Rebane's Ruminations
December 2012
S M T W T F S
 1
2345678
9101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
3031  

ARCHIVES


OUR LINKS


YubaNet
White House Blog
Watts Up With That?
The Union
Sierra Thread
RL “Bob” Crabb
Barry Pruett Blog

George Rebane

VoteThe comment stream under ‘How to Protect School Children in Schools’  is another long one which inevitably becomes a bit hairy by developing threads that start covering the waterfront of issues of interest in these times.  Voter qualification was a thread that, to the best of my knowledge, appeared through some process of immaculate conception.  While entirely appropriate to the season, that thread diverts quite a bit from the posted topic and deserves its own venue for discussion.  This is it.

My long held position has been that more than being able to fog a mirror should be required of a US citizen before he is allowed to vote; even more than gaining a majority of 18 years, or not having been convicted of a felony, or not being institutionalized as a mental incompetent.  In short, there should be some intellectual and/or cognitive skills that the citizen should demonstrate that may even alleviate the majority and/or mental incompetency requirements.  But what would these skills be and how would they be measured and certified?

Our Founders recognized similar requirements and left it to the states to set the specifics.  Many required the demonstration of substance through ownership of land, or commercial interest, or wealth.  Various levels of these were judged to be a sufficient proxy for some minimum level of intellectual and cognitive skills.  Later, and mostly under Jim Crow laws, specific tests were imposed that required literacy (gasp!) and a basic knowledge of US civics.  These were struck down under various civil rights rulings.

So now we have a nation of voters who are 40% functionally illiterate, almost totally innumerate and innocent of science, and possess no essential knowledge base of how their governments at any level are constituted and work.  These people are supported by certain of our political minions as long as they can be reliably convinced to vote for bigger government, concentration of federal power, and more transfer payments paid for by higher taxes from the producing class.  And their proportion, as demonstrated by the last election, is such that we are now way past the tipping point at which democracy begins to devour itself.

So, before I taint the discussion with my own prejudices on voter qualifications, can you dear readers present any reasonable basis for change, if any, and if so, what kind?

[29dec12 update]  This post’s comment stream is now mature enough to detect some trends in how the title question is being answered.  First, what some of the progressive readers have confused are the orthogonal notions of 1) what improvements could/should be made to the voting franchise that is granted to some citizens, and 2) what is the likelihood that any given set of changes to voter qualifications would actually be adopted.


True to much noted form in these pages (see under ‘The Liberal Mind’), progressives get a little more than irked at the discussion of improvements or changes.  In fact, a few commenters actually feel that the discussion here may even be subversive in some sense, or at the least, encouraging an autocracy that is dominated by a small intellectual elite.  An open discussion of ‘Who Should (not) Vote’ presumes none of these objectives, save, perhaps, in the minds of people who always know what the other person is ‘really thinking’, and wants to respond only to such hidden (forbidden?) thoughts that their clairvoiance reveals.

In any event, as introduced above and reinforced in these comments, we already do proscribe certain citizens from voting on the basis of residence, continued punishment (ex-felons), and presumed mental capacity to render an informed decision.  The last requirement clearly incites the most interest, as it should.  Our Founders thought, debated, and wrote quite a lot about mental capacity (to understand and know the issues) and the notion of fairness or justice.

Regarding fairness, most people understand that democracies can and do destroy themselves – our Founders most certainly knew that.  Since governments must tax to survive, some  people thought and still do think that the vote should be restricted to those who actually pay taxes.  As government became more rapacious in reaching into our wallets, the taxpayer voter argument has become somewhat moot, since everyone who has any commercial or private dealings involving assets is now taxed – i.e. everyone can be said to pay some taxes somewhere.

Skipping over the perennial punishment levied on ex-felons, that leaves mental capacity as the attribute to be considered.  We already presume, somewhat arbitrarily, that such capacity is sufficiently absent in citizens under 18.  And people institutionalized under various judgments are also proscribed.  So mental capacity to render an informed decision has already been on the table for quite some time.  We here seek to discover refinements that may increase the likelihood that the Republic will survive in any form that resembles our world celebrated legacy.

Certain lockstep leftwingers feel strongly that this entire discussion is out of bounds, and should be left to the sharp wits who gather in the various branches of the federal government – SCOTUS seems to be a favorite.  But I am of those who believe that it is we the citizens who should launch such re-examinations and keep them going to the profit of all.

It is actually Congress and the state legislatures that have the power to say who votes and who doesn’t.  As of late Congress has begun behaving more or less reprehensively, and shirked and/or reassigned its duties to the Executive and Judicial (SCOTUS) branches.  In the January 2013 issue of Chronicles, William Watkins Jr has written ‘Making More of the House’, a fine essay on the subject of representative government as reflected by our Congress, that should be considered in this discussion.  (Unfortunately I can’t find a link to the damn thing, please help.)

Posted in , ,

137 responses to “Who should (not) vote? (updated 29dec12)”

  1. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    Our current condition is a byproduct of our society’s values/morality (or lack thereof).
    “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams
    This fact gives solace to us on the moral high ground, despite losses at the polls. If winning requires an ideology based in hate then I don’t want to win (I take pride in losing).

    Like

  2. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Let’s see, Mikey, it is impossible to find examples of hatred towards Obama in the last election and on into today, on the part of registered voters self identified as members of the Republican party? The exhaust manifold of your Duesenberg must be connected to some pretty heady stuff, the Ridge’s finest, to come to that conclusion, as you commit political suicide.

    Like

  3. George Rebane Avatar

    The 29dec12 update has been appended.

    Like

  4. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    George wrote: “[Progressives believe that deciding who can vote] should be left to the sharp wits who gather in the various branches of the federal government – SCOTUS seems to be a favorite…But I am of those who believe that it is we the citizens who should launch such re-examinations and keep them going to the profit of all…It is actually Congress and the state legislatures that have the power to say who votes and who doesn’t.”
    And after the people and the legislature have spoken, SCOTUS has the final word.
    The real debate should be regarding whether voting is a state right or a federal right. We have legislatures in places like Florida coming up with voting procedures that can only be explained by them having deliberated while on LSD, for example.

    Like

  5. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 125pm – please give us a link to the Florida procedures that pique your ire.
    And in a free land, there is never an “after” for people, legislatures, and SCOTUS “speaking”; such speaking goes on forever. In the meanwhile we must abide by the existing laws as we see how they work and continue seeking to improve them. That may be another deep division in between conservative and progressive ideologies. We conservetarians are a feisty lot, and never sign up for either statism, and most certainly not for stasis.

    Like

  6. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    GR 147pm – “…such speaking goes on forever.”
    No argument there, George. Just so long as we have the order correct in the process.
    A quick Google search turned up oodles of examples of how the partisan voting rules in Florida are a disgrace. Here are just a handful.
    “Democratic Palm Beach County Elections Supervisor Susan Bucher…” http://www.policymic.com/articles/19206/florida-election-results-2012-allen-west-decries-voter-fraud-in-florida-and-he-is-right
    Eight hours to cast a ballot? The election officials should have to spend some time in jail if that’s what it takes: http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/political/election-2012-results-delayed-florida-voters-frustrated-calls-for-change-to-election-laws
    Sheesh! http://thevotingnews.com/dems-to-justice-department-probe-florida-election-law-palm-beach-post/
    http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-08-23/opinions/35492106_1_purge-voter-rolls-league-of-women-voters-ken-detzner
    http://www.theledger.com/article/20121227/EDIT01/121229480/1112/COLUMNISTS0302?Title=Florida-Election-Reform-Ballot-Polls-Duration
    Looks like I was being kind in trying to assign blame to massive LSD abuse. It looks a lot more like corruption and criminal behavior that needs a painful rectal probe from the US Justice Department. Maybe the next election in Florida should be held courtesy of the National Guard. Nothing like uniformed men standing around with M16s to get the attention of a bunch of “elected” thugs and criminals.

    Like

  7. Russ Steele Avatar

    Speaking of voting, how should the Republicans Vote on any compromised to keep us from going off the fiscal cliff?
    I have a suggestion they might want to follow. Do nothing! Vote Present and sit on there hands. There are going to be tax increases regardless of what they do. Let the Democrats suddenly come to the realization they are the sole proprietors of the 2013 economic bomb and start fighting among themselves. The Republican’s need to just focus on 2014, developing a stronger majority in the House, removing the limp Boehner leadership and replacing him with a strong conservative. Then retake the Senate, putting Harry Reid our to pasture on the back 40.
    Once the Republican’s control of the Senate, it will be possible to reign in the Obama executive orders and we can return to econmic sanity.

    Like

  8. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Russ,
    It is highly unlikely that Boehner is going anywhere. The votes just aren’t there to get rid of him. The Republicans are kinda stuck at the moment, which is sad to see.
    There is no doubt we’re going off the “fiscal cliff” (more like the fiscal speed bump). The first week of January or so, tax cuts (going back to the Bush cuts) for everyone under either $400K or $250K (my bet is on $400K) will pass in the House, then the Senate. Mixed into that will be continuing unemployment benefits and other minor gimmes.
    After that, real negotiations will begin regarding spending cuts, entitlement and tax reform, and immigration reform. But adult behavior in this arena is severely in danger if the idiotic gridlock continues.
    The real “cliff” is the debt ceiling limit. It needs to be raised. Not raising the debt limit is like deciding not to pay your monthly minimum credit card payment because you’re pissed off at yourself for charging too much. Anyone who supports this is insane as far as I’m concerned. As in 5150 material.
    The Republicans use it as leverage because that’s all they have. It’s wreckless, it’s childish, and it should be illegal. Not raising the debt ceiling will have a really negative effect on my home and business, and I will fight it tooth and nail.
    Michael A.

    Like

  9. Gregory Avatar

    Sorry manderson, but Congress has the power to limit the debt, and I salute them for bringing out the big guns and not bowing to one of Obama’s early demands that they push the next debt ceiling debate out a year or two. A demand he knew would be refused, not a serious position.
    It isn’t the only thing they have; the Speaker remains the gatekeeper for taxes and budgets, but the childish and reckless abandonment (your “wreckless” means no wrecks) of Congressional oversight would be to cede the power to the Executive branch, which is what Dems want.
    Personally, I suspect Dems will come out smelling better in January but it will be a Pyhrric victory in the short term only.

    Like

  10. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    GG, thanks for the editing services–please send me an invoice.
    Ruining the good faith and credit of the USA is irresponsible. It’s “drown the baby” behavior. Does it border on treason?
    Our debt is no worse than it was during WWII. We survived that…what is different now? Are we a lesser country? Hardly.
    Greg, I agree with you that the Democratic victory in January will be Pyrrhic [I guess our editing service invoices will cancel each other out here], which is why the main discussion in Washington D.C. is within the Democratic Party: how far will they go to destroy the Republican Party?
    The first strategy is to hobble them, but let them back on the playing field severely diminished. The other strategy is to attempt to destroy them completely, turn them into a rump party, let them Whig themselves to death. After which another, more reasonable (and libertarian), party emerges to pick up where the other one left off.
    I happen to favor the first strategy, but see the efficacy in the second if it becomes necessary.

    Like

  11. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Dear Republicans,
    You’ve boxed yourselves into an extremely deleterious corner. You have no escape. You need to negotiate your way out of your self-created mess, and all of your options are unpleasant.
    You realistically have only two choices: come out of the negotiation extremely hobbled, or be utterly destroyed.
    If I were in your shoes, I would choose RUMP with a delicious libertarian twist. Let the Teas be Teas, and see if they can overcome their hidden predilection for Moral Majority nonsense, to join a party that doesn’t believe in legislating personal behavior.
    Exciting times, these. It amazes me that the super lame Democratic Party is on the top of the heap right now. How horrible is that?
    Michael A.

    Like

  12. George Rebane Avatar

    Re MichaelA 810pm – “Our debt is no worse than it was during WWII. We survived that…what is different now? Are we a lesser country? Hardly.”
    In 1945 we emerged as the only industrial country that survived the war undamaged and practiced in new ways of industry that no one thought possible before the war. The world that needed to be rebuilt was our customer for retooled commercial goods and even more armaments as our friends rearmed for the Cold War.
    Today our debt exceeds our GDP, and our unfunded and unmentioned liabilities are north of $100T. Since the Great Doubling our workforce competes with 3 billion workers worldwide, workers who are hungry, more educated, and to gain their place in the sun, willing to work for less than our pampered workers. And today we have competition from several quarters in not only commerce, but also in matters of hegemony. And there are even more differences.
    So today are we a lesser country when compared to our competition? The answer is an emphatic YES. And saddest of all, today we are doing everything possible to ourselves to cripple our under-educated workforce, our military, and the nation’s economy. Even a light reading of history (not the crap taught in our public schools) will confirm that now we are not the country that emerged victorious from WW2.

    Like

  13. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    My replies below:
    “The world that needed to be rebuilt was our customer for retooled commercial goods and even more armaments as our friends rearmed for the Cold War.”
    And so we continue to arm the world, one of our most prodigious industries up to this day. Our predominance here is not going away any time soon.
    “Today our debt exceeds our GDP, and our unfunded and unmentioned liabilities are north of $100T.”
    Our debt is 16 trillion +, which is just a bit over our annual gross GDP. Big whoop. If the Rethuglicans would stop messing with our “good faith and credit,” we could start to move our debt in the other direction. The “$100T unfunded liabilities” is a conservatarian talking point, a shibboleth for that tribe, describing a disparate pile of we-owe-yous that may are may not be honored. In the aggregate, they are not worthy of bringing down the USA, unless that is the unspoken goal.
    “And today we have competition from several quarters in not only commerce, but also in matters of hegemony. And there are even more differences.”
    Yeah, but we still have the capital and brain-trust mojo. Plus real estate, i.e. location. And a great capitalist economy, which draws people from all over the world to try to succeed in whatever enterprise they choose.
    “So today are we a lesser country when compared to our competition? The answer is an emphatic YES.”
    What competition are you talking about? China?? A flash in the pan. England or Europe? Yeah, maybe Germany but not much else. Russia, India, Burma, Vietnam? It is to laugh…
    “Even a light reading of history (not the crap taught in our public schools) will confirm that now we are not the country that emerged victorious from WW2.”
    Links please…
    Michael A.

    Like

  14. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    PS This is the most important question in the 21st century: “Why the microline through the brain, instead of a less invasive harness?”
    Discuss…
    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2012/10/this-week-in-fiction-george-saunders.html

    Like

  15. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Only conservatives and libertarians should be allowed to vote. All the rest are dumbkoffs. Happy New Year to all!

    Like

  16. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Only people with IQ’s above 100 should be allowed to vote. That way my vote would not be offset by Todd’s at every election!

    Like

  17. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 1023pm – Thanks for your considered reply. I believe it summarizes nicely the progressives’ sanguine attitudes and perceptions about the state of the nation and America’s global standing. The references and detailed discussions outlining America’s decline are given throughout RR and can be easily googled. The debate about the nature and progress of that decline for the last 15-20 years has been publicly debated, much published, and visible to most observers. Some recent commentary –
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/06/history_in_the_making_the_decline_of_america.html
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2012/09/04/world-economists-confirm-americas-decline-under-obama/
    Don’t misunderstand, our fate is our own doing. And we have made a big commitment to downgrade our stature and role in the global community. Your attitude reminds me of the Greeks and Spaniards, and soon the Italians and the French.
    But then, we digress from the matter of who should vote.

    Like

  18. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    George,
    This goes towards a general theme and you 8:16 comment.
    What has happened is materialism has replaced critical thinking, spirituality, and faith in something larger than ourselves. Marketing has become far superior than the mindless screen zombi’s ability to think for themselves. I am sure you are familiar with the term and history of “Bread and Circuses” As we see the middle class sliding into poverty we are seeing more and more of this strategy at play. Keep credit accessible to make up for loss of wages so the working class can keep the guts full and the minds entertained enough where they don’t want to rock the boat to much because they don’t want to lose the little they have.
    I know you love to talk about public debt but have you looked at private debt lately? It is around 600% of the public debt.
    http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/plebians.html

    Like

  19. Gregory Avatar

    Steve Frisch, that IQ threshold would wipe out Ben Emery’s vote while letting Todd squeak by, so be careful what you wish for.
    Ben, private debt is backed by assets that exceed the value of the debt and a promise to pay lest the lender foreclose and take the asset as agreed before the loan is made; public debt is backed only by the promise to extract taxes from the people. There is a difference.

    Like

  20. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 1131am – what you say is true. I venture that we may differ on the causes and the remedies to what you describe. Critical thinking is no longer taught (nay, shunned in academe), and spirituality is effectively proscribed in the public round by prohibiting expression of the tenets that anchor our faiths. And the people will assume debt to the extent that they perceive it to be ‘free’ – low interest rates and promise of government rescue programs.

    Like

  21. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    I think there should be an IQ requirement for president. The highest presidential IQs in resent history were (in order ) Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and Richard Nixon. Had the IQ rule been set at 100 (considered to be average) our country would not have suffered under the Bush regime. While HW came in close at 98 (below average), son George, at 91, came in just two points above “mentally disabled formally called moron” which explains a lot.

    Like

  22. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Could Sarah Palin have passed your proposed voting test?

    Like

  23. Russ Steele Avatar

    Joe@12:16PM
    Joe you did not provide an links to the reported IQs. Here is what a quick search found:
    “First, Bush is definitely intelligent. The IQ estimates range between 111.1 and 138.5, with an average around 125. That places him in the upper range of college graduates in raw intellect (Cronbach, 1960). Admittedly, this average is influenced by Cox’s (1926) corrected scores, which may be overestimates. Yet even if we focus on just the uncorrected IQs, the range is between 111.1 and 128.5, with a mean around 120, which is about the average IQ for a college graduate in the United States. In addition, the figure is more than one standard deviation above the population mean, placing Bush in the upper 10% of the intelligence distribution (Storfer, 1990). These results endorse what has been claimed on the basis of his SAT scores and his Harvard MBA, namely, that his IQ most likely exceeds 115 (Immelman, 2001). He is certainly smart enough to be president of the United States (Simonton, 1985).”
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.14679221.2006.00524.x/abstract;jsessionid=DBDA736BB1C4F4C94B705D271DFFBF58.d03t04
    Here is a table for the Other Presidents: http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/users/gary/bush-iq.tiff
    There is no doubt the Clinton had a higher IQ, but in many cases high IQ does not relate well to common sense, like when to keep your zipper up.

    Like

  24. Russ Steele Avatar

    Joe@12:31
    Regardless of what you think of Sarah Palin, she was a high school honor graduate and had a high enough SAT score to enter the University. She was smart enough to be elected governor, to out smart the political crooks in state government, write two book and get a gig as political commentator on Fox News. My guess, based on her successes she is smarter than your average liberal.
    Oh, but the way the IQ scores on the Internet were photoshopped according to Snopes.

    Like

  25. Gregory Avatar

    When one’s excess IQ is consumed by Bimbo eruptions and discussions on what the meaning of “is” is to dance around perjury charges, it is wasted.
    George, I think you’re talking past Ben on the “critical thinking” issue. You probably have a traditional view that it somehow involves a large amount of intellectual capital involving subject knowledge, knowledge of events, their causes and effects, and a mastery of inductive and deductive logic and the limitations of induction and deduction.
    Ben, and especially Keach, seem to think it’s more an issue of being able to make wild inferences based upon tenuous and superficial facts, and misunderstandings.

    Like

  26. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    RE: zippers .. You might want to add David Patreaus, Newt Gingrich, and a host of politicos world wide to the list. I agree that IQ does not equate to common sense. Neither does wealth. Rather than a focus on whose zippers were up or down, one might want to ask how it is that a president with any common sense at all would invade another country under false pretenses and instead the focus is zippers. These are the real questions.. not zippers

    Like

  27. Russ Steele Avatar

    Joe@01:27
    Joe, are we going back to Bush Lied About WMDs again? What is it that liberal like yourself do not understand about the facts.
    • Iraq under Saddam had and used WMDs, in the guise of chemical weapons, against the Kurds and the Iranians.
    • His agents spent years and millions of dollars trying to acquire the technology for nuclear weapons and a delivery system.
    • It was the official position of the US Congress in the 1990s, and the Clinton administration, along with Secretary of State Madeleine Albright and CIA Director George Tenet, that Saddam sought to develop nuclear weapons.
    • All the world’s intel services reported the same thing. President Bush, who kept Tenet at CIA, accepted the wisdom of the world’s intel wise men, and acted upon it.
    What else should Bush have done? Take a chance that everybody is wrong, and that Saddam had no nukes or nuke program? Saddam thought he had a nuclear weapon, certainly many of his senior military thought Iraq had a nuclear weapons program. He bragged that he had WMDs. The Iranians certainly thought he had or was about to get a nuclear weapon. Were they wrong also?
    Where is your smoking gun? Do you have any evidence that Bush lied, or are you just being a good liberal foot solder and repeating the established manta — Bush Lied?

    Like

  28. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Russ: You correct with your chronology as far as it goes. After the Gulf War Saddam disarmed as requested but kept the fact hidden out of fear Iran would invade again. I have seen a taped interview with the head weapons inspector for the CIA in Iraq David Kay and well as another inspector Scott Ritter, both of whom said there were NO WMDs and haven’t been any for years. When the Kay report was issued stating that fact, Bush went on TV and stated that the Kay report found evidence of WMDs. Kays resigned the next day in protest. Yes Bush lied to the American people in order to legitimize his actions.. Most of the info on Iraq the administration used for its excuse came from unvetted unreliable sources with axes to grind and billions to make. Ask Colin Powell what he thinks. Every piece of information he presented to the UN assembly, all assured by Tenet to be true, turned out to be false. Did you ever see the movie Wag the Dog?

    Like

  29. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Did I forget to mention the whole African yellow cake uranium affair in which Bush underlings outted the primary CIA undercover agent on nuclear proliferation in the middle east, Valarie Plame, after her husband, a well respected Republican diplomat came back from Africa having found no evidence to support Bush’s claim that Iraq was buying yellow cake? Are those enough smoking guns? We could go into Ahmed Chalabi and the Iraqi National Congress, the main source of the false info. Chalibi was a con man later indicted in several different countries for fraud. All of the “eye witnesses” he “found” that testified about the existence of WMD programs in Iraq were later discredited. A simple investigation would have solved that. All of this and more, was ignored. Yes Bush lied to the American people, and so did Cheney, Rumsfeld and the rest of them. Any President who sends soldiers into harms way on a fabrication is guilty of high treason and should be punished as such no matter who was involved. Wouldn’t you agree? Or we can go on and ask the question of why a Republican controlled Congress chose to spend $48 million tax payer dollars investigating Clinton’s zipper but only $800,000 investigating the attack on 911 that Bush immediately and wrongly linked to Iraq.
    Try reading the book (Against all Enemies) by former chief of terrorism under Clinton and Bush, Richard Clark, where-in he describes Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al discussing ways to legitimize regime change in Iraq…. during the very first security meeting they held after Bush took office as well as discussions right after the 911 crisis in which they tried to figure out how to blame Saddam for the attacks despite all evidence to the contrary.

    Like

  30. Russ Steele Avatar

    Joe at 4:44PM
    So, the whole intelligence community lied, including Tenet. As I recall we recently had another incident were Ms Rice used intelligence information, or so she claimed, in reporting the Benghazi incident. So, it Colin Powell lied for Bush, did Rice lie for Obama?
    Are you saying that the other world wide intelligence agencies used “unvetted unreliable sources” Are your saying that the Clinton administration and the US Congress also used those same “unvetted unreliable sources.” What is it in my last post that your did not understand. The whole world thought that Saddam has WMD’s. Why not Bush?
    You have provided no evidence that Buch lied, he use the best available intelligence information provided by the world wide community. Where is the your smoking gun?

    Like

  31. Gregory Avatar

    It had been so long since Plame had been in the field she wasn’t even covered by the legislation criminalizing revealing the secret and besides, it wasn’t Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld or any other Bush crony who “outed” her. It was Richard Armitage, and it was unwitting. Plame and Wilson both got caught with prevarications on the record, but remain main characters for those with chronic cases of Bush Derangement Syndrome, like the usual suspects here.
    Oh, and the words used by Bush in the state of the union remain true; British intelligence still thinks Iraq was in Niger looking for yellowcake. A bipartisan Congressional committee came to the same conclusion.
    One of the folks who believed Iraq had chemical weapons was one Senator Hillary Clinton, who opposed the resumption of direct military action because of the threat of chemical weapons against our troops. So did the Saudis and the Iranians.

    Like

  32. Gregory Avatar

    “A simple investigation would have solved that.”
    Funny. The UN had required Iraq to cooperate with the team investigating in order to prove there were no WMDs or programs to develop them, and they bugged their quarters and played a game of cat and mouse apparently designed to make their neighbors continue to think they had the programs going.
    Sadaam was questioned on that after he was captured and iirc, he thought the Americans would have realized the cat and mouse act was a sham and let him get away with it. Bad bet.

    Like

  33. Paul Emery Avatar

    The decision to go to war in Iraq will unquestionably go down in history as one of the worst foreign policy decisions of all time. Bush is destined to be in the lowest half dozen of any Presidents. Bush was such a disgrace he has been banned from the Party and exiled to his ranch. Nuff said about that.

    Like

  34. Russ Steele Avatar

    Paul@08:09PM
    Yes, “Nuff said about that” because you all have no facts to support your position. Time to move on, “nothing here” to examine.
    Bush was more than willing to let future historians judge is place in history. It too early to tell where he will fall in the ranking. Neither you or I will be here to know the results.

    Like

  35. Paul Emery Avatar

    Russ
    Why then is he shunned from the Republican party? Was that because he was a good President?
    Yes, George W. Bush has said that history will determine the greatness of his presidency. According to an informal poll by George Mason University’s History News Network, 98 percent of historians polled rated Bush’s presidency a failure. Sixty-one percent ranked him last among presidents, while only 4 percent placed him among the top two-thirds.
    Here’s a sample
    “In the eight years since George W. Bush took office, nearly every component of the U.S. economy has deteriorated. The nation’s budget deficits, trade deficits, and debt have reached record levels. Unemployment and inflation are up, and household savings are down. Nearly 4 million manufacturing jobs have disappeared and, not coincidentally, 5 million more Americans have no health insurance. Consumer debt has almost doubled, and nearly one fifth of American homeowners are likely to owe more in mortgage debt than their homes are actually worth. Meanwhile, as we have reported previously, the final price for the war in Iraq is expected to reach at least $3 trillion.”
    http://hnn.us/articles/48916.html

    Like

  36. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    20,000 dead Kurds kinda suspect that Saddam had chemical weapons.

    Like

  37. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 845pm – Don’t sidestep but weigh carefully Gregory’s 740pm and Russ’s 552pm contributions. None of the anti-Bush2 railings have withstood the facts of the matter. All that you and yours are left with again is citing popular consensus which can be and has been bent like a young sapling in the direction of your choosing. Of course the Repubs shunned Bush2, they’re politicians and they were trying to win votes from the carefully convinced cohorts.
    And contemporary historians making a decision on how history will see that President is laughable. They have no perspective. Even though I think Obama is a rock bottom chief executive, and have made a case for that, I’d be the last to predict how future historians will view him. Historians of any perspective and ilk can be bought even more cheaply than politicians. At best the vast number of them are entertaining, with an occasional insight thrown in here and there. Instead, give me an accurate chronicler any time.

    Like

  38. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Let’s see,
    being asleep at the wheel and ignoring intelligence allowing sabotaged jets to smash into our cities
    The greatest economic collapse in recent history
    Engaging in an unconstitutional invasion of a sovereign nations based on faulty intelligence
    nearly doubling of the national debt
    massive housing defaults while paying off too big to fail banks and insurance companies
    inheriting a surplus and leaving massive debt
    Now that’s a legacy few can match

    Like

  39. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, it’s silly to put any stock in the scholar surveys on Presidents, at least to put Bush II or Obama in perspective. It’s obvious that in 2008 on, they’re entirely political.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States#Scholar_survey_results
    The idea that the greatness of Obama is tied with that of James Monroe is just beyond the pale and I’m afraid every single one of your insinuating enumerations on Bush is way off base. Bush derangement syndrome is still in full bloom.
    1) The CIA was still lead by a Clinton appointee (Tenet) and the idea that Bush was anymore asleep at the wheel as Clinton (tell me again why Clinton had the Egyptians let Osama bin Laden go) is ludicrous. There just wasn’t any credible intelligence as to date or method.
    2) The economic collapse was a direct result of a Democratic sacred cow… shoveling home loans to any American who could sign bogus loan applications.
    3) Democrats were key in doubling the debt, and most of it was the Keynesian stimulus almost everyone (outside of the Ron Paul types) demanded when, as we were emerging from the Clinton recession (remember the dot com bubble collapse? that was Clintons) when the World Trade Center was reduced to rubble and over a trillion$ worth of capital evaporated overnight.
    3a) Pelosi and Reid controlled Congress for the last 1/4 of Bush’s time in office. Did things get worse or better?
    4) Iraq had been shooting at us for years; the Desert Storm didn’t end with a peace treaty, it ended with a cease fire giving the UN authority to rehabilitate Iraq but, out of what, 17 resolutions, Iraq complied with (iirc) none of them, including the last one demanding they help prove the didn’t have WMDs or programs to develop them. They punted that one, too.
    5) Most of the paying off Wall St. was on Obama’s watch, with insiders like Geithner directing Executive branch policy.
    6) Clinton was dragged to a surplus by Gingrich, and spending was enthusiastically bipartisan under Bush.
    6a) Obama is the most profligate spender in the history of the presidency
    Nothing succeeds like success. Personally, I think Obama is still on track to be one of the worst presidents in our history, but don’t expect partisan academics to agree anytime soon.

    Like

  40. Gregory Avatar

    Oh, and Paul, George Mason University is almost entirely uninvolved in the “HNN”:
    “George Mason University and HNN
    History News Network (HNN) operates independently of George Mason University. The views expressed are those of its authors and editors and not GMU or the Center for History and New Media. The website resides on GMU’s server.”
    They get use of the GMU server. That’s apparently it. HNN is otherwise in Seattle, WA.

    Like

  41. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    RE:Steve Frisch | 30 December 2012 at 08:12 AM
    I am hust back from a Menza meeting where we discussed SteveF’s expertise as a failed restauranteur. There were many guffaws at the Lienings of his efforts! LOL!
    Happy New Year all!

    Like

  42. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 947pm – Oh my, we’re into another Bush Bashing go-around. Can you imagine if the same list were made for FDR who kept the country in Depression for eight years, increased debt to historical heights, stood by (abetted?) while three major tyrannies grew to global dominating proportions, was totally “asleep at the wheel” when Hitler/Stalin started WW2, and comatose when Japan attacked us. Created the basis for communist expansion and the Cold War at Yalta, … . And these are just the highlights; we haven’t gone into his autocratic and ineffective policies that left the country with scars seen today. But you have to give him credit for what? the TVA?
    Is all this dredge stimulating or what?

    Like

  43. Ken Jones Avatar
    Ken Jones

    Russ is looking for the “smoking gun”. Well Russ speaking of the smoking gun maybe we need to go back to what President Bush and Condoleezza Rice stated on that subject.
    When asked how “close” Saddam was to “developing a nuclear capacity,” Rice replied:
    RICE: The problem here is that there will always be some uncertainty about how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapons. But we don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.
    It was also used by President Bush on Oct. 7, 2002,
    “Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof — the smoking gun — that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud. … ”
    The onerous task of proof belonged to the Bush administration, and there they failed miserably. No WMDs. No Iraq connection to the events of 911.
    The smoking gun theory was put forth by the Bush administration and they couldn’t provide the final proof, the WMDs. Enough evidence exists that the move to war in Iraq was based on embellishment by the Bush administration.
    It isn’t incumbent that those who opposed the Iraq war for many reasons provide the proverbial smoking gun on why or how the Bush administration lied to initiate a war against a sovereign nation. Already enough evidence exists to show President Bush did embellish.
    Russ asked “What else should Bush have done?” Simple continue on the same path that President Clinton followed. Continue to support The Iraq Liberation Act, keep Iraq under tight containment and sanctions. It was unnecessary for the US to put troops in Iraq. The US lost ~4,500 US soldiers and over 32,000 were injured. The monetary cost is ~$1 Trillion with another $9 billion lost or unaccounted for from the Iraq War.

    Like

  44. Russ Steele Avatar

    Ken@09:13
    And I assume that you would also support the Oil for Food program that kept Saddam’s bank account flush to build his castles and continue his nuclear weapons program, while his people starved. How effective are Obama constraints and sanction on Iran? Not very, and it was clear they were not working in Iraq. The US aircraft enforcing the peace accord following the Kuwait attack were being fired on and Saddam was buying Russian antiaircraft missile systems with the oil for food money, under the Clinton “tight containment and sanctions.” It was clearly not working. Now we will see how effective “tight containment and sanctions” when Iran tests it first nuke.
    The real issue in this whole discussion should be the failure of the first Bush to finish the job in the first place. He wimped out, worried about what the lefty world would say. Stupid decision.

    Like

  45. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Perhaps Todd should spend more time at Addicts Anonymous and relationship counseling working on where his real flaws lay.

    Like

  46. Gregory Avatar

    KJ, The Bush admin never claimed an “Iraq connection to the events of 911” but they did mention Iraq in one sentence and then 9/11 in the next. An emotional linkage that I think they were wrong to make.
    Russ, yes, it was Bush the first who left the job unfinished but he bought brownie points from social democrats who thought the UN would do a great job. Yessiree. Even better would have been for Bush the elder to have said to the Saudis and Iranians, “Folks, you’re on your own. Your backyard, your fight, not ours. We’ll help with intelligence and material but we won’t fight your fights for you. The Islamic street needs to police the Islamic streets.”

    Like

  47. Gregory Avatar

    “Continue to support The Iraq Liberation Act, keep Iraq under tight containment and sanctions. It was unnecessary for the US to put troops in Iraq.” KJ
    Wishful thinking. Iraq wasn’t under tight containment; it was leaky as a sieve, with the Oil for Palaces debacle funneling cash to allies in high places in a number of Security Council states including France, Britain, Russia and others. Even war material, like night vision sniper rifles, were making their way from Europe to Iraq which was just biding their time until the US gave up and went home.
    Yes, they were looking for yellowcake uranium, and, like Iran, would be busily on a path towards the nuclear age. That genie is out of the bottle and it will be a miracle, when human history is written, for Nagasaki to be the last use of such a weapon.

    Like

  48. George Rebane Avatar

    Even if we attribute Bush2’s rush to war as a false alarm, we have learned from the past three Democratic presidents who led us into large wars (WW2, Korea, Vietnam) that cost us many times the cost of Gulf2 in lives and treasure. We can now carry on a ten year military intervention (I wouldn’t call it a war) with relatively few casualties and marginal cost to our national fisc. In the process we have had the advantage of retaining and advancing the systems and skills needed to maintain hegemony in the face of disastrous mistakes in foreign policy and running our economy. (This is not meant as definitive justification for Bush2’s invasion of Iraq.)

    Like

  49. Ken Jones Avatar
    Ken Jones

    While not explicitly declaring Iraqi culpability in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, administration officials did, at various times, imply a link. In late 2001, Cheney said it was “pretty well confirmed” that attack mastermind Mohamed Atta had met with a senior Iraqi intelligence official. Later, Cheney called Iraq the “geographic base of the terrorists who had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11.”
    Bush, in 2003, said “the battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11th, 2001.”
    Not my words Gregory but those of Bush and Cheney.
    And Russ the actions of Clinton were working, despite your protests. One key factor, no WMDs were ever discovered.

    Like

  50. Gregory Avatar

    Yes, 9/11 was an act of terror. So was the turning of Israeli schoolchildren into red goo by suicide bombers spurred by large cash payments by Iraq to their families. And the continued killing of Kurds every chance the Iraqis got.
    Again, those are rhetorical linkages to terrorism that DON’T assert Iraq was in any way involved in 9/11.
    Then there was Vlad Putin’s two separate messages to Bush II that Russian spies had two separate leads that Iraq was planning on financing new acts of terror on US soil. Imagine Bush’s place in history had that happened despite being told directly.

    Like

Leave a comment