Rebane's Ruminations
January 2013
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George Rebane

The 14dec12 Newtown massacre has been blown into a celebrated “crisis” for the nation’s gun ban contingent.  And President Obama has made certain that this crisis will also not go to waste in his overarching program that is fundamentally transforming America.  He gave VP Joe Biden the job of fashioning the next set of regulations that will further criminalize law abiding citizens who own and bear guns.  Remarkably (or not), Biden will present his panel’s rapidly reached conclusions and resulting recommendations within the next few days.

MinutemenThe Second Amendment is one of the two or three major dividers in our ideologically polarized country.  And its public debate (mirrored in these pages) shines a bright light on the enormous differences that separate our self-declared progressives from those who consider themselves to be classic liberals and libertarians – more compactly labeled our Left and Right.

The major element of debate about the extent of public ownership of guns is their beneficial functions, if any, in a free, open, and liberal society that intends to remain so.  These functions are summarized in gun uses for 1) self-defense, 2) sport (including hunting), and the maintenance of 3) par force (q.v.) against a government turned rogue.


The following factors enter the debate as propositions and even axioms (self-evident truths).  This list is arbitrarily ordered and no doubt incomplete.

1.    Self-defense is not a salutary function of a private citizen.  Maintaining the safety of a citizen in his person is the role of the state through its local constabularies.  (Private individuals defending themselves are “practicing vigilantism” and “taking the law into their own hands”.)
2.    Sporting uses of firearms builds and reinforces the darker aspects of human character, and does not benefit the maintenance of an amiable society.
3.    The sport killing of animals is a barbaric throwback that needs to be eliminated from civilized society.
4.    The Bastiat Triangle of rights is not required to maintain liberal systems of governance.  It is a throwback to an age that no longer exists or informs us.
5.    The Bastiat Triangle is fundamental to any and every constituting formalism that unites a free people in an enduring manner.  Our Founders embedded these rights in our Constitution.
6.    It is the role of the federal government to interpret the Second Amendment and to enforce its uniform interpretation across the land.
7.    All governments not actively kept in check by their governed tend toward autocracy (usually through democratically initiated and subsequently forced redistribution of wealth, dispersing favored entitlements, and debasing the currency).
8.    Powers and collective functions in society should accrue without limit to the highest levels of government because it has the broadest purview of social needs and can assemble the qualified elites to exercise them for the greatest good.
9.    Powers and collective functions in society should accrue within limits to the lowest levels of government because these have the most accurate and immediate purview of local social needs, and can execute them with minimum impact on individual liberties.
10.    The main role of liberal and broad ownership of weapons in a free society is to enable citizens to band together as the check of last resort against a rogue government.  Government should always be at the mercy of its citizens, deporting itself accordingly by enabling its own renewal and, if necessary, replacement through established legal and facile means.  Government’s main role is to maintain the sovereignty of the nation (a nation and its government are not the same).
11.     Government is the final and proper repository of its citizens’ values, mores, and social goals.  Opposition to government, especially one based on its citizens’ use of force, is sedition, and should be dealt with swiftly and severely for the greater good of society.  To maintain the peace, government is justified to use all means necessary (especially as it pertains to gun ownership) to prevent its restraint or its replacement by its citizenry.
12.    For the greatest social good, democracy should be unbridled, practiced nationally, and applied over the broadest bases to let the people decide all levels of public policy and public norms.  The collective always makes the wisest decisions, especially as these affect the permitted individual behaviors in a just society.  The current will of the people should not be inhibited by dated and outmoded maxims.
13.    For the greatest social good, democracy should be bridled, practiced locally (in a distributed manner; see also subsidiarity), and applied in the large through republican mechanisms founded on an established, broadly understood, amendable, and durable basis (e.g. the Constitution) for the nation’s laws.  Collective will is both volatile and unreliable, and therefore should be invoked judiciously and exercised prudently in order to sustainably provide for the broadest liberties of a free people.

So now we have an orchestrated public policy circus going on in Washington through a panel headed arguably by the administration’s chief political clown.  And after the charade of meeting with parties “expressing all viewpoints”, the panel will rush out its politically polished recommendations that will have no bearing on preventing the kind of events that gave rise to this latest rush to judgment.  However, it will provide a framework for gun ban acolytes nationwide to ratchet down another notch or two the people’s right to own and bear arms.

The lamestream will play its compliant role and trumpet the imagined ‘benefits’ of the new provisions while lamenting that more was not done to roll back the nation’s ‘gun culture’.  It will do this by sticking a mike in the faces of the bereaved loved ones and our progressive pundits whose intellectual peaks will again be revealed by arguments such as – ‘But what if it were your child who got shot; wouldn’t you do everything possible to prevent that from happening again?’  Their elicited correct answer is one that appeals to simple minds who have little ability to see that their concern is not even being addressed, and in the larger sense that their wellbeing is jeopardized by a growing Leviathan.

A saner society would make its decisions based on realities and facts relating aggregate probabilities and likelihoods, not on emotional pyrotechnics based on low probability anecdotal happenings.  But this is not to be, for in the final argument the socialist sees no utility in the widespread ownership of weapons.  In fact, to them that ownership is only a liability that obstructs all intents and means to achieve a centrally managed society that can ultimately be populated by enlightened and correctly behaving altruists whom Marx labeled “the communist man”.  And this part of the debate, dear reader, is something that will scarcely see the light of day in this ‘land of the free and home of the brave’.  The focus will remain fixed on the proper needs of deer and duck hunting.

[13jan13 update]  In my sixty years of observing our country’s Presidents, never have I seen the likes of Barak Hussein Obama.  If America survives, I believe history will remember him as the nation’s greatest divider.   We now have Americans starting to build redoubt communities where the like-minded will gather to practice their life styles and be in a place to defend their way of life if/when the time of troubles comes to this land.  The latter looks more and more likely as Obama enlarges his imperial presidency.

The Citadel is the name of one (the first?) of these redoubt communities that is now taking applications for residents of a fortress like city to be built in western Idaho.  More here.

Also heard on the grapevine – Obama’s hard left is beginning to have second thoughts about his promoting a big ratchet on the road to an international gun ban.  The response to the emotional nonsense coming out of Washington after Newtown is without precedence.  Tens of millions of guns and accessories (e.g. large cap magazines) have been sold, ammunition is gone from gun shop shelves, and waiting lists are long for the AR type long guns.  Prices have gone through the roof.

This coming Saturday 19 January 2013 there will be nationwide demonstrations in support of the Second Amendment at local gun stores and shooting ranges.  As a lifelong NRA member, shooting enthusiast, and promoter of an armed citizenry, I intend to throw in my ‘stubborn ounces’ in opposition to the latest managed hysteria to disarm America.

You say the little efforts that I make
will do no good; they never will prevail
to tip the hovering scale
where justice hangs in balance.

I don’t think I ever thought they would.
But I am prejudiced beyond debate
in favor of my right to choose which side
shall feel the stubborn ounces of my weight.
(Bonaro Overstreet)

Posted in , , , ,

214 responses to “Gun Control 2013 (updated 13jan13)”

  1. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Basing policy on the horrified looks in the eyes of survivors, it the typical pandering polemics used by either the ignorant and/or those with a more sinister agenda.
    Pathos trumps reason and is the cheapest rhetorical mode of persuasion. It’s the Coca-Cola of theoretical nutrition. “How can we look into the eyes of those poor Sandy Hook children and not act!” Utter bullshit and insulting to our kindest sensibilities. Does my ass look big in these massacre jeans, honey?
    It’s really no different than the anti-abortion crowd does with pictures of aborted fetuses? Or the Westboro Baptist Church and their putrid protest signage? Or are these more rational approaches to influence people’s opinions and subsequent laws?
    My point is, as I believe your point is, our approach to these issues is irrational. Because scaring people, works. Thinking takes more (too much) work. I’m beginning to think we’re not worthy of our Republic due to our stupidity. Or better, we’re getting exactly the government we deserve.

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  2. Jesus Betterman Avatar

    Ryan and George, Money talks, bullshit walks.
    Until you put the fear of losing cash into the minds of those who possess and can transfer guns into the wrong hands, through inattention or deliberate profit motive, you will not reduce the body count.

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  3. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Doug-
    Just so we’re clear. I don’t like guns. But not because I’m afraid of them or the people who possess them. I have no issue with background checks and bonded/insured weapons. I do not see how that infringes on one’s right to bear arms in any significant way. Instead of “gun control,” perhaps the movement should use terms like “more regulated.” At least you’d be sharing the same language. Right now, the anti-gun crowd is subtly implying that gun rights people tacitly approve of massacres by opposing new regulations. That’s not a winning proposition.
    Ben-
    That’s certainly one of the reasons. But not the only one. The 2nd Amendment’s “intentions” are varied. And certainly the final drafts look very different than the first ones as subsequent revisions muted the importance of the Militia. And later drafts equivocated somewhat on whether one needed to be apart of a well regulated Militia to bear firearms.
    What if the first Amendment read like this:
    “A well educated citizenry, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear books, shall not be infringed.”
    How would we interpret that?

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  4. George Rebane Avatar

    JesusB 942am – pre-bonding guns history gives lie to your conclusion. Perhaps it was another culture that then kept us from killing each other when guns could and were carried freely.

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  5. Jesus Betterman Avatar

    “A well educated citizenry, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear books, shall not be infringed.”
    How would we interpret that?
    as legalizing off tracking betting by everyone?
    If there are going to be no new regulations, then nothing is going to change, and the killings will continue. Going on as we have been is simply not an option, if we want change. My guess is that encouraging armed schools will result in even more school killings. I assume you know of “death by police fire” being a form of suicide? The Sandy Hook shooter was seconds away from that.

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  6. Jesus Betterman Avatar

    ” pre-bonding guns history gives lie to your conclusion”
    not sure where such history is found.
    as for earlier times in the American west, especially in Gold country, the hammer was preferred, while the person was sleeping out of doors, near their claim. less likely to wake anyone else up, while searching for the dead man’s stash.
    I think that there is very little in low population density 1800’s America and today’s canyonized cities, that offers a fair direct comparison.

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  7. Gregory Avatar

    The Keachie sock both complains about the length of the thread, and is the main contributor to the length.
    Here’s a take from Reason that’s worth reading:
    “Over the past 20 years or so, more guns are in circulation and violent crime is down. So is violent crime that uses guns. Murders are down, too, even as video games and movies and music and everything else are filled with more fantasy violence than ever. For god’s sake, even mass shootings are not becoming more common. If ever there was a case to stand pat in terms of public policy, the state of gun control provides it (and that’s without even delving into the fact that Supreme Court has recently validated a personal right to own guns in two landmark cases). It’s probably always been the case but certainly since the start of 21st century, it seems like we legislate only by crisis-mongering and the results have not been good: The PATRIOT Act, the Iraq War, TARP, fiscal cliff deals, you name it. Would that cooler heads prevailed then and now.”
    I wonder if the rush to get ‘er done has more to do with getting legislation into place before all the details about the Newtown shooter are released by authorities and people realize none of the new laws would have done a thing to hinder it.

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  8. George Rebane Avatar

    re JesusB’s 1039am – that lost history you seek was still being practiced as little as 50 years ago. I have described that culture numerous times in these pages since I and so many others lived through it. And Greg’s 1100am is spot on and germain to the current hysteria as have been its prequels over the years.

    In passing, I repeat that RR is a continuing and expanding record of thoughts, ideas, and opinions, primarily mine, but also in the larger sense a record of the thoughts of all who regularly comment here. Demands by commenters, those with short memories or deficient search energy, that I repeat again and again what is already written here will in the most part be ignored. What I will respond to, however, is a commenter who cites my stated position on some issue or facet with which he finds errors in fact and/or logic. In fact, such citations (not baseless allegations) that apply to issues new and/or re-examined will be much welcomed.

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  9. Walt Avatar

    Radical LIBS just don’t know when to stop.
    First they want to ban our guns “to stop the killing” ( ya,, right)
    and at the vary same time protect, and make excuses for, violent movies and video games.
    Now, right out of the box, some gun hating LIB, goes and makes a video game
    with one of the “targets” being of the President of the NRA.
    Here is the full story.
    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/01/15/photos-from-new-bullet-to-the-head-of-the-nra-computer-game-will-horrify-you/

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  10. George Rebane Avatar

    Walt 227pm – Just returned from a local hardware store, and saw a slew of mostly liberal bumper stickers. Your comment reminds me of what I just saw, what we all see and have learned to just overlook. But should we?
    These bumper stickers were full of hate – pure and simple. Calling out Republicans, conservatives, and Tea Party members as being everything from “greedy”, “killers”, “murderers”, “gun nuts”, “assholes”, … seems to be standard fare on the back windows and bumpers of vehicles that also include the usual Obama logo and various eco-slogans. Why don’t we see similar vitriol from the Right? Their bumper stickers attack policies and ideological tenets of the Left. I haven’t seen any such vile reciprocation, am I overlooking something?

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  11. Walt Avatar

    It’s that well known double standard.( The Tea Party is a terrorist group, and OWS is a harmless, Sunday social club. Care to compare arrest records? LOL) It’s OK when “they” are over the top offencive, but when they get a taste of their own words and attitude,they nut up. They would more than love to send you the bill for the therapist (rent a buddy) your comments made them go see.
    I read something interesting today, and remember hearing about it, but no more came of it.
    An AR was recovered from the car the killer drove. So how many really did he have? How come video footage hasn’t been released? I’m sure there is plenty that doesn’t show any carnage. Nothing showing the killer with an AR. That’s not like our anti gun media. If there is something I missed, my apologies.

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  12. George Rebane Avatar

    Walt 624pm – Excellent point Walt. I too have not seen any evidence that an AR was used by the killer. But there were immediate reports that an AR was found in the killer’s car. How many indeed?

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  13. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Well here’s a happy community for Geirge and Walt and all the rest to move to: http://www.politicususa.com/gun-nuts-build-2000-acre-citadel-idahos-american-redoubt.html

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  14. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    George wrote: “Just returned from a local hardware store, and saw a slew of mostly liberal bumper stickers.”
    Huh? Doesn’t sound like any “local” hardware store that I’m aware of! LOL

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  15. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    Guns are like drugs for most Americans; they are over prescribed, results are not guaranteed, and nasty side effects can occur when they are not used according to directions or mixed with alcohol or other drugs. Gun ownership should be treated with at least the same level of regulation as automobiles and auto registration- vehicles are registered, drivers need licenses, and there are different classes of driver licenses for different types of vehicles. Just as kids should not be given the keys to the car, the keys to the gun safe should not be given to kids to play with (gun regulations could be varied for farm use as with off-road vehicles).
    The paranoid thinking that, “the next step is to get us to all register our guns so “they” can take them away from us”, is laughable.
    Look how well the government controls prescription and illegal drug abuse.
    The whole redoubt community idea shows how wacked out the right wing extremists have become. Northern Idaho seems to have become the playground of white racists, right wing extremists, wannabe Rambos, KKK, etc. (probably more than a few meth stills also up there to support the “cause”).
    Here are some articles about some of the like-minded neighbors in that hood.
    http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2012/11/white_supremacist_plans_northe.html
    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/19/10763789-n-idaho-white-supremacist-runs-for-sheriff?lite
    http://www.nwnewsnetwork.org/post/failed-compound-illustrates-disarray-white-supremacy-movement

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  16. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK 721am – your hot flash was already covered here. See the 13jan13 update to this post. However, perhaps the comment does serve to illustrate the attentiveness of the liberal mind since you are joined by BradC and MichaelA. BradC’s vitriol serves to underline my report on leftwing bumperstickers which, BTW, were all quite visible in the B&C parking lot. I suppose we all see what we want to see – Kahneman named it ‘confirmation bias’.
    But I will say that you liberals are truly a scary bunch when we listen to how you describe people you don’t like, and what you want to do to and about them. Why is it that the Right always wants to escape the Left, and the Left seeks to pursue and control?

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  17. Ryan Mount Avatar

    George, the American Left tends to takes a shotgun approach to a myriad of issues. Pardon the metaphor. On any day there can be several causes that need attention: the environment, ADA lawsuits, meditation retreats with coffee enemas, etc.
    Ergo, the more bumper stickers one has on the back of their car, the more truthiness they have. It’s a simple law of averages: at least one of the shotgun pellets will hit it mark.
    That said, I’m not so sure the Right has monopoly on good behavior. However, given that they are less prone to sloganize the backs of their cars with bumper stickers, perhaps the scope of their vitriol seems less. But then again, Conservatives tend to keep their opinions to themselves for one reason or another.

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  18. George Rebane Avatar

    RyanM 904am – No claim made of the Right’s “monopoly on good behavior”. But I definitely claim the tremendous asymmetry between the public behaviors of those espousing conservative/libertarian views and those demonstrating for collectivist causes. That record alone confirms the proposition that almost all revolutions are started by collectivists – only the American and the older Swiss revolutions come to mind that were started by people seeking governments that had a smaller role in their lives.
    However, as even these pages reveal, the socialists are constantly pointing fingers at the conservatives as being a hair trigger away from revolting. A total misunderstanding of history and the currents of today’s polarization, but also a perfect expression of the leftwing MO of painting your opposition with exactly the opposite attributes of those expressed and demonstrated.

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  19. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Oh, I see. You were talking about bumper stickers in the parking lot!! I thought you meant inside the store, for sale.
    LOL!!
    My own take on bumper sticker silliness is that people with all kinds of opinions are equal opportunity offenders. I disagree completely that one side is ruder than the other; they’re all equally rude.
    I think bumper stickers on your daily driver are gauche. I haven’t had one on a car since the 1980s, when I gave ’em up. Now my art truck is something different altogether: that baby sports an NRA sticker, USM Semper Fi!, and a “Bush for Prisoner” sticker. Equal opportunity gauche-i-ness is the best was to go if you are trying to achieve maximum rudeness.

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  20. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    George, yes, I saw your 13jan13 update on 13jan13, googled the Citadel site, and could only shake my head in wonderment. BTW – I love the AR ad at the top of the page! That pretty much says it all.
    No vitriol here, just illustrating that, as you said, “we see what we want to see”. Your Citadel reference seems to only exacerbate any misunderstanding the left might have about a conservative revolt.
    I am trying to imagine what an average day at the Citadel will look like. Will it be a bunch of Tea Party patriots simply sitting around the bridge table strapped with their hoglegs like some wild west saloon in a John Wayne movie? Will their crenelated ranch style homes be manned by armed sentries?
    Will trap and skeet be offered from the parapets of the CItadel clubhouse/castle?
    How do you see life at the Citadel?
    A case could be made that Nevada County has been settled by a bunch of “flower people” who just want to grow pot and live off the land – potential and recent immigrants to Northern Idaho and the rest of the “American Redoubt” just seem to want a return to their ideas of “simpler” times.
    Ryan, I see plenty of Tea Party, NRA, and political, etc. bumper stickers around here and have seen and heard more than a few conservative opinions.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8Q-sRdV7SY

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  21. Gregory Avatar

    I just heard that paragon, Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, state that his senate Judiciary Committee will be holding hearings in two weeks on Assault weapons and large capacity magazines. He was specific that in Vermont, hunters were limited to 6 cartridges and that childred should have more protection than deer do.
    The Senator didn’t mention that not only were “assault weapons” and other semi-automatic rifles (that don’t look like M16’s) and large capacity magazines legal in Vermont, honest-to-Zarquon machine guns are legal in Vermont.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state#Vermont
    Machine guns are NFA (National Firearms Act) weapons, unrestricted in Vermont. Also Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, West Virgina and Wyoming. A few other states allow NFA items with some restriction.
    Leahy wants to get rid of guns that look like military weapons; the above states allow the real thing, assuming you can afford one, as the prices have gone up since the Feds froze the number available. You need to be rich and living in the right state.

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  22. Ryan Mount Avatar

    I make all of my decisions based on bumper stickers and decals.
    Therefore, I’m going to hold a bake sale to determine if Bush lied and soldiers died, because the best things in life aren’t things, they’re birth certificates.

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  23. Gregory Avatar

    Ryan, bumper stickers are more of a declaration of tribal affiliation than a rational discourse.

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  24. earlcrabb Avatar

    Most of my living relatives reside in Bonner County, Idaho. When mom passed away in ’08, two of my uncles came down for the funeral so I asked if my suspicions about Grandpa were true; that he was a member of the Klan. One unc confirmed it was true, but the other one had no idea that his pop was a racist.
    In fact, there are so many ex-Nevada County natives living in that area that it should probably qualify as a sister city. (And the favorite sister is Sarah Palin, who was born there.)
    If you’ve never experienced Sandpoint, you are missing one of the most beautiful places on the planet. Most of the locals keep their guns close when out picking huckleberries or fishing, not because of the nutcases, but due to the many bears that also call it home. I’ve seen them up close, and you wouldn’t want to mess with them.

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  25. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Bumper stickers are more of a declaration of tribal affiliation than a rational discourse.
    Fashion. It’s funny how some people discuss issues with bumper sticker-like rhetoric.
    Speaking of which, I’ve always considered the band Rage Against the Machine the music equivalent of a bumper sticker.

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  26. Walt Avatar

    Here is a flashback of “O”‘s previous stance on criminals with guns.
    In 1999, State Senator Barack Obama voted “present” on a bill that would require adult prosecution for discharging a gun in or near a school.
    That legislation came as a response to the tragic Columbine High School shooting that year.
    SB 759 provided that anyone 15 years of age or older charged with aggravated battery with a weapon in school or within 1,000 feet of a school would be charged as an adult.
    It passed the Illinois State Senate in a 52-1 vote, with 5 members voting present — including Obama.
    But now that he is the mighty “O”, things are now somehow different.
    I’m not sure if this has been covered in earlier posts, if it has, my apologies.
    Since our LIBS love to attack anything “racist”, and call for it’s immediate removal, then they better see things our way when it comes to gun laws, and here is the reason why.
    The vary first restrictive gun laws were written for they vary porpoise of keeping guns out of the hands of minorities. The revisionists haven’t caught up with that bit of history yet.
    So get with the program Lefties, Here is your big chance to set things straight.
    You guys seem to be experts at attacking anything racist, or with racist roots.
    But I guess that since it’s one of your own doing the “restricting”, and a minority ta’boot, that’s fine and dandy. Restrict away.
    and in closing,,, It’s clear that “O” didn’t read his own heath care law(s)(tax)
    .. There is that little law in there that is supposed to keep the Doctors from asking about guns in the home. That’s 180 deg. from what he “proposed”(signed) today. So again we see how “O” and Co. try and have things both ways.

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  27. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Sorry George, I missed your update, have been busy tracking Sandy Hook False Flag stuff elsewhere, came by that link, and thought you’d like it. BTW, how many daisy cutters would it take to wipe out the 3,000 acres, and the 7 to 8 mile long wall (rough guess) surrounding it, and were are they getting food from?
    Meanwhile, elsewhere, False Flag stories about Sandy Hook are multiplying like bacteria, growing in cultures both right and left, and FB is now Big Brother:
    How am I feeling, Facebook? You should know, I am really, really ticked off, at YOU! In a thread I started, you’ve run amuck! At this point I could care less about the damn guns being discussed in the thread. Where are all the comments and serious discussion???? Who stole my free speech and that of others???? FACEBOOK the DESTROYER! I just got a note about posting elsewhere, that asked if an eight sentence paragraph might be spam, after I had typed in 8 sentences of original material, and for what, no cuss words, nothing???? FB I may be about to unfriend you.
    This really happened, probably somebody just didn’t like the points being made and decided to trash the whole thread by crying to FB about spam or or such.
    At least here I can say that those who fail at the “Keep” section of the 2nd ought to be taken out and shot for dereliction of duty, and have it stick. I see Greg is boning up on anthro, good comment about bumper stickers, and Ryan adds to the mix with great humor. If Cirino’s closes, will the absence of gin and tonics lose that? I hope not.

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  28. Gregory Avatar

    “Greg is boning up on anthro”
    No, I am not, and I see the root Keachie sock still hasn’t boned up on reading comprehension.
    Ryan, one of the funniest moments on Saturday Night Live in the past was with guest host Steve Forbes during an election cycle he was active in, who did one skit as Teve Torbes, which ended with a Bob Dole character (Norm McDonald) exclaiming, “Teve Torbes, tuck off!”. But that skit wasn’t as funny as the look on the band’s face when “Rage Against the Machine!” was exclaimed by Forbes as they began to play their set.
    Suck up to the machine…

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  29. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    In the Old West, they used to hang horse thieves, but no where in the Constitution does it mention horse thieves. Obviously horses (cars today) are more important to Americans than guns, or the Constitution. Still no answer to the daisy cutter question? So here’s another one. How much does it cost to build a 7 mile wall? My guess is that whoever is doing this owns the land, and will make a fortune off of selling and then reclaiming defaulters with stars and guns in their eyes. BTW, Hollywood can have fun with the idea, with urban hordes storming the place. Where will they store how much food?

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  30. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK 242pm – At times you have chastised us for having no sense of humor and taking your comments too seriously. Just to be sure, I assume that you’re working yourself through one of those periods now.

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  31. Walt Avatar

    You might want to read up on just why horse and cattle thieves were hung
    from the first tree with a strong limb.
    Here is a hint to get you in the right direction. It had to do with a man dieing in the frontier left with no mode of transportation. ( that just a little part of it. Now do your own mining to find the rest.
    And back then justice was harsh, and swift. To the tune of just weeks and months, instead of months, years, and decades today.( Heck.. Don’t like your current gender? No problem. Do a good crime, get some time, and the taxpayer will pay for your operation.

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  32. Gregory Avatar

    Walt, a short, apocryphal story that may have happened…
    “Judge, why did you let the killer walk away, but sentenced the horse thief to hang?”
    “Well, I reckon I’ve met men who needed killing but I ain’t never seen a horse that needed to be stolen.”

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  33. George Rebane Avatar

    re Walt’s 336pm – Gentlemen, yes justice was often swift in the old West if not accurate. Moreover, proper ladies and children were held in the highest regard. More than once a drunken town rowdie was strung up from the nearest lamppost for not showing proper deference, let alone slighting, a member of the polite fair sex.
    And did you know that a rather firm version of the horse thieving law is still on the books in California? Not that long ago a judge in Owens Valley sentenced two high country hoodlums to serious jail time after they stole the backpacks of campers absent from their camp site. The invoked horse stealing law allowed the judge to conclude that in the high country a backpack is as critical to survival as was a horse to a traveler in olden times.
    Finally, when we refer to men being ‘hung’, it is to be taken as a compliment to the heroic proportions of their external plumbing. The condemned may also be hung, but when executed, he is then referred to as being ‘hanged’.

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  34. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Glad we’re all having a good laugh, and good stories. Now about the notion that survival is a value, how does that apply at Sandy Hook? Maybe killing 1st graders the week before Christmas trumps all the 2nd amendment fol de rah in ways the members of the NRA just don’t really have the ability to comprehend?
    Enough is enough, time to fix this, and from here on out, you can consider every mass shooting to be one more nail in the NRA’s coffin. They’re welding the manholes shut for the inaugural parade, I hope that will be enough….

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  35. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Did Todd run out of Viagra? I would have figured he’d of chimed in by now…

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  36. Gregory Avatar

    Keach, a sick young man whose mom was trying to get committed went berserk. Shooting a 1st grader 11 times isn’t just murder, it’s a homicidal rage driven by irrational hate, whether done once or 27 times. As reported in the CS Monitor, “Connecticut’s civil commitment laws are among the most restrictive in the nation when it comes to getting help for a loved one in psychiatric crisis,” said Kristina Ragosta, senior legislative and policy counsel for the Treatment Advocacy Center in Arlington, Va., which pushes to make it easier to commit people for treatment before they become dangerous.”
    So Connecticut, long time cradle of firearms manufacturing in the USA, made a choice to hold primary the right for the mentally ill to refuse treatment. Now, where is that “if one child is saved, how can we not do something?” when it comes to getting the ill committed, for their sake and ours? Connecticut’s legislature voted down a law that would have done just that last March, and it’s a tragedy that they didn’t.

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  37. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    It starts with a mom that keeps her guns lock away altogether from her obviously screwy son, instead to encouraging him to learn to shoot. The “Keep” part of the 2nd Amendment was totally ignored, and by actively taking him to the gun range, totally disrespected.

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  38. Gregory Avatar

    There is no “keep” part of the 2nd amendment, Keach, that any court has read like you’ve misread it.
    We don’t know any details about how she kept them, but in any case, it started with his mental illness, and she was by all accounts trying to get him into treatment.
    There is virtually no “gun owner control” measure that will keep guns away from a wealthy woman, and gun owners across the country are no more responsible for it than Castro Street is responsible for Jerry Sandusky.

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  39. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    A wealthy woman who wants to hang onto her wealth, who stands to lose it if her guns go feral, she’ll be much more likely to lock them up. If a backpack can become a horse, some gun victim’s survivors will begin to push for the concept. I’ll make sure their lawyers know about it.

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  40. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    George Washington, on Greg’s interpretation of the word “keep” as it IS found in the 3nd amendment:
    “SLAP, SLAPPIY, SLAP SLAP SLAP”
    “4 weeks on kitchen patrol! Mr. No Ideas at All”

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  41. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    “2nd amendment” not 3rd

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  42. Gregory Avatar

    There is no “keep” part of the 2nd amendment, Keach, that any court has read like you’ve misread it.
    It’s not the 10 Commandments, it’s the Bill of Rights. Thou shalt keep your arms isn’t to be found.

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  43. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    You can’t bear if you don’t keep, so keep on truckin’, Greg.

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  44. Gregory Avatar

    Keach, keep in 18th century colonial English, meant “own”, not “attached forever”. Then there’s the pesky fact that none of the Bill of Rights are laws that restrict people; they restrict the government, that’s the whole point.
    Tell me, you’re still substitute teaching and you’ve mentioned you’ve discussed the Sandy Hook tragedy and guns in class. Have you discussed this “keep” theory of yours in any Nevada County public school classroom?

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  45. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    No Greg, I thought up the theory weeks afterwards. The day of the event I was in shock, as most humans were. I will be sending The Union a very complete and concise essay, covering the topic, and including references to George’s horses and backpacks case (thanks, George!). Thus, if I were to discuss it in class, it would become part of current events, so no, you can’t go whiney crybaby again to either the local or state sup to yank my credential. Sorry.

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  46. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    I’m reasonably certain, that the Founding Fathers, in writing the Second Amendment, would be appalled at the notion that a citizen would through inattention, carelessness, or sheer greed, would allow a gun in the hands of the local village idiot, and, I’m also reasonably certain, that it did not occur to them that such protections would need to be written down.
    They were busy men, with a country to build, and today we have Greg, doing just the opposite. Now stop and think, do you really want to go to court and argue some more in favor of letting easier commitments to the loony bin to cut down on gun violence, instead up getting people to lock them up better? Which path, both are good, is more likely to have more of an effect sooner on reducing George’s body count? Which is easier to implement? The NRA tied the hands of the Federal ATF from developing databases of either the mentally bewildered or the serial numbers of all the guns in the country. It really is time to admit the amount of grief caused by these toys in circulation is harming this country far more than any enjoyment experienced by the members of the NRA, be it fantasies of The Citadel against the USAF, or unloading a clip in Vegas, is worth.
    BTW Greg, a Keep is the inner most part of a castle, the refuge of last resort. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep as I learned from Heinlein back in elementary school.

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  47. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK 740am – “…Citadel against the USAF, …” and your ongoing and extraordinary interpretation of the 2nd Amendment’s “keep” make me think that responding to your comments is an exercise in futility since you don’t even acknowledge the responses.
    In any event, I ask readers to note that Mr Keachie has no data whatsoever to back up his claim that “It really is time to admit the amount of grief caused by these toys in circulation is harming this country far more than any enjoyment experienced by the members of the NRA,…” His railings against the effective ownership of guns are those of a man beset by his heartfelt emotions which now serve as surrogates for reason.

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  48. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    And of course it is perfectly reasonable and logical to assume that the 300 million handguns and long rifles in circulation will be able to put down a tyrannical government? Good one!
    In case you hadn’t noticed, the corporate powers have already made a total mockery of the Jeffersonian vision for this country, and all those guns have done nothing to stop it.

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  49. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK 918am – Perhaps you also missed this in the above comment stream.
    “On ‘The Great Divide …’ piece I posted the following comment re gun control. It is the argument that the Left never wants to address about the purpose and function of par force.
    MichaelA 1029am – Right on schedule. That argument against the 2nd Amend and the continued viability of the Constitution is a classical liberal shibboleth. It assumes that any rebellion will be a stasist standoff between a permanently underarmed populace and a permanently superior state sponsored military, with its foregone outcome. This is a gross error that has been disproved an uncounted number of times, and as recently as by the Arab spring uprisings and the current civil war in Syria. And please reread my par force paper so we don’t have to go around this ‘hydrogen bomb in the basement’ nonsense again.
    A rogue government will immediately seek to brand armed citizen resistance against it as fomented by foreign terrorists or a sedition by a minority (the latter is technically correct). Any successful resistance must stay alive long enough to get its message out to the nation, and to the armed forces. Anyone who has been in the US military knows how that institution will respond when asked to engage underarmed citizens willing to lay down their lives for liberty.
    As history has shown, it is all in how well any resistance can go through its fragile birth and make its cause known. That is why tyrants and pre-rogue governments want a disarmed populace so that massive arrests can take place quickly and quietly. It was ever thus. Posted by: George Rebane | 09 January 2013 at 11:12 AM
    Posted by: George Rebane | 12 January 2013 at 09:01 AM”

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  50. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    George, the corporations have already bought out the government, and your militias have done nothing to stop them. Those corporations have bought and paid for exactly the government they want, the one that will keep the little people thinking they actually control things, at least in a very limited way.

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