean Erdman Campbell were married in 1938 until he died in 1987
    Ben – what has that got to do with anything? I know a lot about him.
    Start with this: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/joseph_campbell.html
    “follow your bliss..” Great stuff for non-thinkers. What if my bliss is blowing folks apart with a 12 gauge? Read his quotes. Some are just rip offs from other religions, some are just false. Some are so stupid and vile, I can’t believe anyone would pay him a dime for speaking. Most are just teenager air-head non-thinking BS. Just keep paraphrasing him, Ben. Maybe one day you’ll examine that statement. He’s saying that he knows the answer and the answer is that if you know the answer, you don’t know anything. It’s the kind of statement I would expect from someone who has spent a life of self indulgent navel gazing with little else of substance to show for it. He was free to express himself and you are free to think he is wonderful.
    As for me, I’ll read up on folks like Jürgen Schmidhuber to see what they are up to. I may not agree with everything he says automatically, but he brings up great ideas to chew on and compare with known reality.
    Best quote from J Campbell – “Find a place inside where there’s joy, and the joy will burn out the pain.”
    Wow – great advice! How many millions of drug addicts are going with that one?
    Sorry – if there is ‘pain’, there is a problem and a person with that pain needs to meet the problem head on and solve it or deal with it. That, of course, would mean finding a knowable answer and we know what the good J Campbell thinks about that!

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  38. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Oh – I missed Ben at 9:36 “The answer will always be, we don’t know.” Are you sure of that, Ben? Is that science or is that your religious belief?

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  39. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Joseph Campbell wrote
    “A third function of mythology is to support the current social order, to integrate the individual organically with his group;”
    You responded:
    “It appears that Christianity doesn’t support the third ‘essential function’. It started out by overturning the social order of Rome, and today it is judged by the powers that be as not supporting the social order of many countries around the world, including that of the United States where it is more strongly proscribed with every passing year.”
    Who are the “powers that be” that you refer to? 80% of Americans describe themselves as Christians so doesn’t that qualify it as the dominant mythology? I’m fascinated by your observation on this and need a little more to fill in the dots.

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  40. Gregory Avatar

    “Here is the problem with that, those universes were created within the existing universe we know occupy.”
    No Ben, each additional universe just has to be built at 90 degrees to Reality. Quite easily done, assuming you don’t need to see it.

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  41. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Scott,
    The essence of Campbell’s message is we all have the answer and our own path to it. That is what he calls, bliss. Follow your bliss and the answers will be known. We continually look outside for answers when the answer comes from within.
    Bliss- Your sacred space where you can find yourself again and again

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  42. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    A computer is programmed to enact specific routines to accomplish a task. Would it not be true then, if the universe were a computer, then there is no free will and our lives are just the predetermined result of a proscribed routine? I think a better way to look at it is that our universe and all that is in it is just a part of a larger body or being, like cells are to living things. Selfish human behavior could be considered a cancer seeking to consume the body for the sake of the cell. Greed is a cancer, seeking to destroy the fabric of the planet for the gratification of the self.

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  43. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1213pm – Please don’t confuse the 80% checking the ‘Christian box’ with Christians. And most certainly don’t confuse that cohort with the powers that be. For identifying the latter, I’d refer you to the extensive dissertations from BenE and JoeK on the subject that populate these comment streams.

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  44. Paul Emery Avatar

    That was not much help George. I’m interested in your view about what the “powers that be” are. You are the one who used that term in response to my query and saying to refer to Ben and Joe’s view makes no sense. This is a fascinating topic and deserves more thought. If Christianity isn’t the prevailing spiritual mythology in this country than what is?
    Ben
    My capsule of Campbell’s work didn’t include the topic of bliss. I tried to limit it to the question as to whether religions are necessary mythologies to serve what seem to be essential human needs.

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  45. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 333pm – your calling Christianity the “prevailing spiritual mythology” denigrates this conversation and highlights the disrespect that Christianity engenders today. A ‘mythology’ is a narrative known/held to be untrue by those who use the label. Such conversations don’t go far with those for whom Christianity represents a core belief.
    Apparently Campbell does not understand that no mythology serves an essential human need to the subject who does not view the narrative as mythology – perhaps you don’t either.
    Re ‘powers that be’ – I have already made myself clear on the topic through my posts on Brian Kaplan’s ‘Myth of the Rational Voter’. Our electorate is now beyond the boundaries of dumbth and/or dismissive interest in the affairs of our republic. Until new evidence comes in, the powers that be are those who can bamboozle the electorate to remain as compliant supporters of their ideology. To date that appears hands down to be the money (and their chorus) behind promoting our collectivist (ergo autocratic) future. I am a member of the chorus promoting liberty, small government, and open markets.
    I don’t know who the Left’s monied interests are beyond the usual Soros, Buffett, union bosses, et al. Neither do I know the Right’s monied interests beyond the Koch brothers et al. But I do know that large corporations (too big to fail) are not my ideological fellow travelers. But all this is a side thread to the topic of my post.

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  46. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    The Code: I suppose you have to have faith to believe in The Code. Its unseen, just as Christianity and the other major religions believe in an Unseen God. There are many scientific discoveries and theories that folks strongly believe as fact, yet many are unseen. Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive.
    Some theologians and “men of the cloth” labor under the gross misconception that if they could prove the existence of God, then the hordes will flock to the pews. Nothing could be further from the truth. A gross misunderstanding of human nature.
    If belief in God or a Higher Power or the Creator Beyond Time and Space was based solely on one’s intellect, then those with diminished capacity could never believe or “come to the Life”. If it was left up to finite minds ability to comprehend and apprehend the Infinite, then only the ones with highly advanced intelligence among us would be “enlightened”.
    Thus belief in ID does require faith, just as I believe day will follow night or those that believe the Code will be uncovered through scientific discovery and pure knowledge and observation of the unseen. We all take the leap of faith in various ways to explain things we currently don’t have the answer for. One might call it their belief system.
    Some have faith that someday the “missing link” will be found. Some have their faith in ID reinforced by observing the complexities and very very orderly and harmonious properties of the tiniest objects to the vast expansive well past our minute solar system. Reason comes into play. Like the old saying “God gave us brains to use”.

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  47. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    One of the accepted definitions (Webster) of mythology is
    “The myths dealing with the gods, demigods, and legendary heroes of a particular people”
    I would use the descriptive “spiritual mythology” equally for any religion. If you read carefully I said “prevailing spiritual mythology” I could then say something like “minority (in this country) spiritual mythology’s such as Native American, Buddist, Moslem…only comprise in their totality of 20% at the most of the population.”
    It’s quite consistent that a “core belief” may be viewed by others as embracing mythology. The Old Testament for example is a remarkable collection of stories that totally qualify as mythology I’m sure even by you. Did Noah actually pack up family units of all living creatures in his boat and wait out the big storm for example. It may a historical allegory and in that it has value but it’s packaged as a myth as is Samson, Adam and Eve etc. Was the world created in seven days? Some Christians (lots of them) really believe that literally. The St James New Testament is a politically correct collection of stories years after of the life of Christ that went through a huge vetting process with the “powers that be” before it was published and declared to be sacred and the word of God.
    The event of Christ is historically massive. I recommend “The Passion of the Western Mind” by Richard Tarnus for an overview of the rise of Christianity as a philosophy not as a religion.
    Tarnas outlines the intellectual-cultural development of the modern world view from its origins in Greek and Judaeo-Christian mythologies.
    http://www.christianbook.com/the-passion-of-western-mind/richard-tarnas/9780345368096/pd/68096
    Most disturbing to me, however, is your questioning the legitimacy of many of those who “checked the box” declaring themselves Christians in the estimation that 80% of Americans describe themselves as Christian. In Gods name what gives you the ability to make judgement that questions their choice. Can you give a little insight into your process of judgement to make the determination of who is a Christian and who is not?
    25 March 2013 at 03:06 PM
    “- Please don’t confuse the 80% checking the ‘Christian box’ with Christian”

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  48. Paul Emery Avatar

    That’s powerful stuff Ben. Very influential in it’s day. I may be freely borrowing from my recollections of those interviews. Discussing the mythology of Christianity or any other religion should not be regarded as derogatory. But then there’s Salman Rushdie who will never be able to get out of his foxhole.

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