Rebane's Ruminations
December 2012
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George Rebane

The 14dec12 Newtown shootings have raised two distinct issues in the public mind – 1) how to protect kids in school against rogue shooters, and 2) how to quickly politicize public passions and focus them on the progressives' long term program to disarm America.  My 17dec12 post ‘Fire! Ready, Aim – Panic-driven Public Policy’ invited discussion of WHEN and HOW we should proceed to find solutions to protecting kids in school, and admonished the rush to agenda driven ‘solutions’ before we knew the results of the massive investigation now underway in Newtown.

Few commenters cared to wait, and all wanted a rush to judgment which it appeared that each was also enthusiastic to lead.  The predictable divisions emerged instantly and almost all the ‘solutions’ offered contained no substantive reasoning to buttress them.  It was again sloganeering time, and all the old ones were hauled out, dusted off, and shouted across the ideological barricades.

No one even offered an objective (or utility function) that would at least frame a reasonable discussion.  To the simpletons it was simple, don’t we want to save school kids’ lives?  What in hell is complicated about that?!  And since guns were used for the killings, make it impossible for everyone including killers to get guns.  And what in hell is complicated about that?!

More reasoned voices counseled us to make haste slowly , and at least wait until we find out what led to the Newtown massacre.  (Taleb’s ‘procrastination promotes antifragility’ which I’ll cover soon, cf Antifragile – Things that gain from disorder)  But louder voices – led by our President and New York’s Bloomberg – advised proceeding in the heat of public passions lest they cool and let another crisis go to waste.

Enter the NRA, after letting some of the dust settle, to propose the installment of armed security personnel at all schools.  My own contribution was to achieve that security through arming of selected existing school staff, and augment through use of volunteer CCW permit holders from the community.  Such solutions brought out nationwide howls from the country’s leftwing that were appropriately amplified by the lamestream.

In spite of today’s ‘Fire!, Ready, Aim’ approach, we hear of more concerned heads taking appropriate actions to provide for the health and safety of their community’s school children.  Marlboro Township in New Jersey has adopted the NRA approach and will station armed security in their schools.   Also it turns out that other school districts in saner states already have armed school staff (teachers and administrators) on duty in their schools.  Here’s an AP report on a Texas town that is concerned beyond national demagoguery about their kids’ safety.  Things could be looking up, if we let them.

So, the purpose of this post is to dedicate a forum in its comment stream for discussing solutions to halt/reduce the incidence of school shootings, or more comprehensively, to school killings.  And for those discussants whose intellect and temperament allows, I offer a simple objective or utility function – minimize the expected rate of K-12 kids being killed while attending school.  Considering the last twelve years, that death rate is somewhere around 130/12 or 10.8 kids per year (data here).

A taxonomy of solution categories may be structured as follows –

1.    Increase National Gun Control/Confiscation
2.    Provide additional armed security at/on school facilities
2.1.    NRA approach – hired armed guards in schools
2.2.    Israeli approach – armed school staffers
2.3.    Rebane approach – volunteer CCW permit holders and Israeli approach
3.    Revise mental disorder laws to allow early interdiction of potential rogue shooters
4.    Various combinations of above categories
5.    Don’t address the problem and just vilify other solutions and the people who present or support them.  (This is really not a ‘solution category’ but an inevitable ‘response category’.)

[29dec12 update]  Physician and lawyer Dr Robert Bernat writes in today's WSJ a sober piece titled 'A Reluctant Vote in Favor of Armed School Guards'  wherein he observes that "Only one of the proposed responses to the Sandy Hook attack promises to have an immediate, positive effect."  Worth a read, especially by our liberal readers.

[14jan13 update]  As the White House now becomes the architect of the insanely ineffective gun control proposals being aired by the Left, here's some sanity from, of all places, Cal Fire News entitled 'How many kids have been killed by school fire?'

Posted in , ,

106 responses to “How to Protect School Children in Schools (updated 14jan13)”

  1. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Fence, with motion detection cameras for spaces where no one should be. If someone is there during times when no one should be there, flashing red light on monitors ringing the main office next to appropriate monitor.
    Airlock style gating at entrance, by which I mean a closed off area, walled and roofed and well lite, where incoming students and visitors can be checked with metal detectors, when necessary.
    Cash rewards for student who identifies anyone who does not have a guest pass on. given at outer entrance to airlock, as legal parents and substitute (Guest) teachers arrive. Aware students are your first line of defense. Guest pass changes color from day to day, and could have electronics flashing today’s safe code.
    Could have weapons securely locked up at night, (think bank vault) and only available during the day by biometric locks, and only when the principal or other authorized person presses a wireless key that unlocks those locks.
    Optional archery equipment for those not wishing to use firearms.
    Full insurance policies for all those who choose to defend, for both injury and death. Or maybe, just for all staff, regardless, unsafe work environment, etc.
    Bullet proof vests for the same folks.
    School paid access to practice range.
    School paid gym membership, keep these folks in top condition, likewise free vision plan for updating glasses, contacts.
    And of course yearly checkup on all gun registrations, nationwide, as seen here: http://farstars.blogspot.com
    Foolproof PA system with warning codes, and emergency lighting signal indicators, in the shape of the school layout, such that affected area(s) would go to flashing red.
    Doors on classrooms with locks and substance that will withstand being shot without opening. Not sure what to do about the window sides.

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  2. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    On #1, monitors would be up high in ceiling, plus a master larger monitor that goes to motion area screen, probably mounted lower.

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  3. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK 345pm – Good kick-off Doug and I like that you’ve structured and modularized it. Since cost will be a factor, in what order would you start implementing your system – i.e. order the numbers from highest to lowest priority.

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  4. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    10, 3, 1, 2, 11, 12, 5, 7, 4, (huge expense) 9, 8, 6, (if only one attack per year, with 137,000, this should be cheap, even at 4 million per dead employee)
    13. fund to pay for civil suits by families of students, injured or killed (this would be much more expensive)

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  5. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    137,000 schools, nationwide, public and private, k through 12.

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  6. Gregory Avatar

    I’ve an even cheaper and simpler one:
    1) Let school staffers who have a CCW carry on school grounds.
    2) Let parents who happen to have a CCW carry when they are on school grounds.
    3) Let anyone with a CCW and a valid reason to be on the campus, carry.
    4) In other words, treat schools like everywhere else, which is what the law was before the pretend gun free zone was dreamed up.
    There’s a reason homeowners have a better record not shooting innocents than the police do… they know who belongs and who doesn’t. The idea that volunteers with CCW’s should cycle in and out gives me the willies, as does the idea of an armed guard who doesn’t have an educational function.

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  7. Russ Steele Avatar

    Don’t mess with Marlboro Township. “We’ve made a collective decision as a town that we need armed security in each of our schools”

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  8. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    How many CCW folks would be out at Grizzly Hill? How likely would our local sheriff be inclined to issue a CCW to a teacher who requested it for the purposes you’ve indicated? How about a, heh heh, substitute teacher? My proposal gives day in and day out protection, and reduces the odds of night time and weekend break-ins, as long as the cameras send live to the internet.
    Your plan has the fatal flaw I’ve mentioned several times already. The lone teacher, on the far side of campus, gets jumped, for purposes of getting a free gun. You can teach and monitor your charges, or you can watch for ambush. You can’t do both at the same time.

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  9. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 614pm – not sure why a volunteer and trained CCW permit holder on regular rotating duty in his neighborhood school would give you “the willies”, but arbitrary CCW people walking in and out of schools leave you at peace.

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  10. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    George – you’re asking the wrong question for the lefties here. We’ve already established that the childrens’ safety is not very high on their list. Their question is only – “how can we disarm the private citizen?” And the one lefty posting on this topic is backtracking pretty quickly due perceived dollar cost and petty concerns about avian porcines. We have armed guards at malls, court houses, state houses, airline terminals, legislative houses, schools attended by the sons and daughters of left wing elites, etc. When it comes to our children in public schools, you may as well erect a bill board with a big arrow pointing to the classrooms saying “defenceless and helpless – come and get ’em”. We can tear down that billboard without spending a dime. If the left doesn’t like guns in schools, why do they call for them as soon as something goes wrong? Once of prevention > pound of cure.

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  11. George Rebane Avatar

    ScottO 747pm – I’m doing my best to foster this discussion and get people to focus on a specific problem. And we’ll see how many of our progressive brethren – also cistern 😉 – step up to the plate with ideas. While personally more in tune with Greg’s 614pm, I’m also heartened by DougK’s 343pm and 415pm.

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  12. George Rebane Avatar

    Rearview mirror – I’ve updated ‘2013, the year of the Progressive Pandemic’ with a link to a fascinating interview with George Gilder. H/T to Russ Steele who pointed me to the interview.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/12/2013-the-year-of-the-progressive-pandemic.html

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  13. videodrone Avatar
    videodrone

    um, I was a student in rural NorCal when the Zodiac was threatening to kidnap a school bus, we had parents literally riding shotgun on the school buses (and this was at an age where I would leave the house with a .22 and leave it at the end of the ranch road and pick it up when dropped off in the afternoon) there was even a shooting range under the High School stage – don’t recall any rampage killings then…

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  14. Gregory Avatar

    “not sure why a volunteer and trained CCW permit holder on regular rotating duty in his neighborhood school would give you “the willies”, but arbitrary CCW people walking in and out of schools leave you at peace.”
    One is taking on a role of providing security among people they have no usual contact with as something of an ersatz policeman, and the other is going about their business and just happen to be carrying concealed.

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  15. videodrone Avatar
    videodrone

    Gregory
    as a parent and long time CCW holder I rather resent the implication that as a concerned parent I would somehow endanger others children?

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  16. Gregory Avatar

    Video, you somehow have it backwards. I’ve nothing against you volunteering for something useful at the school while carrying concealed, assuming the school knows about it. If what you want to do is play Policeman, I’d rather you didn’t.

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  17. videodrone Avatar
    videodrone

    Sorry if I misinterpreted your post Gregory – I have absolutely no desire to play “cop” only that us “back woods folks” will do what we deem necessary as we see it (operative assumption that it better to beg forgiveness than ask permission)

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  18. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Videodrone appears to be confusing two separate entities:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Chowchilla_kidnapping
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer
    and then there was one that happened three blocks from me. Shortly thereafter I left my more or less native Berkeley and headed for Marin County.
    It was uncertain at the time if the murder of the guy on Berryman Street was Symbionese Army, Black Panthers, or Zodiac. I am unable to find a record at this time, as of course the Patti Hearst thing went down around that time. Need to check the archives of the Berkeley Gazette, which I used to deliver.

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  19. George Rebane Avatar

    Video 958pm – share your experiences in the golden age as recounted here many times. But I don’t think we can do a cultural reverse to those days – our values have been destroyed in the public forum.
    Also, I share your 1007pm sentiment. My suggestion has nothing to do with “playing policeman”, but its perception by some as trained volunteers being incompetent in that task may require better communication on my part. The trained volunteer would definitely not be one that was “providing security among people (with whom) they have no usual contact.” They would quickly become known by the staff and students in the course of their duty. And given the nature of their required response, there would be less of an “ersatz” component to them than to volunteer firemen who protect many communities in the land.
    In any case, save the predictable progressives, I wonder how many others share that fear.

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  20. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    I think everyone responding here should watch this video about how people react in crisis situations when they have a gun. http://www.upworthy.com/the-nra-thinks-more-guns-are-the-answer-bless-their-hearts-then-watch-this?c=bl3

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  21. Gregory Avatar

    “A trained volunteer” to do a security officer or policeman’s job, only for free. And because no one sane would do that 40 hours a week, we’ll have them come in a couple times a month and, besides being a gun carrier, they’ll have little to do.
    Sorry, but I think in the end you’ll have more problems than you solve.

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  22. L Avatar
    L

    Keach,the topic is how to prevent school killings, not burglars. The Israelis, as they often do, had taken a need-driven common sense approach. Have staff, plural), properly trained, carry concealed. Don’t flag the Vp who’s carrying- jeez! Uncertainty is the key…
    The Israelis have a huge edge here, as I brought up to no attention the other night; virtually every sane citizen in that land has military training, so qualified teachers aren’t hard to find.
    Once again, we’d do well to require national service from every young person after high school, minimum of one year- basic, advanced individual training, and 6 months of active military service, followed by a reserve system like the Israeli or the Swiss. Problem solved. This would also let us identify the problem children early in the process; they’d be the ones rejected for military service and steered into alternate service, or institutionalized at an appropriate point in their “development.”
    We had something like that, back in the day, and while many (myself included) didn’t much like it, it worked wonders with kids who didn’t like to get up in the morning. L

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  23. Gregory Avatar

    “The Israelis, as they often do, had taken a need-driven common sense approach. Have staff, plural), properly trained, carry concealed. Don’t flag the Vp who’s carrying- jeez! Uncertainty is the key…”
    And have a sense of scale; the chances of anyone being in a position of drawing their weapon is on par with being hit by lightning.
    Let me talk about this in the context of air transport pilots carrying guns as opposed to Federal air marshals on scheduled air carriers. The ATP is more stable, smarter and more knowledgeable than the average FBI type, and, if they wanted, they could already kill or incapacitate everyone during most phases of flight. So why were so many opposed to them having a gun?
    I recall an airline captain, irritated when a Homeland Insecurity guard confiscated his fingernail clippers, objected saying, ‘If I wanted to kill everyone on the plane I could do it without the clippers’, and was wrestled to the ground and handcuffs for his trouble. I’d much rather have guys like that captain with a gun than those guards. Reality, what a concept.

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  24. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    What Greg and “L” are missing is that my system is flexible enough to allow any staff person to become a defender, assuming the principal/superintendent gives the OK. The approval level may vary from district to district. Once approval is given, any one or just select secure day time boxes will open to their touch. The secure daytime boxes can contain any of several weapons, and are standardized, with secure attachments to the building structure, such that their locations can vary day to day, if so desired, thus giving that uncertainty factor that I would agree with Greg is valuable. The boxes are placed in the morning before students arrive, and removed for bank vault style storage at night. The boxes would be tamper resistant, and would send out a wireless alarm on local loud bell alarm if tampered with. Basically you could have a custodian move these in and out of place, without being able to get at the weapons. RFID at every exit point from the school and major alerts for any exit attempts.
    That brings me to a new priority #1.
    #1. Wireless Panic Buttons, also using BioID technology, and only to be used in yellow mode if an intruder is detected, and full red mode if intruder is attacking. These would be installed and combined with the mapped warning indicators originally listed as #11, but upgraded to flash either yellow or red for affected area. I place these ahead of #13, because #13 going to be a batch to get through, and will take a long time to have a real effect. I want those kids safe now, and this is the best way to make it go.
    BTW, on the archery equipment, two types, regular bow and arrow would require minimal storage protection, could be left in minimally secured classroom storage area overnight. Second type would be crossbow, requires more storage security, could be left in classroom over night. And lastly, in the Hail Mary category, would be airguns, pellet and paint, with special paint balls with really nasty smelling stuff, and bright distinctive color. Even if a teacher died shooting one of these, the perp would now be plainly marked for all the world to see. If many in the school are armed, the incoming cops need a good hint.
    On that note, let’s add one more Keachie innovation. Upon getting a Red wireless Panic Signal, an autofilling brightly colored helium balloon would autolaunch above the affected zone, such that incoming LE could go directly to the area initially affected. The more of these the merrier, for precise locating the perp(s) in a hurry. My guess would be they could be mass produced for under $500 a pop (no pun intended) installed.
    I release the balloon concept into the public domain, for the children.

    Like

  25. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Oooops, mistakenly referenced #13 above, and should have referenced #10
    ” I place these ahead of #13, because #13 going to be a batch to get through, and will take a long time to have a real effect. I want those kids safe now, and this is the best way to make it go. ”
    SHOULD READ:
    ” I place these ahead of #10, because #10 going to be a batch to get through, and will take a long time to have a real effect. I want those kids safe now, and this is the best (cheapest and can be done quickly) way to make it go.”
    PS You would want to make the triggering mechanisms as hackerproof as possible.

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  26. MikeL Avatar
    MikeL

    I agree with Jesus, the school personnel should be taught how to effectively use bow and arrows to take down a mentally unstable POS who is killing the children. Maybe they could also be taught how to use throwing stars, spears or perhaps a blow gun. I can just see it now, teachers arming themselves with a carbon fiber compound bow hanging from their side and a quiver of arrows slung over their shoulder.

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  27. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    My gut says that even attempting to prevent pure evil is futile. But, I understand our need to try.
    I would go on an offensive. I would start a good ‘ol fashioned propoganda campaign celebrating the brave men and women who have protected Americans in the past from crazy gunmen. I would focus attention on the cities/school districts that allow folks to protect themselves.
    At least imply that a crazy would be met with force. The concept of a gun free zone is idiotic and inviting.
    I will be PC and ignore Holleywood’s hypocricy.

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  28. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    FTW
    Ron Paul: “We cannot reverse decades of moral and intellectual decline by snapping our fingers and passing laws”

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  29. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I agree, lets spend all of our time protecting the less than 1000 people who died of mass shootings since 1982 and screw the 660,000 who joined them in death by gun.

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  30. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    So I guess we should also have armed police as well in advance of fire crews. Where does it stop? .
    http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20121224/NEWS01/312240026/2-firefighters-killed-2-wounded-Webster-blaze

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  31. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    I watched a bit of “Slay the Nation” on Sunday and Bob Scheiffer had the NRA President on. If anyone had any doubts about the liberal lamestream bias it was on full display. BS tried time after time to get the NRA fellow to concede to his liberal bias about guns. The NRA guy totally destroyed BS and his position. It was so great to see a articulate man, someone who would not back down to the BS and he was convincing. The point the NRA fellow would not concede was increased regulation of guns (his position was children’s safety from nut cases). BS used the “drivers license” argument and the NRA guy totally destoyed it. It was a joy to see and hear a person chuck the liberal argument into the trash. Lovely!

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  32. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    It stops when society stops churning out murderers. The NRA used to be in the schools teaching gun safety, but they were kicked out – now we have idiot teenagers shooting their friends by “accident”. It’s the guns fault, don’t you know. You lefties want a progressive society and we’re getting it. There is no perfect. But, as has already been pointed out, back in the 50’s (my frame of reference as a child) almost no black or white kids would dream of walking around with a gun shooting others that looked at them funny. I know what went on in my neighborhood and many blacks my age or older can testify what went on even in ghettos. Society and families just wouldn’t tolerate it. A friend of mine came home one day from work and found a rifle behind the couch. His son told him he was stashing it for a friend who was on probation. Needless to say, that rifle went to the police station ASAP. Way too many young boys today just don’t have fathers or anyone at home to corral them and bring them to heel. The cops know who the gang bangers are but can’t do anything until the shooting has already started. Little kids get shot because the mother’s boyfriend was “baby-sitting” at 2 in the morning doing drug deals. There are many factors of course, but we can stop a lot of it. Banning this or that gun won’t even begin to stop it. That has already been sadly proven. This nonsense about banning AR15s is just pathetic. That won’t even put a dent in the problem.

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  33. MikeL Avatar
    MikeL

    Steve I am not sure what kinda of sick thing you are into but leave me out of screwing dead people. The 660k people who died from gun violence pales in comparison to the number of dead due to vacuum in the birth canal. This is in no way meant to lessen the tragic deaths of those by flying lead poisoning but rather to make a moral or immoral equivalent depending on your way of thinking.
    Below is a little blurb making the rounds on the email express regarding gun control….
    A LITTLE GUN HISTORY FOR YOU GUYS. Lets “SHARE” this and try to educate the uneducated.
    In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million ‘dissidents’, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
    In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    G…ermany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
    China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated
    Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
    You won’t see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.
    Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.
    Take note my fellow Americans, before it’s too late!
    The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.
    With guns, we are ‘citizens’. Without them, we are ‘subjects’.
    During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!
    If you value your freedom, please spread this antigun-control message to all of your friends.
    SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
    SWITZERLAND’S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
    SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!

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  34. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    And at movie theaters, malls, workplaces, day care centers, churches, everywhere more than 3-4 people congregate…dinner parties, bar mitzvahs, sweet sixteen parties, the entire nation can be an armed camp……we have 300 million guns in the US and we have 30,000 dead a year. If more guns equalled more safety we would be one of the safest nations on earth.

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  35. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Hey Mike L. seems to me you are the one making references to necrophilia. You may want to see someone about that. But that’s OK, you plan to save 1000 while 600,000 die…

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  36. Gregory Avatar

    Now it’s 660,000 who’ve met “death by gun”. A phony statistic inflated by suicide.
    I’ve had two friends (or at least friedly acquaintences) commit suicide in the last couple of years. Brian was an upcoming 3 time loser in the North San Juan drug trade, probably facing life in prison with the latest. A friend in law enforcement suggested he ‘retire’ to Costa Rica, but he instead decided to hang himself from a tree. Another friend, Shelley, found him, and within a year, never the most stable, she decided to jump off the highway 49 Yuba River bridge in the darkness after a couple of unsuccessful suicide attempts… the last one worked. Neither of them could legally buy a firearm, but if they could I suspect they might have given that a try and become a statistic Frisch could use.
    In short, it’s a big lie to include suicides by gun when discussing gun laws. The Japanese commit more suicide than we commit murder and suicide combined, and they ain’t got no guns [permit me a moment of Frischian fake folksiness] to speak of.

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  37. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Well George, it’s going about as you predicted. I suspect that Gregory has never been to Golden Gate Park’s archery range, where you can watch archers with modern equipment stack arrows into 6 inch circles from 200 yards out, for Sunday afternoon recreation. It’s quite impressive, at 200 yards you may have a hard time seeing the archer. Given nothing or a compound bow, which do you prefer? The cross bow, of course, allows for much less in the way of body exposure. And of course even a tire iron would be of some help. But mainly, with the country now on high alert, and discussing and in some cases acting on all these possibilities, unless an psycho is indeed ready to die, he’ll probably think twice about going after schools. We certainly haven’t seen any airliners hit building of late.

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  38. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    When comparing ourselves to other countries and their gun policies, many seem to make the mistake of assuming cause and effect being strictly a function of gun laws. This leaves out all the other variables such as standard of living, education of populace, diversity of populace, general welfare and health, current economic situation, etc. We are not Switzerland, or Israel, and never will be. We are squabble infested Team USA.

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  39. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    I have just read the Frisch comments on the purple blog about this issue. He is truly a moron. How anyone would have him in charge of anything is truly amazing.

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  40. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    As I just said, we are Team USA, and our culture will never be Japan’s where the population density is something many of us simply could not cope with. The neat thing about guns is that it is hard to screw up suicide, especially if you pick the Hemmingway route. Given that most people checking out seem to try other methods in hopes of being saved, given how easy it is to get a gun, unless you’re broke, I’d say having one may make it much easier to succeed, when you really would like to fail. Besides, momma nature’s going to get you soon enough, if a drunk driver doesn’t.
    If suicides are not to be counted, then I would have to count on Greg being in favor of the last doctor you’ll ever need, as in DooWahWah’s Dr. Kvorkian. DooWahWah is a musical group, with very clever lyrics.

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  41. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    Re: SteveF – 9:31 Of those 30,000 deaths each year more than half are suicides. What cannot be known and therefore cannot appear in statistics is the number of crimes that are prevented by guns that are not fired or, in many cases, even brandished.

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  42. videodrone Avatar
    videodrone

    Douglas 1057,
    not confusing the two, I was about to be discharged from the US Navy when the two loonies buried the school bus in Chowchilla and if you even read the wacky-wiki on the Zodiac you would see the following;
    :Stine letter and bus threat
    On October 14, 1969, the Chronicle received another letter from the Zodiac, this time containing a swatch of Paul Stine’s shirt tail as proof he was the killer; it also included a threat about killing schoolchildren on a school bus. To do this, Zodiac wrote, “just shoot out the front tire & then pick off the kiddies as they come bouncing out.”

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  43. Paul Emery Avatar

    Here is a pretty good itemization (reprint) of gun violence during a week in America. It’s only the tip of the iceberg. My view is that guns are a safety hazard that current laws and lack of enforcement of existing laws allow to be placed in the hands of incompetent and dangerous people. Any argument about that?
    This week
    3 Shot And Killed In Mich… 18-Year-Old Shot Multiple Times, Dies… Man Kills Wife, Teen, Himself… Man Shoots, Kills Own Son… Cops Shoot Teen Dead… Man Gunned Down In Parking Lot… 5 Dead In Spate Of Shootings… 2 Murdered In Philly… 2 Kansas Cops Shot Dead… Shooter Killed… 4 Die In Apparent Murder-Suicide… Ga. Cop Dies From Gunshot… Argument Leads Teen To Shoot Friend… Man Shot To Death… Teen Dies After Being Tied Up, Shot… Man Shot Dead In Street… Drug Deal Leads To Shooting Death… Mother Of 2 Killed In Road Rage Shooting… Man Shoots, Kills Intruder… 1 Killed In Coney Island… Man Dies From Gunshot Wounds… Cops Investigate Gun Death… Shooting Victim’s Body Found On Bike Trail… Man Charged With Shooting Own Brother Dead… Man Dies After Being Shot In Chest… Body Of Shooting Victim Found In Pickup… Teen Arrested For Robbery Shooting Death… Man Carrying 2-Year-Old Son Shot Dead… Man Fatally Shot Near Home… Parolee Dies In Shooting… 1 Killed In Buffalo Shooting… Man Shot Dead In Apartment Complex… Street Gun Battle Kills Grandma Bystander… Man, Woman Dead In Apparent Murder-Suicide… Woman Shot Dead By Intruder… 14-Year-Old Arrested Over Fatal Gun Attack… Man Found Shot Dead In Parking Lot… Woman Shot In Face By Ex-Boyfriend… 1 Woman, 3 Men Shot Dead… 2 Die In Attempted Robbery… Army Reservist Shot To Death In Alley… Man Shot To Death In Bodega… 2 Shot Dead In Burned House… Man Shot During Break-In… Man Fatally Shot… 20-Year-Old Gunned Down… Man Shoots Self During Police Pursuit… 1 Killed In Baltimore Shooting… Cops ID Shooting Victim… 60-Year-Old Man Shot Dead… Shot Man’s Body Found In Vacant House…. Woman Shot And Killed Outside Her Home… Shooting Victim Was ‘Trying To Turn Life Around’… Slain Shooting Victim Found In Street…. Driving Altercation Leads To Shooting, 1 Dies… 3-Year-Old Dies In Accidental Shooting… Man Turns Self In After Allegedly Shooting Wife… Man Shot Dead Outside Home… 3 Slain In Separate New Orleans Shootings… Cops Investigate Shooting Death… Man Shot Dead In Ohio… Teen Shot To Death… Man Dies After Being Shot Multiple Times… Man Charged Over Son’s Shooting Death… Cops Find 2 Men Shot Dead… 1 Dies In Shooting… Man Charged Over Gun Killing… 1 Shot Dead In Confrontation… Man Charged With Murder Over Shooting… Motel Owner Shot And Killed… Husband Shoots Estranged Wife Dead… Suspect Arrested Over Deputy’s Shooting Death… Police Probe Fatal Shooting… Cops Kill 2 Suspects In 3 Shooting Deaths… Man Killed Fighting Back Against Robber… Man Killed In Home Invasion…. Nightclub Shooting Kills 1… Child Brain Dead After Drive By Shooting… Man Charged Over Shooting Of Ex-Wife… Body Found In Vacant House… Teen Fatally Shot……. On and ON
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

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  44. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Douglas Keachie
    I’ll bet dogs have prevented more would-be crimers than guns, at least in rural areas. At least they have moved the crimes onto dogless neighbors. Perhaps schools should have Official Dogs to greet folks. And we need to make sure they do not come apart under gravitational stress (obsure Sci-fi reference)
    VD, I did not and do not follow Zodiac that closely, so you are correct. I do so hope Zodiac is dead.

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  45. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    WTF, you telling me death by suicide does not count toward gun deaths? Well boys, that’s how everyone else, including the NRA counts them. OK,,, who gives a sh*#, then its 300,000 since 1982…..I am sure that makes it easier for you!

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  46. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    By the way, mental health professionals are taught to ask two questions when someone talks about suicidal tendencies. The first is, “do you actually intend to kill yourself”; the second is, “do you have the means”. By means they mean an appropriate amount of stockpiled prescription drugs or a gun.
    Now Gregie may have anecdotal evidence of friends who have committed suicide by other means, but the reality is guns are quick, easy and almost foolproof, so they are a method of most likely choice. The truth is when faced with hanging themselves, jumping off a bridge, stepping in front of a train, slashing their wrists in a warm lavender scented tub, or eating poison most people chicken out . There is kind of a hierarchy in suicide, and guns are the top of the heap.
    If Greg actually talked to mental health professionals, which I would highly recommend for a variety of reasons, he would probably know this. And Greg, I did not lie because I have consistently said, “gun deaths”, not “murders”.

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  47. videodrone Avatar
    videodrone

    Douglas 1134AM
    wow an EFR fan? few and far between these days!

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  48. Gregory Avatar

    There’s no correlation between suicide rates and gun availability by country; in fact, I recall both suicide rates and homicide rates being lower for Japanese immigrating to the USA, and while drawing too many inferences isn’t statistically appropriate, it does point in the opposite direction of what the Frischies of the world are trying to claim. If guns were the problem, you’d expect both to go up for a population moving from a gun free society to one where it’s quite easy (and, many would say, rightfully so) for a law abiding resident to obtain a firearm.
    In short, people, even if a gun isn’t available, someone who wants to off themselves will find a way. My friends would be just as dead had they used a gun and all those gun suicides would just be moved to a different column of the uniform crime statistics.

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  49. Russ Steele Avatar

    New York Newspaper Publishes an interactive map with the Names and Address of Gun Permit Holders, providing the thieves a list of address that they should not attempt to rob, thus identifying the undefended homes in New York that are now safe to rob. They also gave the addresses of abused women who have defensive weapons and are in hiding from the abusers. How many women and their may have to spend Christmas in a motel hiding.
    More HERE: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/12/24/Lohud-New-York-gun-permits
    I wonder how many teachers are on the list?

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