Cirino’s Nevada City, RIP

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Cirino’s Nevada City, RIP

03 January 2013

George Rebane

The Progressive Plague that has ravaged California for some years, and with every passing day is becoming even more virulent, struck down a local landmark establishment. In Nevada City Cirino’s Bar & Grill is shutting its doors according to owner Jerry Cirino because “The state and federal government has taken the most valuable asset of a business (employees) and made it a liability. They have disrupted, irreparably, the triangular relationship between customer, employee, and employer.” (reported in the 3jan13 Union)

In these pages I have evangelized that important relationship and its financial implications to a business, especially a small business. The target audience for these soap box lectures has been the independent reader who is not yet convinced about the contributions of capitalism and free enterprise to his wellbeing. The pushback on these clarifications has always been from the progressivists who are beyond redemption (aka butt stupid), and now cover the land like locusts destroying every shred of wealth creating commercialism that they can. And in the dust and debris of their plunder they leave unemployed workers who are among the most needy, workers who must now become wards of the state and learn quickly on which side their bread is buttered.

One more tombstone in California’s Business Cemetery. And what again is the alternative to the Great Divide?

Posted in Agenda 21, California, Great Divide, Happenings, Nevada County, The Liberal Mind

97 responses to “Cirino’s Nevada City, RIP”

Joe Koyote

04 January 2013

One should hope those dirty lefties NEVER allow hydro-fracking. The San Joaquin Valley, ie. the bread basket of the world, is the next fracking target. Don’t the greedy fools in the energy business realize they will screw up the water as they have done elsewhere, and destroy the agriculture industry there? I wouldn’t want my tap water to catch on fire. As usual, greed will supplant long term responsible planning.

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Michael Anderson

04 January 2013

Mikey, I don’t know ANYONE who doesn’t think the USA has a spending problem. And I know lots of people, left right and center.
Keach, why are you buying flood insurance? I thought you lived on San Juan Ridge (the operative noun being “ridge”).

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Ryan Mount

04 January 2013

Michael A> “I’d still like to hear Jerry’s specific complaints, as well as his suggestions for which gov’t rules, regulations, and tax policies need to be fixed in particular, and how, as they relate to his business.”
That’s not an unreasonable request. Paul? You’re gonna speak with him tonight.
BTW, the power was out here, so I flipped on KNCO for an update. And I believe I caught the tail end of Mr. Cirino blaming the government for his business decision. Well, I think he said he did blame it, but I sensed equivocation in his language. He said it was a/his business decision AND [NOT because] the government’s policies are screwed up.
I’m guessing he’s aware of the criticism because this is a change in his rhetoric. The thing is, it’s hard to undo the Internet.

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TheMikeyMcD

04 January 2013

Funny MichaelA. I don’t know 1 progressive that openly thinks that a spending problem exists (they all blame the rich for ‘only’ paying 50% of the taxes). And I’ve not seen 1 democratic politician acknowledge the spending crisis. At best you can get a donkey to pontificate (without action) that future deficits should be less, but that says nothing of the $16+Trillion of existing debt.
How many times do we have to increase the debt limit before the politicians figure out that we are suffering from a spending problem? Never. It will take rising interest rates and pain.
Do they have any idea the hell that will be unleashed if interest rates rose (from near zero today) by 1%, 2% or God help us 3%+? Their inaction answer with a resounding “No.”

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Joe Koyote

04 January 2013

We have a huge spending problem, it’s called the military.

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Ryan Mount

04 January 2013

We have a huge spending problem, it’s the other programs that I don’t get benefits out of. It’s always the other guy’s program that’s the problem.
On a brighter note, this whole trillion dollar coin thing might actually happen, so we’ll finally start monetizing the debt properly. I hope they mint 16 trillion worth of platinum coins. The Dumbasses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-72xjctpoaU

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Michael Anderson

04 January 2013

Ryan, that would be only 16 coins. Sure hope Uncle Sam doesn’t have a hole in his pocket…talk about street change!

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Steve Frisch

04 January 2013

Funny McD, you must be ignoring the several times here, and at other sites I know your read, that I have said a spending problem exists, and have made specific suggestions about ways we could cut the budget and reduce our federal deficit.

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Russ Steele

04 January 2013

Joe@12:26
The Oil and Gas Induetry has been using fracking for over 60 years. They were using when I was in college in the 1950s. I worked in the Wyoming Gas and Oil fields laying over several semester to earn my college money. I was a welders helper and pipe layer and engine mechanic. We used to have to wait for the Haiiburton or Schlumberger logging and fracking trucks to leave before intalling the collection pipes to the well head.
New York studied the fracking problem and this was released yesterday saying no danger of proper procedures were used:
The natural gas drilling process known as fracking would not be a danger to public health in New York state so long as proper safeguards were put into place, according to a health department report that environmentalists fear could help lift a moratorium on the controversial technique.
Governor Andrew Cuomo is weighing the economic benefits of hydraulic fracturing – commonly known as fracking – against the environmental risks from a technology that could unlock a vast domestic energy supply but also one that environmentalists say pollutes groundwater and the air.
Potential hazards could be avoided by implementing precautions the state has identified, according to a February 2012 preliminary assessment from the New York State Department of Health that became widely reported in the media on Thursday.
“Significant adverse impacts on human health are not expected from routine HVHF,” or high volume hydraulic fracturing, the document concluded.

The EPA gave their best shot to claim Wyoming fracking was contaminating ground water. But, they failed. The part of the investigation I like was when the EPA lab found fracking chemical in the pure water base line samples. Here is an analysis of the EPA fracking findings:
Six Questions on Pavillion from Energy In Depth

1) Why the huge difference between what EPA found in its monitoring wells and what was detected in private wells from which people actually get their water?
▪ Contrary to what was reported yesterday, the compounds of greatest concern detected by EPA in Pavillion weren’t found in water wells that actually supply residents their water – they were detected by two “monitoring wells” drilled by EPA outside of town.
▪ After several rounds of EPA testing of domestic drinking water wells in town, only one organic compound (bis (2-ethylhexyl) phthalate) was found to exceed state or federal drinking water standards – an additive in plastics and one of the most commonly detected organic compounds in water. According to EPA: “Detections in drinking water wells are generally below established health and safety standards.”
▪ Bruce Hinchey, president of Petroleum Association of Wyoming: “Let me be clear, the EPA’s findings indicate that there is no connection between oil and natural gas operations and impacts to domestic water wells.” (PAW press release, Dec. 8, 2011)
▪ In contrast, EPA found “a wide variety of organic chemicals” in its two monitoring wells, with greater concentrations found in the deeper of the two. The only problem? EPA drilled its monitoring wells into a hydrocarbon-bearing formation. Think it’s possible that could explain the presence of hydrocarbons?
▪ According to governor of Wyoming: “The study released today from EPA was based on data from two test wells drilled in 2010 and tested once that year and once in April, 2011. Those test wells are deeper than drinking wells. The data from the test wells was not available to the rest of the working group until a month ago.” (Gov. Mead press release, issued Dec. 8, 2011)
2) After reviewing the data collected by Region 8, why did EPA administrator Lisa Jackson tell a reporter that, specific to Pavillion, “we have absolutely no indication now that drinking water is at risk”? (video available here)
▪ Of note, Administrator Jackson offered those comments to a reporter from energyNOW! a full week after Region 8 publicly released its final batch of Pavillion data. In that interview, Jackson indicates that she personally analyzed the findings of the report, and was personally involved in conversations and consultations with staff, local officials, environmental groups, the state and the operator.
▪ After reviewing all that information, and conducting all those interviews, if the administrator believed that test results from EPA’s monitoring wells posed a danger to the community, why would she say the opposite of that on television?
▪ And if she believed that the state of Wyoming had failed to do its job, why would she – in that same interview – tell energyNOW! that “you can’t start to talk about a federal role [in regulating fracturing] without acknowledging the very strong state role.” (2:46) A week later, why did she choose to double-down on those comments in an interview with Rachel Maddow, telling the cable host that “states are stepping up and doing a good job”? (9:01, aired Nov. 21, 2011)
3) Did all those chemicals that EPA used to drill its monitoring wells affect the results?
▪ Diethanolamine? Anionic polyacrylamide? Trydymite? Bentonite? Contrary to conventional wisdom, chemicals are needed to drill wells, not just fracture them – even when the purpose of those wells has nothing to do with oil or natural gas development.
▪ In this case, however, EPA’s decision to use “dense soda ash” as part of the process for drilling its monitoring wells could have proved a bad one.
▪ One of the main justifications EPA uses to implicate hydraulic fracturing as a source of potential contamination is the high pH readings it says it found in its monitoring wells. But dense soda ash has a recorded pH (11.5) very similar to the level found in the deep wells, creating the possibility that the high pH recorded by EPA could have been caused by the very chemicals it used to drill its own wells.
▪ According to Tom Doll, supervisor of the Wyoming Oil and Gas Conservation Commission: “More sampling is needed to rule out surface contamination or the process of building these test wells as the source of the concerning results.” (as quoted in governor’s press release, Dec. 8, 2011)
4) Why is the author so confident that fracturing is to blame when most of his actual report focuses on potential issues with casing, cement and legacy pits?
▪ The report singles-out old legacy pits (which the operator had already voluntarily placed in a state remediation program prior to EPA’s investigation) as the most obvious source of potential contamination. These decades-old pits, which are obviously no longer used, have nothing to do with hydraulic fracturing.
▪ From the report (page xi): “Detection of high concentrations of benzene, xylenes, gasoline range organics, diesel range organics, and total purgeable hydrocarbons in ground water samples from shallow monitoring wells near pits indicates that pits are a source of shallow ground water contamination in the area of investigation. Pits were used for disposal of drilling cuttings, flowback, and produced water. There are at least 33 pits in the area of investigation.“
▪ From the report’s concluding paragraph: “[T]his investigation supports recommendations made by the U.S. Department of Energy Panel on … greater emphasis on well construction and integrity requirements and testing. As stated by the panel, implementation of these recommendations would decrease the likelihood of impact to ground water and increase public confidence in the technology.” (p. 39)
5) 2-BE or not 2-BE? That is the question.
▪ EPA indicates that it found tris (2-butoxyethyl) phosphate in a few domestic water wells. What the agency doesn’t mention is that this chemical is a common fire retardant found in plastics and plastic components used in drinking water wells. It’s not 2-BE, which, although also a common material, is sometimes associated with the completions process.
▪ According to EPA, in one of the eight samples collected, a small amount of 2-BE was detected. Interestingly, two other EPA labs that measured for the same exact compound reported not being able to detect it in the duplicate samples they were given.
▪ According to Wyo. governor Mead: “Members of the [Pavillion] working group also have questions about the compound 2-BE, which was found in 1 sample … while other labs tested the exact same water sample and did not find it.” (Mead press release, Dec. 8, 2011)
6) Is EPA getting enough potassium?
▪ Several times in its report, EPA notes that potassium and chloride levels were found to be elevated in its monitoring wells. But just because you have potassium and chloride doesn’t mean you’ve got potassium chloride, a different chemical entirely and one that’s sometimes associated with fracturing solutions. Nowhere in its report does EPA suggest that potassium chloride was detected.
▪ According to several USGS studies of groundwater quality in the area, variable — and in some cases, high — concentrations of potassium and chloride have been detected in Pavillion-area groundwater for more than 20 years. (USGS 1991, 1992)
▪ Interestingly, the potassium levels detected in EPA’s first monitoring well declined by more than 50 percent from October 2010 to April 2011, while the potassium level in EPA’s second monitoring well increased during that same period. Only natural variations in groundwater flow and/or composition could have accounted for this disparity.

As for the fire in the water faucet:
It tunrs out that the fire from the faucet in the Gasland movie was naturally occuring methane and had nothing to do with fracking. The whole movie has been discredited by factual investigations.
Put down your lefty talking points and use your Internet!

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Douglas Keachie

04 January 2013

MA, invested in Marysville fixer, up here I can dock Noah’s Ark in a pinch. We don’t have a “spending” problem. We have a “what to do with all these excess American citizens and union busting illegal immigrants problem, now that we’ve drained very penny of worth of value out of them.” The rich would probably find it cheaper to make payoffs to foreign countries to take in the excess, and would, if they only could.

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Russ Steele

04 January 2013

Joe@01:00
Joe you are wrong again! Spending on non-defense programs has grown 29 percent. … Entitlement spending more than doubled over the past 20 years, growing by 110 percent. There are some nice graphic at the URL below, if you are just a visual learner.
http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/12/just-a-reminder-entitlements-not-defense-are-bankrupting-america/
Did you note the defense spending is going down and non-defense spending is growing? Put down your liberal talking points and do a little research.

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Ryan Mount

04 January 2013

Michael>”Ryan, that would be only 16 coins”
I want to preface what I have to say that the truth is stranger than fiction.
Michael, they’re literally talking about minting Platinum Trillion (with a T) dollar coins (1 Trillion each) to cut the Republicans off at the debt ceiling pass. My suggestion is that they go all the way monetize the entire 16 Trillion.
The way the monetizers think is that that can sop up all of the inflation and liquidity later on via bonds. This somewhat absurd solution of minting a couple of Trillion Dollar coins is actually being taken seriously. My suggested, as noted on facebook, would be to put Dr. Oz or Snooki’s faces on the coin to insure higher value.
I thought it was some kind of theOnion.com parody, but as it turns out, Congress actually passed a law back in the 1990s which authorized this odd printing. And now some law makers are considering it as a hedge against the House Republicans.

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Joe Koyote

04 January 2013

So what Russ? Who cares what percentages are what, up down or sideways. We spend more on the military than most of the rest of the developed world combined, for what?

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Ryan Mount

04 January 2013

Joe> “for what?”
Here’s what George would say. (I’ve asked him this on a few occasions, so Mr. Rebane, pardon my presumptuous and my poor paraphrasing):

To keep our lifestyle and liberties in secure. It’s a deliberate hegemony whereby we keep the peace and become the world’s police force. Having Carrier Battle Groups and a strong nuclear arsenal is a strong deterrent, foreign policy hawks tell us, to would be foreign dick-heads.

I’m guessing we’re done talking about whether Mr. Cirino really meant what he’s been telling us. I hope Paul asks some tough questions tonight. We’ll see.

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Douglas Keachie

04 January 2013

The modern process of fracking did not come into practice until 1998. Steele’s teenhood experiences are not an indication of the safety of the processes, as not enough time has elapsed for good studies of what the modern techniques can do. One issue that concerns me is the focus on the liquids shot underground, and the statements that they cannot penetrate the layers above. They may not be able to penetrate said layers, but gases they may create underground stand a much better chance of percolating through the layers above, and creating nasty compounds in the aquifiers. This issue is unaddressed anywhere that I know of.

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Michael Anderson

04 January 2013

Ryan, I would like to see Kim Kardashian’s rear end on the new trillion dollar platinum coin. Of course, that would require a surface area the size of the East Main St. roundabout, so perhaps this idea is not practical.

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TheMikeyMcD

04 January 2013

Regarding the spending crisis. BREAKING: CBO Admits Error, Now Expects ADDITIONAL $600 Billion In Deficits From Obama Tax Cuts! LOL.
http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43835
“…widening of the budget deficit will increase interest payments on the federal debt, an impact that is not included in CBO’s cost estimates. The additional debt service will cost about $600 billion. “

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TheMikeyMcD

04 January 2013

I thought Mount would appreciate:
A Modest Proposal To Boost US GDP By $852 Quadrillion: Build The Imperial Death Star
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/modest-proposal-boost-us-gdp-852-quadrillion-build-imperial-death-star

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Russ Steele

04 January 2013

Douglas
You wrote “The modern process of fracking did not come into practice until 1998” It was the modern practice of horizontal drilling that was developed in the late 1990s not the fracking process. Fracking has been around for a long time.

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Douglas Keachie

04 January 2013

Drilling straigh down and lubing may be one thing. Drilling sideways may have far greater potential for damages, and we do not know what we are messing with, as usual. And doing it wholesale under the prime growing region of California and the USA? How stupid and greedy can people get?

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Douglas Keachie

04 January 2013

Any group that pays to be exempted from the Clean Water Act of 2005 obviously has something to hide from scientific investigations done by independent parties:
“Except for diesel-based additive fracturing fluids, noted by the American Environmental Protection Agency to have a higher proportion of volatile organic compounds and carcinogenic BTEX, use of fracturing fluids in hydraulic fracturing operations was explicitly excluded from regulation under the American Clean Water Act in 2005, a legislative move that has since attracted controversy for being the product of special interests lobbying.”

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Paul Emery

04 January 2013

If you miss tonight’s KVMR newscast you can hear a podcast of my interview with Jerry Cirino here.
http://audio.kvmr.org/podhawk/index.php?id=1709
It’s about 15 minutes long.

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George Rebane

04 January 2013

PaulE 611pm – good interview. I’m not sure what more we found out except his putting a human face/voice on the issue.

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Ben Emery

04 January 2013

Paul,
My wife and I listened to the last couple nights and were floored at how bogus the reasoning for closing Cirino’s was put out for public consumption by Jerry. I don’t know Jerry but have been a consistent patron to the Nevada City location for years. My wife has a degree in Hotel and Restaurant Management from UMass and owned a restaurant for a dozen years. I helped operate/ managed it and became working business partner for the last few years. We had up to 18 employees during the busy seasons.
Here (Paraphrasing) is what Jerry told me at Victorian Christmas when I bought a Bloody Mary Mix from him. I was trying to retire last year from the business and my wife put together this bloody mary mix gig and it has taken off. Last night he said he was making money in the business in Nevada City but was closing the restaurant down. If he was making money then the business was viable. I know he claimed he studied future legislation and it was going to be to hard but once again it is bogus to blame employees. I have managed a number of restaurants in my life and employees are going to be very difficult no matter how good the core group is and that is part of doing business. What my paraphrase was alluding to was it sounded like Jerry took his wanting to retire for an opportunity to push a political ideology or political agenda. My guess is he truly talked himself into what he claimed but from being a person who worked in restaurants or food industry for many many years his claims seem to be a bit overblown and ideologically based.
His reasoning for closing the business could have been lifted straight from the CABPRO or any hard right website.

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Douglas Keachie

04 January 2013

Excellent audio quality, first tme I’ve tried a podcast.

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Russ Steele

04 January 2013

Ben@06:49PM
Ben, I did not get the impression that Jerry was blaming the employees, he was pointing to the regulations and the other crap that was being levied by the state on his business, relative to having employees.
If you and the wife are sure this will continue to be viable business location in the future, check with Jerry and he may be willing to lease you and your wife the whole shebang. Let’s see how you can make it work and prove Jerry wrong.
I found it interesting that GV was growing and NC seem to be declining due to the business environment in the city. Jerry seems to think that the future was in GV.

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Ben Emery

04 January 2013

Russ,
Jerry’s conclusion of his researching the next few years of legislation and its implementation was saying having employees is too much work. I didn’t realize Obamacare and the unmentioned federal/ state laws didn’t apply in Grass Valley? The housing crisis has nothing to do with a 1% tax on the lumber/ timber industry. It has to do with the thieves that call themselves bankers being predators on the public without any real accountability by the public because our tool of accountability is owned by the banks. Only a few banks have more assets than half of the GDP of the US, $7.5 trillion. The same banks hold over 50% of mortgages and 66% of credit cards. Again what he said at the Victorian Christmas was he was either retired or trying to retire. That tells me Jerry wasn’t going to continue running the restaurant(s) no matter what was happening in the next few years and this statement was more a political statement than an explanation of why the Cirino’s restaurant was closing.
My wife and I were thinking about a creamery a few years back but decided against it. We were both self employed and doing well so we decided against it.

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earlcrabb

04 January 2013

Me too. I’m self-employed. Having employees is too much hassle. That’s what I hear from those who do.

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Brad Croul

05 January 2013

While listening to Jerry Cirino’s anti-government rant, a couple of things came out that sounded like bonafide reasons for closing. Mr. Cirino said that the Grass Valley restaurant is a higher volume, larger capacity restaurant and growing at 12% a year. Also, he prefers what he described as a better business climate in GV that it is more conducive to his long term business plans. The bottom line for him was not government regulation, but the fact that the Nevada City location did not have the volume, and if he continued to stay open, he would deplete his savings account as the income would not keep up with the overhead associated with that older restaurant.
I don’t know why Mr. Cirino did not feel he could have just said, “Because this restaurant is not making enough money to support itself, we are going to have to close this location”.
Not sure what the lumber tax and transfat legislation has to do with Cirino’s closing.
The lumber tax is not that big a deal according to builders,
But California home builders don’t share the retailers’ concerns about the small hike in lumber prices.
“Mike Winn, president of the California Building Industry Assn., predicted that the tax will add only about $115 to the cost of a typical 2,000-square-foot new home. His 3,200-member organization did not oppose the governor’s legislation.
The new measure, to take effect Jan. 1, shifts the cost of forest land regulation from timber companies to consumers. Supporters, including the California Forestry Assn., said it broadens financial support for the program and allows California forest products companies to better compete with out-of-state timber firms.
The bill also includes a controversial provision that put legal limits on the ability of government agencies to sue landowners, timber operators and others whose negligence might have caused forest fires.
“This legislation enacts serious bipartisan reform to even the playing field to protect California’s timber industry jobs,” Brown said in a Sept. 11 signing statement.”
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/05/business/la-fi-state-lumber-tax-20121205
Also, plenty of cakes had been baked before transfats were developed, and Crisco has not contained transfats since 1997.

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Russ Steele

05 January 2013

USA Today: Health care law may mean less hiring in 2013.
Many businesses plan to bring on more part-time workers next year, trim the hours of full-time employees or curtail hiring because of the new health care law, human resource firms say.
Their actions could further dampen job growth, which already is threatened by possible federal budget cutbacks resulting from the tax increases and spending cuts known as the fiscal cliff.
“It will have a negative impact on job creation” in 2013, says Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody’s Analytics.
Under the Affordable Care Act, businesses that employ at least 50 full-time workers — or the equivalent, including part-time workers — must offer health insurance to staffers who work at least 30 hours a week. Employers that don’t provide coverage must pay a $2,000-per-worker penalty, excluding the first 30 employees.
The so-called employer mandate to offer health coverage doesn’t take effect until Jan. 1, 2014. But to determine whether employees work enough hours on average to receive benefits, employers must track their schedules for three to 12 months prior to 2014 — meaning many are restructuring payrolls now or will do so early next year.

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Steve Frisch

05 January 2013

Think of all the employment that bringing 59.1 million uninsured Americans into the system will create. It is Schumpeter’s gale my friends.

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George Rebane

05 January 2013

Good input Russ (315pm); here’s more stuff from Cato on Obamacare’s impact on small businesses.
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/obamacare-burden-small-business
And knowing that none of this will impact our progressive friends who are convinced that Jerry Cirino was just bullshitting us, here is more on the recalcitrance of the Left in seeing problems with Obamacare, and why its critics have no reason to give up.
http://www.cato.org/blog/why-obamacares-critics-refuse-give

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George Rebane

05 January 2013

SteveF 425pm – unfortunately none of that kind of work will contribute to creating wealth, but only increase the rate at which our national debt grows (see the unsustainable EU nationalized healthcare costs). If it did create wealth, then we will have discovered the economic equivalent of perpetual motion. (See also Bastiat’s broken window homily.) But this kind of nostrums are the progressives’ siren song – they will not be dissuaded from pushing the nation into such wonderful stratagems, and then require more government, taxing, and spending when it hits the mud. Seat belts and helmets are advised for passengers on this train to glory.

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Paul Emery

05 January 2013

So George, is there wealth created when people go bankrupt paying medical bills? Is wealth created when peopls are prevented from going into private business because they can’t buy at any reasonable price health insurance that covers preexisting conditions? Is wealth created when easily treatable medical problems are neglected and become more serious because people cannot afford to go to the doctor? Is wealth created when preventable medicine is unavailable in situations like my friend who had to have two heart attacks and the second was preventable but not possible because it was not the direct cause of his emergency, Is wealth created when we take Romney’s advise and use the emergency room as our family doctor?

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George Rebane

05 January 2013

PaulE 825pm – That’s a whole platoon of straw men you’ve set marching. What’s your intention for them? You sound once more as if Obamacare was the only possible response to our healthcare problems. And it’s not possible that Obamacare has made the situation worse.

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Paul Emery

05 January 2013

George
My “straw men marching” as you put it is a snapshot of our current health care “system.” I am just inquiring as to whether that system is , in your mind, wealth creating.

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George Rebane

05 January 2013

PaulE 905pm – We are told that it makes up over 16% of our GDP. Does all of it come from private sector; absolutely not (think of Medicare, Medicaid, prescription subsidies, etc). And Obamacare will make that worse. But you tend to mix economics with people ‘dying in the street’. No one has yet to come up with a sustainable program to prevent all indigent deaths that require transfer payments. Have we circled this barn before?

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Douglas Keachie

06 January 2013

I’ll support the businesses that are run well enough to attract the best employees who will seek out full time work with health care that is adequate. Let the businesses die that can’t compete, and let them be replaced by those with better thought out business plans.
Turnabout’s fair play, no?
You’d fire the employee that couldn’t solve the problem, right?

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Steve Frisch

06 January 2013

Doug, I think you kind of hit the nail on the head. I don’t know Jerry Cirino, or his business, but government regulation that he has to deal with is no different than government regulation that any other restaurant owner has to deal with. The entire rational rings hollow to me. This is creative destruction pure and simple. It is the sort of capitalism George and Russ usually applaud.

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George Rebane

06 January 2013

DouglasK 1203am – That’s the spirit Doug; that’ll learn ’em durn ’em. No one should have a right to work at a job that doesn’t provide adequate healthcare, let ’em draw unemployment instead.

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TheMikeyMcD

06 January 2013

Only the liberal mind can believe that more regulations are good for business
Only the liberal mind can believe that more taxes are good for business
Only the liberal mind can discount the countless business owners (myself included) that openly cite regulations/taxes as impediments to job creation, wealth and society improving production.
Only the liberal mind can feel like only more laws can save a tiny minority of possible health care related BK’s by making everyone weaker and closer to BK.
Only the liberal mind can ignore the fact that ‘Crony capitalism’ requires regulations/taxes(read big government) to exist/thrive.
The equation for health and prosperity is simple but it requires the individual to hold power over the mob. Free the markets and you will free the people.

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TheMikeyMcD

06 January 2013

Anyone following The Free State Project (NH)?
http://freestateproject.org/
From democratic (liberal)state Rep. Cynthia Chase, D-Keene
Free Staters Unwelcome Here
In the opinion of this Democrat, Free Staters are the single biggest threat the state is facing today. There is, legally, nothing we can do to prevent them from moving here to take over the state… What we can do is to make the environment here so unwelcoming that some will choose not to come, and some may actually leave. One way is to pass measures that will restrict the “freedoms” that they think they will find here.”

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Russ Steele

06 January 2013

Mikey@08:43AM
I just finished reading KinderGarden Of Eden: How the Modern Liberal Thinks by Evan Sayet and you are spot on. The mindless foot soldiers of the left keep marching on unable to accept the facts, while they continue to twist reality to fit their view of the universe.
At some point there will have to be a reality check, but I am not expecting it during my life time.

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Steve Frisch

06 January 2013

I am all for you guys tuning out, turning off and dropping out. Although I suspect Oklahoma is a more likely destination that New Hampshire!

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Douglas Keachie

06 January 2013

We tried unbridled capitalism back in the 1880’s. It didn’t work so well, except for Carnegie, Rockefeller, and Vanderbilt, and a couple of guys playing with choo-choos and the California legislature. Wasn’t that a time?!?

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Ben Emery

06 January 2013

Here are some facts that are very well researched from actual physicians and health care workers about implementing a single payer program. A federal program would have done the same thing the California SB 810 would have done, reduced the cost of the government of overall spending on health care. Hopefully Senator Leno reintroduces the bill this session and the Democrats don’t sabotage it like last time. We know all Republicans won’t vote against profits for private industry because the party has become almost exclusively corporatist.
Facts about National Health Insurance (NHI) You Might Not Know
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer_myths_singlepayer_facts.php
The health care delivery system remains private. As opposed to a national health service, where the government employs doctors, in a national health insurance system, the government is billed, but doctors remain in private
practice.
A national health insurance program could save approximately $150 billion on paperwork alone. Because of the administrative complexities in our current system, over 25% of every health care dollar goes to marketing, billing,
utilization review, and other forms of waste. A single-payer system could reduce administrative costs greatly.
Most businesses would save money. Because a single-payer system is more efficient than our current system, health care costs are less, and therefore, businesses save money. In Canada, the three major auto manufacturers (Ford, GM, and Daimler-Chrysler) have all publicly endorsed Canada’s single-payer health system from a business and financial standpoint. In the United States, Ford pays more for its workers health insurance than it does for the steel to make its cars.
Under NHI, your insurance doesn’t depend on your job. Whether you’re a student, professor, or working part-time raising children, you’re provided with care. Not only does this lead to a healthier population, but it’s also beneficial from an economic standpoint: workers are less-tied to their
employers, and those that dislike their current positions can find new work
(where they would be happier and most likely more productive and efficient).
Myths about National Health Insurance (NHI)
The government would dictate how physicians practice medicine.
In countries with a national health insurance system, physicians are rarely questioned about their medical practices (and usually only in cases of expected fraud). Compare it to today’s system, where doctors routinely have to ask an insurance company permission to perform procedures, prescribe certain medications, or run certain tests to help their patients.

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George Rebane

06 January 2013

BenE 148pm – how can we get some of this good information into the hands of the EU governments, our own CBO, the thousands of healthcare workers who are planning early retirements/exits from the industry, and the uncountable young people who are saying that they will take a pass on going into healthcare (save becoming a govt employee enforcing Obamacare)?
Oh, and we shouldn’t forget to inform the non-Keynesian economists and institutions like Cato about the myths they have been promulgating.

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