Rebane's Ruminations
January 2013
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George Rebane

The 14dec12 Newtown massacre has been blown into a celebrated “crisis” for the nation’s gun ban contingent.  And President Obama has made certain that this crisis will also not go to waste in his overarching program that is fundamentally transforming America.  He gave VP Joe Biden the job of fashioning the next set of regulations that will further criminalize law abiding citizens who own and bear guns.  Remarkably (or not), Biden will present his panel’s rapidly reached conclusions and resulting recommendations within the next few days.

MinutemenThe Second Amendment is one of the two or three major dividers in our ideologically polarized country.  And its public debate (mirrored in these pages) shines a bright light on the enormous differences that separate our self-declared progressives from those who consider themselves to be classic liberals and libertarians – more compactly labeled our Left and Right.

The major element of debate about the extent of public ownership of guns is their beneficial functions, if any, in a free, open, and liberal society that intends to remain so.  These functions are summarized in gun uses for 1) self-defense, 2) sport (including hunting), and the maintenance of 3) par force (q.v.) against a government turned rogue.


The following factors enter the debate as propositions and even axioms (self-evident truths).  This list is arbitrarily ordered and no doubt incomplete.

1.    Self-defense is not a salutary function of a private citizen.  Maintaining the safety of a citizen in his person is the role of the state through its local constabularies.  (Private individuals defending themselves are “practicing vigilantism” and “taking the law into their own hands”.)
2.    Sporting uses of firearms builds and reinforces the darker aspects of human character, and does not benefit the maintenance of an amiable society.
3.    The sport killing of animals is a barbaric throwback that needs to be eliminated from civilized society.
4.    The Bastiat Triangle of rights is not required to maintain liberal systems of governance.  It is a throwback to an age that no longer exists or informs us.
5.    The Bastiat Triangle is fundamental to any and every constituting formalism that unites a free people in an enduring manner.  Our Founders embedded these rights in our Constitution.
6.    It is the role of the federal government to interpret the Second Amendment and to enforce its uniform interpretation across the land.
7.    All governments not actively kept in check by their governed tend toward autocracy (usually through democratically initiated and subsequently forced redistribution of wealth, dispersing favored entitlements, and debasing the currency).
8.    Powers and collective functions in society should accrue without limit to the highest levels of government because it has the broadest purview of social needs and can assemble the qualified elites to exercise them for the greatest good.
9.    Powers and collective functions in society should accrue within limits to the lowest levels of government because these have the most accurate and immediate purview of local social needs, and can execute them with minimum impact on individual liberties.
10.    The main role of liberal and broad ownership of weapons in a free society is to enable citizens to band together as the check of last resort against a rogue government.  Government should always be at the mercy of its citizens, deporting itself accordingly by enabling its own renewal and, if necessary, replacement through established legal and facile means.  Government’s main role is to maintain the sovereignty of the nation (a nation and its government are not the same).
11.     Government is the final and proper repository of its citizens’ values, mores, and social goals.  Opposition to government, especially one based on its citizens’ use of force, is sedition, and should be dealt with swiftly and severely for the greater good of society.  To maintain the peace, government is justified to use all means necessary (especially as it pertains to gun ownership) to prevent its restraint or its replacement by its citizenry.
12.    For the greatest social good, democracy should be unbridled, practiced nationally, and applied over the broadest bases to let the people decide all levels of public policy and public norms.  The collective always makes the wisest decisions, especially as these affect the permitted individual behaviors in a just society.  The current will of the people should not be inhibited by dated and outmoded maxims.
13.    For the greatest social good, democracy should be bridled, practiced locally (in a distributed manner; see also subsidiarity), and applied in the large through republican mechanisms founded on an established, broadly understood, amendable, and durable basis (e.g. the Constitution) for the nation’s laws.  Collective will is both volatile and unreliable, and therefore should be invoked judiciously and exercised prudently in order to sustainably provide for the broadest liberties of a free people.

So now we have an orchestrated public policy circus going on in Washington through a panel headed arguably by the administration’s chief political clown.  And after the charade of meeting with parties “expressing all viewpoints”, the panel will rush out its politically polished recommendations that will have no bearing on preventing the kind of events that gave rise to this latest rush to judgment.  However, it will provide a framework for gun ban acolytes nationwide to ratchet down another notch or two the people’s right to own and bear arms.

The lamestream will play its compliant role and trumpet the imagined ‘benefits’ of the new provisions while lamenting that more was not done to roll back the nation’s ‘gun culture’.  It will do this by sticking a mike in the faces of the bereaved loved ones and our progressive pundits whose intellectual peaks will again be revealed by arguments such as – ‘But what if it were your child who got shot; wouldn’t you do everything possible to prevent that from happening again?’  Their elicited correct answer is one that appeals to simple minds who have little ability to see that their concern is not even being addressed, and in the larger sense that their wellbeing is jeopardized by a growing Leviathan.

A saner society would make its decisions based on realities and facts relating aggregate probabilities and likelihoods, not on emotional pyrotechnics based on low probability anecdotal happenings.  But this is not to be, for in the final argument the socialist sees no utility in the widespread ownership of weapons.  In fact, to them that ownership is only a liability that obstructs all intents and means to achieve a centrally managed society that can ultimately be populated by enlightened and correctly behaving altruists whom Marx labeled “the communist man”.  And this part of the debate, dear reader, is something that will scarcely see the light of day in this ‘land of the free and home of the brave’.  The focus will remain fixed on the proper needs of deer and duck hunting.

[13jan13 update]  In my sixty years of observing our country’s Presidents, never have I seen the likes of Barak Hussein Obama.  If America survives, I believe history will remember him as the nation’s greatest divider.   We now have Americans starting to build redoubt communities where the like-minded will gather to practice their life styles and be in a place to defend their way of life if/when the time of troubles comes to this land.  The latter looks more and more likely as Obama enlarges his imperial presidency.

The Citadel is the name of one (the first?) of these redoubt communities that is now taking applications for residents of a fortress like city to be built in western Idaho.  More here.

Also heard on the grapevine – Obama’s hard left is beginning to have second thoughts about his promoting a big ratchet on the road to an international gun ban.  The response to the emotional nonsense coming out of Washington after Newtown is without precedence.  Tens of millions of guns and accessories (e.g. large cap magazines) have been sold, ammunition is gone from gun shop shelves, and waiting lists are long for the AR type long guns.  Prices have gone through the roof.

This coming Saturday 19 January 2013 there will be nationwide demonstrations in support of the Second Amendment at local gun stores and shooting ranges.  As a lifelong NRA member, shooting enthusiast, and promoter of an armed citizenry, I intend to throw in my ‘stubborn ounces’ in opposition to the latest managed hysteria to disarm America.

You say the little efforts that I make
will do no good; they never will prevail
to tip the hovering scale
where justice hangs in balance.

I don’t think I ever thought they would.
But I am prejudiced beyond debate
in favor of my right to choose which side
shall feel the stubborn ounces of my weight.
(Bonaro Overstreet)

Posted in , , , ,

214 responses to “Gun Control 2013 (updated 13jan13)”

  1. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, Iran/Contra wasn’t pushed by Reagan or his top staff and by all accounts, he blanched when he heard about it. There’s no evidence RR knew about it or orchestrated a coverup; Reagan had a loose management style that gave his people plenty of leeway. That’s not always a good thing.
    Fast and Furious was known at the top levels, was arguably instituted by the top levels, and was allowed to continue by the top levels who did keep it quiet.
    Shame on you for inferring a moral equivalence between the two, especially since the Fast and Furious actually provided arms to bloodthirsty drug lords across our border with at least one US Border Control agent murdered with one of them.

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  2. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    Moral equivalence? You bet and then some.
    Why didn’t Reagan know about it? Are you saying that Senior Bush as VP also didn’t know? Was it a secret effort operating within the protection of the US Government? What was the role of the CIA in the affair? Isn’t the President responsible for the actions of the CIA? Are you denying that guns for drugs during Iran Contra ever existed. By the way, I don’t deny Slick Willy’s part in this sordid affair.
    Here’s Ron Paul’s take
    “Drug trafficking is “a gold mine for people who want to raise money in the underground government in order to finance projects that they can’t get legitimately. It is very clear that the CIA has been very much involved with drug dealings,” Paul said. “The CIA was very much involved in the Iran-Contra scandals. I’m not making up the stories; we saw it on television. They were hauling down weapons and drugs back. And the CIA and government officials were closing their eyes, fighting a war that was technically illegal.”
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/30/ron-paul-conspiracy-theory-cia-drug-traffickers_n_1176103.html
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/archive/gunsdrugscia.html

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  3. George Rebane Avatar

    Administrivia – I just purged a bunch of recent ad hominem mudballs from this comment stream. No doubt there are some left. I’ll try something different next. You guys are a lot of fun.

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  4. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, I can imagine many knowing about Iran Contra, but no evidence was ever developed, and that’s quite a bit different than US Federal gun laws known to be circumvented to insure illegal gun transactions being allowed. Even gun stores were questioning the approvals they were getting.
    Then there’s the continuing coverup… what did Holder know, and when did he stop knowing it? The evidence so far is 1) quite a lot. From the wiki,
    “On Thursday, June 28, 2012, Holder became the first sitting member of the Cabinet of the United States to be held in criminal contempt of Congress by the House of Representatives for refusing to disclose internal Justice Department documents in response to a subpoena. The vote was 255-67 in favor, with 17 Democrats voting yes and a large number of Democrats walking off the floor in protest and refusing to vote. A civil contempt measure was also voted on and passed, 258-95”
    Re the mudballs, thanks, George.

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  5. Russ Steele Avatar

    Gregory.
    I only sent a letter to my Congressman. Since you did not use the process, you missed entering a zip code to bring up the appropriate congressional address. Follow the steps and you shall succeed.

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  6. Gregory Avatar

    Russ, I have no need to use Ruger for that particular service, and have not bothered. Letting other people, or companies, write my notes to elected representatives is not my style. If you want to write your congresscritter, write them.
    Feel free to crib from the Ruger letter if you like it.

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  7. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Greg’s ignorance of anthro, and cultural differences, is astonishing. There is nothing about the geographic boundaries of the respective states that causes lower homicide rates, nor do the laws on the books of the respective states. Hint, it has to do with the ethos of the folks who live there, and, applying the laws from there, to the rest of the USA would not change the behavior of the folks in the rest of the USA one damn bit. GregLogic fails when outside of physics and math.

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  8. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    The temps in Utah are not conducive to sticking around for the winters, and a culture that encourages having six month stockpiles of food is rather different than the rest of the USA.

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  9. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    ~ bill tozer | 13 January 2013 at 07:37 AM~
    There is something left of the entry?

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  10. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    RE: Reagan and Iran/Contra
    When I was in graduate school I did a large (75 page) research paper on the subject of what did Reagan know and how did that effect press releases and media coverage from a public relations standpoint. In summary, he knew about it from day one or he had Alzheimers and didn’t remember. As journalists (something that no longer exists) began to unravel the story and disclosures from the hearings became public information, Reagan tweeked his story in damage control efforts. The story kept changing to address the current threat. Ollie North and others took the hit to protect Reagan. The End

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  11. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    Specifically , are you telling me that in your view Reagan and Bush did not know about the Iran Contra affair?
    And what about the Bowlen Amendment?

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  12. bill tozer Avatar
    bill tozer

    Douglas Keachie, 1:40pm. You are quite astute this fine day. Indeed I would have been better served in communication if I had changed the word “in” to “of”. Makes a rather nasty mess of the entry. Excellent point.

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  13. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Paul,
    Don’t expect republican apologists to use rational thought when it comes to their war criminal hero Ronald Reagan and his entire administrations. Don’t get me wrong I think the Clinton, Bush, and now the Obama administrations have all broken international war and humanitarian laws. Every administration since Truman with the exception of the Carter administration has broken used the US military illegally according to our own Constitution and much of the international laws.
    The Boland amendment first passage was in 1982, which barred the use of funds from the federal government for overthrowing the government of Nicaragua or instigating conflicts between Nicaragua and Honduras. Reagan sold arms to our sworn enemy (Iran) while supplying arms and intelligence to Saddam Hussein, made deals with terrorists, laundered money through drug lords, and then violated the US Constitution and the Boland amendment by covertly funding a brutal mercenary that represented everything the US was supposed to stand for.
    My mom was an adult ESL teacher at the time and she had a huge influx of students from those two nations telling the stories of missing persons, CIA death squads, and much much more.

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  14. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK 133pm – Am not sure anyone (especially Greg) has argued that state boundaries are causal of anything. But such boundaries do delimit where people holding certain systems of belief congregate, make their laws, and live according to those laws and beliefs. Their aggregate behavior reflects that, and is then the causal influence on the resulting statistics.
    And regarding the limits of logic(s) derived from physics and math – there are none. To the extent that any field in the last fifty years has sought to extend the domain of human knowledge, they have all had to integrate and borrow from the toolsets of physics and math (aka the systems sciences). This has been pretty much a one-way road that has now turned into a broad and very busy one-way multi-lane super highway. Algorizing EVERYTHING in order to make it computable has become de rigueur.

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  15. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Hey Michael Anderson, you know the other thing I think is hilarious? While our local ‘preppers’ (including apparently some here) are preparing for the end of the [neighborhood][city][county][state][nation][civilization][world][solar system][galaxy][universe], including: earthquake, flood, comet, asteroid, Russian paratroopers, ‘nucular’ accident, flood, famine, wildfire, electromagnetic pulse, sun spots, ZOG, sharia law, terrorist attack, economic collapse, societal collapse, pandemics, the zombie apocalypse, geomagnetic reversal, the end of global fertility due to gay marriage, peak oil, and the return of the Messiah, they are going to have to store a lot of stuff. (“You said flood twice” “I like flood”). That means we will be prepared for climate change; the only doomsday scenario they insist is impossible!

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  16. Paul Emery Avatar

    Ben Emery | 13 January 2013 at 02:20 PM
    Yeah, that’s pretty disappointing Ben that we can’t get a good conversation going about the abuse of Presidential power since any Pubber President seems to get a free pass from most of this crowd. What’s ironic is that most subscribers here, with the exception of the Toddster do not claim to be Repub diehards.
    By the way I’ll respond for George on the abuse of power in Iran Contra, correct me if necessary George, but it was all OK because we we were fighting the Commies, ditto for Iran 1953, Chile, Grenada,,, or Islamic Terrorists-Afganistan, Iraq….
    I’m the first to admit I have Dem stains on my record but I’m trying to be free of institutional addiction and I appreciate opinions from others that strive to attain independence of partisan thought.

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  17. George Rebane Avatar

    For the record – I have spoken to Republican groups (and Republican politicians) numerous times. None of what I have had to say has made them feel better about the GOP. The pages of RR are a testament to this.
    Both (all) political parties are political first, last, and always. Their common denominator above all is to perpetuate their power; everything else, as we have seen, is negotiable. While I’m still enough of an idealist to say, ‘My country, right or wrong,…’, I have never been able to unequivocally say ‘My party, right or wrong,… .’ I like to think that most RR commenters feel the same way.

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  18. Paul Emery Avatar

    So then George why the free pass to Reagan on Iran Contra and Bush on Iraq and the freak out over ‘fast and furious’ and Benghazi when they come from the same ilk.

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  19. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    To further this conversation about the topic of “gun control”. We are not talking about gun control we are talking about mass shootings and lunatics having access to guns. The left makes the mistake of stopping at the gun itself. Where do they get this idea? The Democratic Party and so called “left” pundits. This allows for the discussion to be about what those who control the levers of power want because it will cause the debate to degrade to a visceral level of two false equivalencies. The right then talks about the government taking guns away from people. Where do they get this idea? The Republican Party and “right” pundits. All of this is to keep the people divided against each other so we don’t unite against those who flushing our nation down the toilet. It has been the same since the beginning of time, divide et impera.
    The mass shootings are happening due to the fear or distrust pumped into society by the media, the policies that promote inequality, lack of affordable access to mental health care, and a deep sense that the duopoly that pretends to be our representatives don’t care about the interests of average Americans.

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  20. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    About my country right or wrong contradicts your statement about your party right or wrong. Our government, which is the representation of our country is controlled by the two largest institutions in the nation called the Republican Party and Democratic Party. These two parties are in turn are controlled by big business which has no loyalty to our country or the interests of its people. The exodus of big business since the Free Trade era began is proof of this lack of loyalty. I love our country for so many reasons but have just as many reasons to be embarrassed and ashamed.

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  21. Russ Steele Avatar

    Steven@03:00PM
    You wrote: “That means we will be prepared for climate change; the only doomsday scenario they insist is impossible!”
    Climate change has two sides, one positive (warm) and one negative (cold). Since there has been no global warming for the past 17 years ( http://www.c3headlines.com/2013/01/satellites-confirm-atmospheric-global-cooling-reigns-not-the-ipccs-predicted-co2-global-warming.html) and the trend is toward cooling. We are experiencing record low sunspots with solar scientist predicting no spots by 2020. So, the real doomsday scenario is global cooling. Global cooling will shorten growing seasons pushing corn and wheat production out historical growing regions, causing a gap in production. The last time the sunspots disappeared, millions died from starvation, following wide spread crop failures. According to the historical solar cycles we are due for some super cold winters, early falls and late springs for the next 20-30 years. We have a fews years of grace, until the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation turns cold in 3-5 years. Then keep your snuggles handy, and learn to like root vegetables.

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  22. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    Neither side can claim the high ground. Iran/Contra had to have been known about by the administration – and approved; just as Fast and Furious was. It is the only sensible way to look at it. If Reagan, or his wing men, didn’t know about it; that administration must have had their collective heads permanently positioned as Third Eye Rectoscopes.
    http://www.thirdeyecolonoscopy.com/
    Also, it’s kind of a hoot that the paranoid fantasies of the right seem to be about the same as the paranoid fantasies of the left.
    The right sees jack-booted, big-government thugs roaming the streets with armored humvees, and sees themselves as “freedom fighters”, rising up to protect the country (and world) from the latest Commie takeover attempt- Go Wolverines! (been watching “Red Dawn” re-runs).
    The Left sees “The Man” with his boot on the pepper-sprayed face of the oppressed 99%, necessitating Earth First monkey wrenching, rioting in the streets and bank burning (and of course, guns and ammo stockpiling).
    I have heard about all the ammo sold at gun shows, apparently purchased by God fearing Americans to protect themselves from a Commie coup as a result of a rogue US government (and, of course, also to the Mexican drug lords to be fed to their hungry, Fast and Furious, AK-47s).
    I have also heard about the billions and billions (use Carl Sagan accent here) of bullets recently purchased by all manner of government agencies.
    So, were the government purchases of ammo a response to all the wannabe minutemen militia ammo purchases, or visa versa?
    Exit Question: Will the paranoia affecting the rightwing psyche subside as soon as a Republican POTUS is installed, or will the guns and ammo hoarding continue?

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  23. Paul Emery Avatar

    Well spoken Brad

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  24. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    If there is a repub POTUS I think sales will go up even more. For one, every teacher will have to be armed, as well as every popcorn seller at theaters, not to mention all patriots who want to protect themselves from the islamic fascist terrorist cells, the undocumented alien socialist rebels from South America, leftover Russian commies, the North Koreans, and of course the most dangerous of all, those American citizens and patriots who happen to disagree with the Wall Street tycoons’ vision of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

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  25. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    While the geographical boundaries may delineate certain subcultures in America, the laws they pass within those boundaries work for those subculture, within those boundaries. Establishing identical laws elsewhere will not result in identical crime stat outcomes. That is where GregLogic fails. Do you really want to walk the streets of Oakland, LA and SF, in certain areas, if all can CCW at will?
    BTW, the “why existence is possible at all” question is not answered by any of the physical sciences.

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  26. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    J’accuse–its a myth Russ. Simple confirmation bias on your part.
    Readers can first watch this little video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=u_0JZRIHFtk
    Then read the background:
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/no-warming-in-16-years-advanced.htm
    Then look at this graph:
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/graphics/Nuccitelli_OHC_Data.jpg
    But that is OK–I am sure the fruits, nuts, dried vegetables, 60 & 100 watt incandescent lightbulbs and horde of ammo you have will save you!

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  27. Russ Steele Avatar

    Steven@05:44
    OK, if that is how you want to play the game. Did you you actually look at the satellite data? Did not think so. Oh, well it would not make any difference, but the other readers will and that is what counts. Well, maybe not your friends in the AGW religious cult who think that real world data is just a myth.

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  28. Russ Steele Avatar

    Union has a poll: Would you support allowing teachers to be armed in Nevada County schools?
    67 Yes.
    29 No.

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  29. Russ Steele Avatar

    Steven@05:44PM
    Ooops: New paper finds Southern Oceans are losing heat
    A paper published today in Geophysical Research Letters finds from observations that the Southern Oceans show an annual net heat loss of -10 Wm-2. The paper is the first to study annual heat flux between the atmosphere and the Southern Oceans, a “key component of the global climate system: insulating the Antarctic polar region from the subtropics, transferring climate signals throughout the world’s oceans and forming the southern component of the global overturning circulation.” The finding contradicts warmist claims that the oceans are gaining ‘missing heat’ due to an increase in greenhouse gases.

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  30. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Ooops..link above by Posted by: Russ Steele | 13 January 2013 at 04:40 PM is broken
    Here is one that works: http://www.c3headlines.com
    I note, ocean temps not included in Russ’s “proof”…..that’s a pretty big deal.

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  31. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Wonder how that poll would have come out if the poll had asked, “Shall Nevada County place one trained armed guard per every 250 students in every Nevada County School at a cost of $98.00 per person in the County per year?”
    (23,147 school age children and young adults divided by 250 X approximately $100,000 per guard for salary, benefits, training, insurance and equipment, based on NRA estimate, dived by 98,000 residents = approximately $98.00 per person per year in new taxes)
    Want to bet it would be 60-40 the other way?

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  32. George Rebane Avatar

    To repeat myself, I make no claim to be ‘objective’ in any absolute sense, only within the reference frame of MY reality. I know other commenters here claim to speak from a more cosmological reference frame to which they are privy, but I have my limits.
    PaulE 423pm – I give Reagan a freer pass because he indeed was (according to my lights) fighting the spread of communism in central America. That to me is more salutary than surreptitiously passing guns to Mexican thugs in the attempt to frame America’s gun shops for supplying weapons to Mexican cartels. I picked my poison, you pick yours.
    BenE 437pm – there is nothing contradictory about my differentiating between the latitude I give my country for correcting itself, to the latitude that I might give a political party. The government (under any party) is NOT the country, but then, I repeat myself.
    BradC 454pm – the maintenance of an armed populace will continue regardless of which party occupies the White House. You liberals have a hard time focusing on the elements of debate. The pro-2nd Amendment crows views government, especially big government, with a gimlet eye no matter who is in charge. The watchword, as counseled by our Founders, is to keep our eyes on whoever is in power.
    JoeK 513pm – a truly worthless comment.
    DougK 527pm – ignorant statements like this only feed Greg’s (excessive) fury with you. As found several times in these pages, it was the late John Wheeler of Princeton who took as his summa project the question of ‘Why Existence?’. This is a deeper question that “why existence is possible at all” which the sciences have done an excellent job of answering in the standard course of research. In my meanderings through the philosophical terrain, the first (only?) philosophical tradition that has satisfactorily answered that question is Vedanta in their ‘Srimad Bhagavatam’ scripture – we are in the ‘game of God’. Christianity and Judaism speak of a lonely God, and then quickly go on to deny that God had any “need” for His creation, thereby returning us to our original fog. Many physicists today are pursuing Wheeler’s quest in its most teleological focus. The artsy fartsy fields have had their day, and now they sound oh so yesterday when even attempting to cover this part of the shoreline of man’s knowledge.
    StevenF 634pm – that is a red herring argument. The cost of armed staff in schools, whether through arming existing staff and/or using community volunteers would not be anywhere near the numbers that the Left foists in this part of the debate.

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  33. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Yeah well George, if we are going to arm staff in schools, I don’t want community volunteers; they could be just as bat shit crazy as the people we are protecting children against—but did you not note? I used the figure that NRA Board member David Keene used on CNN late last week.
    But I have another question….I have no children…why should I pay for anyone else’s? Sounds like welfare for breeders to me.

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  34. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 714pm – I think that your ascribing trained and qualified CCW permit volunteers “just as bat shit crazy as the people we are protecting children against” is a gratuitous retort and false criticism, and effectively brings our dialogue on this issue to a close.
    But your “welfare for breeders” remark is even more revealing. Since we are putatively attempting to provide a safer learning environment for the next generation, and whatever reasonable approach we choose to do that will cost money, those monies become part and parcel of public education costs. If, as a non-breeder, you refuse those, would you not be able to list a whole passel of other currently ongoing schooling costs that you would similarly resist paying? I would think so. Perhaps that is a worthy notion to pursue that is totally independent of preventing school shootings. We conservetarians have long argued against paying for utterly ineffective and wasteful government spending. It now appears that we may have an ally in you.

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  35. Russ Steele Avatar

    Oh No, Big time liberal caught lying: BILL CLINTON FIBS ABOUT GUN CONTROL
    At a speech before the Conusmer Electronics Show in Las Vegas on January 9, Bill Clinton stated: “Half of all mass killings in the United States have occurred since the assault weapon ban expired in 2005, half in the history of the country.” But that statement is untrue, as Glenn Kessler of the Washngton Post demonstrates.
    Asked by Kessler about his statement, Clinton’s spokesman declined to comment or to say where Clinton got his numbers. As Kessler, a professional fact-checker, says, “this always makes us suspicous.”
    It seems clear that Clinton either made up his statistic or presented something he had heard without bothering to see whether it is true. In other words, he either lied outright or showed a reckless disregard for the truth.
    Some things never change

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  36. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Well George, I’d love to hear your explanation of the difference between “Why existence?” and “Why is existence possible at all?”
    Physics may be able to delineate what we think we know of existence, but that’s about it.
    As for arming the staff, kids are not stupid, and they will ferret out just who is armed, and target the weapon for theft. Kids are not stupid, the one who does the stealing will not even be enrolled in that particular school. Accidents happen in even the best planned burglaries and robberies. Deaths from guns at schools would be worse than the problems we have now. And we haven’t even scratched the surface of two staff members who don’t like one another very much.
    Jobs will be created, making bullet proof vests for our children and the staff.

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  37. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    You must be aware of the CIA profiteering of crack cocaine sales on the streets of this country to support the Contras. This led to the deaths of of untold US citizens. Of course they were largely poor blacks so perhaps they were considered fair game to sacrifice for fighting the commies in a foreign country.
    “The CIA’s inspector general later opened a second investigation looking into the matter and also determined that the agency was aware of the Contra involvement in drug trafficking, did nothing to stop it and in fact interceded with the Drug Enforcement Administration to block investigations — and then misled Congress about it….”
    “On October 31, 1996, the Washington Post ran a follow up story to the San Jose Mercury News series titled “CIA, Contras and Drugs: Questions on Links Linger.” The story drew on court testimony in 1990 of Fabio Ernesto Carrasco, a pilot for a major Columbian drug smuggler named George Morales. As a witness in a drug trial, Carrasco testified that in 1984 and 1985, he piloted planes loaded with weapons for contras operating in Costa Rica. The weapons were offloaded, and then drugs stored in military bags were put on the planes which flew to the United States. “I participated in two [flights] which involved weapons and cocaine at the same time,” he told the court.
    Carrasco also testified that Morales provided “several million dollars” to Octaviano Cesar and Adolfo “Popo” Chamorro, two rebel leaders working with the head of the contras’ southern front, Eden Pastora. The Washington Post reported that Chamorro said he had called his CIA control officer to ask if the contras could accept money and arms from Morales, who was at the time under indictment for cocaine smuggling. “They said [Morales] was fine,” Chamorro told the Post.”
    http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/nsaebb2.htm

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  38. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I am quite happy to be paying my taxes for public education, thank you. I consider it both my duty and a patriotic investment in the future of the country I love. But if we are picking and choosing which taxes we pay I will opt out of 40% of defense.

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  39. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Posted by: Paul Emery | 13 January 2013 at 07:51 PM
    Another sad part of the story Paul references is that Gary Webb, the SJMN reporter who broke the “Dark Alliance” story in 1996, was hounded out of main stream media by critics due to CIA lies and committed suicide by shooting himself twice in the head (a nifty trick if you ask me) in 2004.

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  40. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 751pm – Was not aware that anyone at CIA was indicted, let alone convicted, of any criminal wrongdoing.

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  41. Paul Emery Avatar

    Oh yes, this from Ron Paul. I doubt if he would make this up.
    “Texas Congressman Ron Paul has long lobbied against government restrictions on the drug use of American citizens, but in the past the outspoken presidential hopeful has linked the US with narcotics closer than one might imagine.
    As early as 1988, Paul was preaching of a relationship between the Central Intelligence Agency and Contras in Nicaragua amid the Iran-Contra scandal that plagued the Reagan administration. That relationship, said Paul, was one built with an intricate drug trade.
    According to the GOP frontrunner in the race to the White House, the CIA imported cocaine from the Contras into America and then supplied domestic drug dealers with their loot, a transaction that allowed the Agency to operate its illegal trade with its Latin American neighbors that would have been otherwise impossible to fund with legitimate money.
    Instead, said Paul, the CIA used dirty money made by the Agency’s drug deals to help afford the cost of arming the Contras against Sandinistas.”
    http://rt.com/usa/news/paul-cia-drug-government-053/

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  42. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I understand the CIA is regularly indicted for criminal activities.

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  43. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 819pm – I guess Congressman Paul’s allegation is all that’s required to wrap up the case. And all those indictments, they probably all went to trial and were properly adjudicated.
    Now I would not be at all surprised if the CIA played a little fast and loose in implementing what they believed the WH wanted in the arena of foreign policy. Just as I wouldn’t be surprised at another President’s Dept of Justice trying to frame American businesses along the way to rolling back some more 2nd Amendment rights of American citizens. Man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do.

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  44. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    There were plenty of indictments and convictions in Iran Contra but as you recall they were pardoned by Papa Bush when he left office.
    Explaining those pardons, Bush said the “common denominator of their motivation — whether their actions were right or wrong — was patriotism.”
    Brings a tear to my eye.
    All that from the former director of the CIA taking care of his own operators. What a joke. What would your reaction be if Obama pardoned anyone convicted for Fast and Furious?

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  45. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 954pm – Excellent question Paul. I am just as pissed about Fast & Furious as any progressive is about Iran-Contra. I already consider FAF to be history with no indictments, convictions, or even pardons. The lamestream has already exonerated everyone.

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  46. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    I like this tack that Paul and Steve are taking. But then, I’m just a softie for long-time crimes being finally addressed, and the perps going to prison. FINALLY! At the very least, send Elliott Abrams to Gitmo. Git ‘r dun.

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  47. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Shoe bombers vs mass shooters? What’s the difference? Airplanes and buildings cost some corporation somewhere money?

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  48. Russ Steele Avatar

    Obama the greatest gun saleman of all time:
    Honest Americans Bought Enough Guns in November and December to Outfit the Entire Chinese and Indian Armies
    The Obama Administration is the number one threat to the nation’s gun rights advocates.  In the four years since Barack Obama was first elected president in November 2008, an estimated 67 million firearms have been purchased in the United States. In November a record 2 million guns were sold in America.  This was followed up by another record in December.  2.7 million guns were sold in America in the last month of 2012.

    And, I do not think they will be giving them up any time in the near future.

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  49. Russ Steele Avatar

    Hey Steven, Check this out:
    Annual Sea Surface Temperature (SST) Anomaly Update for 2012 | Bob Tisdale – Climate Observations
    2012 Global sea surface temperature anomalies ranked 10th warmest, with the peak year continuing to be 1998. The Arctic Ocean sea surface temperature anomalies were the warmest seen in the 31 years of this dataset, which comes as no surprise. The existence of the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation in the North Atlantic and the exceptional Arctic sea ice loss in 2012 both contributed to this. At the other end of the globe, Southern Ocean sea surface temperature anomalies were near their lowest in 31 years, ranking 27th. Good thing the Southern Ocean covers more of the globe than the Arctic Ocean.
    A bit of trivia: The sea surface temperature anomalies for Pacific Ocean—the largest ocean basin on the planet—have not warmed in 19 years.

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  50. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Paul,
    Thousands of innocent people were murdered by the orders of the Reagan administration by illegal arms trade to our enemy Iran to replenish weapons we gave the puppet Shah after we overthrew democratically elected Mohammad Mossadeq because he had the nerve to kick out a foreign oil company. At the same time we took Saddam Hussein and Iraq of nation terror list and gave them weapons and intelligence to fight Iran. Saddam during the Reagan administration used those weapons to gas the Kurds. Reagan, Bush, and republicans seem to be ok with it in the 80’s but were outraged about it in 2003. Reagan then laundered the illegal arms money through drug lords that were given the green light in exporting their products to the streets of the US. Reagan administration then denied congress and funded, armed, and trained mercenary death squads that killed tens of thousands of innocent people.
    But George is upset about a George W Bush program that the Obama administration inherited that put more guns out there, kind of ironic if you ask me. The idea of fast and furious pisses me off as well when the best way to combat drug war crime is to legalize drugs not pump more guns into the situation. But then again I thought more people with more guns meant we would all be safer?
    ps I won’t even get into Usama bin Laden and how we trained, funded, and armed him along with what eventually became the Taliban during the Reagan years as well.

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