Rebane's Ruminations
January 2013
S M T W T F S
 12345
6789101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
2728293031  

ARCHIVES


OUR LINKS


YubaNet
White House Blog
Watts Up With That?
The Union
Sierra Thread
RL “Bob” Crabb
Barry Pruett Blog

George Rebane

Bjorn Lomborg is an internationally recognized and much published environmentalist.  He even believes that AGW is a factor in climate change.  Recently he wrote an article that was critical of President Obama’s inaugural “three horsemen of the climate apocalypse” listed as the "devastating impact of raging fires, and crippling drought, and more powerful storms".  The astute reader knows that there have been no such increases in fires, droughts, and storms with which the Left likes to decorate its calls for greater government control of everything under the sun.

And Lomborg does a fine job of again summarizing the data on all this.  But that is not what I want to talk about.  The vagaries of the climate change data and its in/correct interpretations have been argued for years by qualified scientists and technically savvy bloggers (locally by Russ Steele and Anthony Watts).  What I want to reprise is how substantive reports on issues – here about the misinformation spewed by AGW True Believers – are treated in today’s polarized public debate.

Lomborg’s assertion concludes, “Fear-mongering exaggeration about effects of global warming distracts us from finding affordable and effective energy alternatives.”  As an AGW skeptic I wholeheartedly agree with that.  Unfortunately, fear-mongering is the only stock in trade that the Left has for making its collectivist policies palatable to the general public, even if it means outright misrepresentation of the record.   But more important, it is the asymmetry of how the debate is conducted that makes the fear-mongering stick.


The skeptics of any such larger government control policy will respond with data, studies, and analyses based on reason and an open look at the science involved.  The predictable and inevitable response from the collectivists is a total silence on the substance of the skeptics’ argument.  Instead, their return is a volley against the individual skeptics, their supposed sponsoring moneyed interests, or at best the citing of some form of consensus that purports to oppose or invalidate the skeptic’s argument.  The consensus cited is usually of some group of scientists, physicians, lawyers, …, all the way to public opinion polls.  In short, what comes back is a reference to a previous conclusion that does not address the most recent substance of the matter, instead using that previous conclusion as a premise for reasserting its truth.

This circling of the same barn, with the same type of responses from the Left, is technically known as begging the question.   In such a go around, for whatever the issue may be, the Right then busily goes back to the drawing board, digs up more data, cranks up another compelling analysis of that, and presents its case.  And again, the Left’s response is the same old same old.

But the Left’s response has an advantage with the rank and file audience – it requires no deeper understanding of the numbers, processes, and logic that sustains the skeptic’s case.  Specifically, understanding the Left’s response requires a skill set first developed in kindergarten, and then honed in the primary grades.  The result is what we have in Washington today as recently epitomized by SecState Clinton’s “What does it matter?”  Easily three out of four Americans would accept that counter charge because they could not give the correct answer to Clinton's question which successfully parried the inquiry about how our government prepared for and responded to the attack on our Benghazi consulate.  And so goes the larger debate for the benefit of the sheeple.

Posted in , , , ,

78 responses to “Climate Change – Another Asymmetric Dialogue”

  1. George Rebane Avatar

    GerryF 1222am – Pray, what would you like to have explained?
    Are you claiming that in, say, the last 10K years there are not equivalent temperature records using a baseline in an arbitrarily sized and selected data window?
    There is no argument here that the earth has not gone through a recent (and minute) warming spell that has at least paused, if not ended. I don’t want to repeat all my arguments for AGW skepticism. They are readily available. Cite them individually, and I’ll defend them.
    But really, what does that plot say to you that compels you to support certain public policies? (Posit that we know what we’re talking about when we extract a single number to represent ‘global temperature’ given the inputs by type, epoch, reliability, regularity, … .)
    PS. also see inputs like

    New paper shows 20th century solar activity was at highest levels of past 9,400 years

    Like

  2. Gregory Avatar

    Gerry, just where was the thermometer placed to get those readings? That’s only slightly snarky; you see, any global temp is going to be a manufactured number, a mix of many measurements.
    What would the temperature be without any people on the planet driving Hummers? Flat and stable?
    “Global warming” melting Andean glaciers uncovered 500 year old mummies of Inca child sacrifices… so, think that might mean the Little Ice Age global glacier expansion circa 1550 might have covered them?
    The Little Ice Age only ended in the 19th century; some claim early 20th. Yes, it got warmer in the 20th; there was also something of a Grand Solar Maximum starting sometime in the ’30’s, and it only ended sometime around 2006. Didn’t cause much more luminant energy to hit us but it did block more high energy galactic cosmic rays than normal, and we now know (only the past few years) that these influence cloud formation, and GCR flux, varying with where we are in our solar system’s orbit around the Milky Way, is associated with about a 9F swing in equatorial ocean temperatures in geologic time.
    In short, the “graphical proof” (a phrase used by one local biologist turned warming alarmist) of temperatures going up, CO2 going up, “By golly, CO2 is causing the temperature to rise!” is confusing coincidence with causality. The IPCC process has been trying to prove that link for something like 25 years but the scariest claims keep getting rolled back.
    For the record, I’ve no doubt human activity has contributed to the warming since the beginning of the industrial age, but it’s been swamped by larger natural variations that IPCC senior scientists (including the Climategate principals) have been minimizing.

    Like

  3. Gerry Fedor Avatar
    Gerry Fedor

    Let me try to understand your point Gregory as you seem to be saying that the this data was generated because of a “misplacement” of the thermometers?
    It that your premise to discount the data that several completely different agencies have reported independently of each other?
    Sorry, but having a MS in a scientific field I’m trying to correctly understand the basis for your argument as well as try to understand your and George’s point of view as I seem to have a difference conclusion than you have, especially when you look at the reported rate of temperature rise.
    No one has every said that the temperatures would not change through normal deviations within the sphere of environmental changes (if that is your argument) as these changes have gone on for billions of years, but I think the concern is with the speed / rates of these changes as these rates of recent changes, have never been recorded at such an accelerated rate.

    Like

  4. George Rebane Avatar

    GerryF 615pm – I fear your concern about the uniqueness of any claimed rate of change is misplaced. To the extent that we can measure temps over past epochs with useful reliabilities, rapid changes have occurred. The very rapid cooling/freezing of Greenland a thousand years ago comes to mind.

    Like

  5. Russ Steele Avatar

    Gerry@06:15PM
    Can you please provide a link the accelerating rate of climate change? According to the data the rate has been relatively flat for the last 17 years. Where is the rapid change?

    Like

  6. Russ Steele Avatar

    Gerry@12:22AM
    One need to take Wiki climate data with a grain of salt. A warmer William Connelly have been editing it for years, removing any other points of view. You can see how the data has been manipulated here:
    http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/data-tampering-at-ushcngiss/

    Like

  7. Gregory Avatar

    “Let me try to understand your point Gregory as you seem to be saying that the this data was generated because of a “misplacement” of the thermometers?”
    I’m afraid you misunderstand and underestimate the artificiality of any “global” temperature. There are thousands of terrestrial temperature recording locations, and they have come and gone over the years. Each individual keeper of a dataset have their own way of stitching them altogether; when an antarctic station, or a Siberian station, drops out, you need to adjust the average of all the others, and a similar but opposite action has to happen when a Saharan station is decommissioned (not to mention a Wynnan or a Tropicanan). And, on top of that complication, there aren’t may temperature measurement stations out in the middle of the oceans and in the most inhospitable hot and cold terrestrial sites.
    Satellite records don’t have the siting problems that Watts and his minions like Russ Steele have documented, and include the atmosphere over the oceans but they only go back to 1979. You might notice they don’t have the same scary peak, for some reason:
    http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/
    But even the scary peaking terrestrial records have stalled in the last 16 years.
    In short, it isn’t as cut and dried as that one chart in wikipedia might lead you to believe.

    Like

  8. Gerry Fedor Avatar
    Gerry Fedor

    Flat for the past 17 years? Sorry Russ, you may have a chart or two and I’m sure that I have something similar, but if you look at the past 125 years these changes have been shown to be real.
    This is not something that is unknown, and if you look at the last 17 years of the following chart you may have a point, but the overall trend is one of upward progression:
    http://processtrends.com/images/RClimate_GISS_trend_latest.png
    The past 17 years have had a slower progression, but the trend and data still show that we are in a progressively upward trend.
    Now we all know that there has been climate changes as I’ve heard the stories of the great forest across Africa (in what is now the Sahara Desert), but again the rates of these changes are the alarming issue. The weather has undoubtedly had a changing pattern from the effects of La-nina and the solar activity, but again even a Charles Koch funded study found there temperature changes to be accurate.
    http://www.blogforarizona.com/.a/6a00d8341bf80c53ef016768e6b94e970b-pi
    There have been recording on solar activity for the past 150 years and how this inter-acts with the raised CO2 levels is still a issue of much discussion, but the issue is does this really matter either way?
    Will is save us from having to stop the damage (and not spend a huge amount of money fixing the problems that it will create) from this issue, whether man-made or not, will cause?

    Like

  9. George Rebane Avatar

    It appears that GerryF’s 649pm is the next salvo in talking past each other. Please structure your point. What is the public good that you’re trying to achieve, and how can you tell when you’re getting closer to achieving it (i.e. give us something we can put numbers in)? The climate change, or worse, the AGW debate is going nowhere because the True Believers, those who want their hands in our wallets and guns to our heads, will not respond to such rigorous inquiries on the issue.

    Like

  10. Russ Steele Avatar

    Gerry@06:49PM
    I would be interested in your views on this latest publication examining the solar influence on global temperatures. Links at the Next Grand Minimum. http://nextgrandminimum.wordpress.com/2013/02/02/new-book-finds-at-least-63-of-global-warming-was-due-to-the-sun/
    It leaves the door open for some CO2 influence, but we have to remember that water vapor has the strongest of all influence of all the global warming gases and it has been declining according to NASA. Here’s the full paper http://www.leif.org/EOS/2012GL052094-pip.pdf See the chart starting at about 2005.
    I think we can all agree that the planet has been warming since the Little Ice Age, when the sun was much quieter, with fewer sunspots and now we are again entering a period of reduced spots. Solar cycle 24 is the lowest in a 100 years. History has shown when the spots decline the sun’s energy output declines and the earth gets colder.
    The ice core history has also shown that warming preceded the out gassing of CO2 from the ocean. It is possible that human caused CO2 could have some small influence on the global temperatures, but it is much smaller than the solar influence.
    Please let me know what you think about the findings in this publication?
    Oh, yes while you are on the Next Grand Minimum web page look around. You will find links to a paper showing that the 20th century solar activity was at the highest levels of the past 9,4oo years. No wonder we have seen a little bit of solar warming.

    Like

  11. Gregory Avatar

    Russ, I think it likely that GF is quite sure the people with NSF funding, the experts hired by the Feds, got it right, and that the ‘deniers’ are motivated by something other than a healthy scientific skepticism.
    Russ, (George too), I’m guessing he thinks you only disbelieve because you’re a right winger, and he probably firmly believes the fact that he’s on the left has nothing to do with his acceptance of what he’s been told is settled science, on par with evolution, whose proscriptions just happen to be congruous with those of the Left over recent decades. GF’s playbook is a common one: he need only keep pulling alarmist claims out of the bag, and eventually, you’ll either understand the science or be unmasked as a partisan player uninterested in the truth.
    GF, your problem is that the science is not settled, there is a large body of evidence that calls into question the basic claims of IPCC alarmists, and there was enough evidence in 2007 for me to decide that, on the basis of clouds and aerosols alone that the IPCC-cited general circulation models were false and the alarmism was not justified which moved me quickly from lukewarmer, to skeptic, to scoffer. Since ’07, none of the research that caught my attention has been falsified; it’s held up and been strengthened far beyond that of the earlier IPCC claims which are being walked back as I write.
    Gerry, the only reason there seems to have been a consensus is that working scientists who didn’t believe couldn’t afford to speak up due to the blistering personal and professional attacks they could be expected to endure for their apostasy. That has eased but the coast is not yet completely clear.
    You might be interested in sitting through a fascinating debate that took place a few years ago before some of the best contrary science was published, but this Intelligence Squared formal debate including RealClimate’s Gavin Schmidt for the warmists and MIT’s Richard Lindzen and the now late author Dr. Michael Crichton on the realist side, swayed the relatively sophisticated NYC audience from believing in the alarm away from their original opinion.
    There’s a reason there have not been more of these: alarmists lose badly when they face the knowledgeable opposition directly.
    “In this debate, the proposition was: “Global Warming Is Not a Crisis.” In a vote before the debate, about 30 percent of the audience agreed with the motion, while 57 percent were against and 13 percent undecided. The debate seemed to affect a number of people: Afterward, about 46 percent agreed with the motion, roughly 42 percent were opposed and about 12 percent were undecided.”
    Get the NPR podcast at
    http://www.npr.org/2007/03/22/9082151/global-warming-is-not-a-crisis

    Like

  12. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory (1237pm) makes an excellent point. Were the True Believers at all confident about their science (and not ashamed of their political agenda), they would seek to have public debates at every opportunity. Their best tactic continues to be what Stalin advised, just keep repeating the lie until it is believed.

    Like

  13. Gregory Avatar

    George, there you go again 😉
    There’s no need to call it the big lie. In fact, if you read the Climategate emails, the senior IPCC scientists chatting amongst themselves, it’s clear they believe in their conclusions, and are quite sure that delay, better instrumentation and better data will bear their theories out.

    Like

  14. Russ Steele Avatar

    Gregory@01:14PM
    Climate Scientist lying for the cause:
    James Annan, who was one of the warmer team, writes on his blog here: http://julesandjames.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/a-sensitive-matter.html
    “Interestingly, one of them stated quite openly in a meeting I attended a few years ago that he deliberately lied in these sort of elicitation exercises (i.e. exaggerating the probability of high sensitivity) in order to help motivate political action.”
    More here: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/02/03/josh-on-lying-for-the-cause/
    If one of the IPCC team was lying, how many more joined the big lie. We know that the IPCC models exaggerate CO2 sensitivity, and the data is proving that point. So, more than one must have lied about the “probability of high sensitivity’ for the cause.

    Like

  15. Gregory Avatar

    C’mon Russ, that “lying for the cause” when you look into it was the comparably small lie about the probability of the most catastrophic predictions. There’s no reason to think they didn’t think it was still going to be bad when they exaggerated the probability of the worst just to make sure their audience leaped into action the next day, afraid not to.
    Also, it is just plain wrong to stretch that anecdote into fitting all who preach doom. Many really do believe it, and many of those may suspect the reality isn’t going to be the worst that they fear but are afraid if they let up, really bad stuff will still happen.
    Many of those have also drunk the koolaid of believing if we just stay the course, we’ll have affordable alternative and renewable energy, but haven’t figured out it will only be affordable if they get used to being hot in the summer, cold in the winter, work within walking distance of where they sleep and be asleep when it’s dark unless they want to read by LED lamps. In short, back to the Bronze age.

    Like

  16. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    “In short, back to the Bronze age.”
    I call False Dilemma.
    There are any number of different paths that could lead us out of the wilderness. Greg, I know you like to keep this discussion narrowly focused on C02, but the problem is much broader than that, as we’ve discussed.
    Bottom line, it is irrefutable that humans are a huge factor in the ecosystem, and we absolutely must spend precious resources on discovering how to best leverage that factor toward a positive outcome, and that a variety of disparate political systems can support.
    This is not a futball match, it is a discussion about our very future as viable organisms on planet earth.

    Like

  17. Gerry Fedor Avatar
    Gerry Fedor

    Russ,
    I am away on business travel, but I will review this as soon as possible, and give you my thoughts.
    Thanks for your links!

    Like

  18. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 831pm – Your use of “irrefutable” piqued my interest. You seem to be stating that it’s irrefutable that humans have had a ‘bad’ (however that’s defined) impact on the ecosystem. If that’s not true then what kind of “huge factor” are you talking about, because, absent humans, we don’t know what kind of huge factors would have impacted the ecosystem in what way.
    But then humans are an existential part of earth. And now scientists are concluding that fossil fuels have kept earth from becoming an Easter Island, or Haiti, or most of Madagascar – in short, given humans, fossil fuels have saved the planet. So that’s a shot in the shorts to all those econuts who have not seen a shred of benefit in our burning of such fuels. Don’t get me wrong, we have been cleaning up our use of fossil fuels, and should continue to do so, but to abandon them?! come now.
    But anyone (perhaps not you) who claims that anything having to do with the complexities of human energy management and the earth’s climate has now become “irrefutable” should be prepared to have their reputation appended to those in history who taught the earth is flat, or ‘centered’ (Ptolemy), or night airs spreading disease, or the scientific consensus against relativity or quantum mechanics, etc. Al Gore of “the debate is over” fame also comes to mind.
    And hear the latest? The UN is finally, FINALLY admitting that the sun may play a significant role in the dynamics of earth’s climate. My, my, my. Anybody recall all the gallons of vitriol that was poured over all of us who dared suggest that? Russ Steele and Anthony Watts have been publicizing such reports for years now.
    http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/02/01/report-show-un-admitting-solar-activity-may-play-significant-role-in-global/

    Like

  19. Gregory Avatar

    Mike, what chutzpah. No, the ugly rhetoric and character assassinations aimed at all who have argued against the so-called consensus is not justified because all the claimed remedies are claimed to be necessary even without the threat of catastrophic warming.
    Look at the bright side, if you think this might be a bright side; if a Maunder Minimum is in our near future, millions if not billions may die from starvation as first winter then summer crops begin to fail. Will that brighten your day?

    Like

  20. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    George,
    What is irrefutable is that humans are part and parcel to the earth ecosystem. For example, the wooly mammoths would probably still be around if it weren’t for the fact that human hunters loved to herd them off cliffs, and then build their houses out of their bones, and eat their meat, and make clothes and other products from their hides.
    Not a big problem for the mammoths day to day, but over 50 or 70 centuries, yeah, game over.
    Now you have 7 billion plus humans going after diminishing resources. Burning coal is probably not the best approach. It’s a tough balance, as GG notes often, between rising standards of living brought on by greater energy usage, vs. the tough consequences of bringing those energy resources to bear.
    Michael A.

    Like

  21. Russ Steele Avatar

    Micheal@10:24PM
    The last ice age played a significant role in the demise of the Wooly Mammoths. Scientist are still digging them out of the ice.

    Like

  22. JesusBetterman Avatar

    “character assassinations” an obvious fail, or else we are dealing with Zombies, hmmmmm…..
    The humans also took down Wooly Mammoths, see story about bones found with 8 clovis points inside. These are substantial in size, 10 to 20 cm long. If you got hit by one, you’d be extinct too. Ban the Clovis Points!
    Now everybody, what is the maximum number of humans the planet should have on it, alive at one time? Are we crowded enough yet? Are we all happy campers?

    Like

  23. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Russ,
    Agreed that climate change was a contributing cause of their demise. But it took the human hunters to make them extinct: http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0060099

    Like

  24. Gregory Avatar

    Being slow and good tasting didn’t doom Gallus gallus or Bos taurus to extinction, and it’s amazing Mike had to reach back to prehistory to find an extinction that had a rhetorical punch.
    Burning coal might not be the best approach, but solar and wind may well be the worst approaches. In the absence of coercion, the market currently chooses coal over wind or solar, in short, low price and reliability over high price, high maintenance, low efficiency and known variability since the wind doesn’t always blow and the sun shines less than half the time on any given location.
    It is fundamentally wrong to use bad science as a political cudgel. Carbon isn’t a threat to the world, but the war on carbon is a threat to humanity. It’s time to stop it.
    To the Gallus galli out there, thanks. The wings yesterday were great.

    Like

  25. Gregory Avatar

    Maybe Mike should have cited polar bears as a species in danger from mankind. Maybe not; from an NPR story:
    “My humble plan was to become a hero of the environmental movement. I was going to go up to the Canadian Arctic, I was going to write this mournful elegy for the polar bears, at which point I’d be hailed as the next coming of John Muir and borne aloft on the shoulders of my environmental compatriots … So when I got up there, I started realizing polar bears were not in as bad a shape as the conventional wisdom had led me to believe, which was actually very heartening, but didn’t fit well with the book I’d been planning to write.”
    http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-inconvenient-truth-about-polar-bears.html

    Like

  26. Russ Steele Avatar

    Hey, Warmers, Listen Up: New paper finds natural variability controls CO2 levels, not man
    Abstract: Tropical explosive volcanism is one of the most important natural factors that significantly impact the climate system and the carbon cycle on annual to multi-decadal time scales. The three largest explosive eruptions in the last 50 years – Agung, El Chichón, and Pinatubo – occurred in spring/summer in conjunction with El Niño events and left distinct negative signals in the observational temperature and CO2 records.However, confounding factors such as seasonal variability and El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO) may obscure the forcing-response relationship. We determine for the first time the extent to which initial conditions, i.e. season and phase of the ENSO, and internal variability influence the coupled climate and carbon cycle response to volcanic forcing and how this affects estimates of the terrestrial and oceanic carbon sinks. Ensemble simulations with the Earth System Model CSM1.4-carbon predict that the atmospheric CO2 response is ~60% larger when a volcanic eruption occurs during El Niño and in winter than during La Niña conditions. Our simulations suggest that the Pinatubo eruption contributed 11 ± 6% to the 25 Pg terrestrial carbon sink inferred over the decade 1990-1999 and -2 ± 1% to the 22 Pg oceanic carbon sink. In contrast to recent claims, trends in the airborne fraction of anthropogenic carbon cannot be detected when accounting for the decadal-scale influence of explosive volcanism and related uncertainties. Our results highlight the importance of considering the role of natural variability in the carbon cycle for interpretation of observations and for data-model intercomparison.

    Like

  27. George Rebane Avatar

    re RussS 735pm – this has been the point all along. We have known so little about earth’s carbon cycle – huge sources and sinks of the natural variety have been recently discovered – that to ascribe measurable temp variations to the tons of CO2 we pump out is at best grant driven scientific hubris.
    As I’ve tried to educate readers here, citing seemingly big numbers (like tons of CO2 generated by man) without a basis of total tons generated (by terrestrial processes and extra-terrestrial influences) is penultimate pandering to the innumerate. Good update Russ.

    Like

  28. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Greg,
    Humans have been a prehistorical cause of extinction, and they are a cause today:
    http://www.livescience.com/13038-humans-causing-sixth-mass-extinction.html
    https://people.ifm.liu.se/permi/PlantEcology/Ecography93.pdf

    Like

Leave a comment