Rebane's Ruminations
January 2013
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George Rebane

The 14dec12 Newtown massacre has been blown into a celebrated “crisis” for the nation’s gun ban contingent.  And President Obama has made certain that this crisis will also not go to waste in his overarching program that is fundamentally transforming America.  He gave VP Joe Biden the job of fashioning the next set of regulations that will further criminalize law abiding citizens who own and bear guns.  Remarkably (or not), Biden will present his panel’s rapidly reached conclusions and resulting recommendations within the next few days.

MinutemenThe Second Amendment is one of the two or three major dividers in our ideologically polarized country.  And its public debate (mirrored in these pages) shines a bright light on the enormous differences that separate our self-declared progressives from those who consider themselves to be classic liberals and libertarians – more compactly labeled our Left and Right.

The major element of debate about the extent of public ownership of guns is their beneficial functions, if any, in a free, open, and liberal society that intends to remain so.  These functions are summarized in gun uses for 1) self-defense, 2) sport (including hunting), and the maintenance of 3) par force (q.v.) against a government turned rogue.


The following factors enter the debate as propositions and even axioms (self-evident truths).  This list is arbitrarily ordered and no doubt incomplete.

1.    Self-defense is not a salutary function of a private citizen.  Maintaining the safety of a citizen in his person is the role of the state through its local constabularies.  (Private individuals defending themselves are “practicing vigilantism” and “taking the law into their own hands”.)
2.    Sporting uses of firearms builds and reinforces the darker aspects of human character, and does not benefit the maintenance of an amiable society.
3.    The sport killing of animals is a barbaric throwback that needs to be eliminated from civilized society.
4.    The Bastiat Triangle of rights is not required to maintain liberal systems of governance.  It is a throwback to an age that no longer exists or informs us.
5.    The Bastiat Triangle is fundamental to any and every constituting formalism that unites a free people in an enduring manner.  Our Founders embedded these rights in our Constitution.
6.    It is the role of the federal government to interpret the Second Amendment and to enforce its uniform interpretation across the land.
7.    All governments not actively kept in check by their governed tend toward autocracy (usually through democratically initiated and subsequently forced redistribution of wealth, dispersing favored entitlements, and debasing the currency).
8.    Powers and collective functions in society should accrue without limit to the highest levels of government because it has the broadest purview of social needs and can assemble the qualified elites to exercise them for the greatest good.
9.    Powers and collective functions in society should accrue within limits to the lowest levels of government because these have the most accurate and immediate purview of local social needs, and can execute them with minimum impact on individual liberties.
10.    The main role of liberal and broad ownership of weapons in a free society is to enable citizens to band together as the check of last resort against a rogue government.  Government should always be at the mercy of its citizens, deporting itself accordingly by enabling its own renewal and, if necessary, replacement through established legal and facile means.  Government’s main role is to maintain the sovereignty of the nation (a nation and its government are not the same).
11.     Government is the final and proper repository of its citizens’ values, mores, and social goals.  Opposition to government, especially one based on its citizens’ use of force, is sedition, and should be dealt with swiftly and severely for the greater good of society.  To maintain the peace, government is justified to use all means necessary (especially as it pertains to gun ownership) to prevent its restraint or its replacement by its citizenry.
12.    For the greatest social good, democracy should be unbridled, practiced nationally, and applied over the broadest bases to let the people decide all levels of public policy and public norms.  The collective always makes the wisest decisions, especially as these affect the permitted individual behaviors in a just society.  The current will of the people should not be inhibited by dated and outmoded maxims.
13.    For the greatest social good, democracy should be bridled, practiced locally (in a distributed manner; see also subsidiarity), and applied in the large through republican mechanisms founded on an established, broadly understood, amendable, and durable basis (e.g. the Constitution) for the nation’s laws.  Collective will is both volatile and unreliable, and therefore should be invoked judiciously and exercised prudently in order to sustainably provide for the broadest liberties of a free people.

So now we have an orchestrated public policy circus going on in Washington through a panel headed arguably by the administration’s chief political clown.  And after the charade of meeting with parties “expressing all viewpoints”, the panel will rush out its politically polished recommendations that will have no bearing on preventing the kind of events that gave rise to this latest rush to judgment.  However, it will provide a framework for gun ban acolytes nationwide to ratchet down another notch or two the people’s right to own and bear arms.

The lamestream will play its compliant role and trumpet the imagined ‘benefits’ of the new provisions while lamenting that more was not done to roll back the nation’s ‘gun culture’.  It will do this by sticking a mike in the faces of the bereaved loved ones and our progressive pundits whose intellectual peaks will again be revealed by arguments such as – ‘But what if it were your child who got shot; wouldn’t you do everything possible to prevent that from happening again?’  Their elicited correct answer is one that appeals to simple minds who have little ability to see that their concern is not even being addressed, and in the larger sense that their wellbeing is jeopardized by a growing Leviathan.

A saner society would make its decisions based on realities and facts relating aggregate probabilities and likelihoods, not on emotional pyrotechnics based on low probability anecdotal happenings.  But this is not to be, for in the final argument the socialist sees no utility in the widespread ownership of weapons.  In fact, to them that ownership is only a liability that obstructs all intents and means to achieve a centrally managed society that can ultimately be populated by enlightened and correctly behaving altruists whom Marx labeled “the communist man”.  And this part of the debate, dear reader, is something that will scarcely see the light of day in this ‘land of the free and home of the brave’.  The focus will remain fixed on the proper needs of deer and duck hunting.

[13jan13 update]  In my sixty years of observing our country’s Presidents, never have I seen the likes of Barak Hussein Obama.  If America survives, I believe history will remember him as the nation’s greatest divider.   We now have Americans starting to build redoubt communities where the like-minded will gather to practice their life styles and be in a place to defend their way of life if/when the time of troubles comes to this land.  The latter looks more and more likely as Obama enlarges his imperial presidency.

The Citadel is the name of one (the first?) of these redoubt communities that is now taking applications for residents of a fortress like city to be built in western Idaho.  More here.

Also heard on the grapevine – Obama’s hard left is beginning to have second thoughts about his promoting a big ratchet on the road to an international gun ban.  The response to the emotional nonsense coming out of Washington after Newtown is without precedence.  Tens of millions of guns and accessories (e.g. large cap magazines) have been sold, ammunition is gone from gun shop shelves, and waiting lists are long for the AR type long guns.  Prices have gone through the roof.

This coming Saturday 19 January 2013 there will be nationwide demonstrations in support of the Second Amendment at local gun stores and shooting ranges.  As a lifelong NRA member, shooting enthusiast, and promoter of an armed citizenry, I intend to throw in my ‘stubborn ounces’ in opposition to the latest managed hysteria to disarm America.

You say the little efforts that I make
will do no good; they never will prevail
to tip the hovering scale
where justice hangs in balance.

I don’t think I ever thought they would.
But I am prejudiced beyond debate
in favor of my right to choose which side
shall feel the stubborn ounces of my weight.
(Bonaro Overstreet)

Posted in , , , ,

214 responses to “Gun Control 2013 (updated 13jan13)”

  1. Ben Avatar
    Ben

    If there were any question about what level of freedom our President believes we should have, with respect to our ability to defend ourselves, I believe his record as an Illinois legislator makes it clear. President Obama does not believe we as citizens should possess firearms, even for hunting or self defense. His latest effort to restrict access to firearms has nothing to do with scary looking guns the left has labeled assault weapons. The President and his leftist cadre simply believe that the actions of a monster have presented an opportunity to take a step toward their goal of completely disarming the public. They’re probably right. The Obama electoral victory of 2012 made it abundantly clear that this nation has lost its once voracious appetite for freedom. The debate is no longer one about constitutional rights, we have none; it is a policy discussion about how best to keep society safe. And as with most policy discussions with this President, facts don’t matter. He has an agenda, and there is nobody to stop him from implementing it. What are the chances the Congress won’t give the President everything he wants on gun control and we’ll hear apologies from Speaker Boehner and Mitch McConnell along the lines of, “It was the best deal Republicans could get.” With or without Congress, the President has vowed to act. And if a clearly unconstitutional law, order, or mandate were to make it to the Supreme Court, count on Chief Justice Roberts to bless it by calling it a tax or use some other contortion to abdicate his responsibility. http://www.whitehousedossier.com/2013/01/11/obama-opposed-gun-ban-exception-defend-home/

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  2. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    So I’m a “lib” AND I support the 2nd Amendment. I live in California where gun control has been real active and has a long list of rules that are some of the most restrictive in the Country.
    So now we have Hollywood celebrities screaming for more gun control and complaining about violence and they demand “A Plan”. But the fact is THEY promote violance and THEY make a lot of money off it. They demand one thing while they do another.
    Watch these to videos. The first is a bit “adult” and compares what THEY say vs. what THEY do in a side-by-side video.
    The second video is about the Hollywood celeb’s and their expensive, highly trained and well armed body guards and personal security forces they have. Mean time the average person is left to defend for themselves as we sure don’t have our own armed, trained, for hire security force to do it.
    Here’s video one:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxRlpRcorEU
    Here’s video two:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqQ5ij3UYb0

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  3. Gregory Avatar

    Steve Enos, thanks especially for the second link, the kid’s OK.
    No need to ban private security… just forbid its deductibility on federal or state returns for either individuals or companies.
    On the basic subject, can anyone tell me why the police “need” more than 10 round magazines, and how that’s different than an individual’s “need”?

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  4. Ben Avatar
    Ben

    Interesting question about the needs of law enforcement, Greg. If law enforcement authority comes from the people, how can the people not have every right to the same tools of self defense available to their servants?

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  5. Videodrone Avatar
    Videodrone

    you need as much as you need – if there are 2 or three “bad guys” it might take 12 to 15 rounds expended to neutralize the situation – or witness the bank robbery in SoCal several years ago when the 2 perps were not only well armed but armored as well.
    what is not discussed is the number of times guns have prevented a crime that never even gets reported

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  6. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    So who would this armed citizenry be shooting at if they had to confront a ” government turned rogue?”
    the National Guard, Highway Patrol, Nevada City Police, Game Wardens, the Marines, Air Force and Army,
    some hidden secret police, the secret commie armies training in the Sierras, eco warriers ? Can you give more details about who this might be? It seems like our citizens and neighbors to me.

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  7. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 645pm – IMHO, that is a snarky little comment, else you are a naif (which I don’t believe). An armed citizenry today needs no more training or detailed directions about whom to oppose when the time comes than did our forebears in 1775.

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  8. Videodrone Avatar
    Videodrone

    Paul, how many LE do you think would attempt to confiscate firearms in rural areas?

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  9. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Michael the other day posted a link to the “Australian solution.” There solution was a massive buy back of certain classes of weapons in 1996/97 following a horrific Tasmanian massacre, and another one in 2003 following another one.
    There have been several studies regarding the efficacy of these new laws with mixed results. The one that caught my eye was the one that had some scientific structural analysis while the others had sociological generalizations. (still interesting, but no hard data._
    First start here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia
    And note that the vast majority of massacres were against UNARMED indigenous peoples. (think I’m bullshitting? read this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Indigenous_Australians)
    Then go here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_%28Australia%29
    Which discusses a pivotal event in Australian gun policy in 1996 (white people got shot).
    Then finally read this:
    https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.melbourneinstitute.com/downloads/working_paper_series/wp2008n17.pdf&sa=U&ei=N-rwULHELa_liwKctYHABw&ved=0CAcQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNEjeQ0AlVY5Y64fgcXC4uFlOJCWhA
    Which comes to the sobering conclusion that seizing weapons doesn’t really stop people from shooting up other people.

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  10. Ryan Mount Avatar

    My apologies. The last link is a horrific URL and indeed broken. (ironic since it’s the the most important).
    Try this for the sober report I refer to:
    http://www.melbourneinstitute.com/downloads/working_paper_series/wp2008n17.pdf

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  11. Gregory Avatar

    Rogue is rogue, Paul. When Condi Rice was a little girl, her dad and the other men in the neighborhood sat quietly in their homes with their guns while nightriders, with the tacit approval and, most expect, including members of the local constabulary, went looking for Negroes to harass. Few shots had to be fired, cowards looking for trouble look for soft targets.
    You miss the basic point; as long as the people retain the right to keep and bear arms, there probably won’t be any rogue action by any governmental agency. The Swiss haven’t had many problems in the last several centuries and even during WWII, the Japanese military were aware if they tried an invasion they’d potentially be facing a rifle from behind every blade of grass.

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  12. Videodrone Avatar
    Videodrone

    one major difference between American Citizens and most other inhabitants of the 3rd rock from Sol
    we are not subjects

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  13. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    The divide as illustrated on my Facebook stream:

    Note that my solution does not depend on outlaws obeying the laws.
    http://farstars.blogspot.com/2012/12/refined-version-keeping-guns-away-from.html
    It uses the potential loss of cash by legitimate gun owners, if they get sloppy or deliberately allow their guns to fall into the wrong hands. I guess youknowwho will never do an honest comparison between the quantity and quality of gun powder in a .223 vs the quantity and quality of gunpowder in a .22LR. It took George to get the job done right.

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  14. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Re.: “…how can the people not have every right to the same tools of self defense available to their servants?”
    Horse. Left. Barn.
    Sound wave weapons. Weaponized drones. Space-based lasers. Various “soft” crowd pleasers. Chemicals and other irritants. Robots, both air and ground-based.
    Sorry guys, you and your buddies with some AR-15s and M-1 Garands aren’t going to be able to do much. OK sure, you might get the local constabulary to back you, and maybe even a local Army base or 3, but if Washington D.C. were to ever feel truly threatened, you would be toast, up to and including the use of whatever weapon of mass destruction works best.
    It’s time to rethink the strategy, folks.

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  15. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Greg, the kid video is silly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqQ5ij3UYb0).
    Yes, the celebrities have security guards. That’s because the American culture of gun violence makes them targets. They don’t want to be targets anymore, and they see moderate gun rules and regulations as a way to not only keep them from being killed by a gun wacko, but maybe even a coupla classrooms full of kids.
    Frankly, it’s not worth debating on this blog. You guys are not getting the whole marketing thing, you are fundamentally NOT UNDERSTANDING how the messaging is working.
    You are LOSING in the marketplace of ideas. Not because your ideas are bad, but because your delivery is so ONEROUS.
    But do carry on. This will be fun to watch.

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  16. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    BTW George, I would like to enter my interpretation of “gun wacko” into your RR glossary: “Someone who should not have access to guns, who is mentally unstable and for whom the family has tried with no success to deal with that mental illness, and who for some reason or other is able to gain access to guns and kills multiple persons.”

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  17. L Avatar
    L

    Michael A, ask Bashar Assad how easy it is to stamp out unrest with an armed civilian population opposed to being stomped. And I’m not as confident as you (having been there) the US armed forces would show the same loyalty as the Syrian. If everyday gun crime were the target, they’d be after hand guns, not assault weapons, no? L

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  18. Russ Steele Avatar

    Michael@12:29AM
    Here is an example of losing control of the message: http://senatorfeinstein.com
    More to come. The messaging war has just begun. Stay Tuned!

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  19. George Rebane Avatar

    On ‘The Great Divide …’ piece I posted the following comment re gun control. It is the argument that the Left never wants to address about the purpose and function of par force.
    MichaelA 1029am – Right on schedule. That argument against the 2nd Amend and the continued viability of the Constitution is a classical liberal shibboleth. It assumes that any rebellion will be a stasist standoff between a permanently underarmed populace and a permanently superior state sponsored military, with its foregone outcome. This is a gross error that has been disproved an uncounted number of times, and as recently as by the Arab spring uprisings and the current civil war in Syria. And please reread my par force paper so we don’t have to go around this ‘hydrogen bomb in the basement’ nonsense again.
    A rogue government will immediately seek to brand armed citizen resistance against it as fomented by foreign terrorists or a sedition by a minority (the latter is technically correct). Any successful resistance must stay alive long enough to get its message out to the nation, and to the armed forces. Anyone who has been in the US military knows how that institution will respond when asked to engage underarmed citizens willing to lay down their lives for liberty.
    As history has shown, it is all in how well any resistance can go through its fragile birth and make its cause known. That is why tyrants and pre-rogue governments want a disarmed populace so that massive arrests can take place quickly and quietly. It was ever thus.
    Posted by: George Rebane | 09 January 2013 at 11:12 AM

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  20. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    I can’t speak for the entire military, but I know 5 young folk who are in or just out of the military. Most have multiple tours in the middle east. If they were ordered by Obama to fire at Americans citizens I know every one of them would turn and shoot the one that gave the order.

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  21. Russ Steele Avatar

    Oh my, more problems for the messaging:
    A PALPABLE LACK OF ENTHUSIASM: Dem Senator Mark Begich: I’m “not interested” in a new assault-weapons ban. “Other red-state Democrats up for reelection: Mary Landrieu, Max Baucus, Tim Johnson, Kay Hagan, and Mark Pryor. Landrieu and Baucus voted no when the last AWB came up for renewal in 2004, and although Pryor voted yes, Arkansas wasn’t quite as red then as it is now. There’s no chance Reid will get to 60 in the Senate for a new ban; there’s a very slim chance that he won’t even get to 50. If you’re Pryor and you’re facing a tough campaign on unfavorable terrain, what’s your incentive for voting for a new AWB that hasn’t a prayer of passing?” Especially when it’s not going to get through the House.

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  22. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    PaulE 645pm – IMHO, that is a snarky little comment, else you are a naif (which I don’t believe). An armed citizenry today needs no more training or detailed directions about whom to oppose when the time comes than did our forebears in 1775.
    Posted by: George Rebane | 11 January 2013 at 07:00 PM
    Lets just be clear here boys, the essence of this potion of the case for the 2nd amendment is that we will need to kill policemen, government representatives, members of our military and political leaders. Violent revolution is not about handing out daisies…it is about shooting people in the head.
    That’s not a “snarky” comment, its the facts.

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  23. George Rebane Avatar

    As an overarching afterthought on the progressives’ belief system as it pertains to their counsel that resisting our government’s technologically superior military is futile – that may explain the Left’s worship of anything relating to big government. It is the secular humanist analogue of other belief systems (i.e. religions) what worship beings which are omniscient and omnipotent. When viewed from that perspective, their faith may have some logic behind it after all – government is their god.
    And it does appear that SteveF (927pm) is beginning to get a glimmer here. He seems to understand against whom the Founders provided citizens with the ability to bear arms. What still clouds his and other such minds is that to them the inconceivable notion that “policemen, government representatives, members of military, and political leaders” would ever do anything that deserved armed resistance. But it’s a start, and there is yet time.

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  24. Paul Emery Avatar

    RE: George Rebane | 11 January 2013 at 07:00 PM
    “An armed citizenry today needs no more training or detailed directions about whom to oppose when the time comes than did our forebears in 1775.”
    So at that moment of truth millions of Americans will, without leadership or prompting, exercise their 2nd Amendment option each in his own way. Government bad!! dog catcher bang bang, city police-bang bang, neighbors who are pro government sympathizers-bang bang. Millions of Timothy McVeys each fighting their own revolution without “training or detailed directions about whom to oppose”

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  25. Paul Emery Avatar

    One more thing George. In your view what is the threshold that the Second Amendment Option is triggered? Who will blow the trumpet and shout “charge”.

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  26. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    RE: armed rebellion against a rogue govt. One of my oldest and best friends has a brother who was a Major in the CA National guard. During the anti-war riots after the Kent State Shootings he told my friend that if he were ordered to fire and his brother was in the line of fire… too bad. so maybe or maybe not Americans would shoot other American rebels. It would depend on the facts or lies as the case may be. The goons who work for Blackwater like defense contractors would shoot, no questions asked. During Tiananmen Square the local militias and police units refused to leave their barracks and march on the students so they brought in soldiers from Manchuria who knew nothing of the riots and were told the kids were evil. A rogue gov’t will find a way to slaughter resistance if needed. The idea is to never let them gain power in the first place. One definition of fascism is the marriage of corporations and government. We are already there in that respect and the hate and name calling (moron party, etc.) that seems to echo on these pages toward opposing opinions has a brownshirt tone to it. If it ever comes to America, and I doubt it, the poor and hungry will rise up and invade the gated communities, not for power but for food. Fasten your seatbelts and take the safety off your assault rifles for the masses will be coming for their fair share one way or the other. The American Revolution was about equality of opportunity not just the replacement of a king with robber barons.

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  27. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    To bring a different angle to this conversation, this issue isn’t about guns it is about inequality and mental health. In less equal societies violent crime increases as does mental health. If we put guns into the equation we then get what we have over the last two decades or so.
    The US in the 40’s through 70’s was the most socially mobile nation on the planet. Today we are the second worst out of developed nations for inequality and social mobility. Other symptoms of inequality is the increased
    Teenage Birth
    Obesity
    Heart Disease
    Poor Health
    Diabetes
    High Imprisonment
    Since the Reagan Counter Revolution we have seen all of these issues explode in our nation. Conservative Supply Side Economics and the policies that follow it have destroyed what was gained in the progressive era that the Tea Party wants to get back to. We are in the second coming of the robber baron ear and the gilded age. Only extreme right wing ideology could or want to move us back in time to some of the most unequal times in US history.

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  28. Russ Steele Avatar

    Paul@10:12AM
    I suggest that you come up to the Range for Father’s Day Ammo sale and interview the 400 plus people with the hand trucks picking up a years plus supply of ammo, that is if they will talk to you. A better approach might be to just wander around and listen to the conversations. You will find that many of the folks are preparing to respond to an oppressive government. They are organized, have some coherent leadership and a plan of action. Nevada County is only one location where people are preparing. There are similar groups through out California and the Western states. You will be surprised who are members of these groups, and they are very selective on who gets to join. Entry requires a skill set needed by the group. Ex-military have many of the needed skill sets. You need to expand your social circle and you will be surprised what you will discover.

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  29. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Yeah Paul, go out to the range and meet the Militia! (But you can’t get in because you are a Hippie; the Hippies will have to start their own militia, then, when the sh*# hits the fan, the Hippie militia will be the first ones the ‘real American militia’ goes after because they are holders of a dangerous alternative world view)
    Don’t you somehow find it ironic that the people who are arming to resist an ‘oppressive government’ are so often the very same ones who collect a pension for supporting an ‘oppressive government’.

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  30. Russ Steele Avatar

    BenE@
    You wrote, “In less equal societies violent crime increases” Really? where do you get your information?
    Adjusted violent victimization rates. Number of victimizations per 1,000 population age 12 or older
    1973 47.7
    1974 48.0
    1975 48.4

    2007 20.4
    2008 19.0
    2009 16.9
    Looks like the trend is less violent crime, not more. According to your measure we are becoming a more equatable society.
    More Details HERE: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/tables/viortrdtab.cfm

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  31. earlcrabb Avatar

    It seems inconceivable to some here that enough citizens might actually revolt against the government, whether their chances to succeed are remote or not. Maybe they ought to re-read the history of the United States. There were many with an attachment to the mother country who felt that way back then also.Who in their right mind would challenge the greatest military on earth?
    You don’t have to believe Russ’s stats or observations of folks getting ready for an uncertain future. The truth is in the staggering amount of firearms and ammo sold since Newtown. It should be clear to any yo-yo that Americans will never give up their guns.
    The Dems know the numbers, and you can already see some backpedaling on any onerous new restrictions. The prospect of a gun-free America with schools protected by invisible bullet-proof unicorns is as far away as ever.

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  32. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 1012am, 1023am – If those are serious comments, perhaps my 700pm assessment was premature.

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  33. Gregory Avatar

    Earl, Dems may be shooting themselves in the foot, slo-mo. Where’s Sam Peckinpah when you need him?
    Was heading out from Reno not trailed by twenty hounds (obscure song reference, don’t sweat it) on Wednesday and stopped at Cabela’s before heading up to Donner Pass. They sure have sold out of a lot of interesting hardware, and the cases of ammo waiting to be sold are all gone, with signs telling all that they’re limited to 10 boxes (20 to 50 rounds a box) at checkout. The only magazines greater than 10 rounds on the rack were for guns I’d never heard of.
    I looked, and they still don’t have any of those handguns with magic biometric sensors desired by those looking for the perfect handgun, one that won’t actually fire. Maybe next Xmas.

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  34. Russ Steele Avatar

    Obama, the greatest gun and ammo salesman ever! This may turnout to be his only real legacy!

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  35. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, I think you’re still unclear on the concept about how any shooting would theoretically start. There will be no TPP Brigade advance on Beale AFB to commandeer a U2 or a drone. No attempt to overthrow anybody.
    Sorry if this is too repetitive, but back in the last big riots in LA, when law and order broke down, homeowners in Sycamore Canyon and other areas blocked off their streets and brought out all sorts of amazing weaponry to insure outsides didn’t get in. My favorite quote from one conflicted progressive was something like ‘I always thought when the revolution came I’d be on the other side’. I’ve no doubt the locals expect they’ll have to do this, and some of those suspect some in authority will decide the Constitution is suspended until everything settles down and begin to pacify the area, sweeping areas clean.
    Does anyone remember H. Ross Parrot (or at least the real guy the Sesame St. character was patterned after) saying that you have to shut your car off to fix it, and he should be elected President so he can suspend the Constitution and fix the country? And he actually got a lot of loonies agreeing?
    The militia types are not scary; don’t bother them, they won’t bother you. Just don’t say what you really think about both kinds of music… you know, Country and Western. Puts em on edge.

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  36. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    ” If they were ordered by Obama to fire at Americans citizens I know every one of them would turn and shoot the one that gave the order. ”
    So we don’t need to defend ourselves from a government with armed forces made up by ourselves? How about that! You’ve just made the case against local militias.
    The way to prevent or at least reduce a good deal of the gun violence, is to make sure there are strong penalties, financial, for anyone who is the registered owner of a gun, which gets loose of their possession, and it subsequently used to commit a crime. This could include a CCW person who gets blackjacked from behind and then shot with their own weapon. That way, people would be much more respectful and thoughtful about such purchases, and the responsibilities that go with them. A gun just is NOT a protective Starship shield, that means you will be safe under all conditions, and you have to understand, that letting a gun loose into the underworld, is almost as bad as pulling the trigger yourself. We no longer excuse drunk drivers, it’s time to stop excusing those who let their guns ripped off, or who sell to those who shouldn’t have them, or even allow said persons such usage. Arabs signing up for steering only flight schools are being discouraged….

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  37. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    GregL, the Syrians had full scale weapons and massive clips, otherwise they would all be dead by now.

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  38. Gregory Avatar

    Keach, more silliness from you, no surprise. You’re great at solving the world’s problems in the same way Hunter S. Thompson filled those column-inches, off the top of one’s head. At least Hunter was always amusing and had something worthwhile to say.
    The way to reduce crime is to catch criminals and put them away. The way to keep the severely mentally ill away from guns is to not punish MD’s who commit them, and for their families to keep their guns firmly out of their hands. That includes those locally, including an officer of the law, who knew their kin was off their rocker and heavily armed before they shot up Nevada County. The laws regarding negligence are well formed and up to the job.
    Regarding lawbreaking, there’s fresh meat in the grinder about a solicitation of bribery that implicates Harry Reid. Could be interesting.
    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home3/55598812-200/johnson-swallow-rawle-attorney.html.csp

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  39. George Rebane Avatar

    We have yet to include the new and improved extra-curricular activities of Homeland Security and FEMA (like in FEMA Corps) in these discussions.

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  40. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    My writings are intended to make sure gun owners don’t allow their charges to go “Feral.” http://farstars.blogspot.com/2012/12/refined-version-keeping-guns-away-from.html
    Greg, current gun laws aren’t working so well, so say 30 dead people a day, day in and day out, according to nation crime stats by FBI.

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  41. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Number of gun deaths each year in the U.S.?
    How about breaking that number out a bit? How many of the death by gun incidents are suicides that are counted in the total number of deaths per year that most are using in the gun “debate”?

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  42. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    re Doug at 1:01 – I said ‘I can’t speak for the entire military’ – my point was that the entire military would be conflicted and not of one mind about whom to obey. I knew some one would bring up the student riots. That was mostly the proto-OWS and anarchy crowd. I was referring to the good soldiers in the military now who have taken an oath to defend the Constitution. They’re not going to shoot the citizens who are on their side.
    Really, Doug, this is too easy. “it’s time to stop excusing those who let their guns ripped off, or who sell to those who shouldn’t have them, or even allow said persons such usage”. You mean like Obama selling guns to drug lords and trying to cover it up? So what you just spouted off about only applies to the conservatives?
    I have no problem trying to stop anyone from stealing anything from me, Doug. When do I get to shoot fleeing thieves in the back?

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  43. Gregory Avatar

    Sorry, Keach, but if you take out drug/gang violence, especially in areas that have the most onerous gun laws, those numbers go way down. In fact, you’re generally safer in Utah than Canada and Australia, which have about the same murder rates despite being awash in guns, including real honest-to-Zarquon machine guns and virtually no restrictions. Vermont, too, and in Ben and Jerry country, you don’t even need a permit to carry a concealed weapon.
    So, what gun laws do they need, and why aren’t crazies choosing Salt Lake City or Montpelier to shoot up innocents?

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  44. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    I loved Steve Frisch’s comment about the hippies and the pensioners. What he said is pretty much true.
    Thing is, after Kent State, all the hippies I know are armed to the teeth and have huge ammo dumps, just like the rest of the crazies in this tragically broken country.
    But I’ll go back to my main contention. I think all of these idiots are just wasting their money. When push comes to shove they will watch the Niner game instead, and no lead will fly.
    Not only are we are tragically broken country, we are a spoiled and soft country, a bunch of fructose-corn-syrup-laden couch potatoes whose greatest challenge is having too many remote controls.
    I don’t want to deny anyone here their wet dreams of an armed revolution, but that’s all they are: sad little wet dreams from a diminishing Mister Peter whose ability to stand at attention diminishes with each day’s passing (I blame the phthalates/estrogen).

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  45. Russ Steele Avatar

    Some more message manegment
    Taking action is simple, just follow these 3 Steps:
    Step 1: Enter your personal contact information below, this information will be added to the letter and is required to reach each of the appropriate representatives in your area. This information is not stored by Ruger, nor is it used for any other purposes than this legislative action.
    Step 2: Press “Submit” and we will prepare the letter below, in your name to the President, Vice-President, your Senators, Representative, Governor, Lieutenant Governor, State-Level Elected Officials and State Attorney General.
    Step 3: Review your letter one last time, add in your first name and press “Submit”! You have just taken strong action in protecting your rights.

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  46. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Steve Enos, the number is already broken out, no suicides in there and it is actually on the low side, the really numbers are higher, but I wanted a “no arguement” number.
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-7
    Greg, Utah, about 70% of it, is a rather unique culture, with church sponsored socialism or social safety net for the bottom part of the population. Maybe the highly restrictive alcohol policies have some effect?
    “The right to KEEP and bear arms.” Way too many Americans have disobeyed the first part of this, the KEEPING part, and that’s what I aim to rectify. If you told George Washington that you wanted to sell your gun to some nutcase so you could make a quick buck, or that you loaned your arms to crazy aunt Hattie, he’d slap you silly.

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  47. bill tozer Avatar
    bill tozer

    Does this mean the price of guns will go up? Darn inflation and that supply and demand stuff. If they take my guns, guess I will have to dust off the old bazooka. Good for home defense, but leaves a rather nasty mess in the entry.

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  48. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    for Doug at 10:33 – How about if you told George W there would be a left wing Pres that secretly sold guns to drug lords and covered it up? Please give us the stats on law abiding gun owners who ‘loan’ their guns to crazies.
    The thing about Utah that Doug ‘forgot’ to mention is that safety net also requires the folks that receive help to get off their arse and get to work. Might be a good idea here, too. Highly restrictive alcohol policies? Every time I’m around a liquor store in Utah I see shopping carts stacked high with booze going out to the cars. They just learn to stock up and have plenty on hand. You don’t see a lot of bums in Utah sitting around the alleys sipping out of paper bags because: the weather and – the social safety net kinda helps them go to another state, like California.

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  49. Paul Emery Avatar

    Scott 10:33
    “How about if you told George W there would be a left wing Pres that secretly sold guns to drug lords and covered it up?”
    Are you referring top Iran Contra?

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  50. Gregory Avatar

    I remember going out to dinner behind the Zion Curtain… the waitress and the restaurant couldn’t serve booze, but there was a “private club” set up in the corner of the main room where you could buy a drink and take it back to your table. You could also bring your own bottle of anything from home and pour it yourself.
    Drinking in Utah isn’t a problem, and, despite even Freshmen at the University of Utah being able to carry concealed weapons, gun violence isn’t a problem. Don’t expect Keachie to stay on the subject.
    Keach ignored Vermont, and didn’t write a thing to justify saddling either Vermont or Utah with onerous legislation on lawful gun owners. Then there’s New Hampshire, with the lowest murder rate in the US (1.4/100,000) and the lowest murder with guns rate (0.4/100,000). No rifle or handgun registration, legal machine guns, the only difference with utah I can see is that NH’s CCW is a “may issue”, not “shall issue” process.
    So, whose gun laws should prevail on all by Federal law? Vermont, Utah, and New Hampshire’s, or Illinois and California’s? Or should the Feds back off and let the 2nd and 10th Amendments reign?
    Russ, outside of our Congresscritter, none of them care a rat’s ass what you want regarding gun legislation. Demanding a serious investigation into the new Harry Reid bribery allegations might be more useful for the Federal offices… after all, the seriousness of the charges is primary.
    Michael, feel better? A truly classic bullying, mandersonation rant that, intentionally or unintentionally, misses the points of the posters being ridiculed.

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