Rebane's Ruminations
February 2013
S M T W T F S
 12
3456789
10111213141516
17181920212223
2425262728  

ARCHIVES


OUR LINKS


YubaNet
White House Blog
Watts Up With That?
The Union
Sierra Thread
RL “Bob” Crabb
Barry Pruett Blog

George Rebane

Last Tuesday night almost 300 Nevada County residents gathered to hear a report from our Congressman Doug LaMalfa, and a presentation by Stewart Rhodes of Oathkeepers in the Grass Valley Veterans Hall presented by CABPRO.  The very stark presentation by Mr Rhodes was on the progress of government overreach and focused much on defense of the Second Amendment.  The message for Americans at the grassroots level was to resist all state efforts to actually or constructively confiscate our firearms.

I don’t want to do a rehash of what has been covered so much on RR during the almost seven years it has served as forum for the Left and Right to debate the most crucial questions that face our Republic in this new century.  But leaving the Vets Hall on a cold and blustery night again brought to mind a question that has puzzled me for some years – how should a liberal state deport itself toward its citizens when a goodly portion of them feel strongly that its government is in the process of destroying the nation?


Polls tell us that for starters about 85% of Americans feel that the country is not headed in the right direction.  Now that doesn’t mean that all these folks agree on what is the right direction.  On the contrary, about half of them believe that more government involvement at all levels is needed to bring things back onto an enlightened and even keel.  And about another half feel very strongly that we are already headed pell mell into an irretrievable autocracy cum tyranny.

But, dear reader, accept neither of these propositions.  Instead, let’s expand the posed question.  For example, should an enlightened state make it easy for its citizens to modify or even overturn its current form of government?  If so, how would it communicate, or more strongly, invite such a fundamental transformation?  If not, what means should it be able to employ to inhibit such a transformation, or more significantly, are there any limits to what force the established government can bring against the cohort of its own citizens that seeks to either unseat it or separate themselves from it?

Today we see several concrete answers to that question – poster child Assad of Syria – that are being implemented by admittedly illiberal Islamic countries and Russia.  When we look into the mirror do we see, or do we condone our federal government to also use such means?

The test case to answer these questions may well be upon us.  It involves our ability to possess firearms of sufficient power and capability to successfully resist federalized local police agencies for a sufficient period so that word of that resistance can spread across the country.  In other words, arms of appropriate mettle in the hands of civilians so that, if neighbors gather to mount their own ‘stand at Lexington green’, the state will not be able to quickly and quietly put them down, and whisk away the evidence of their courageous grievance.  I’m talking about resistance of a form and magnitude that cannot be hidden from the nation, no matter whether that nascent resistance ultimately succeeds or not.

That is what the diverse movements like Oathkeepers, Constitutional Sheriffs, …, movements that are spreading across America, are really all about.  Consider for starters, Stewart Rhodes openly called for citizens to refuse the registration of their firearms (Californians are already behind the curve), and then went on to press people to publicly call out their local sheriffs, constables, and other electeds to have them declare where they stand with respect to their oaths to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.  (Do you see the wisdom of the Founders in that phrasing?)

Things are rapidly passing the point where our local leaders – all of whom have sworn to defend and uphold – can continue to hide behind inanities and lame responses such as ‘we’ll have to see where the courts come down on this’.  All British courts in 1775 backed the Crown in its colonial dealings.

Our military has long been taught that it cannot hide behind the Nürnberg defense of ‘I was only following orders from my superiors.’  As officers – commissioned and non-commissioned – we were told in the strongest of terms that our oath required us to follow only lawful orders.  And here’s the hard part, as Americans operating within the legacy of liberty and individual responsibility, it was the duty of each of us to put the measure of lawfulness on every order we were commanded to carry out.

That is a terrible burden that all men who seek to remain free must always bear.  For to err in that call will not be forgiven.  We know the oath taken by so many of us did not lapse when we took off our uniforms.  So today, as the government prepares to confront massive civil unrest within our borders, what do we do when laws become lawless?

Posted in , , , , ,

71 responses to “When laws become lawless”

  1. Russ Steele Avatar

    Attending the Oathkeepers meeting I was reminded that it had been a long time since I had read the Constitution, which I had sworn to uphold when joining the Air Force. I discovered that Amazon has free copies which can be down loaded to a smartphone, iPad or Kindle. I recommend everyone with a smartphone down load a copy and in the moments between life’s demands study this important document. If you have not read and appreciate the significance of the Constitution how can you defend it? With Amazon’s help I am going to gift a copy to all of my children and grand children who have smartphones, iPads and Kindles.

    Like

  2. Steven Frisch Avatar

    George, for some reason my recent post is not showing up? I posted it first using the I have it saved

    Like

  3. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Grrr…..posting problems….

    Like

  4. George Rebane Avatar

    StevenF 929am – On this end everything seems normal, other comments are appearing on other RR postings, and RussS’ 725am appears normal. Please keep trying, and let me know what happens. Thanks.

    Like

  5. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Very odd George, my post goes up, then immediately comes down. Is there a built in size limit? (my post is rather long)
    When I post short questions they seem to stick. I will keep trying…it must be a problem with my browser.

    Like

  6. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    George– What polls are you using to determine that 85% of people are dissatisfied with the country’s direction? Besides good anti-government rhetoric that number seems a bit useless to me because practically everyone (as the numbers indicate) has a gripe about government in one way or another. I think some specifics as to what they are dissatisfied about would help. How many of those “dissatisfactions” cancel each other out? For example, X number of people may think the country is headed in the wrong direction because the govt. is “trying to take away their guns” while another X number of people think the country is headed in the wrong direction because they want more strict gun controls. Both sides ring up on the 85% but they are dissatisfied about the same thing, only opposite viewpoints. Isn’t that always going to be the case?
    As for massive civil unrest.. that is a real possibility when people get hungry. Maslows theory. Perhaps if the robber barons moved some of their jobs back to America there would be fewer hungry people. Yes, that will make more hungry people on the Pacific Rim, but I think since the multinationals use the American military (paid for by all tax payers) to protect and expand their foreign holdings (not shared with the taxpayers), they should show a little gratitude to the American people who make it all happen instead of raising their middle finger at American workers. Of course there is also “crisis capitalism”, the making of a buck off tragedy, like arms sales, and home security services and devices (for those who can afford it) to protect your stash from the roving gangs of hungry people.

    Like

  7. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 1015am – As you can see from JoeK’s 1020am TypePad seems not to be the problem. Sometimes having a long user session on TypePad does create different types of ‘time outs’ that may limit comment length. Try refreshing the page before posting, and always compose in another text editor and not in the comment box.

    Like

  8. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 1020am – I think I covered your observation about people dunning the government for different reasons in my post. But I don’t agree with your ‘cancelling out’ example – if some oppose a policy because it doesn’t go far enough in direction A, and others don’t like it because it doesn’t go far enough in the opposite direction B, then both cohorts are dissatisfied with their government, and their numbers add. Finding a solution that appropriately reduces those numbers is another (orthogonal) problem/issue.
    I wish you had stuck more to your “massive civil unrest” thread. Of course, hunger is and has been a reason for such unrest, but that has happened mostly in third world countries. Most certainly that was not a cause of either the American or the Bolshevik revolutions, nor any of the civil wars of Europe or Latin America during the last century.

    Like

  9. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Very strange… tried refreshing, I’m already in a separate text editor, and I tried changing browsers. I fear when they come up you will get like 10 of my posts! Are you sure the federal government is not blocking lengthy posts on your web site while they investigate you for sedition?

    Like

  10. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 1033am – Interesting observation Steve – investigating me for sedition, hmm – maybe things are further along than even the Oathkeepers reckon. Since others can post long comments, I see no reason why you should not be able to. And I can’t think of a comment that you would post that would not be fully endorsed by the administration to appear especially on a blog like RR 😉
    If all else fails, email me your comment, and I’ll post it with the appropriate citation. In the meanwhile, maybe other readers can also advise you based on their experiences.

    Like

  11. George Rebane Avatar

    [Steve Frisch sent me the following comment pursuant to unsuccessful tries to post it himself (see above discussion). It is posted here as received. gjr]
    I am not even quite sure what to say about this post. I wish I could have gone to the Oathkeepers event, but I am out of town on business. However, looking at their web site, at the prominent placement our elected Sheriff has in their materials, and hearing your analysis, provides me with a solid grounding in just how out of touch with our country and its founding principles these 300 people are. But it is indeed troubling that 300 people showed up on a dark and stormy night to partake in a dark and stormy dialogue.
    http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2013/02/09/california-cabpro-presents-stewart-rhodes-and-sheriff-keith-royal/
    But let me rebut a few of your points. First, your contention that 85% of the country feels the nation is on the wrong track. I am not sure how you came up with that number, but here are a few data points:
    Rasmussen (favored by many who blog here) (Google it as “Rasmussen right track”)
    RealClear (a polling aggregation site) (Google it as “RealClear right track”) (I have deleted links to keep this post to one link.)
    You are overstating ‘wrong track’ by about 100%. In addition, the ‘wrong track’ polling tracks very closely with ‘wrong track’ polling at a similar time in the recession of 2001, 1993, and 1982so we are not in a place that we are either unaccustomed to, or at any unprecedented level. Is it too high? Certainly. But as you adroitly pointed out, many of those who believe that the country are on the wrong track are people like me, who see the serial attempts by a Republican Congress to create the false crises of, “an irretrievable autocracy cum tyranny”, as a main cause.
    Second, for gentle readers who cringe at the question of whether or not our citizenry should encourage, “….an enlightened state [that] make[s] it easy for its citizens to modify or even overturn its current form of government?”, I remind them that doing so is exactly what all of the Great Divide talk all these many years at Rebane’s Ruminations has really been about. Our method of making it easy to modify or overturn our current government decisions is the law, Bastiat’s vaunted law, rather than extra-legal methods of overturning our FORM of government. RR is all about manufacturing a crisis that will lead to a reactionary response, spreading fear, and counting on human nature to perpetuate the crises in order to gain political advantage. Thus, the question, “.. are there any limits to what force the established government can bring against the cohort of its own citizens that seeks to either unseat it or separate themselves from it?”, is intended specifically to imply that the answer is no, there is no force the government will not use, thus you, the citizen, must rise up and defend your rights against this manufactured crises. It is always easier to motivate people through fear than hope, and these pages have been a master course in the perpetuation of fear.
    How many readers here really believe that the correct path today is overturning our FORM of government, and by that I mean our Constitutional republic? I suspect very few if any.
    “The test case to answer these questions may well be upon us. It will involve our ability to possess firearms of sufficient power and capability to successfully resist federalized local police agencies for a sufficient period so that word of that resistance can spread across the country. In other words, arms of sufficient mettle in the hands of civilians that, if neighbors gather to mount their own ‘stand at Lexington green’, the state will not be able to quickly and quietly put them down, and whisk away the evidence of their courageous grievance. I’m talking about resistance of a form and magnitude that cannot be hidden from the nation, no matter whether that nascent resistance ultimately succeeds or not.”
    I am wondering if people are really comfortable with the idea that a significant segment of our population is engaged in rhetoric like the paragraph above? Who determines which segments of our society are experiencing a diminution of their rights? And in so thinking has a right to take up arms against the law of the land? Should any group of citizens who feel their rights are being diminished be free to take up arms, fight their neighbors, and overthrow the state, if they believe their safety is at risk? And how far a cry from revolution is the contention that, “All British courts in 1775 backed the Crown in its colonial dealings”? Courts, and law, are the very essence of our republic, and attempts at nullification led to a conflict leaving hundreds of thousands of Americans dead 150 years ago. We have had our nullification crises, and many believe, overcome it. How far a cry from anarchy is the statement, “So today, as the government prepares to confront massive civil unrest within our borders, what do we do when laws become lawless?” There is no ‘massive civil unrest’, no crises, no police state bent on undoing the Constitution out there; there is merely the rising of fear and tension as a political tool being deployed here, and by a network of fear-mongers who desire a Divide. The framing of the statement as a question does not make it less seditious when the asker of the question implies the answer in everything they state.
    I would counsel our elected Sheriff that the greater threat in Nevada County is not the potential registration of certain guns, but the potential for acting out against peace and public safety by a few fired up ‘constitutionalists’ who believe that the revolution has come. I half expect Carl Reiner to be in the lead.
    Sheriff Royals ‘Constitutional crises’ is more likely to come from within, when his sworn duty calls on him to react to a local militia minded band of vigilantes, than from a federal government doing what was done regularly in frontier society, asking people to check their guns at the town gate to keep the peace. Sheriff Royal is playing with fire, and if anything happens here, like a standoff with a self styled militiaperson, he is going to get burned.
    For Sheriff Royal to be playing footsie with this kind of rhetoric is dangerous, and I believe contrary to the will of the vast majority of Nevada County voters. As an elected Constitutional representative Sheriff Royal’s role is to keep the peace not act as an agent provocateur in the right wing revolution. It is one thing to state publicly that one supports the second amendment, and quite another to imply that a duly authorized Congress acting to restrict that amendment within the confines of the law, is extra-Constitutional, and thus a rational for nullifying it.

    Like

  12. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    I’m sure you’re aware of Hedges vs Obama which is currently the strongest legal challenge to the indefinite detention portions of the NDAA. AT least in this case it is the left who is leading the charge against the constitutionality of the policy.
    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_ndaa_and_the_death_of_the_democratic_state_20130211/

    Like

  13. Gregory Avatar

    Just how does one ‘restrict an amendment’ that states plainly that a right “shall not be infringed”?
    Just wondering, does Steven Frisch think guns like this one, pictured in TheUnion, should be banned?
    http://www.theunion.com/news/4888617-113/gun-royal-county-nevada
    It seems to me that Frisch is confused; insisting on having the means to change the government is not a call to change the government or a paean to vigilantism. In fact, ensuring the health of the 2nd may be the best route to insuring the continuity of our Republic. Switzerland and the USA have both had remarkable political stability over the years, and having armed and uppity citizens seems key to both situations.

    Like

  14. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF (in GeorgeR’s 1138am) – Thank you Steve for sending me your extended comment, I’m glad that we finally got it posted. (The 80+% dissatisfied number is regularly reported on Fox News, and per my posted statement, includes all people dissatisfied but not agreeing on the proper way forward. But diminish the number by half, and the opposition expressed through the cited organizations will not change.)
    What concerns me and so many of the conservetarian bent about your response is that you immediately see such assessments of what our government is doing and has been doing as sedition. This seems to be the continuation of ongoing efforts to shut off public expressions of dissent. The alternative in countries where such proscriptions are successful is to drive these observations and discussions underground. America is not supposed to be that kind of a country, and our history is rich with such loud and even more vehement complaints.
    When considering these issues, it always comes back to me and mine that you of the Left are a fearsome lot. You are ever eager to march people into the dungeon or to the wall when they oppose your prescriptions for how everyone should live their lives. And your strong admonitions to stifle debate create a palpable fear in us, for we have seen where your ways lead.
    The frustrations in the land are such that hundreds of thousands in the several states have signed petitions of secession. I would think the proper response to that by those of us seeking to preserve the Union is for some self-examination instead of reflexive accusations and indictments intended to silence dissent with the established regime.
    We of the conservative/libertarian wing of our body politic are in the minority, and see the march of populist democracy making that a permanent condition for us in America. As a minority are we to simply acquiesce to what we see as the insane tyranny of the majority. And are we to do this in the face of federal and states governments that now unabashedly and openly flaunt established laws through their selective and pernicious enforcement, and openly urge the arbitrary abandonment of our Constitution by the claim that it has become an outdated and ineffective basis for our laws, and for guiding our country into this century?
    And to oppose all this in open forum is now called sedition in the eyes of our new masters of the Left? The constant of your response is that the important message is ignored, and the messenger(s) attacked – not a promising way forward. Through uniting our voices we wish you no harm, but only to reclaim our freedoms.

    Like

  15. Paul Emery Avatar

    So George how do you then explain that it is indeed the Left that is leading the legal charge against portions of the NDAA and illegal surveillance on civilians by the military using the Patriot Act as a cover?

    Like

  16. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, I’d suggest it’s because the left thinks the targets are most likely to be on the left.

    Like

  17. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 327pm – Agree with Gregory’s 337pm. And who knows, tyrannies (as do revolutions) eat their own children. After WW2 when communists took over a country that had been delivered to them by local communist partisans/terrorists, quite often the leaders of such cells were quietly executed under some pretext of counter-revolution or … . Why? because such leaders frequently became disenchanted with the reality that communism delivered, and knowing the country, they were the most capable of overthrowing the new regime before it had established the power organs of state.

    Like

  18. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    George — 10:32 I think we agree on the issue of two opposites adding to the total of dissatisfied people, my use of the words “cancel out” may have caused confusion. What I meant by cancel out is that to say 85% of people are dissatisfied is misleading because many of them are disgruntled about the same thing only opposite sides creating, in my mind, a kind of numerical duplicity. A better indication of the situation might be to cluster the people by category. X number of people are concerned about issue B regardless of which side of an issue they align with. Also, people could be only dissatisfied with the direction of the country in some areas and may be satisfied in others. A good starting point in the search for solutions might be to see what issues people of all political persuasions agree about, if any. A better approach would be to use the Fischer and Urey focus on interests not positions. Much political disagreement seems to be about positions than more than interests. Our adversarial two party system seems to be more designed for competition than collaboration as a conflict resolution method, which as you know, is not the best way to solve problems.

    Like

  19. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    George—about civil unrest and hunger. Very few revolutions are about hunger per se. The Russian revolution started over participation in WWI, and the American was more about money than anything else. Revolutions are usually marketed to hungry oppressed people as “freedom from tyranny”, “spreading democracy”, “let them eat cake” or some other catch phrase to entice the working masses who provide the bulk of the cannon fodder. I do not think many economically secure people would seriously participate in a revolution (unless they stood to make large gains), for fear of losing their lifestyle. So as in the past, if unrest and increased lawlessness occur, it will come from the bottom of the economic ladder. Haven’t most revolutions been class warfare? I read the other day where shop lifting food is on the rise. There is a simple fix, give them jobs. The problem, once again, seems to be how to accomplish that goal. Given the current extreme ideological divide in that regard, I don’t see much hope for a resolution until all of us old fogies die and take our ideological baggage with us. Despite all of the media distractions and information overload, I think the young people of the world have a better sense of reality than we do and if they band together they can influence great changes. Hopefully it won’t be too late.

    Like

  20. Paul Emery Avatar

    But why does the Right seem to ignore Constitutional challenges through the courts?

    Like

  21. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 449pm – Thank you for your good thoughts. I first introduced Fisher and Ury to these pages some years back and have long argued the use of principled negotiation (I used it successfully in business and taught its use as a consultant.)
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2009/11/why-reason-fails.html
    The problem with applying PN with and in government is that most politicians are unprincipled self-gratifying creatures by nature; and bureaucrats, no matter their moral colors, are immersed in an environment (best described by The Tragedy of the Commons) wherein principled negotiations are definitely to be avoided because the principled always lose to the perfidious. It was ever thus, and is the prime reason that government is inherently a necessary evil in society whose impact should at all times be monitored and minimized.
    And sadly, your “…the young people of the world have a better sense of reality than we do …” is not even close. On the news we see and hear what young people of other cultures (e.g. Europeans and Islamists) know of world events. In Europe I have spoken at length to the young as they grew from high schoolers to entering job markets. Here at home, I am able to interact on a more or less ongoing basis with high schoolers.
    Conclusion: in the aggregate their sense of reality is essentially non-existent, they are totally contained in the bubble wrap of their most intimate and proximal affairs; their knowledge base stops five feet from their heads. They have been purposely educated by an already dysfunctional system to have a very hazy and unreal worldview, which almost all of them admit. Their solution, perhaps the correct one, is that the real world is screwed up and figuring it can wait. In the interval they (the sharp ones) are concerned with what’s required to get a real job and get out on their own. Their ideology, those that have one, is three slogans deep. All the others just have their heads firmly planted in their asses, and they will become the preponderant ‘stash ladies’ and gentlemen of the next decade.
    The bottom line is that never in our history have we created a generation less ready to meet adulthood than today. In ‘The Fourth Turning’ historians Strauss and Howe provide a very plausible scenario which now awaits us all in the coming decade or two. It isn’t pretty.

    Like

  22. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 521pm – Paul, you’re going to have to make that case emphasizing the asymmetry that you here imply.

    Like

  23. Paul Emery Avatar

    Let me re-phrase my question by asking you if you are aware of Hedges vs Obama? It is the strongest legal challenge to provisions of the NDAA that allow indefinite detention of civilians by the military at their discretion. If not start with this
    “Chris Hedges, a former correspondent for the New York Times and a senior fellow at The Nation Institute, is lead plaintiff in a suit brought by a group of reporters and activists against the Obama Administration over the NDAA provision authorizing indefinite detentions without trial. He was one of a group of reporters awarded a Pulitzer Prize in 2002 for the New York Times’ coverage of global terrorism.
    Read more: http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/remnant/2013/feb/17/hedges-vs-obama/#ixzz2Laeo9CMW
    Follow us: @wtcommunities on Twitter

    Like

  24. Gregory Avatar

    “But why does the Right seem to ignore Constitutional challenges through the courts?” Paul E
    Like Citizens United and DC v. Heller?

    Like

  25. Paul Emery Avatar

    Well countered Gregory
    That’s the ruling that allows Unions and corporations unlimited spending to influence elections allowing the creation of Super PACS immune to campaign spending limitations.
    The Unions love that ruling.
    I was referring specifically to constitutional questions re NDAA.

    Like

  26. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    “All enemies, foreign and domestic”. Wow. I will have to ponder that phrase for a good spell before commenting. The ramifications are weighty.

    Like

  27. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I should have known that you fixate on the word “sedition” George, and ignore the other, and in my opinion much more important, parts of my post.
    But for the reader, here is the definition of sedition: “In law, sedition is overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that is deemed by the legal authority to tend toward insurrection against the established order. Sedition often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent (or resistance) to lawful authority. Sedition may include any commotion, though not aimed at direct and open violence against the laws.”
    So you seriously claim your post is not seditious? I will let the readers determine whether that is the case.
    But let me restate my key points:
    1. The data disproves your 85% claim directly.
    2. There is no crises, there is a manufactured sense of crises for political purposes.
    3. Your statement not only refutes the policy of government it refutes the FORM of government, and is thus seditious.
    4. You are essentially proposing nullification as a policy (Nullification, in United States constitutional history, is a legal theory that a state has the right to nullify, or invalidate, any federal law which that state has deemed unconstitutional. The theory of nullification has never been legally upheld; rather, the Supreme Court has rejected it.
    5. The Oathkeepers are openly proposing nullification on their web site and in their materials.
    6. The elected Sheriff of Nevada County is supporting an organization that supports nullification, in contravention to his oath to the people and the Constitution of the United States.
    I would say these are pretty serious issues for a naturalized United States citizen. I would say you should take them back where they are more at home, like the former Soviet Union.

    Like

  28. Russ Steele Avatar

    Steven@08:45PM
    When is the last time you read the Constitution? It was written to support our God given rights, not to subvert them. Any policy that subverts those God given rights needs to be nullified. Period. End of argument.

    Like

  29. Paul Emery Avatar

    Who makes the call Russ that”God given rights” have been subverted? Does anyone who feels the spirit in that direction therefore have the right to nullify whatever laws they feel are wrong and act appropriately?

    Like

  30. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, I’m going to guess you or your friends did just that on more than one occasion ignoring State and Federal law regarding drug use and feeling justified in doing so. Is that materially different?
    Frisch 8:45 you’re off the deep end.

    Like

  31. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 845pm – it appears that you are again up to the old crappola that you have pushed on this blog numerous times. Like for example, your #3 – what statement of mine refutes America’s form of constitutional government? I am the biggest proponent of that form of government, it is your tribe that is openly tearing down the Constitution and fundamentally transforming America. And your point #4 is laughable – “essentially proposing nullification” – even if I did, so what? Is that one more tenet of the First Amendment that you and the Left have now removed from public discourse.
    Finally, and pay attention to this, if you even hint once more to this Estonian born American that I am violating my oath to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic, and threaten this naturalized citizen that I should take anything back to the Soviet Union, you are going to be spewing your collectivist bullshit on Pelline’s echo chamber.

    Like

  32. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Russ, I read from the Constitution quite often. I enjoy reading constitutional cases, ever since reading The Brethren almost 30 years ago. I’m also a regular reader of the SCOTUS blog. But I see your point, God is on your side…just like some other mass movements I have heard of.
    Go ahead George, kick me off your right wing fantasyland. I SEE YOU CANNOT REFUTE THE NULLIFICATION POINT.

    Like

  33. MikeL Avatar
    MikeL

    Stevie…..the first amendment trumps your sedition charge every time. Maybe you need to go back to Wiki from where you see and peed the sedition quote and read the remainder of the article. Also do check out the wiki article for sedition conspiracy.

    Like

  34. Conservative in exile Avatar
    Conservative in exile

    Steve.. Just which rung of the Progressive political ladder do you reside?
    How far up that ladder have you managed to scale? You do realize that
    when and “IF” your dream of a new U.S.S. of A comes forth, only the political ruling class will have anything of value, or “status”?
    The day may come when you look out the window with your kid and tell him,” one day, NONE of this will be yours.”
    In that same utopia the gov. will tell you just what job you will have.
    How much you can be paid.
    OHH… Forgive me all to hell…. I forgot you have good friends in China.
    Ca. will be the first tribute penalty payment. How much do we owe China?
    They frown on civilians with weapons too. No wonder Ca. is doing it’s best to disarm it’s citizens.

    Like

  35. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 318am – What is there to “refute” about your nullification point? Nullification was promoted in debate by several prominent Founders. While SCOTUS ruled against nullification, it did so during an epoch that neither saw nor anticipated today’s federal overreach. The history of SCOTUS rulings on any matter does not constitute a prohibition on further debate on such rulings. SCOTUS can reverse itself any time it wants to, and has done so throughout our history. Again I note that it is the Left that always assigns itself as the arbiter of free speech, of what can and cannot be debated.
    As I have outlined, there is a significant movement afoot toward states’ rights as envisioned by our Founders. And I believe if this movement grows, it will have an impact both on Congress and SCOTUS. States may again become the fertile laboratories of governance with degrees of freedom unimagined by today’s progressive cadres. That may be the softest version of the Great Divide that then heals again to a sustainable Republic as the remaining socialist states (e.g. California) see the error of their ways. I will have more to say about that in the future, and we can debate its possibilities and probabilities then. (I hope that you will still be with us.)

    Like

  36. Walt B Avatar

    Here in Ca. where they will most likely pass the gun confiscation bill,
    how many “Ruby ridges” will we have? Maybe a “Waco” incident or two?
    You know full well there are some overzealous law enforcement out there.
    Hat’s off to Missouri for bringing a bill to light that makes it a crime
    to bring forth a bill that attacks the 2ND in any way.
    In other words,, ” We will SHOW you what happens.” from the “show me” state.
    And LIB news still won’t report that the mall shooting in Oregon
    was stopped by a person with a CWP. Nope,, that news will be kept as quiet as possible. How do I know this? A good friend of ours that relocated there passed that info on. Ya’ might remember him.. Jeff A. ring a bell?
    Speaking of Jeff, I hear he is quite the celebrity up there.
    Our loss is their gain.

    Like

  37. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    George- 5:46 — When was the last time you were in a college classroom? I agree that today’s young people are awash in media distraction and socializing, as I have stated previously, particularly high schoolers. My statement about young people more refers to college age students.. those who have gotten out away from the influence of their parents and are starting to form thoughts and ideas of their own. I spent the last 20 years in a college classroom and while I must admit, the overall quality of work has diminished (the internet makes it too easy to cheat), the quality of their ideas has not. You may think ill of their abilities because they don’t think the same things you do, and therefore, are stupid. You call the ones who are concerned with getting a job as the “sharp ones”. I would use the term “narrowly focused”. It could be that young people see more going on than getting a job and making money. What good is it to have a job and make money if everything around you is in chaos. I think many young people sense and see the hypocrisy we are surrounded by and are rejecting much of the politics and ideology behind that hypocrisy. The right doesn’t like that much because it is their ideology that is mostly being rejected.

    Like

  38. Paul Emery Avatar

    Russ
    Can you show me where God gave us the right to possess automatic rifles? (god given right) Is it in scripture or in the mind of the gun owner?

    Like

  39. Walt B Avatar

    If not by one way, then our overlords will find another.
    http://redflagnews.com/headlines/disarming-americas-heros-veterans-receiving-official-letters-prohibiting-them-from-purchasing-possessing-receiving-or-transporting-a-firearm-or-ammunition
    I’m sure they could find any reason to place a VET into the ” shall not own” category.
    This may be how it begins. Disarm the ones who know how to use guns first.
    Then there is good ol’ Joe B. … ” Just get a shotgun…JUST get a shotgun… A double barrel shotgun. Go out on the back porch and fire off a couple of blasts.. That will scare off anyone in your home.”
    Anyone else see that? For one, that is not safe advice. You will be lucky not to get hauled away for unsafe discharge of a weapon. But you will wind up in front of a judge. Guaranteed… That is of course if you live through the home invasion. with joe’s advice, two shots and your done. Some lady will be too damned scared to figure out how to reload the gun… ” Just where in Hell did we put that box of shells?… I know we put them somewhere safe so the kids wouldn’t find them!!…. How do I open this thing?”
    All the while hearing the intruder getting closer and closer.
    Yup… Great advise Joe…. You just may have gotten a women killed.
    And did you take acting lessons for that? Your great at laying on the sappy lines.
    You were so good at it, Tammy Fay Baker came to mind. And you did it without a tissue.
    ( I was ready to hurl before he was done.) ” Just,,, just get a shotgun. (sniff ,sniff,,, with as much sorrowful emotion he can muster.)

    Like

  40. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 1010am – Joe, you are most likely more up on today’s college undergraduate than am I. Today my experience continues with high schoolers and grad students (actually post docs). However, I must remind myself also that you see them through different eyes than I. I do NOT see them as “stupid” (that is a more or less permanent processing disability), but I do see them as profoundly ignorant. They are products of an extremely broken educational system, and most of them have a collectivist cum communist worldview that has been drilled into them throughout their public schools experience. And, sadly, most of them want to prepare for government jobs.
    I also recall that it has always been the “narrowly focused” yet broadly tolerant people who built the country we inherited. In today’s world of accelerating technology, if you don’t focus on getting your STEM (related) toolset in place, then you may spend the rest of your life spouting redistributionist pabulum.
    There definitely are two distinct groups of young people out there. I hope that one group does not stifle the other. More on that in an upcoming post.

    Like

  41. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Perhaps today’s students have had a collectivist view drilled into them….which gives them no credit for being thinking, analytical human beings…. or it is also possible that after seeing the possibilities for the future, they have decided on their own, that a collectivist world view (as you describe it) is the best course of action for them to take with regard to their future and the future of the planet they plan to raise their children on. Conservative thinking seems to want to blame rejection of their ideas on some external force, like brainwashing “collectivist view drilled into them”, or the liberal bias in the information system painting a distorted viewpoint, rather than rejections based on individual thought processes deciding which courses of action seem the most reasonable to them and their future.

    Like

  42. Gregory Avatar

    WB, the fellow who stopped the mall shooting was interviewed on Portland TV news:
    http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html
    It was covered by the Portland Oregonian:
    http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2012/12/security_guard_said_he_had_rob.html
    So, it was well covered by local media. For some strange reason, it wasn’t picked up by the New York Times.

    Like

  43. Gregory Avatar

    I’m still waiting to hear if Frisch thinks the gun pictured here should be banned:
    http://www.theunion.com/news/4888617-113/gun-royal-county-nevada
    Paul E., I’d also like to know your opinion on that. Semi automatic weapons have been owned by civilians worldwide since the first successful design, the “Broomhandle” Mauser, came on the market circa 1896, and now comprise most of the guns sold. The Mauser was fitted with 10 and 20 round magazines, and shoulder stocks (now illegal, is considered a sawed off rifle) to give them more accuracy. It’s also amusing to note that the sidearm “blasters” carried by the likes of Han Solo and Luke Skywalker in the movies were, in fact, real, actual Broomhandle Mausers with added black plastic bits to make them look more, well, like ray guns.

    Like

  44. Walt B Avatar

    Good catch Gregory. And we still keep hearing that armed citizens don’t stop violent acts. It’s really difficult to find a story from LIB news when an armed citizen stops a crime in progress. Just last week a robbery was stopped with an AR15. Nope,,, you won’t see that on MSNBC.
    As I went to the dump today, I saw a sign about and auction on April 13th
    put on by The Friends of the NRA. Anyone know more about it? I didn’t see anything about it at The Range when I was there today. ( DARN… Five minutes late for the last bulk .308 can. )
    If you have reloading equipment your not using,, I will be more than happy to take it off your hands, and pay the fair value. Even presses are now on a long back order.

    Like

  45. Walt B Avatar

    Just saw the previous post Greg,, I didn’t hear about the Broom handle being used in the movie.(cool!) I will have to dig out the old flick and check that out.
    I did hear that other “real” weapons were used as well. just as you said. A little extra space age furniture, and you have a blaster.
    I don’t think Paul can even identify the rifle, let alone who makes it, or what it is. It’s “scarry looking”. that’s good enough for him.
    Lets see if he can guess just which cal. it is.

    Like

  46. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 1125am – I think your interpretation of conservative thinking re collectivist indoctrination is correct. The prime reason conservatives and libertarians have come to believe that is through the sad experience of history. Collectivism teaches the true worth of humans and that of achieving their highest potential is attained through membership in and working within an approved class, i.e. the collective.
    As a conservetarian, I believe that such worth and attainment is achieved by people as individuals, whether nurtured by their proximal collective or not. Moreover, the more formal, comprehensive, and cohesive the collective becomes, the more is individuality and human creativity (potential) suppressed. And finally, we believe that the natural (i.e. as informed and directed by our double helix) state of Man is still as striving individuals belonging to small groups in/on which each can make a direct and measurable impact.
    Hence, the collective mindset is one that now “must be carefully taught” to our young through ideologies that are a relatively recent product of misdirected minds.

    Like

  47. Walt B Avatar

    Ooopppss,,, exchange “Paul” for Steve.
    Yup,, mistakes happen… even for me…

    Like

  48. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    George 1:04 — “must be carefully taught” “misdirected minds” Again you are attaching external circumstances to blame for ideological differences, which you seem to assume cannot be the result of rational thought only some devious plot to overthrow capitalism. One could also argue, and many have (Zinn, Chompski, among others) that the same can be said of conservative views and ideals… ie. going to the correct pre-schools gets you into the correct prep-schools, gets you into Yale, then into skull and bones and grooms you to be one of the movers and shakers of commerce and government. A quick look at some of the politico/economic dynasties of modern times sheds a little light — Bush, Rockefeller, Kennedy, Romney… How many wealthy families of all political persuasions also entered into the world of politics in a multi-generational fashion? How many sons and grandsons have picked up the family political aspirations banner to become president? Maybe people disagree with conservative ideas because they see them as just plain bad from their own perspective. How many working people think laws allowing off-shore tax havens are a great idea when such laws are detrimental to their own well being?

    Like

  49. Gregory Avatar

    Walt, just google ‘Han Solo blaster’ and you’ll get plenty of hits. Here’s a toy that one can probably assume was licensed by Lucasfilm:
    http://www.geekologie.com/2011/09/09/han-solo-blaster.jpg
    Yes, dear friends, that is 95% a toy Mauser replica, the very first successful semiautomatic gun on the market, dating from the 19th century.
    BTW, “scarry” means it has scars. “Scary” is something that gives one fright.

    Like

  50. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 141pm – Not at all. Collectivism can be framed as the product of rational thought, see Marx and Engels. As I have shown here, rational thought can lead one in many directions. But two of several factors which dictate the application of rational thought are its premises and the system of logic used. Marx, et al started with some pretty bad premises for openers.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2009/11/why-reason-fails.html
    And your characterization that conservative ideals have a provenance similar to collectivist ideals is obviously in error. Conservative ideals of individualism and individual enterprise arise as naturally in a 4-year-old living on Main St USA as they do in a village shopkeeper in Bhutan. No careful teaching is required.
    But you are correct in apprehending that when people see that their individual enterprise is deficient (for whatever reason), they (the underclass) become envious of the more successful and consequently collect themselves in the attempt to gain some of the fruits of success that has eluded them. In that, collectivism is often the natural repository of the darker side of human nature where envy and retribution are born, live, and grow.
    Capitalism, as an expression of individual enterprise, can also screw up by ignoring the travails of the underclass. What comes as a surprise to the Left is that the bell curve of abilities in all dimensions is a real and discriminating attribute of our universe. The wiser capitalists account for this by establishing judicious redistributions of wealth that do not create commons and their inevitable tragedies. Such judicious means must always include corrective feedback wherein the less able are motivated to continually achieve at their available levels and see their rewards for that as fulfilling. In no circumstance should the ability to fog a mirror guarantee to an individual an equal outcome.

    Like

Leave a comment