Rebane's Ruminations
December 2012
S M T W T F S
 1
2345678
9101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
3031  

ARCHIVES


OUR LINKS


YubaNet
White House Blog
Watts Up With That?
The Union
Sierra Thread
RL “Bob” Crabb
Barry Pruett Blog

George Rebane

VoteThe comment stream under ‘How to Protect School Children in Schools’  is another long one which inevitably becomes a bit hairy by developing threads that start covering the waterfront of issues of interest in these times.  Voter qualification was a thread that, to the best of my knowledge, appeared through some process of immaculate conception.  While entirely appropriate to the season, that thread diverts quite a bit from the posted topic and deserves its own venue for discussion.  This is it.

My long held position has been that more than being able to fog a mirror should be required of a US citizen before he is allowed to vote; even more than gaining a majority of 18 years, or not having been convicted of a felony, or not being institutionalized as a mental incompetent.  In short, there should be some intellectual and/or cognitive skills that the citizen should demonstrate that may even alleviate the majority and/or mental incompetency requirements.  But what would these skills be and how would they be measured and certified?

Our Founders recognized similar requirements and left it to the states to set the specifics.  Many required the demonstration of substance through ownership of land, or commercial interest, or wealth.  Various levels of these were judged to be a sufficient proxy for some minimum level of intellectual and cognitive skills.  Later, and mostly under Jim Crow laws, specific tests were imposed that required literacy (gasp!) and a basic knowledge of US civics.  These were struck down under various civil rights rulings.

So now we have a nation of voters who are 40% functionally illiterate, almost totally innumerate and innocent of science, and possess no essential knowledge base of how their governments at any level are constituted and work.  These people are supported by certain of our political minions as long as they can be reliably convinced to vote for bigger government, concentration of federal power, and more transfer payments paid for by higher taxes from the producing class.  And their proportion, as demonstrated by the last election, is such that we are now way past the tipping point at which democracy begins to devour itself.

So, before I taint the discussion with my own prejudices on voter qualifications, can you dear readers present any reasonable basis for change, if any, and if so, what kind?

[29dec12 update]  This post’s comment stream is now mature enough to detect some trends in how the title question is being answered.  First, what some of the progressive readers have confused are the orthogonal notions of 1) what improvements could/should be made to the voting franchise that is granted to some citizens, and 2) what is the likelihood that any given set of changes to voter qualifications would actually be adopted.


True to much noted form in these pages (see under ‘The Liberal Mind’), progressives get a little more than irked at the discussion of improvements or changes.  In fact, a few commenters actually feel that the discussion here may even be subversive in some sense, or at the least, encouraging an autocracy that is dominated by a small intellectual elite.  An open discussion of ‘Who Should (not) Vote’ presumes none of these objectives, save, perhaps, in the minds of people who always know what the other person is ‘really thinking’, and wants to respond only to such hidden (forbidden?) thoughts that their clairvoiance reveals.

In any event, as introduced above and reinforced in these comments, we already do proscribe certain citizens from voting on the basis of residence, continued punishment (ex-felons), and presumed mental capacity to render an informed decision.  The last requirement clearly incites the most interest, as it should.  Our Founders thought, debated, and wrote quite a lot about mental capacity (to understand and know the issues) and the notion of fairness or justice.

Regarding fairness, most people understand that democracies can and do destroy themselves – our Founders most certainly knew that.  Since governments must tax to survive, some  people thought and still do think that the vote should be restricted to those who actually pay taxes.  As government became more rapacious in reaching into our wallets, the taxpayer voter argument has become somewhat moot, since everyone who has any commercial or private dealings involving assets is now taxed – i.e. everyone can be said to pay some taxes somewhere.

Skipping over the perennial punishment levied on ex-felons, that leaves mental capacity as the attribute to be considered.  We already presume, somewhat arbitrarily, that such capacity is sufficiently absent in citizens under 18.  And people institutionalized under various judgments are also proscribed.  So mental capacity to render an informed decision has already been on the table for quite some time.  We here seek to discover refinements that may increase the likelihood that the Republic will survive in any form that resembles our world celebrated legacy.

Certain lockstep leftwingers feel strongly that this entire discussion is out of bounds, and should be left to the sharp wits who gather in the various branches of the federal government – SCOTUS seems to be a favorite.  But I am of those who believe that it is we the citizens who should launch such re-examinations and keep them going to the profit of all.

It is actually Congress and the state legislatures that have the power to say who votes and who doesn’t.  As of late Congress has begun behaving more or less reprehensively, and shirked and/or reassigned its duties to the Executive and Judicial (SCOTUS) branches.  In the January 2013 issue of Chronicles, William Watkins Jr has written ‘Making More of the House’, a fine essay on the subject of representative government as reflected by our Congress, that should be considered in this discussion.  (Unfortunately I can’t find a link to the damn thing, please help.)

Posted in , ,

137 responses to “Who should (not) vote? (updated 29dec12)”

  1. Paul Emery Avatar

    So George , when Pat Robertson says that the Hatian earthquake is payback by the devil does that disqualify from voting because of his “innocent of science”?
    Today on his 700 Club television show, Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson highlighted the tragedy and said that his network will be there “to help the people.” However, he then tried to offer an explanation for the earthquake, blaming Haiti’s own people for once making a “pact to the devil”:
    ROBERTSON: [S]omething happened a long time ago in Haiti and people might not want to talk about it. They were under the heel of the French. Napoleon the Third and whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, “We will serve you if you get us free from the prince.” True story. And so the devil said, “OK, it’s a deal.” They kicked the French out, the Haitians revolted and got themselves free.
    But ever since, they have been cursed by one thing after the other, desperately poor. That island of Hispaniola is one island. It’s cut down the middle, on the one side is Haiti, on the other side is the Dominican Republic. The Dominican Republic is prosperous, healthy, full of resorts, etc. Haiti is in desperate poverty.
    http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2010/01/13/77141/robertson-haiti/

    Like

  2. Russ Steele Avatar

    To vote, a citizen should meet the minimum requirements of those seeking US citizenship. Those requirements include:
    • “an understanding of the English language, including an ability to read, write, and speak…simple words and phrases…in ordinary usage in the English language….”
    • “a knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, and of the principles and form of government, of the United States….”
    If the voter cannot demonstrate proficiency in these simple requirements, then they should not be allowed to vote, regardless of their birth right. It is imperative that citizens understand the fundamental history and our constitutional form of government. It is unfortunate that the Constitution is no longer taught in many of our schools. Liberal’s do not like our Constitutional form of government, and want to create some bastardized version that absolved them of personal responsibility.

    Like

  3. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    There should be history tests, three of them. One written by the Dems, one by the Repubs, and one by independents, with the respective sides providing the correct answers for their tests. Anyone you can pass all three tests at 85% or better can vote. 20 multiple choice questions, drawn from pools of up to 500 questions per party. Both questions and answers are published ahead of time.

    Like

  4. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Open book optional, if you can do it closed book, your vote counts twice.

    Like

  5. Russ Steele Avatar

    Douglas@08:08PM
    Are you saying that Republicans, Democrats and Independents read and interpret the Constitution differently? Can you give us some examples? How about the 2nd Amendment? It seems quite clear. What would be the differences?

    Like

  6. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 653pm – Don’t know if I agree with ol’ Pat, but he does present a plausible explanation from his understanding of Christianity. Again, I don’t know where you are going with this. No one seems to grouse when God is credited with saving a life or causing the storm to abate. Giving faith based reasons for existential events is a hard thing to dispute, and it has been done for an awful long time. But I’d bet the ranch that PatR could pass a reasonable set of requirements such as in Russ’s 713pm.
    And DougK went into the weeds again in his 808pm. Somebody get that frustrated comedian a job on the stage (the next one leaving town).

    Like

  7. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    re: Doug at 8:08 – How about a Dem, Rep and Ind version of current events such as the violence at Benghazi? Taking a history test written by Dems is easy. The answer to all questions is: It’s Bush’s fault. So I pass that one already!
    Seriously now – there is zero chance of any kind of testing for the ability to vote. Already we have seen the requirement for the possession of an ID to be beyond a seemingly large segment of the population. And the corollary issues would be troublesome. For example – if a person is not allowed to vote due to not passing a test, wouldn’t it then be fair to exempt them from paying taxes?

    Like

  8. Paul Emery Avatar

    Yes Scott I believe they call that taxation without representation.

    Like

  9. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 956pm – I’m not sure that “taxation without representation” applies here. People who don’t/can’t vote (like the cited groups) are still represented because they belong to a population that has representatives in government, even if they didn’t vote for them.
    That phrase came from pre-Revolutionary times and expressed a grievance that truly existed since the colonists had no one in Parliament that represented their interests. They were governed and managed by a colonial affairs office. See what we can make of this –
    http://totallyhistory.com/no-taxation-without-representation/

    Like

  10. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Those that cannot pass the tests should be exempt from paying taxes for schools, since they obviously didn’t get their money’s worth, providing they are smart enough to find the right check box on a constantly changing government website.

    Like

  11. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    First, we need to change the proposition process. A college educated voter has great difficulty figuring out what the propositions are for/against. I think it needs to be much harder to get propositions on ballots or the wording needs to pass some simple tests.
    #1.) Obviously, someone not paying income tax (lets say a minimum of $2,500 fed, and/or $1,500 state) should not be permitted to vote.
    #2: I think a non-binding sheet should be included with ballots and tax returns sharing the priorities of said taxpayer; ranking the top 20 expense line items (education, prisons, parks, welfare, etc).”taxpayer, where should we be spending our time and your tax money, please rank the following…. This needs to be tallied and made available to the public.

    Like

  12. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I think only white men who own property and pay taxes should be able to vote. If we are going to be constitutionalists lets really be Constitutionalists!

    Like

  13. George Rebane Avatar

    What are thoughts on having to re-establish voting bona fides, say, as frequently as we have to do that to retain the ability to drive a car?

    Like

  14. Russ Steele Avatar

    Steven@08:55AM
    What is wrong with the Constitution as amended? These amendment were done at the will of the people. While I do not agree with all the changes, I can live with the existing Constitution as Amended. Now all we have to do is get back to following the Amended Constitution.

    Like

  15. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    I don’t think property ownership should be required.
    If you are not paying income taxes you should not be permitted to determine (via vote) how they are spent. Period. Common sense.

    Like

  16. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Not only were the amendments done by the will of the people, the definition of voting rights was done by the will of the people–the governing laws were passed by Congress and adjudicated by the SCOTUS–so they are law. The will of the people. In short, the people have spoken and will not tolerate literacy tests, means testing or civics testing to qualify to vote.

    Like

  17. Peter Van Zant Avatar
    Peter Van Zant

    I don’t remember this subject coming up in 2010 when the tea party won big, or when the Bush’s won. Must be something about the Dems and President Obama.

    Like

  18. George Rebane Avatar

    No one here is arguing that today’s voting is done illegally; defending that hill is a non-starter in this discussion.
    Is it done according to the current will of the people? That is problematic, since laws do change but at any time before the change it could be argued that the will of the people still ruled. So the current exercise is predicated on the proposition that 1) we, as a diverse population, are no longer effectively represented, and 2) that Jefferson’s ‘a nation ignorant and free, that never was and never shall be’ is coming true in spades as the gimmes are outnumbering the givers.
    Therefore, is there a need to change voting laws, and in what way? If you say NO, without a reasonable basis, you are effectively leaving the conversation. If YES, then how and why?

    Like

  19. George Rebane Avatar

    PeterZ 957am – Welcome again Peter, good to hear from you.
    Of course the topic didn’t came up in 2010, because after the election both sides felt they still had some levers of power – Dems had the presidency and retained the Senate, the Repubs just captured the House and had hopes for 2012.
    Today the Repubs’ mood is lower than a snake’s belly, and given the 2012 results, there is reason to believe that the promised fundamental transformation is now fully underway. Conservatives see themselves now as not only a permanent minority, but a second class minority.

    Like

  20. Gregory Avatar

    Frisch 9:46 is a rare instance of both cogency and relevance.
    Rebane 10:07, George, cheer up. Maybe conservatives will manage to bitch slap the evangelical wing enough to make nice with libertarians in order to make a new majority.

    Like

  21. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Only men and women should be able to vote.

    Like

  22. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Those who pay too much in income taxes should not be allowed to vote either. Obviously they’ve mastered gaming the system and it should be illegal for them to change it any more in their favor.

    Like

  23. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Only cat and dog owners should vote. They obviously have compassion for other living beings. BTW, is the 20 dead kids so “last weeks news?” Don’t see any solutions beyond mine as yet.

    Like

  24. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Jeez George, isn’t may answer obvious, its NO. What I am pointing out here is that we have had this discussion as a nation from our founding and the trend has been to liberalize voting laws to create universal suffrage. I am not leaving the discussion, I am pointing out that you, and everyone else here, are engaged in an exercise in magical thinking.
    Meanwhile, this magical thinking is why “Conservatives see themselves now as not only a permanent minority, but a second class minority.”
    This topic is all about President Obama, and becoming a permanent minority. You think that because you lost it must be because the ‘people’ are stupid. What you should be addressing is that you lost because your positions are stupid.
    Lets get something straight: Latinos are now a part of our culture just as Italians became part of our culture, no one gives a darn if people of the same sex marry, reproductive health is part of HEALTH there is no rational for treating one part of the body as legally different from another, no one thinks that we are at risk of adopting Sharia law, no one gives a damn about the UN, and people think that the rich get a free ride in the good old USA compared to their tax rates in the 1940-70’s.
    Until “conservatarians” can come up with a case that resonates with latinos and women, people who support equal rights and seculars, people who care about planning efficient communities and working families, you will be a minority, albeit not a second class one, since you get the same right to magical thinking that everyone else has.

    Like

  25. Gregory Avatar

    Let’s get something straight: the assumptions left unstated in Frisch’s 11:03 is where the meat is.
    It isn’t about “Latinos” being a part in our culture, it’s about illegal immigration. Emphasis on “illegal”; either we have an open border for every other nationality, or we don’t.
    It isn’t about one’s reproductive organs being part of HEALTH care, it’s about the Federal government demanding the providing of free contraceptives (not necessarily the WalMart $9/mo birth control pills, it’s the sky’s the limit) and elective abortions (i.e. kill my baby, please) on demand to those who want it, paid for by someone else. Either your coworkers or the taxpayers as a whole.
    It isn’t about gays and lesbians living together in stable units, it’s about centuries of family law being reapplied as a new relationship is called the same old thing, the tax law that has been built up with a biological family model (yes, women on average make less than men do and it’s almost entirely covered by the time in the workforce that is sacrificed to perhaps the most human of endeavors, having and rearing children) and the desire to ease the tax burdens on the nuclear family. In short, the ‘gay marriage’ debate is about the money, not the bedroom. In California, civil unions provide every spousal right and obligation possible, just not Federal goodies and the right to married benefits that might be part of one’s employment (ie the money and time off).
    Then there’s the slight of hand confusing “tax rates” and “taxes paid”. If you want tax rates of the ’50’s, expect the tax deductions of the ’50’s. How many of you recall that ALL interest on ANY loan being tax deductible? The rationale was that interest was income to someone else, and THEY will pay taxes on it, if owed.
    Really, Frisch, and you were doing so well earlier today. Magical thinking, indeed.

    Like

  26. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory re 28 December 2012 at 10:31 AM
    Are you referring to a new majority within the Repub party or a new party?
    George, just for fun what percentage of our current voters would likely qualify for voting if the testing you propose was in effect?
    “In short, there should be some intellectual and/or cognitive skills that the citizen should demonstrate that may even alleviate the majority and/or mental incompetency requirements. But what would these skills be and how would they be measured and certified?”

    Like

  27. Russ Steele Avatar

    Steven@11:02AM
    If the Republican Conservatives are not on message how can you explain this? They keep gaining governorships.
    “Republicans holding governorships in 30 of the 50 states, the highest number for either party in 12 years.” It is true that in the last election Democrats retook 7 chambers, but Republican’s made some gains elsewhere:
    “They [Republicans] may have lost supermajorities in four states, but they gained supermajorities in four others—with a possible fifth in Georgia hinging on which party an independent house member chooses to caucus with. Overall, while Republicans lost control of seven chambers, they picked up four others.
    Bottom line is that at the State level conservative are gaining strength and it will become even more so in 2014 as States Rights become the next big Tea Party issue.

    Like

  28. Gregory Avatar

    “Are you referring to a new majority within the Repub party or a new party?”
    Paul, it’s a lot easier to change an existing party than make a new one. The GOP could conceivably change enough for me to stop holding my nose by curbing their Evangelicals and a few other excesses, but I don’t see the Dems voluntarily changing as state and federal spending is the glue that holds them together, and that’s a hard addiction to kick.

    Like

  29. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    A hard addiction for the Repubs to is massive military spending and support for the role of the worlds police force. That alone will keep any self respectable Libertarian away. The Evangelicals are about 46% of the party and of course they have god on their side so I don’t see them being pragmatic.

    Like

  30. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, Dems are nearly as addicted to military spending, and both Clinton and Obama have bombed countries and killed their civilians without the quaint formality of actually being at war.
    They just want different wars and killing, along with a slashing of the defense budget so they can spend the money buying votes more directly.

    Like

  31. Paul Emery Avatar

    I agree Gregory about the Dems on Military spending. I was pointing out that as long as we have the police force of the world agenda the Pubbers or Dems will likely not get enthusiastic support from Libertarians in general. Also, the way Ron Paul was treated at the convention will not be soon forgotten.

    Like

  32. Gregory Avatar

    I would not in my wildest dreams think the GOP would change to make even libertarians in general(not specifically Libertarian Party members) enthusiastic about being Republican. However, it wouldn’t take much movement to gain a few percent, and they’d not lose many Evangelicals as long as they at least paid lip service to their hot button issues.

    Like

  33. Videodrone Avatar
    Videodrone

    I realize this is a minority position but I’m of the opinion that the franchise should only be granted to those who have voluntarily served their country honorably either through military service or in some civilian version (say, 2 years community service – hospice – seasonal fire crews – anything that can indicate a commitment to the greater community) and are otherwise law abiding, tax paying legal residents.
    if you don’t have skin in the game, if your life isn’t on the line, if you don’t pay for it, it has no value.
    case on point; our current condition…

    Like

  34. Gregory Avatar

    Vid, what we have now is more about free Obamaphones and pretending we can change the weather with carbon taxes than a lack of teenaged cannonfodder.
    “Service guarantees Citizenship”; sounds like the tag line from a shlock sci-fi action flick with a little T&A thrown in for the kiddies.

    Like

  35. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK 1053am – I thought I also gave a fairly detailed solution – perhaps you missed it.
    Gregory 1234am – Amen.
    PaulE 1246am – Before my parents became US citizens in 1955, they had to attend citizenship class for approximately one year, and then pass an exam that demonstrated they were literate in English, knew the main themes of American history, and understood how the government was constituted and worked. As a high school teenager, they had me quiz them in the evenings. They took considerable pride in mastering that curriculum, and were continually amazed at how little native Americans knew about their own country.
    I would be surprised if two out of five adults today could pass that citizenship exam. Should every voter be literate and possess such a fundamental knowledge base about our country – I would say yes. And if they don’t, then it’s time to go to a local high school or community college in the evenings and pick up some smarts to help them cast their own vote, instead of someone else’s.
    Videodrone 313pm – Intriguing notion, one that has been discussed for many years. National service, in its various forms, is still required in many countries as milestone to full franchisement. (Sure wish you’d take off the sack with eye holes.)

    Like

  36. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    What an elitist anti-American anti-liberty and anti-freedom post George. Over the last year or so I sat and watched you piece by piece propose the exact forms of government that the American Revolution was fought against. This post is the epitome of class warfare and tyranny.
    The answer is better education for all citizens as an investment as a collective society not making it only available for privileged.
    How on earth can anyone who believes in literacy tests or poll tax call themselves a proponent of liberty and freedom?
    How is there liberty and freedom if a person doesn’t have a say in the laws that they live under? Not having a vote means having no representation and I believe it was Paul who nailed it with taxation without representation. Having to pay a stamp tax was were the coined phrase that came from the Stamp Act, which was put in place to pay for the French and Indian War. Really it was a way to put more control over the American colonies.
    George and his followers promote Defense, Military, and American Empire but ignore the fact these are the traditional tools of tyranny and despotism. Send those who have no representation on the declaration of that war to fight and then tax them or their families to pay for the war itself.
    I am against American Hegemony and war but is not a pacifist. I say this because if George and those who agree with him were ever to really gain any traction I would be the first in line to fight against them from implementing their oppressive ideas.
    So what George wants is the poor to have no voting rights, no right to education thus no way of obtaining voting rights, which means no ability to afford higher education thus never qualifying for public office, no ability to afford health care, and no ability to obtain land or decent shelter. I will stop there but we all get the point.
    What George Rebane wants is something equivalent to a poll tax that discriminates against the poor.
    1) No Public Schools = only those with the ability to pay for education can have one
    2) Private Teachers who only teach the agenda of those who control the wealth and power
    3) Voting rights, which would cease to exist due to those with absolute power don’t let others vote on how much power they can keep, but in George’s fantasy world only those who can pass such tests that are prepared by those who fund and control education
    4) Workers should be paid virtually nothing if they don’t have an education for skilled labor, which means workers will never be able to afford education
    This is basis of a caste system and unless any of the regulars on this blog come from very old money we would all be the uneducated and wage slaves who would live at the mercy of the Aristocratic form of government that would engulf the US within a few generations.

    Like

  37. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Thats OK Ben, when we talk about returning to our roots, we really mean it over here. If it weren’t for the failed War for Southern Independence we could go back to indentured servitude and slavery, then we would not have any problems getting cheap labor and capital would really thrive! Oh, wait, lets re-litigate that little dispute too!
    Here is the simple truth of America: we have been on a quest expanding individual rights, by that I mean the rights of the individual, since our founding.
    Conservatives have struggled to restrict the growth of individual rights and liberty.
    Liberals have struggled to expand them.
    It is the story of our nation….

    Like

  38. Videodrone Avatar
    Videodrone

    Indentured Servitude
    interesting concept, some of my ancestors came over indentured (and one or two were paying for the servant)
    on the face of it – how is it different from the contract one signs and swears to when joining (the all volunteer – for the last 30 plus years) military? (Ooh evil! I heard someone say)
    as a once upon law school student seem to remember that if you have two parties that freely and willingly engage in a contract with “offer” “acceptance” and “consideration” that does constitute a legal and binding contract.
    so, you’re a refugee, someone offers you passage to the new world in exchange for x number of years of your work while you are fed, housed and clothed and often learned a trade (caveat – it has to be decent, humane, which given the conditions that many signed up for was not a difficult threshold to achieve)
    something about giving a man a fish as opposed to teaching him to fish

    Like

  39. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 639pm – I have not proposed anything that our government, reflecting the will of the people, did not impose upon my family and me (and millions of other immigrants) in order for us to become fully franchised American citizens. In your fine essay condemning me, I may have missed what your ideas are regarding the qualifications for voting.
    BTW, by any of the international measures duly applied, during the 40+ year reign of the progressives, America has been on the decline in the ranking of freedoms for the individual and for enterprise.

    Like

  40. Ben Emery Avatar
    Ben Emery

    Videodrone,
    I challenge you to do a search on socioeconomic class of the “all volunteer” US military and see what you find. The rural poor who have less access to services and well funded education systems due to low tax revenues. This is the truth despite having smaller population % they will make up over 50% of those who are enlisted. Predatory recruiting is nothing to be proud of. I will say this those who volunteer to give up their lives to protect the US Constitution should have access to affordable housing, job placement, higher education, and health care along with their families who also contribute so much.
    I would much rather have a $10:1 investment of good education system that produces and educated electorate then to have a huge undereducated poor standing army/ military.
    “And say, finally, whether peace is best preserved by giving energy to the government, or information to the people. This last is the most certain, and the most legitimate engine of government. Educate and inform the whole mass of the people. Enable them to see that it is their interest to preserve peace and order, and they will preserve them…. They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.” Thomas Jefferson letter to James Madison

    Like

  41. George Rebane Avatar

    Re BenE’s 1004pm – fortunately for the rest of us, there is nothing in Jefferson’s quote that supports Ben’s diatribe against the poor being used by the rich to man their evil military. The military of most developed countries have served the careers of the less wealthy and given them an honorable career in and out of the service. It has always been the lot of the second and succeeding sons to seek their fortunes in the military, clergy, or commerce. And America stands in the forefront of those countries whose military has enormously benefited those who did their duty.

    Like

  42. Videodrone Avatar
    Videodrone

    Ben,
    and I’ll challenge you back with real life, My birthday was the 3rd one out of the last draft “bowl” I was in my 2nd year of college having recently transferred from UC Berkeley to CalTech (yeah, I’m a nerd) and given the choices I had at the time (not “Surviving Son”, “Pre-med” or any of the other exempt-able classes) I had few choices – go underground and never be legitimate, go to Canada or go C.O. (had a good friend who did – spent 4 years in “servitude”) so rather than be teenage cannon fodder I volunteered (and as the Coast Guard was full up ended up in the Navy) – both my younger brothers – who were not subject to the draft also volunteered and ended up as a Nuclear engineer and Air Traffic controller (we used to tell Mom that I was still playing piano in the brothel rather than working in “TV”) and I know many recent service folks (and a few reserves) if you wish to think of us as some lower socioeconomic class by all means go for it, just because you believe it does not make it true.

    Like

  43. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    George,
    I don’t even know where to begin. I have a huge collection of quotes from the usual suspects here, and I will respond to them accordingly. But to you I have just one thing we need to get straightened out immediately: if you are born here, you get all the rights automatically; if you want to move here, you have a higher hurdle. Sorry, but them’s the facts. Your parents, and yourself, did an admirable job of inculcating the American precepts into your very being.
    Dumbass born-here Americans? Not so much. But you will never be able to change the rules; it’s in the Constitution as GG, SF, Vid, and even TJ have explained.
    This movement to narrow the voters is a non-starter. It will go nowhere. Never. Ever. Try a new tactic.
    M.

    Like

  44. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 1042pm – well enough then. But since the right to vote has been a public issue since the Revolution, and continues to this day, who do you think should determine who can and cannot vote?

    Like

  45. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    “…who do you think should determine who can and cannot vote?”
    SCOTUS

    Like

  46. Gregory Avatar

    From Frisch:
    “Conservatives have struggled to restrict the growth of individual rights and liberty.”
    That’s the cartoon version from the current left.
    “Liberals have struggled to expand them.”
    Only the politically correct rights, mostly those granted by group membership, have been what the current self described ‘liberals’ have granted. You have the right to believe what you are supposed to believe.
    Just look at how the Frischies of the world treat scientific dissent over catastrophic anthropogenic global warming. Some are even calling for the death penalty.
    “It is the story of our nation….”
    It’s the classic liberals, aka libertarians, who wrote that story, Steve. The debts racked up by the massive growth of the State under the direction of the Federalists mostly of the Democratic persuasion is on the verge of enslaving us all.

    Like

  47. MikeL Avatar
    MikeL

    I think that we should adopt the progressive idea of graduated taxes; the more you make the more you pay; to voting. Everyone of legal age who is a US citizen and does not have criminal convictions that restrict voting gets one vote. Then you would get one additional vote for every $5000.00 that the individual pays in federal income taxes. The States could be free to set up a similar progressive system in the name of those more fortunate then others to be “fair”.

    Like

  48. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Dogs and cats. living together. That is America. The left only wants the dogs.

    Like

  49. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    121,745,725 people voted. Obama won by only 3,476,775. If we have a “voter” problem, at least it is pretty evenly distributed. Voting does not really require as much personal responsibility as, say, driving a car, or owning a gun, in that, for one thing, you cannot irresponsibly or maliciously just go out and kill someone with a voter registration card.
    Congress is the group that needs to be sent to the re-education camps for remedial instruction in ethics, morality, responsibility, accountability, honesty and integrity.

    Like

  50. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    George, thanks for the comical comment stream… it has been a doozy. The concept of liberals fighting for individual liberty and conservatives for tyranny is priceless (considering the focus of liberals is on collectivism, central power, central planning, individual sacrifice). Perhaps I am missing some sarcasm?
    I think emotions are running high (maybe because Obama turned out to be politician and not a deity).
    I still believe that only taxpayers should be able to vote. But, I am logical and I know that nothing is going to change regarding voting requirements.
    FACT: Conservatives cannot compete with the freebies-for-votes offered by the liberalsand are passed the tipping point (debt is unsustainable and tax structure mortally broken).

    Like

Leave a comment