Rebane's Ruminations
March 2013
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“… invoking an infinity of unseen universes to
explain the unusual features we see in this one is just as ad hoc as invoking
an unseen Creator.”, Paul Davies, physicist

George Rebane
 
ComputedUniverseOn these pages I have long advocated intelligent design (ID) as the most compelling idea that unifies science and certain philosophies/religions (here).  A strong supportive argument for ID has been the idea that our universe is really a massive running program, that all that we are and perceive is the result of an ongoing cosmic computation.  Physicists have posited this as a very plausible explanation of how things work when they look at matter, energy, and even time at the smallest of scales.

A stumbling block for the universe as a running program has been that no one was able to grapple with the configuration of such a humungus piece of code that could compute an entire universe right down to the interaction of the most basic pieces of what is called the Standard Model (which recently received additional credibility with the observation of the Higgs particle in the CERN super collider in Geneva).  However, it now looks like this difficulty has also been overcome with the discovery of a very simple and short piece of code that can compute this and all logical universes.

Jürgen Schmidhuber introduced a simple ten-line code snippet to TEDx audiences recently that indeed can optimally compute the universe.  He opened with –

“I will talk about the simplest explanation of the universe. The universe is following strange rules. Einstein’s relativity. Planck’s quantum physics. But the universe may be even stranger than you think. And even simpler than you think.”  (the rest of the transcript and video is here)

This topic is difficult for secular humanists to consider primarily because it avoids the spot creation explanation of religious fundamentalists, explains all that science has observed, and yet allows for a “Great Programmer”, Intelligent Designer, or, if you will, God.  So the secular humanists’ answer is to simply lump ID as another sneaky way to impose fundamentalist creationism on society, and then dismiss the whole thing out of hand.  Next case please.


Today it looks like denying ID – as a distinct third alternative to explain what is – the forum of reasonable debate co-locates the secularists with primitives who also deny science in its core principles – Occam and falsifiability.

[Addendum] I received the following as a comment from Dr Wayne Hullett, who had trouble getting TypePad to accept it as such.  Hullett’s cogent argument disputes my above proposition regarding the necessity for a Great Programmer, and expands it in a ‘scentless direction’ by re-introducing the turtles all the way up thesis which has also been covered in these pages.  I have therefore included his comment (italicized) as an appropriate addendum to this post, and will offer my response later.

Re George 0639:  The Discovery Institute’s stated purpose (http://www.discovery.org/about.php) is the advocacy and reinvigoration of theistic principles and everything that the ID crowd does there, including Meyer, Behe and Dembski has that agenda in mind.  It is from that mindset that Meyer’s “insufficient probabilistic resources” argument flows.

Kauffman, while at the Santa Fe Institute, in “At Home in the Universe”, gives convincing arguments that life emerges almost certainly from natural processes, and there has been recent experimental support for his ideas.  Like us, Kauffman is just trying to understand how things work and how they got to be the way they are, while Meyer et al have a theistic agenda to advance.  DI’s Wedge Strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy) as well as their political actions lead me to believe that they are using ID as a trojan horse to get Creationism taught in schools.

I do not rule out the possibility that our universe is a simulation, and would not be surprised or alarmed to find out that that is the case.  But to think that some “great programmer” is intervening to goose the system toward some preferred path is to assume the existence of said GP.  That is just belief without evidence, i.e. religion.  And, according to Kauffman, there is no necessity for such intervention.

I do not see how the invocation of the good Sir William makes the simulated universe hypothesis the simplest explanation of the observed data.  If we are simulated, then there must exist a substrate in which the “great computer” exists (a super universe?), and all the questions that we have about our origins and how our universe works simply become the same questions about the super universe.  (Is there a super multiverse? Is the super universe itself simulated?  Is it computers all the way up?)  in addition, there are then the questions about the details of the Great Computer and the program it is running.  Where is the simplification? Yes, we are groping in the dark now, with various unpalatable theories like multiverses proposed as possible explanations, but if we continue using scientific principles, ie not using the God hypothesis, I think we will eventually emerge from the woods into the (possibly simulated) light.  The God hypothesis is always a temptation, especially for those who give up too early and invoke it.

I am all for open, evidence-based scientific enquiry, but we need to be aware when some group is using conclusion-based reasoning to advance it’s own unsubstantiated belief system, especially when its ultimate end is totalitarianism.
[Addendum] I received the following as a comment from Dr Wayne Hullett, who had trouble getting TypePad to accept it as such.  Hullett’s cogent argument disputes my above argument regarding the necessity for a Great Programmer, and expands is in a ‘scentless direction’ by re-introducing the turtles all the way up thesis which I have covered in these pages.  I have therefore included his comment (italicized) as an appropriate addendum to this post.

Re George 0639:  The Discovery Institute’s stated purpose (http://www.discovery.org/about.php) is the advocacy and reinvigoration of theistic principles and everything that the ID crowd does there, including Meyer, Behe and Dembski has that agenda in mind.  It is from that mindset that Meyer’s “insufficient probabilistic resources” argument flows.

Kauffman, while at the Santa Fe Institute, in “At Home in the Universe”, gives convincing arguments that life emerges almost certainly from natural processes, and there has been recent experimental support for his ideas.  Like us, Kauffman is just trying to understand how things work and how they got to be the way they are, while Meyer et al have a theistic agenda to advance.  DI’s Wedge Strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy) as well as their political actions lead me to believe that they are using ID as a trojan horse to get Creationism taught in schools.

I do not rule out the possibility that our universe is a simulation, and would not be surprised or alarmed to find out that that is the case.  But to think that some “great programmer” is intervening to goose the system toward some preferred path is to assume the existence of said GP.  That is just belief without evidence, i.e. religion.  And, according to Kauffman, there is no necessity for such intervention.

I do not see how the invocation of the good Sir William makes the simulated universe hypothesis the simplest explanation of the observed data.  If we are simulated, then there must exist a substrate in which the “great computer” exists (a super universe?), and all the questions that we have about our origins and how our universe works simply become the same questions about the super universe.  (Is there a super multiverse? Is the super universe itself simulated?  Is it computers all the way up?)  in addition, there are then the questions about the details of the Great Computer and the program it is running.  Where is the simplification? Yes, we are groping in the dark now, with various unpalatable theories like multiverses proposed as possible explanations, but if we continue using scientific principles, ie not using the God hypothesis, I think we will eventually emerge from the woods into the (possibly simulated) light.  The God hypothesis is always a temptation, especially for those who give up too early and invoke it.

I am all for open, evidence-based scientific enquiry, but we need to be aware when some group is using conclusion-based reasoning to advance it’s own unsubstantiated belief system, especially when its ultimate end is totalitarianism.

[Addendum2]  With apologies for not providing a longer and more unified response to the above addendum by Dr Hullett, I invite extending the discussion of its points by offering a short compendium of propositions that I hold to be true.

1.    Man cannot yet (ever?) think all possible thoughts.  And all men cannot even think all thoughts that are possible to think today.  I cannot think all possible thoughts that are thought today.
2.    Being thought-limited gives rise to a ‘belief horizon’ – where the What and How end and meet the teleological Why.  The belief horizon is dynamic, and recedes as our knowledge increases.  Beyond the belief horizon resides the mystery of the Why.  We seem to be hardwired to ask that question as we are to supply an answer.
3.    Positing the mystery of a Great Programmer as part of that horizon is a simplification beyond that offered by such complexifications as a multiverse of infinite numbered universes.  Most certainly Occam saw the GP as a simplifica
tion without even invoking the notion of a belief horizon.
4.    Perhaps we don’t agree (or know?) how to ascribe simplicity to notions considered in such conversations.  I am open to an operational definition of simplicity that allows a more objective comparison than is evinced in the comments to date.
5.    What is a theory but a cohesive framework that explains past observations/experiences, and that is also useful for reliable predictions of future events.  Such future events may include additional discoveries about/from the past, in addition to new experiments fashioned specifically to test the power (comprehensive range) of the theory.  Failing such predictions, the theory may be weakened or completely falsified.
6.    Given #1, a Theory of Everything is a display of maximum hubris by today’s science.  Hypothesizing the encompass of all existence most certainly dismisses the teleology of the universe, and with it the notion of a belief horizon.
7.    In my own case, I am a Bayesian with a non-monotonic belief system or credo. Therefore all of my beliefs are falsifiable (in the sense that there may yet be arguments that will make me change my mind), and as simple as I can make them.
8.    Yes, it could be computers (turtles) all the way up instead.  I can’t rule that out, but my mind boggles at the concept.  Maybe as I learn more, my mind will not boggle prematurely.

[Addendum3]  Here’s a report and a comment stream that relates to ID from a Mormon Transhumanism perspective that appeared in 10apr13 post on Ray Kurzweil’s Accelerating Intelligence blog.

Posted in

79 responses to “In the Beginning was Code (aka ID) [w Addendum3]”

  1. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 712pm – You misunderstand me. I take no exception to your description of ‘spiritual myths’ as they are held by non-believers. But once you are a believer in a certain narrative of Man’s origins and transcendence, then conversation about your beliefs is not possible with someone who at the outset labels you as a primitive with a dysfunctional belief system. The approach has to be different, perhaps one of questioning the basis of the other’s faith. (I have already published many posts on the basis for my faith.)
    And your being astounded – and in God’s name no less – at my “ability” to pass judgments is more than a bit silly. I have the ability to make judgments about anything I care to do so – that, after all, is what RR is about. You may not agree with my judgments and take them to task, but that in no way diminishes my ability and propensity to render such judgments, no matter what proportion of people are involved on one or another side of an issue (e.g. I constantly remind RR readers that most voters are devoid of the information required to cast a reasonable vote. Moreover, I also judge that most voters could not process the required information if it were spelled out for them.)
    So yes, I believe that a good fraction, perhaps even half, of the nation’s declared Christians hold to that label out of family tradition, and not because they accept (or even know) the specific tenets of any Christian denomination. I believe that the same holds for Jews, Muslims (God willing), Hindus, ….

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  2. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    We are actually closer than usual on this but we’ll have to take it up tomorrow. However passing judgements on another spiritual values is stinky business unless you’re St Peter at the Golden Gate directing traffic up or down. But I’m venturing into mythology so that’s it for me tonight.
    You missed the irony of “in Gods name”. If Christianity is the final way I hope God grades on the curve. I might have a chance.

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  3. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Paul and George,
    I think we are talking right past each other on this one. Campbell isn’t saying Christianity is wrong. What he is explaining is how and why we need myths to help us through life. We believe in our faith as being the real or true one, when in fact they all are. I don’t know of him saying this but my guess he did or he would have agreed. Only forcing our belief systems onto those who do not seek it is wrong. We all have our personal relationship with what ever we want to call it and to some people that relationship is solely based in this life on earth. They are correct in believing so. This is where religion turns into a negative and why I do not subscribe to any formal organized religion. I was raised Catholic more than anything else but never was forced into believing it was the only way, which has turned out to be the best spiritual gift my parents ever gave me. My wife is very Christian and we chose to raise our kids with Christianity as an option and introduced them to the church but didn’t force them into attending. We attend periodically and on major holidays. I prefer the local Quaker or Unitarian services. What we did do in abundance is show them the teachings of Christ through our actions along with the moral actions of all compassionate caring people who walked or are walking this earth.

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  4. Paul Emery Avatar

    Ben
    I think what he says is that we are inspired by myths and it’s human nature to let that happen. What bothers me is when myths are franchised and organized as religions (which have nothing to do with spiritual inspiration or religion as a personal experience and discovery)
    A great example are the statues of Greece where the myths of the gods were carved into huge statues and incorporated into architecture to remind people that the Gods were watching. Also look at the Catholic Churches with their cathedrals with stained glass and echos from the pulpit that made their preachers sound and look like gods to their unsuspecting prey. The native peoples of South America were overwhelmed for example and thought God was in the room when indeed it was nothing but a big techno show of the day. So they peed their pants and became Catholics abandoning their own mythologies that were centuries old.
    George himself noted the rock shows of modern Mega Mall Churches and how they are overwhelming the more subtle “chapel in the valley” churches that served the cultures of the day.

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  5. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    “To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. To a man with a computer, everything looks like a computation. To a man with a baseball glove, everything looks like paradise.”
    Unattributed, UNKNOWN

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  6. George Rebane Avatar

    Gentlemen – I do believe the confusion here between myth and religion is that to the faithful his religion represents reality. That same faithful person can also celebrate the myths of his culture, and understand that they are indeed myths. And all the while another onlooker will categorize both the religion and the myth of the believer as myths, and consequently assign the believer to the class of the deluded.
    I am here using religion to describe that part of a person’s belief in reality that is not subject to falsification – i.e. it may satisfy Occam, but the faithful will state something like, ‘There’s nothing you can say that will make me change my mind about Christ’s incarnation.’
    In my own case, I am a Bayesian with a non-monotonic belief system or credo. Therefore all of my beliefs are falsifiable (in the sense that there may yet be arguments that will make me change my mind), and as simple as I can (subjectively) make them. More on that later.

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  7. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    I don’t think there is confusion but rather talking past each other. The myths are the rituals and metaphors put forward by a specific religion. I know that could be offensive to those true believers out there but that is what the concept Campbell is putting forward. Through the myths, metaphors, and rituals is how a specific religion/ belief system gets us to believe. They aren’t wrong but they belong to their group or sect. What I find interesting is the lack of ability for true believers to be OK with this concept. It shows how powerful myth can be and why billions of people over time have been murdered in the name of a specific sect.

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  8. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    I have spent years bashing organized religion vs spirituality. “Vain traditions” as Paul wrote. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives Life as Jesus said. But I have come to believe that one can find his spiritual way even in the most organized formatted service that is deader than a door nail. Seek and you will find. My bashing days are over. To each his own.
    If you want to find a myth, try believing Homer wrote the Iliad. First copy appeared a few hundred years after his death. Second copy was found about a thousand years later. 2nd “original” copy is different from the first. So, prove to me Homer even wrote the darn thing, yet we all accept the “fact” that he did. Heck, is Homer himself just another myth? Hope you see my point.
    For centuries there was no shred of proof that King David even existed. No old piece of pottery bearing his name…no nothing…until less that a couple of decades ago some diggers found an Assyrian plaque thing that talked about their great victory over David. Tell me, did David even exist or was that all just a myth or a “Zionist Conspiracy”. The story of the boy David slaying the giant Goliath remains one of my favorites.
    You can’t prove to me the sun will rise tomorrow. “Tomorrow never comes” as the saying goes. We deal with faith, reason and probabilities in almost every aspect in our lives. In fact the Book of Proverbs literally means the Book of Probabilities, but I digress once again.
    I have zero problem believing in ID, once I remove any contempt to the idea. Can’t argue with a mind closed shut like a steel trap, nor learn anything. Sure, some have a big problem with a living personal God in 2013. Most feel more comfortable with a God that started the whole ball of wax and then went on to other things after setting the Code in place. Just keep the big guy upstairs far, far, faraway. Whatever.
    “There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
    –HERBERT SPENCER

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  9. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 841am – You may be right, we are doing the best we can, but still talking past each other. You are citing Campbell as the source of ground truth in your world. No religion I know of states to the faithful that its core beliefs/truths are delivered via a myth – metaphors yes, rituals yes, but myths, emphatically NO. You will continue to be ‘interested’ because true believers will not accept that a myth was used to ‘get them to believe’.
    Today it would be more callous and extremely disrespectful to Muslim terrorists blowing themselves up to tell them that they are sacrificing their lives on the basis of a myth. Moreover, it would fundamentally misunderstand their worldview and the structure of their cosmos.

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  10. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    How can any religious belief system be valid if it is exclusionary? By this I mean that some religions are exclusive, ie. if you don’t believe in this particular religion you are wrong and doomed to hell or some other similar fate. In other words if my parents taught me in the Islamic faith, a Christian or a Buddist would be considered an infidel just as a Jehovah’s Witness might consider a Methodist an infidel. I have seen signs on the side of the road stating that if you go to church on any day but Sunday, you are doing the devil’s work.
    There is a huge difference between religion and spirituality. The former is about crowd control and the latter is about levels of awareness. Crowd control comes from the outside. It is, in a sense, forced on people through culture in order to make them more pliable by those ubiquitous powers that be. The Inquisition serves as an extreme example of power and ignorance used to create subservient populations who did and believed as the clergy said or face the consequences. Present day fundamentalist religions still function in much the same way. Awareness comes from individual introspection and cannot be handed out like a crust of bread. Another person cannot make you aware of the universe, you have to do that yourself. Religion is a belief, awareness is knowledge.

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  11. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    No George I am using Campbell as a reference or a source because it is easy to look him up and follow what he is talking about. My belief system isn’t based on Campbell’s ideas but do follow in many areas. My belief system comes from those indigenous cultures that didn’t practice imperialism. Cultures that figured out how to live a sustainable life while living in prosperity. I lean more towards Lakota or Hopi but it could literally be dozens of different indigenous cultures around the world and their belief systems, which were based on myths.
    http://www.indianlegend.com/lakota/lakota_001.htm
    “No religion I know of states to the faithful that its core beliefs/truths are delivered via a myth – metaphors yes, rituals yes, but myths, emphatically NO.”
    Despite your emphatically “NO” it doesn’t change that it is a “Yes”. Just because a person doesn’t want to believe they will die someday doesn’t mean it isn’t going to happen.
    As for the Muslims that is what is so tragic of their deeds. Killing innocent people before they are killed by others with the same kind of dedication to their religion or myths. Much like Oliver Cromwell with his murderous slaughter of the Irish.

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  12. n Avatar
    n

    “My belief system comes from those indigenous cultures that didn’t practice imperialism…… I lean more towards Lakota…”
    LOL.

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  13. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    “My belief system comes from those indigenous cultures that didn’t practice imperialism…… I lean more towards Lakota…”
    LOL.
    Why is that funny?

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  14. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    J K
    I have come to know those who obtain true faith have no qualms with those who question it. They are secure in their beliefs and their is no need to try and defend it. No matter what pressure from the outside is it doesn’t shake their beliefs. I have family members that are like this and like to think I share this quality to be able to connect our two faiths as in being one in the same when we are talking the big picture. In Campbell’s terms, they don’t get stuck on the metaphor. I forget who said it but “a faith that can’t withstand questions isn’t that strong of a faith.”

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  15. George Rebane Avatar

    Small indigenous cultures could not practice imperialism for fear of being wiped out. Their cultural traits included a philosophy of patience and tolerance. I haven’t found any large indigenous cultures that did not practice imperialism. Their cultures also taught their primacy among the peoples of the earth. Now if we could only agree on what an indigenous culture is.

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  16. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    The type of imperialism (transcontinental) I am talking about didn’t exist in North American indigenous cultures due to what you mentioned, the lack of size of the bands or groups. Whole nations could have large numbers but most were broken into subgroups that didn’t grow larger than a couple hundred people. Were there fights over food and water sources, of course but not genocidal warfare. That was brought by Europeans.
    Indigenous Definition plus more
    http://www.iwgia.org/culture-and-identity/identification-of-indigenous-peoples

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  17. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 430pm – Interesting definition. One by which I am an indigenous person as are the Russians, the Swedes, the Norwegians, the Finns, the Germans, the French, the Danes,… .
    And is there any evidence that American Indians did not engage in genocidal warfare. The Incas and Aztecs most certainly wiped out many neighboring bands as they grew their lands and power. What makes us think that over the centuries smaller bands in what is now the US did not do the same.

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  18. L Avatar
    L

    Genocide? Ask a Hopi about the Navajo. L

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  19. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    If you want to continue this conversation into indigenous North American culture I will but if we do we must start with the basics. First the differences between nomadic hunter/ gatherer vs agriculture. The different sizes and philosophies between these two makes a big difference in how they interacted or avoided each other.
    As for the definition there are a number of place we can get one from and I don’t think anyone of them will every completely cover or make all people happy. Here is another one.
    “Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing on those territories, or parts of them. They form at present non-dominant sectors of society and are determined to preserve, develop and transmit to future generations their ancestral territories, and their ethnic identity, as the basis of their continued existence as peoples, in accordance with their own cultural patterns, social institutions and legal system.”

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  20. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 256pm – Got it. I was wondering when the ‘victim’ dimension was going to be brought into the definition. I know the direction that this conversation will now take with the definitions you have established, and don’t wish to go around that barn again.
    But let me leave you a bit enraged in the process. I don’t believe that any ‘indigenous people’ have any extraordinary right to their geography or sovereignty. If a mightier society of humans can take it from them or include them in their already established empire, then so be it. In the end, humanity as a species benefits from such survival of the most evolved in their technology, arts and letters, science, etc. The situation is different when a less developed or peer society becomes rapacious and attacks a neighbor (Germany and the USSR attacking Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, … in 1939). I hope you understand the principle I am endorsing here.
    As further examples, the American Indians deserved to lose their lands and sovereignty to the colonizing Europeans. In the same light, the Finno-Ugric tribes (Ests/Estonians and Finns) deserved to lose their lands and sovereignty in the 13th century to the German Knights Templar that led to their colonization by the more developed countries of Europe. And so it has gone since ages immemorial.

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  21. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    Not enraged and you didn’t disappoint me with your position. I have grown accustom to your authoritarian anti-freedom positions. The Northern American Natives or indigenous peoples were the freest cultures on the planet and you support the subjugation and theft of their ability to pursue their natural rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness along with access to property. The more I read Rebane Ruminations the more I see projection in your opinions.
    You know where the founders got the hope that a free self determined style government could exist? The indigenous Native American cultures that preceded the oppressive criminal colonists by thousands of years. Before that it was all theory and philosophy of the enlightenment and some crazy progressive greeks who tried direct democracy for a nation. My guess that took some time to allow everyone to speak.
    Benjamin Franklin in 1751
    “It would be a very strange thing if Six Nations of ignorant savages should be capable of forming a scheme for such a union, and be able to execute it in such a manner, as that it has subsisted for ages, and appear indissoluble; and yet that a like union should be impracticable for ten or a dozen English colonies, to whom it is more necessary and must be more advantageous, and whom cannot be supposed to want an equal understanding of their interests.”

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  22. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 620pm – American Indians, as did most primitive tribes (and more complex political structures), formed the least free social orders known to man. Customs, taboos, and traditions snuffed out every vestige of freedom. The punishments for deviant behavior were draconian. Creativity seeped into tradition-bound behaviors at a snail’s pace. Today, only Leftwing revisionists are busy rewriting what actually transpired over the centuries.
    And you confuse Franklin’s assessment of Indian tribes coming together in a political union with supposed individual freedoms which were enjoyed by none in those Six Nations. As even recent history has shown, just because sovereign totalitarian nations form a pact does not provide evidence of their citizens enjoying any additional benefits from the existence of that pact.
    All that you have contributed here is a further delineation of the different worlds we see and live in.

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  23. Fuzz Avatar
    Fuzz

    I don’t believe that any ‘indigenous people’ have any extraordinary right to their geography or sovereignty. If a mightier society of humans can take it from them or include them in their already established empire, then so be it. In the end, humanity as a species benefits from such survival of the most evolved in their technology, arts and letters, science, etc. The situation is different when a less developed or peer society becomes rapacious and attacks a neighbor (Germany and the USSR attacking Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, … in 1939). I hope you understand the principle I am endorsing here.
    George, you may not have enraged Ben but you succeeded with me. Are you saying that if Germany and the USSR had been, say, 50% mightier than their neighbors, thus not peer but superior, then their occupation of those neighboring countries would have been justified?? “..can take it from them”, in the first instance, and “attacks a neighbor” in the second, are both functionally the same, unless the weaker nation/group in the first instance just passively gives up. As to whether the society in the first instance is “most evolved” is a matter of interpretation. The British Colonial Empire grew fat through subjugation and exploitation but they’re now a shadow of their former selves. They may have brought industrialization to India, but is a nation that conducted the Amritsar massacre really “evolved”? The US signed dozens of treaties with native Americans and then proceeded to break them all. How does the principle of “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness”, which the US assigns to itself, not apply to it’s relations with the greater world? If I love my own liberty, how can I justify denying yours? Please elaborate on your position.

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  24. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Fuzz,
    George no longer enrages me but what he does do is show that his ideology shapes his doctrine of a top down society, culture, and government. Hopefully those who once followed his flowery talk now see he isn’t the person they thought.
    My opinion of George in the realm of politics and government does not mean I think he is a bad person. My guess like most people he is a decent man who loves his family and friends. I bet that 99% of all of the people slaughtered around the globe at the hands of superior military power were decent people as well but George believes they got what they prepared for.

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  25. George Rebane Avatar

    Fuzz? I don’t know with whom I am talking. But I think you’re going for a gotcha instead of trying to understand what I said.
    Perhaps what might contribute to understanding is the realization that nation-states do not now and never have followed the mores and other formalisms of behavior to which we hold individuals. This should be clear from what our own government does daily in lying to us through its very formidable teeth.
    Kingdoms/empires then and nation-states now have only ‘interests’ which they pursue. And sometimes achieving these interests actually benefit their populations. But if anyone should understand the difference between individual behavior and national behavior, it should be the collectivists for whom the end has always justified the means.
    Recall that rights can only be granted by governments that have the power and will to enforce the ability of such rights to be exercised. Unenforced ‘rights’ are topics of fiction and wish lists awaiting their champion.

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  26. Gregory Avatar

    George, the Bill of Rights contained not rights granted by the government of the USA to its citizens, but rather restraints upon the government of the USA put in place by the people. A big difference.

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  27. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 549pm – Am not sure of what such claim I made about the Bill of Rights. Hint?
    Nevertheless, since you brought it up, in its restraints the BoR does delineate a number of rights the people have that shall not be infringed by their government. Such rights are introduced in the BoR and mentioned nowhere else in the Constitution. Perhaps that was reason enough to select that name for the first ten amendments.

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  28. Russ Steele Avatar

    Slime Computation
    “The great appeal of non-traditional computing is that I can connect the un-connectable and link the un-linkable,” said Andy Adamatzky, director of the Unconventional Computing Center at the University of the West of England. He’s made computers from electrified liquid crystals, chemical goo and colliding particles, but is best known for his work with Physarum, the lowly slime mold.
    Amoeba-like creatures that live in decaying logs and leaves, slime molds are, at different points in their lives, single-celled organisms or part of slug-like protoplasmic blobs made from the fusion of millions of individual cells. The latter form is assumed when slime molds search for food. In the process they perform surprisingly complicated feats of navigation and geometric problem-solving.
    Slime molds are especially adept at finding solutions to tricky network problems, such as finding efficient designs for Spain’s motorways and the Tokyo rail system. Adamatzky and colleagues plan to take this one step further: Their Physarum chip will be “a distributed biomorphic computing device built and operated by slime mold,” they wrote in the project description.

    “A living network of protoplasmic tubes acts as an active non-linear transducer of information, while templates of tubes coated with conductor act as fast information channels,” describe the researchers. “Combined with conventional electronic components in a hybrid chip, Physarum networks will radically improve the performance of digital and analog circuits.”

    If slime mold can do it why not the whole universe?

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  29. Gregory Avatar

    Russ 7:46
    Indeed, and once you can fabricate a belief from the behavior of slime mold to the fabric of the universe, there’s no limit to the number of possible realities you can theorize.
    Unfortunately, that doesn’t get you closer to figuring out which of the infinite possibilities is true, and this new possibility is merely one more possible rationalization for what you want to believe. Have at it.
    George 6:19
    “Recall that rights can only be granted by governments that have the power and will to enforce the ability of such rights to be exercised. ”
    Again, rights aren’t granted by the US Constitution. The Amendments of the Constitution are where rights are carved out by expressly limiting the government. They were granted not by the government, but by the people.
    No, the body of the constitution has no “rights” mentioned. The original body was where powers were expressly granted to the new central government. The first amendments were express limits to those powers, past the first 10 were often new powers granted.
    I think the fact that the Interstate Commerce Clause exists is proof time travel will never exist; if it did, someone in the future would have traveled back to the 18th century and given the ICC authors an offer they couldn’t refuse. I heard a former Dem government insider make a clear claim a couple days ago that all guns could be regulated at will by the Congress because of the ICC… in short, if you have a Colt made in the east 70 years ago and transported to California then and bought by your dad then, it is involved in interstate commerce and is fair game.

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