Rebane's Ruminations
January 2013
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George Rebane

The 14dec12 Newtown massacre has been blown into a celebrated “crisis” for the nation’s gun ban contingent.  And President Obama has made certain that this crisis will also not go to waste in his overarching program that is fundamentally transforming America.  He gave VP Joe Biden the job of fashioning the next set of regulations that will further criminalize law abiding citizens who own and bear guns.  Remarkably (or not), Biden will present his panel’s rapidly reached conclusions and resulting recommendations within the next few days.

MinutemenThe Second Amendment is one of the two or three major dividers in our ideologically polarized country.  And its public debate (mirrored in these pages) shines a bright light on the enormous differences that separate our self-declared progressives from those who consider themselves to be classic liberals and libertarians – more compactly labeled our Left and Right.

The major element of debate about the extent of public ownership of guns is their beneficial functions, if any, in a free, open, and liberal society that intends to remain so.  These functions are summarized in gun uses for 1) self-defense, 2) sport (including hunting), and the maintenance of 3) par force (q.v.) against a government turned rogue.


The following factors enter the debate as propositions and even axioms (self-evident truths).  This list is arbitrarily ordered and no doubt incomplete.

1.    Self-defense is not a salutary function of a private citizen.  Maintaining the safety of a citizen in his person is the role of the state through its local constabularies.  (Private individuals defending themselves are “practicing vigilantism” and “taking the law into their own hands”.)
2.    Sporting uses of firearms builds and reinforces the darker aspects of human character, and does not benefit the maintenance of an amiable society.
3.    The sport killing of animals is a barbaric throwback that needs to be eliminated from civilized society.
4.    The Bastiat Triangle of rights is not required to maintain liberal systems of governance.  It is a throwback to an age that no longer exists or informs us.
5.    The Bastiat Triangle is fundamental to any and every constituting formalism that unites a free people in an enduring manner.  Our Founders embedded these rights in our Constitution.
6.    It is the role of the federal government to interpret the Second Amendment and to enforce its uniform interpretation across the land.
7.    All governments not actively kept in check by their governed tend toward autocracy (usually through democratically initiated and subsequently forced redistribution of wealth, dispersing favored entitlements, and debasing the currency).
8.    Powers and collective functions in society should accrue without limit to the highest levels of government because it has the broadest purview of social needs and can assemble the qualified elites to exercise them for the greatest good.
9.    Powers and collective functions in society should accrue within limits to the lowest levels of government because these have the most accurate and immediate purview of local social needs, and can execute them with minimum impact on individual liberties.
10.    The main role of liberal and broad ownership of weapons in a free society is to enable citizens to band together as the check of last resort against a rogue government.  Government should always be at the mercy of its citizens, deporting itself accordingly by enabling its own renewal and, if necessary, replacement through established legal and facile means.  Government’s main role is to maintain the sovereignty of the nation (a nation and its government are not the same).
11.     Government is the final and proper repository of its citizens’ values, mores, and social goals.  Opposition to government, especially one based on its citizens’ use of force, is sedition, and should be dealt with swiftly and severely for the greater good of society.  To maintain the peace, government is justified to use all means necessary (especially as it pertains to gun ownership) to prevent its restraint or its replacement by its citizenry.
12.    For the greatest social good, democracy should be unbridled, practiced nationally, and applied over the broadest bases to let the people decide all levels of public policy and public norms.  The collective always makes the wisest decisions, especially as these affect the permitted individual behaviors in a just society.  The current will of the people should not be inhibited by dated and outmoded maxims.
13.    For the greatest social good, democracy should be bridled, practiced locally (in a distributed manner; see also subsidiarity), and applied in the large through republican mechanisms founded on an established, broadly understood, amendable, and durable basis (e.g. the Constitution) for the nation’s laws.  Collective will is both volatile and unreliable, and therefore should be invoked judiciously and exercised prudently in order to sustainably provide for the broadest liberties of a free people.

So now we have an orchestrated public policy circus going on in Washington through a panel headed arguably by the administration’s chief political clown.  And after the charade of meeting with parties “expressing all viewpoints”, the panel will rush out its politically polished recommendations that will have no bearing on preventing the kind of events that gave rise to this latest rush to judgment.  However, it will provide a framework for gun ban acolytes nationwide to ratchet down another notch or two the people’s right to own and bear arms.

The lamestream will play its compliant role and trumpet the imagined ‘benefits’ of the new provisions while lamenting that more was not done to roll back the nation’s ‘gun culture’.  It will do this by sticking a mike in the faces of the bereaved loved ones and our progressive pundits whose intellectual peaks will again be revealed by arguments such as – ‘But what if it were your child who got shot; wouldn’t you do everything possible to prevent that from happening again?’  Their elicited correct answer is one that appeals to simple minds who have little ability to see that their concern is not even being addressed, and in the larger sense that their wellbeing is jeopardized by a growing Leviathan.

A saner society would make its decisions based on realities and facts relating aggregate probabilities and likelihoods, not on emotional pyrotechnics based on low probability anecdotal happenings.  But this is not to be, for in the final argument the socialist sees no utility in the widespread ownership of weapons.  In fact, to them that ownership is only a liability that obstructs all intents and means to achieve a centrally managed society that can ultimately be populated by enlightened and correctly behaving altruists whom Marx labeled “the communist man”.  And this part of the debate, dear reader, is something that will scarcely see the light of day in this ‘land of the free and home of the brave’.  The focus will remain fixed on the proper needs of deer and duck hunting.

[13jan13 update]  In my sixty years of observing our country’s Presidents, never have I seen the likes of Barak Hussein Obama.  If America survives, I believe history will remember him as the nation’s greatest divider.   We now have Americans starting to build redoubt communities where the like-minded will gather to practice their life styles and be in a place to defend their way of life if/when the time of troubles comes to this land.  The latter looks more and more likely as Obama enlarges his imperial presidency.

The Citadel is the name of one (the first?) of these redoubt communities that is now taking applications for residents of a fortress like city to be built in western Idaho.  More here.

Also heard on the grapevine – Obama’s hard left is beginning to have second thoughts about his promoting a big ratchet on the road to an international gun ban.  The response to the emotional nonsense coming out of Washington after Newtown is without precedence.  Tens of millions of guns and accessories (e.g. large cap magazines) have been sold, ammunition is gone from gun shop shelves, and waiting lists are long for the AR type long guns.  Prices have gone through the roof.

This coming Saturday 19 January 2013 there will be nationwide demonstrations in support of the Second Amendment at local gun stores and shooting ranges.  As a lifelong NRA member, shooting enthusiast, and promoter of an armed citizenry, I intend to throw in my ‘stubborn ounces’ in opposition to the latest managed hysteria to disarm America.

You say the little efforts that I make
will do no good; they never will prevail
to tip the hovering scale
where justice hangs in balance.

I don’t think I ever thought they would.
But I am prejudiced beyond debate
in favor of my right to choose which side
shall feel the stubborn ounces of my weight.
(Bonaro Overstreet)

Posted in , , , ,

214 responses to “Gun Control 2013 (updated 13jan13)”

  1. George Rebane Avatar

    In further defining the lines that separate us, I note that my 932pm was too hot to handle re the difference between FAF and our backing of foreign governments perceived to be in our national self-interest.
    On these pages we have not explicitly covered the how to structure the utility of a foreign policy, let alone how to implement one – we’ll do that soon. Our backing international actors of dubious character goes back to the 19th century (e.g. America backed France’s Napoleon). I’m not exactly sure what gives rise to the steady drumbeat that everything bad today was Bush2’s fault (e.g. BenE’s 839am); perhaps a limited reading of history that has been revised since Great Society days.

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  2. Jesus Betterman Avatar

    My reading of BenE8:39 put far more blame on Reagan than Bush2, but the notion that libs blame Bush2 for everything, ties in perfectly as projection of the stance that Obama is to blame for everything, a view so near and dear to the overarmed and no targets to shoot at right. The right falls just short of an outright call for assassination, and their lesser endowed members will no doubt miss the distinction, and consider any such attempt to be patriotic, just as Iran Contra has been portrayed here.

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  3. Russ Steele Avatar

    Ben@08:39AM
    According to ABC News: In actuality, the Fast and Furious program was started in October 2009, nine months into the Obama presidency.

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  4. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Jesus and all others,
    Here is the deal, I don’t think Ronald Reagan was a bad person, as I don’t think Barack Obama is a bad person either but they are faces of a much bigger machine that is disguised as a representative government. Representation of who is the question? This is what I oppose not conservative/ libertarian vs. liberal/ progressive. Our government doesn’t represent either of these ideologies because it mirrors the leadership of both the corrupt Democratic and Republican parties. Both party leaderships represent the interest of a few thousand people who invest in their parties and the policies they push. The Democrats were the party of labor and the poor for 40 years and it was during this time when we saw real progress in the ideals that were laid out in the Declaration of Independence. The cold war was Pandora box that enriched the wrong type of people who would be considered sociopaths and those sociopaths do not believe in self-governance but rather a pseudo aristocracy through corporate personhood and accumulated wealth. There is a parallel line between human rights for corporations and the absolute corruption of our federal and state governments. As we move further and further into the hostage situation of large transnational corporations threatening to destroy the economy if they don’t get their way we experience less and less representation in our capitals, which has created a corporatist or fascist state.
    I do believe the Bush/ Cheney families fit into the sociopath category.

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  5. George Rebane Avatar

    JesusB 942am – Jesus, you’re back as promised; Lord be praised.
    Actually, and this may really be hard for progressives to digest, everyone on the Right firmly believes that the only thing worse than Obama serving out his term, is if he were assassinated or harmed in any way (save politically) in the process.
    [expanded] Assassination has never been nor should it be beneficial in our Republic. The last time a young, good-looking, albeit naive President was assassinated, we got Lyndon Baines Johnson, the Vietnam War, and the Great Society from which we may never recover. Today Joe Biden?!!

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  6. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    George: re; worthless comment — satire seems to pass you by at times. My point was that there always seems to be some “enemy” foreign or domestic that we must arm ourselves against. A good sales strategy for the arms industry but not necessarily a healthy one for society. The “Obama is going to take our guns” sales strategy is another example of careless marketing that incites those borderline intellects.
    The real question is who is buying all the guns? What is their level of education? What are their occupations? Where do they live? Are the buyers just red-neck militia types whose lack of intelligence make them vulnerable to emotional sales pitches? Are these the same people who buy salad shooters quick weight-loss devices? Most of the people that I know who own non-hunting guns don’t possess the acumen to use them and are ultimately a danger to themselves, their families, and neighbors. Many have suggested that the gun buying binge during the last few years has been a racist reaction to a black President. How many Tim McVeigh’s is the gun lobby creating with all this anyway?

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  7. Walt Avatar

    How the tune changes.. What was I hearing before the re election? ” NNaaaaa,,, “O” IS NOT going to try and take your guns away”…. ” Come on. “O” has actually relaxed gun laws.” and other LIB lemming comments of the like.
    Did you hear the demands from California Libs in D.C.? Calling for a law that will allow the government to confiscate assault weapons? And within the walls of the capital no less. So much for protecting the Constitution they swore to uphold.
    Now “O” is claiming he can play the executive order game when it comes to banning guns.
    Yup, even the few gun loving LIBS here took the bait, and believed the lies.
    How does that old saying go?? Oh,, ya… ” I told you so.”
    I’m glad I got my AR10 when I did. ( 4 in. targets @ 300 yards all day long.)

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  8. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Russ,
    Technically you might be correct in the program name Fast & Furious (F & F) but the policy was started 2006. It was the regulated gun dealers that tipped off the federal government of the suspicious purchases, something it seems many on the right don’t want to happen. I know we can twist that last comment into it was the regulations that caused the F & F program but I would argue the so called “war” on drugs is what is fueling all of this bullsh!t.
    Instead of denying those purchases the ATF put it on steroids. So my natural instinct is to ask the question who profits most of such a horrible policy? Weapon and Private Prison industries who have massive lobbying power in DC, that’s who. The other question would be if it wasn’t people of color killing themselves would have the Project Gunrunner program been amplified into the disgusting and should be illegal F & F program?
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57461204-10391695/a-primer-on-the-fast-and-furious-scandal/
    What is “gunwalking”?
    “Gunwalking” is law enforcement vernacular for the concept of allowing criminal suspects to “walk” off with guns, without police interdicting or tracking them. It’s widely considered taboo, since “walked” guns may be used in violent crimes, including murders.
    What is “Project Gunrunner”?
    “Project Gunrunner” is a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) national initiative under the Justice Department started in 2006 aimed at reducing US-Mexico cross-border drug and gun trafficking and violence.
    What is “Fast and Furious”?
    “Fast and Furious” is the name ATF assigned to a group of Phoenix, Arizona-area gun trafficking cases under Project Gunrunner that began in fall of 2009. It’s the largest of several known operations in which ATF employed gunwalking, involving more than 2,000 weapons, including hundreds of AK-47 type semi-automatic rifles and .50 caliber rifles. According to sources who worked directly on the case, the vast majority of guns were not tracked and Mexico’s government was not fully informed of the case. The ATF Special Agent in Charge of the operation was Bill Newell.
    What is “Wide Receiver”?
    “Wide Receiver” is the name ATF assigned to a group of gun trafficking cases investigated out of the Tucson, Arizona office beginning in 2006. Like Fast and Furious, it was supervised by ATF Special Agent in Charge Bill Newell. Sources indicate it involved about 275 “walked” guns. According to sources who worked directly on the case, the vast majority of guns were not tracked and Mexico’s government was not fully informed of the case. Apparently worried that the gunwalking tactics could be viewed as inappropriate, federal prosecutors in Arizona abandoned the case. Then, in fall of 2009, Justice Department officials decided to go ahead and prosecute the case.
    How did Fast and Furious start?
    A number of Federal Firearms Licensed (FFL) gun dealers in the Phoenix area routinely contacted ATF when they noticed suspicious customers attempting purchases; for example, someone ordering large numbers of AK-47 variant rifles and other so-called “weapons of choice” used by the Mexican drug cartels, and paying with large sums of cash brought in a paper bag. But starting in fall 2009, instead of stopping the transactions or questioning the customers, ATF often encouraged select gun dealers to go ahead and complete suspicious sales. ATF further asked the gun dealers to continue to cooperate by selling to the suspicious customers repeatedly, and providing ATF with names and weapons’ serial numbers. Several gun dealers expressed concerns to ATF: they worried if they cooperated in selling guns to suspected criminals, they would later be unfairly blamed or even prosecuted, and that some of the weapons might be used one day to murder federal agents.

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  9. Gregory Avatar

    Life intruded and my son is home only for a short time. So many targets, so little time.
    Keach 1:33PM
    “Greg’s ignorance of anthro, and cultural differences, is astonishing. There is nothing about the geographic boundaries of the respective states that causes lower homicide rates, nor do the laws on the books of the respective states.”
    Hint, Keach, I didn’t make any such claim, especially regarding to geography; this is just more of your wild habit of listening to the voices in your head rather than reading my words. I did ask why the laws in low violence states should be superceded by new Federal mandates (in essence, imposing Illinois law on them) given they’re already as safe as one could hope.
    One might ask the follow on questions as to how much of the violence in the District of Columbia, NYC, Illinois, California and on down is due to the unintended side effects of criminalizing the possession of inanimate objects that many (including now the SCOTUS) think the people have a right to own and carry.
    “Hint, it has to do with the ethos of the folks who live there, and, applying the laws from there, to the rest of the USA would not change the behavior of the folks in the rest of the USA one damn bit. GregLogic fails when outside of physics and math.”
    Wow, if applying Utah, New Hampshire, Vermont, Wyoming, Arizona, Alaska etc law “to the rest of the USA would not change the behavior of the folks in the rest of the USA one damn bit”, then it might as well be tried. The bad guys everywhere already have guns, an experiment where more good guys have them and can defend themselves without fear of arrest might be useful.

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  10. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Walt,
    What guns have you had confiscated by the federal government? None, so shut the hell up until your armory has been taken by force. The further we get from the latest shooting the more chance the NRA can buy off enough legislatures that no serious new laws will be put in place but enough to allow the D’s to falsely claim to have done major reform and enough to allow the R’s to feed their followers such as yourself to claim they are taking your guns.

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  11. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 1057am – your advice is again a bit short on wisdom. In America, after our “armory has been taken by force”, we will have no voice whatsoever. And neither will people in Australia, Denmark, Italy, … . As today in countless places like China, Cuba, Vietnam, Iran, Sudan, … , unarmed people saying the wrong things just disappear.
    Better to scream warnings beforehand than afterward to scream in pain.

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  12. Gregory Avatar

    George, 7:00PM
    ” I give Reagan a freer pass because he indeed was (according to my lights) fighting the spread of communism in central America. That to me is more salutary than surreptitiously passing guns to Mexican thugs in the attempt to frame America’s gun shops for supplying weapons to Mexican cartels. I picked my poison, you pick yours.”
    Hoping this will kill a few birds with one stone… I take a slightly different view. Cold War Realpolitik machinations really can’t be fairly dissected in a blog this long after the fact. Remember when Cuba led the Non-Aligned Nations in the UN? What delightful fictions we had.
    No, I didn’t think Iran-Contra was justified, but there was plenty of crap to go around. Taking it out of context and refusing to deal with current crimes unless everyone turns the Wayback Machine to the Reagan era and points fingers in the past first is no way to stop ongoing crimes here and now.
    PaulE, I was giving money to Ron Paul in ’88, even sat in his chair in Leary’s back yard after listening to him speak, and watched a reporter (since figured out to be the Chronicle’s Debra Saunders) interview him in the Leary’s living room. Had more people been listening to Paul then, including you, we’d all be better off now.
    No, if there isn’t any real evidence to point to, I’m not going to join in a fingerpointing game. I don’t do conspiracy theories or snipe hunts. I also didn’t vote for Bush I because I didn’t think it appropriate for a former head spook to head the Executive branch; too Putinesque for my tastes.

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  13. Jesus Betterman Avatar

    Somebody’s not hearing the screams of pain from Sandy Hook.

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  14. Jesus Betterman Avatar

    Walt, at 300 yards, some fellow Right rifleman, looking at you, and seeing you armed, how would he know which side you were on?
    George, there are more than enough death threats out there directed at Obama, from members of the right. Are you blind?

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  15. George Rebane Avatar

    JesusB 1132am – Death threats from the Right? Evidence please, and ‘who else would they be from?’ won’t count.

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  16. Ken Jones Avatar
    Ken Jones

    Walt’s claim that the Obama administration or CA libs will take away guns is no more than a specious argument. Walt, President Obama has not taken any guns and yes he did relax the gun laws. That is a fact. The discussion about guns, mass killings and what we as a nation can do is for now a discussion. There is no way that the + 275 million guns in American hands will be confiscated. But there may be some restrictions and closing of loopholes when buying guns. With that discussion we need to include mental health issues. Also enforcing universal background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows should be discussed. Information and discussion are to be promoted not suppressed.

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  17. Walt Avatar
    Walt

    How soon Dougy forgets. Not many LIBS will have guns ( it’s against their political religion)
    So most of the armed people will be Constitution loving people.
    Don’t fret there Dougy,, I’m sure we will be able to spot just who is who. The funky clothing, and the smell of MJ in the wind would be a dead giveaway.
    BTW,, Better get over to Ebay and get your bid in on that “assault rock” that’s up for sale.
    The last time I checked it was over four grand.
    In the Middle East, these are still in full service.
    One more thing. You might want to see what your dear Sen.Dianne Feinstein has to say on this matter. http://www.SenatorFeinstein.com

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  18. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory 11:28 AM
    Well spoken. Well for sure in this case the spook let the rats out with Presidential pardons (papa Bush). If they would have done a little hard time perhaps Obama would think twice before letting his Justice Department run wild. No deterrent, no problem.
    Also Greg I disagree with your view of the Wayback Machine. Ignoring the crimes of the past gives free reign to crimes in the present and future. Obama can look at Iran Contra as a clear sign that he can do whatever he wants. The formula has been established for how to get away with anything. If Ollie North had done 20 years in the slammer do you think others would follow in his footsteps? Perhaps but with more caution if they knew they wouldn’t be bailed out with a pardon. The President is the chief law enforcement officer in the land. Papa Bush made a joke out of that trust.
    As for Ron Paul yes I wish I would have paid more attention to him. I don’t agree with all of his views but I do agree with most especially when it comes to foreign policy. It’s interesting that the two most outspoken members of the House are leaving, Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich leaving us with Tea Party Parrots and Republicrat loyalists to represent us. Forget Rand Paul. he’s just happy to be there and won’t cause any trouble.

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  19. Walt Avatar

    Obviously the LIBS here HAVE NOT heard the words of the vary people they voted for.
    “Iowa, state Rep. Dan Muhlbauer said governments should start confiscating semi-automatic rifles and other firearms.
    “We should ban those in Iowa,” he said, adding that such a ban should be applied retroactively.
    “We need to get them off the streets — illegally — and even if you have them, I think we need to start taking them,” Muhlbauer told the Daily Times Herald. “We can’t have those out there. Because if they’re out there they’re just going to get circulated around to the wrong people. Those guns should not be in the public’s hands. There are just too many guns.”
    On Thursday, Feinstein will introduced her dream bill to disarm the American people.
    The legislation is open-ended and includes provisions to re-register firearms and submit the fingerprints of law-abiding Americans as if they’re sex offenders.
    Feinstein’s bill will also include a buy-back provision that will allow the government to confiscate all firearms. Both Feinstein and New York governor Andrew Cuomo have said that is their plan.
    NO,,,, There is nothing going on in Gov. to attack the 2ND Amendment. Our guns are safe…. Right???
    Yes, it seems a LIB or two here thinks the time to bitch is AFTER the Gestapo show up at the door. ” No one has taken your guns” LOL Ben,,,
    OK Ben,, check out the “banned guns” list of Ca. There are more banned guns, than “approved” guns. There are MANY makers of the good old 45 model 1911, but vary damned few of those makers are even allowed across the state line. Unless the maker coughs up a huge extortion fee.

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  20. Gregory Avatar

    Paul 12:28
    Paul, thanks for the sentiments but I think you’re reading far too much into the pardons. Many were for folks who had already been tried and sentenced to… probation. As is usual, the crimes tend towards obstruction of justice and perjury, which, in essence, meant Bush partisans were fudging the truth rather than being open to special prosecutors during an election year witch hunt. Caspar, especially, decided falling on his sword was preferable to giving raw meat to the opposition. Not legal, but the probation sentences (not for Caspar) fit the crime and it seems a very Bush thing to do to leave office with the pardons. It’s not like the slate was wiped clean; they remain in the history books in an unflattering light, and they were never going to be serving the hard time you wanted anyway.
    The only thing linking Iran-Contra and Fast & Furious is leftist partisan rhetoric looking for any reason to look the other way NOW. In essence, “Bush got away with it, Obama should get away with it, too.”

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  21. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Walt,
    Your panties are all bunched up in just the mention of reform. Do you believe no reform is necessary?
    I think you are mistaking banned weapons are equivalent to taking weapons. They are to completely different things. Hopefully you don’t think surface to air fire arms should be available to all citizens.
    Chalk another one up to the media and the two major parties for distorting the issue of mass killings into false equivalencies to drive the wall of division a little deeper into the ground and a little higher obstacle to overcome.

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  22. Paul Emery Avatar

    You may perceive the linking as partisan rhetoric but to me Iran Contra was a historic power grab by the Presidency absolving them of the possibility of discovering high crimes and misdemeanors and possible legal actions.
    Gregory, the fact that Iran Contra was whitewashed does set up the precedent and methodology for future abuse which we are witnessing today and will continue to see in the future because we tolerated Iran Contra. The fact that some readers of this blog still believe that nothing wrong was done is a good example.
    In the case of Casper W’s “raw meat” what was being pursued was the truth about who knew what when and the investigators were denied that information due to his convenient absence of memory and evasion of the truth. Should that action be rewarded with a patriotic pat on the back because his intentions were patriotic? Hell no. Bush pardoned Weinberger to save his own ass as you must know.
    This may refresh your memory
    ” Mr. Weinberger was scheduled to stand trial on Jan. 5 on charges that he lied to Congress about his knowledge of the arms sales to Iran and efforts by other countries to help underwrite the Nicaraguan rebels, a case that was expected to focus on Mr. Weinberger’s private notes that contain references to Mr. Bush’s endorsement of the secret shipments to Iran.
    In one remaining facet of the inquiry, the independent prosecutor, Lawrence E. Walsh, plans to review a 1986 campaign diary kept by Mr. Bush. Mr. Walsh has characterized the President’s failure to turn over the diary until now as misconduct.
    Decapitated Walsh Efforts
    But in a single stroke, Mr. Bush swept away one conviction, three guilty pleas and two pending cases, virtually decapitating what was left of Mr. Walsh’s effort, which began in 1986. Mr. Bush’s decision was announced by the White House in a printed statement after the President left for Camp David, where he will spend the Christmas holiday.
    Mr. Walsh bitterly condemned the President’s action, charging that “the Iran-contra cover-up, which has continued for more than six years, has now been completed.”
    Mr. Walsh directed his heaviest fire at Mr. Bush over the pardon of Mr. Weinberger, whose trial would have given the prosecutor a last chance to explore the role in the affair of senior Reagan officials, including Mr. Bush’s actions as Vice President.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/06/29/reviews/iran-pardon.html

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  23. Gregory Avatar

    Paul 1:17PM, Walsh, as it was, violated longstanding policy in his witchhunt, and may well have resulted in Clinton’s first win in a malfeasant October surprise. Here’s the wiki take:
    “On the eve of the 1992 presidential election, on October 30, Mr. Walsh re-indicted Weinberger on one count of “false statements.” The indictment conflicted with longstanding Justice Department policy of not bringing an indictment of a political figure out of a grand jury after August of an election year. Walsh went further, specifically implicating Bush in the scandal, though the accusation was irrelevant to the indictment. Bush had been closing the gap with Bill Clinton when Walsh made the indictment, and many believe Walsh’s action put the final nail in his campaign.[2][3][4] Clinton administration attorney Lanny Davis called the decision to indict a week before the election rather than after the election “bizarre.”[2] Judge Thomas Hogan dismissed the October indictment two months later for being outside the statute of limitations.[4] Weinberger’s subsequent pardon by President George Bush in December 1992 preempted any trial. Walsh steadfastly denied that the investigation was politically motivated, as Bush and others criticized it as “the criminalization of policy differences.”
    It’s been 25 years, and we had 8 years of Clinton and 4 years of Obama justice departments that left it alone in the meantime. Give it a rest, it’s dead and buried by all who could reanimate it.

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  24. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Paul,
    To your unaccountable executive branch and DOJ it really started with the Policy of Containment in the 40’s and 50’s. This is what Eisenhower was so freaked out by and why he tried to warn us about it throughout his administrations with the most known speeches Cross Of Irons (53′) and his farewell speech (61′). LBJ with the Gulf of Tonkin, ignored. Nixon got caught and pardoned of any crimes committed. Reagan Iran/ Contra among many other crimes ignored by HW Bush administration because he was an accomplice. Clinton ignored both Bush and Reagan crimes. W Bush ignored Clinton crimes and now Obama ignores W Bush crimes. This is a perfect example of a machine or institution that is shared by both Democratic and Republican Party leaderships and where the people are no longer represented and can hold accountable those who control our one party government.
    Despite big differences in our domestic ideas I would have voted for Ron Paul if he was on the ballot due to our agreement on the issues/ powers that the Executive Branch holds. I don’t believe he is controlled by the machine, which is why the republican party marginalized him much like Kucinich and the democratic party.
    Cross Of Irons
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04P4zPzspuI
    Farewell Address
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWiIYW_fBfY

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  25. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    Of course Clinton left it alone.
    Clinton, of all people, would have squashed any detailed look at the Drug Cash for Contras investigation especially out of Arkansas under Clinton’s watch. They are all slime as far as I’m concerned.
    THE CRIMES OF MENA
    “Clinton has acknowledged learning officially about Mena only in April 1988, though a state police investigation had been in progress for several years. As the state’s chief executive, Clinton often claimed to be fully abreast of such inquiries. In his one public statement on the matter as governor, in September 1991 he spoke of that investigation finding “linkages to the federal government,” and “all kinds of questions about whether he [Seal] had any links to the C.l.A…. and if that backed into the Iran-Contra deal.”
    But then Clinton did not offer further support for any inquiry, “despite the fact,” as Bill Plante and Michael Singer of CBS News have written, “that a Republican administration was apparently sponsoring a Contra-aid operation in his state and protecting a smuggling ring that flew tons of cocaine through Arkansas.”
    As recently as March 1995, Arkansas state trooper Larry Patterson testified under oath, according to The London Sunday Telegraph, that he and other officers “discussed repeatedly in Clinton’s presence” the “large quantities of drugs being flown into the Mena airport, large quantities of money, large quantities of guns,” indicating that Clinton may have known much more about Seal’s activities than he has admitted.”

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  26. Walt Avatar

    LOL Ben, ” restrictions” you say? You sure were bent out of shape with the “restrictions”
    on pot. From how much someone can grow, and where.Let alone possess. ( but somehow THIS is different.) Only when it’s a “right” ( as some see it) that you feel is being infringed, do you drag out the pitchforks.( or alligator roach clips in this case)
    On that note, show us just where in the Constitution does it say ” The use of MJ shall not be infringed”. I have yet to find the “420TH” anywhere in that document.
    But those four words ( that some LIBS despise) do appear in the 2ND. What part of ” Shall not be infringed” don’t you ( and LIBS in general) don’t comprehend?
    Then we come to another elected LIB comment. ” Military style guns should not be in the public’s hands”. Aside from full automatic, and anything larger than 50 cal ( that would be .51 and up) The “public” have had them. From the revolutionary war on up. The “military”
    rifle was not much more than a civilian rifle.
    Now,, the anti gun gang would like to keep us gun lovers, and honest citizens to go back 100 years in personal protection and remove the modern firearm from our hands. ( nice way to stage a governmental takeover of the disarmed people.)
    It seems our founding Fathers saw Obummer and his followers coming. Hence the 2ND.
    Forget that just before WWII a certain German “president” disarmed the general public too?
    ” You don’t need them. The Government will protect you.” How did that work out for the Jewish citizens of Germany?
    But OF COURCE,,, That couldn’t and wouldn’t happen here…. ( says you)

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  27. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, are you the News Director at VMR, or are you the Olds Director?
    Let’s try this… list all of the past crimes, real or imagined, that you think need to be thoroughly aired before Fast & Furious can be handled. Please be complete, everything, so some bimbo-ish memory eruption won’t derail a chat about ongoing crimes that you seem to be doing your best to ignore.

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  28. Gregory Avatar

    And Paul, a piece of the Walsh puzzle you dropped… his bringing of charges just days before the election that were thrown out because a most basic element, the statute of limitations, had been exceeded. This is either incompetence or malfeasance. I suggest the latter. He improperly used his office to try to throw the election and it may well have been the straw that brought that paragon of civic and private virtue, Clinton, into the oval orifice.
    And, no, I didn’t throw Bush the 1st a sympathy vote the second time around, either.

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  29. Walt Avatar

    More words form Pres. Chavez the second.
    “My understanding is the vice president’s going to provide a range of steps that we can take to reduce gun violence,” said Obama. “Some of them will require legislation, some of them I can accomplish through executive action. And so I will be reviewing those today, and as I said, I will speak in more detail to what we’re going to go ahead and propose later in the week. But I’m confident that there are some steps that we can take that don’t require legislation and that are within my authority as president, and where you get a step that, has the opportunity to reduce the possibility of gun violence, then i want to go ahead and take it.”
    So…. Some how he now has powers that over ride the Constitution, Congress and the 2ND amendment in general. and ALL by executive order.
    It sure reads like ” infringement” to me.
    And who makes seven round capacity magazines? But I guess lawmakers can throw out any number they like. ( yes, some Progressives just passed that state law somewhere.)
    Nice way to drive up the cost. Now they get a taste of Calif. “special” stupidity.( special fuel, cars, trucks, engines, etc.)

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  30. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    I think history helps put things in perspective and Iran Contra was a major moment in defining Presidential power. In my view the impeachable crimes were far greater than Watergate but the Republicrats supported Reagan and allowed the investigation to die an unnatural death because Ronnie was popular to the ruling class and Nixon wasn’t. Bush was the cleanup man as well as project manager and his pardons were predictable and functional. You seem to infer that Clinton had a vested interest in continuing the investigation but for reasons already expressed that seems unlikely. “Read my lips” was Bush’s downfall along with Clintons charisma and campaign skills and, of course, Ross Perot, the biggest reason. The final numbers were National Results: Clinton 43%, Bush 37%, Perot, 19%. I doubt if Iran Contra had much to do with it but, although it’s an interesting theory, but a weak argument.
    Our views of this historic event are not that far apart but I question why you disregard the perspective I offer that Fast and Furious is an extension of Presidential arrogance and power that was so well exercised during Reagan – Bush times.

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  31. Gregory Avatar

    “Somebody’s not hearing the screams of pain from Sandy Hook”
    Channeling dead children? Wasn’t that a John Edwards specialty?

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  32. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, I disregard anything that sounds more like the rationalization by a newsman of their ignoring current crimes. Get over it. This is how Croats and Serbs, and the Irish and Irish, manage to keep fighting over the past.
    There’s NOTHING you or I can do to litigate crimes that might have been committed 25 years ago. I have no interest in digging out the most minute detail that is on the net that may or may not be true and verifiable. It’s purely a distraction. The statutes of limitation that were already past in ’92 are even more past now. Walsh helped get rid of Bush, albeit in a sleazy way. Isn’t that enough for you?
    So, Fast & Furious? Or more, “Look! Haley’s Comet!” equivalents? Your choice.

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  33. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    The shelf life of Fast and Furious will be limited to a few months. Historically it breaks no ground and is entirely consistent with the Imperial Presidency’s we have become accustomed to.

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  34. Walt Avatar

    Dr. R… Since muzzle loaders are within our ownership laws, does a mortar tube
    fall within that “rule”? It IS a muzzle loader by definition.
    Since every gun right is boiled down to a Progressive’s perspective, and the written word
    is open to suggestion ( Yes,,Never mind the clear wording, but this is what they “really” meant to say.”)
    The LIB talking points lately have been along the line of ,, ” The founding Fathers never envisioned guns that we have today”. I’m sure all of us have heard that line of BS.
    The same can be said for “right of a free press” Think they envisioned the “press” being a mouthpiece for an ever increasing tyrannical government? The Hollywood Left have their own rights as well, all under the umbrella of ” art”.
    Never mind the mass killings they portray as “art”.. You have seen those shows,,, ” Criminal minds”, “CSI” etc. But no mad call to stop that kind of programing. And you think these programs don’t give lunatics ideas? ” HAY,,! I can do better than that, I can be smarter and get away with it.”
    Now we see those vary same people who have made their millions off violence on TV and the silver screen reading another script, this time advocating the LIB anti gun mantra.
    Let’s put limits on them first. These nut jobs are only copying what they saw on a show somewhere. The Hollywood types could have put the idea in their heads in the first place.
    Watch how fast they would claim THEIR rights as “artists” would be infringed if we did.

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  35. George Rebane Avatar

    Walt 419pm – Interesting question. Indirect fire weapons are designated as guns, howitzers, and mortars by what is called their ‘caliber length’, which is the length of their tubes (barrels) measured in the number of their bore diameters (calibers). Mortars are generally ‘muzzle loaders’ of less than 10 caliber lengths. Guns start with a minimum of about 25 caliber lengths, and everything in between is a howitzer. I’m not sure that our gun laws allow civilians to have indirect fire weapons regardless of their caliber length or type of bore.

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  36. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, got it. You just don’t care about government crimes unless it’s on the watch of guys you really don’t like.

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  37. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Gregory
    I just call it like I see it. Fast and Furious has no legs because it’s pretty routine stuff we’ve come to expect from the Republicrats. It’s a bit bizarre though but pretty routine government collusion with organized crime that’s been going on for upteen years. It used to be supervised by J Edgar Hoover but now the stakes are higher and has it’s own department-the DOJ. Of course the Obama administration did not invent the scheme. Under the pubbers it was called Operation Wide Receiver.
    “The Justice Department released documents Thursday on the Bush-era Wide Receiver gun-walking operation that suggest the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives was aware that guns were likely flowing into Mexico but allowed it to continue in the hopes of penetrating deeply into U.S.-Mexico gun trafficking networks.
    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0112/71127.html#ixzz2I0ugecxx
    These operations are seldom specific to one administration. That was certainly true of Iran Contra which was one reason the investigations failed. Watergate was an exception but was probaly triggered by the FBI’s desire to throw Nixon under the bus.

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  38. Jesus Betterman Avatar

    Walt naively believes that everyone on the right will respect the properties of the others on the right. Not a chance that someone will be paranoid to want to grab everything in sight, because, after all, they and their buddies are more important than your life. You’d better get your militias well organized ahead of time, and be prepared to take orders from the commander in chief, because that’s what it says you have to do. Surely you believe in the Constitution?
    If you are afraid to walk certain public areas in the USA, then they are foreign occupied, for all practical purposes.

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  39. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, freerepublic put it this way, not uniquely:
    “Horowitz mysteriously chose to lump Fast and Furious, as Team Obama does, with a Bush-era program, Wide Receiver. That operation was run out of Tucson between 2006 and 2007, ending before Bush left office and before Fast and Furious began in 2009.
    Both Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious were part of a bigger effort called Project Gunrunner, which began in 2006. Even so, the differences between the two are vast, starting with the fact that Wide Receiver produced no dead bodies. It was run in close cooperation with Mexican authorities, as Fast and Furious wasn’t, and involved gun-tracing and not gun-walking.
    The report was repeatedly invoked by Holder as a reason for withholding answers and documents on Fast and Furious from OGR Chairman Darrell Issa, R-Calif.
    Along with Sen. Charles Grassley, D-Iowa, Issa led the investigation of the operation that saw Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and ICE Agent Jaime Zapata murdered with guns supplied by the program. Holder, held in contempt by the House, still isn’t very forthcoming”
    It’s easy, just think “Holder lied. People died.”

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  40. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Can anyone name a federal Attorney General office that didn’t lie to the people in our lifetimes? Once again I will point out my broken record message.
    Both major parties are bought and sold by big business and the interests of ordinary people don’t mean a thing. The two parties work together for the interests of the same people by the ancient strategy of divide et impera, divide and rule. Our government has been usurped by big business through the dependence of easy money to fund the two largest institutions in the US and perhaps the world, the Democratic and Republican Parties. Until we rid ourselves of this enemy of democratic government and start electing representatives that pledge to fight against this corruption we will continue to argue obsolete issues on the basis that they are the major problems facing us today. That is how the powers that be divide and rule. Look at my left hand that is showing emotional/ distracting issues while my right hand corrupts and plunders our nations wealth.
    Gunrunner and Wide Receiver were both build ups that allowed the Fast & Furious to be implemented. Gradualism is the best way to create huge changes without massive opposition. Both parties do it and I don’t think the voters in either camp would approve of it on its face but when partisanship comes into play voters tend to ignore their teams “noble lies” to further the greater good of a particular ideology.

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  41. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Russ Steele | 12 January 2013 at 11:11 AM
    It is based off a very well researched book about inequality called “The Spirit Level”. Here is a review from Time World addition. I would argue anti-depressants play a large role in this issue as well but unfortunately we are a few years away from a comprehensive study of the idea and almost for sure more people will needlessly die as the consequence.
    The Importance of Economic Equality
    Spirit Level by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett
    “What if there was a way to raise a population’s life expectancy and reduce its rates of crime, suicide, teenage pregnancy and mental illness, among other social problems? British epidemiologists Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett believe they have found one. In The Spirit Level: Why Greater Equality Makes Societies Stronger, published in the U.S. on Dec. 22, they present data suggesting that almost every indicator of social health in wealthy societies is related to its level of economic equality. (See the data here). Comparing statistics between developed economies and within the U.S., Wilkinson and Pickett argue GDP and overall wealth matter little to wealthy societies. Rather, it is the gap between the rich and poor that is telling. They spoke to TIME about what they believe are revolutionary findings.”
    Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1948806,00.html#ixzz2I1L5PAGc

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  42. George Rebane Avatar

    Getting back to gun control and protecting our school kids from shooters, I invite you to read the 14jan13 update to ‘How to Protect School Children in Schools’.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/12/how-to-protect-school-children-in-schools.html

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  43. Jesus Betterman Avatar

    George, both of these threads are already too long, it would have been better to start a fresh one.
    I see that you have identified the problem as one of reducing the number of dead bodies, while totally ignoring the look in the eyes of the girl as she swung her IPad around to show me what her mom had just called about in a total panic, on that day, as I was a guest teacher (their choice of words, Greg) at a local middle school.
    What you have to be much more concerned about is the sense of terror that namby pambying about the issue is only increasing, among an entire generation of children.
    Let’s review the document, and this time pay attention to all of the words, therein:
    “There are several versions of the text of the Second Amendment, each with slight capitalization and punctuation differences, found in the official documents surrounding the adoption of the Bill of Rights.[5] One version was passed by the Congress,[6] while another is found in the copies distributed to the States[7] and then ratified by them.
    As passed by the Congress:
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State:
    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.[8]
    The original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights, approved by the House and Senate, was prepared by scribe William Lambert and resides in the National Archives.
    Which word comes first, “KEEP” or “BEAR?”
    “Keep” comes first, and Americans have failed miserably at this.
    There need to be laws on the books that put financial teeth into the “keeping” side of things. I have outlined such laws, and called attention to such potential laws, several times here, yet I see no reference in your list on the school gun control side of these writings here.
    I do not call for banning any guns or ammo. I call for those who buy them to have to “keep” them, or face significant financial penalties, during the first five years of ownership, unless they legitimately transfer ownership. It could even be on a progressive scale, based on a person’s income taxes or net worth (the latter is a big no-no, the elephant in the room, unwritten rules against even bringing it up, for taxes or anything, protected informally even more so than the 2nd amendment, haha, I see you)
    In short, you buy a bond at the same time you by the weapon, and once each year you show the weapon to the local sheriff, or you forfeit the bond. Each year that goes by, the bond requirement decreases 20%. This applies only to new gun purchases. For more details, see:
    http://farstars.blogspot.com/2012/12/refined-version-keeping-guns-away-from.html
    I would love, of course, for it to apply to all guns, but that would be probably viewed as ex post facto taxation. Obviously responsible collectors would have reduced rates, but could be held accountable, by forfeiting whatever is left of their collection, after it is stolen or misused, because of undo ease of access. Concrete walls, floors, and ceilings would be advised for adequate protection of large collections. Otherwise, a safe that requires three people to move, alarmed as well, of course. After all, it’s right there in the amendment, “KEEP!”
    I’ve had my say, and I have not BANNED one damn thing. But I have stopped a great deal of illegal transfers and misuses, which we so desperately need.

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  44. Jesus Betterman Avatar

    Is there anyone on these threads that is a Sandy Hook Truthier? And George doesn’t think that there are those out there crazy enough to think an assassination attempt would be patriotic? George has no idea of the number of nut cases running around this country.
    Try these nut cases on for size, and “professor” James Trask at Florida Atlantic University, while you are at it:
    http://www.salon.com/2013/01/15/this_man_helped_save_six_children_is_now_getting_harassed_for_it/

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  45. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Although the “truther” thing is a bit of a tempest in a crackpot tea pot, as Forrest Gump reminds us “stupid is, as stupid does.”
    America is indeed collapsing under the weight of its own stupidity, like a rotten-out deck holding up a bunch of drunken teenagers.
    “Dude, did you hear that? That creaking noise?”
    “Whatever man, just tap the new keg. Do you have any dope?”

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  46. George Rebane Avatar

    re JesusB’s various – Yes,minimizing the number of dead bodies that we can all count is what I propose as a working utility function for making gun control policy. Basing policy on the horrified looks in the eyes of survivors, it the typical pandering polemics used by either the ignorant and/or those with a more sinister agenda.
    Interpreting the 2nd Amendment’s 18th century “keep” wording to include the bonding of legal gun owners is a leap beyond logic and practicality (as I have argued before). Arguing that it is not an effective ‘taking’ of guns from citizens is akin to arguing that the South’s unaffordable poll taxes did not deny the vote to the blacks. Nevertheless, Jesus’ (DougK’s) recommendation is a serious one that in such discussions as this be put on the table with all the others.
    And equating NRA’s target practice interactive app with the blood and disembowelment video games is only another incomprehensible illustration of the liberal mind that widens the chasm between us.

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  47. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    I haven’t had a chance to read the book but my friend sent me a link to the story.
    The Hidden History of the Second Amendment
    By Professor Carl T. Bogus
    Roger Williams University School of Law
    as published in the U.C. Davis Law Review
    Synopsis
    In his recent U.C. Davis Law Review article “The Hidden History of the Second Amendment,” Roger Williams University School of Law Professor Carl T. Bogus offers a thesis that could forever change the way Americans view the Second Amendment: James Madison wrote the Second Amendment to assure the southern states that Congress would not undermine the slave system by disarming the militia, which were then the principal instruments of slave control throughout the South.
    Full synopsis here:
    http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/hidhist.htm

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