Rebane's Ruminations
December 2012
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“Passion governs.  And she never governs
wisely.”  Benjamin Franklin

George Rebane

The 14dec12 Newtown elementary school massacre again brings out all of our weaknesses as an ignorant and free people.  And the pandering politicians and public media are already at the trough, feeding on and encouraging every imaginable emotion that short circuits reason.  I want to take a look at the next collective calamity we are adding to the current pile within the Beltway.

The national debate on the massacre and reawakening of more gun controls is being repeated in an extended comment stream below ‘Ruminations – 14dec12 (updated)’.  Predictably, the arguments highlight the main polarities that today define and divide us.  The discussion herein will be limited to the reasoning processes that are fueling the forecasts of new public policies promised for the new year.

In the above referenced post a liberal commenter declared that the Newtown evil arose out of an inbred quality of American culture displayed most gruesomely in the 19th century massacres of American Indians during the nation’s westward movement.  His reasoning strongly concluded that Newtown’s mass deaths were of a piece with those inflicted on the Indians, and therefore give rise to modern day mass deaths in schools, theaters, malls, and other places where people are tightly packed.  His summa is that “a death is a death”, therefore they should all be considered of a feather.  Several other liberal commentators were quick to join their support to this deductive delusion.


If we take a deep breath, step back, and throw a critical brain cell on the matter, then we can quickly organize mass deaths into a layered structure or taxonomy, and organize them into six categories as follows (other taxonomical variants will equally serve my arguments).

Categorized Mass Deaths
1.    War – transnational (public policy)
2.    War – internecine (public policy)
2.1.    Civil (Russian 1918-23, Spanish 1935-39)
2.2.    Punitive (War between the states – punish South)
2.3.    Genocidal (USSR-Kulaks, Germany-Jews, China-intellectuals, Cambodia-?,19th century aboriginal massacres)
3.    Accidents
3.1.    Occupational (mine disaster)
3.2.    Recreational (Titanic)
3.3.    Medical (‘medical mistakes’)
3.4.    Infra-structure failure (bridge, building collapses)
3.5.    Technological (rogue versions of AI, nano-bots, genomic accident)
4.    Ideological (terror)
4.1.    Biological (plague)
4.2.    Blast (bombings, 9/11)
4.3.    Chemical (poisoning)
5.    Criminal
5.1.    Collateral (pursuant to other criminal objective)
5.2.    Murder (purposive targeted killing)
5.3.    Insanity (deranged shooter)
6.    Natural
6.1.    Black Swans – Storms, Floods, volcanoes, earthquakes, …

What is quickly apparent is that the Newtown shootings of the deranged criminal kind (see 5.3), and the 19th century Indian massacres that resulted from the execution of a deliberate and purposive public policy (see 2.3) are totally different and of a different kind.  And perusing the above outlined taxonomy, we see that mass deaths come from many sources, in many forms, and for many purposes – in short, if anything, a death is definitely not a death.

But none of this will provide a detour in the progressive mind’s established progress toward critical thought.  More rational thinkers quickly understand that if the objective of any debate today is to devise ways to prevent future mass deaths, then we must examine a wide range of very different public policies that are appropriate for each of the above listed subcategories.

And now we come to deciding what if anything should be done in response to Newtown.  Again, reason calls for first attempting to find what the causes of such a massacre were that can be expected to realize again in the future, and what interventions are possible.  This is no simple matter, and most certainly not found in the simplistic progressive propositions put forth under my previous post.  For a counter to this, I posit that simple causes satisfy simple minds, and that is again bearing fruit nationwide under our pandering political leadership – especially those promoting a greater social agenda.

News pours in by the hour of fresh proposals for more control of guns, especially those designated as “assault weapons”.  All of the proposals circumvent any attempt at an objective assessment of what happened, save the obvious evidence that 26 people were shot with a semi-automatic rifle after which the deranged shooter killed himself.  And that is all our progressive legislative mavens in Washington need to go forth and add yet another layer of gun control to the pile of unenforced gun laws already on the books.  Subsequently, more previously normal and everyday behaviors by law abiding citizens will be criminalized with no promise of solving the undefined problem leading to the Newtown massacre of innocents.

To put this into an even more focused perspective, every decision professional and the extensive multi-discipline literature counsel that ‘Fire!, Ready, Aim’ is not the rational approach to a decision, and following that path almost always leads to later disaster and collateral damage.  Such counsel is given to patients, clients, corporations, and legislatures by psychiatrists, psychologists, family counselors, lawyers, corporate consultants, and purveyors/practitioners of the more technical decision sciences (full disclosure – I was employed in and contributed to the latter two fields).

As examples, consider the ‘ban assault guns’ and enforcement of existing gun laws issues.  Assault gun is an emotional label fostered by the ignorant, the agenda driven ideologues, and the sensationalist media.  An assault gun is a weapon currently employed by the world’s militaries in the business of war.  ‘Currently employed’ is the operational phrase here.  Back during the American Revolution a smoothbore flintlock musket was an assault weapon, but quickly lost that qualification when percussion caps and mass-produced rifling were introduced.

We can continue that analysis with every new introduction of firearms technology over the last 200 years that made the individually carried weapon lighter, more deadly, more reliable, higher rate of fire, and more capacious so as to increase the combat load of ammunition a soldier could carry farther.  A case in point is that today no weapon can qualify as an assault gun that is also not fully automatic with a rapidly interchangeable, large capacity magazine (not clip).  The sale of assault weapons has been illegal in the US for more than 75 years.  Semi-automatic weapons simply no longer qualify as military assault guns, except in the proposals of emotion reliant demagogues.

And that brings us to the relatively recent revision of how we understand the Second Amendment.  The progressive, who sees a sane society as one that is essentially a toothless ward of the state, dependent on it for every benefit of life,  will insist that only government should possess guns.  The road to that enlightened state is through the continual injection into the public forum of thoughts like recently uttered by President Obama, that “no one needs an assault gun to go deer hunting”, thereby including two shibboleths in one tidy little homily.  Three generations today have not been taught what our Founders believed about the maintenance of liberty under governments that by their nature have the tendency to become tyrannical.  (My expanded thoughts on this are expounded under the introduced notion of Par Force.)

Finally we come to the enforcement of existing gun laws which fill reams in federal and state legal codes.  The conclusion, as recently reviewed by Robert Leider at the University of Pennsylvania School of Law, is that government’s record of enforcement is one of extensive delinquency, especially the important ones to prevent massacres like Newtown.  As examples, Leider points out that the states’ lack of reporting required of known mentally unfit persons led to two such multiple killings.  And the same delinquency very likely contributed to Newtown shooter Adam Lanza’s not being identified and logged as a “mental defective”, thereby bringing in other legal requirements for the possession and storage of guns at his residence.

However, what government does do well in this arena is to make difficult for legally competent citizens, and limit the acquisition and use of firearms which it considers can be used against its overreach of our freedoms.  A government that trusts its citizens would maximize the availability and prudent use of firearms in the land (e.g. Switzerland); a fearful government banish
es legal broad-based ownership of weapons that can approach par force with the local constabulary.

So in this environment of sustained quasi-hysteria, the nation goes forth to draft new laws supposed to prevent mass killings, whose causes are unknown, through politically propitious strictures whose only effects are to salve the irrational and temporary components of our media-fostered national grief.

[18dec12 update]  Expanding on reasonable responses to the killings, David Kopel, research director of the Independence Institute, wrote in the 18dec12 WSJ ‘Guns, Mental Illness and Newtown’.  In it he notes that “Today, Americans are safer from violent crime, including gun homicide, than they have been at any time since the mid-1960s.”, and relates these statistics to what laws were on the books when.  At the same time he notes the increase in mass shootings over the years, and it is these mass shootings that give rise to the stoked public hysteria we are witnessing today.

Nowhere are school children in greater danger from such mass killings than in Israel.  That country long ago adopted a sane policy of school security that includes firearms available to staff.  Marc Kahlberg gives an overview of that country’s approach in ‘Why there are no school shootings in Israel’.

[19dec12 update]  Dr E. Fuller Torrey and Doris A. Fuller of the Treatment Advocacy Center present a cogent case – ‘The Potential Killers We Let Loose’ – for reducing the likelihood of mass killings of the type that occurred in Newtown.  Their analysis reveals the role that observable yet untreated mental illness continues to play in such massacres.  Moreover, the roadblocks that our light thinking civil libertarians have placed in having such people treated has definitely been a contributing factor to these tragedies.  And it turns out that Connecticut happens to be “among the worst states” to permit early and effective treatment of the mentally ill.

[20dec12 update]  This morning President Obama called for rapid action – within the next 30 days – on new gun laws, citing the need for speed while public passions about the Newtown killings are still high.  Meanwhile his light thinking legions are telling everyone that the current legislative panic is based on reason – one local worthy even went so far as to declare “There is no emotional response here…no passion driven public policy…this is just another example in a long string of examples of why we need a new approach to gun regulation and public health.”  It seems that some progressive pikers are not listening very carefully to their thought leader.

What has yet to enter the national debate is a reasoned discussion of the 2nd Amendment’s purpose.  As all, save the statist progressives, know, our Founders were not silly enough enshrine the citizen’s ability to hunt deer in the Constitution.  History had already shown them the efficacy of an armed population in denying tyranny a foothold in the form of a crushing central government.  For that they established states’ rights as distinct “laboratories of freedom”, and made sure that guns would not be taken from the people, whether they belonged to the encouraged state militias or not.

This factor has seen little coverage in the growing debate.   But it is the prime factor for defending the maintenance of par force (q.v.) in the land, or as close to that as can reasonably be expected.   In the absence of such discussion we have seemingly reasonable people looking to stop Newtown like killings while agreeing that banning semi autos, magazine restrictions, and ammo permits seem like a reasonable step forward.  The question is ‘reasonable step forward to what?’

That this aspect of gun ownership seems to garner less and less coverage when gun control discussions come up – focusing instead on deer hunting, personal protection, and target shooting as the reason for having guns – is of more than passing interest.  For example, even a more conservative news outlet like Fox News still considers it prudent to be silent on the matter.  To me that appears like the progressives’ generations-long comprehensive embrace of government has won the day in the public media.  Moreover, the topic is also becoming a difficult one to raise on many blogs and the social media (e.g. consider its almost total absence in the comment threads that populate the comment stream of this posting).  It’s as if the Founders’ concerns are now far behind us.

ArmingSchools
[21dec12 update]  The NRA completed its deliberations on the Newtown killings and issued its considered recommendations (here).

The main being to have schools manned by armed guards as are other facilities – stadiums, airports, malls, … – where high densities of people congregate.  This is a half way step to the Israeli solution which has had an exemplary record of success in a much more dangerous environment.  NRA Executive VP Wayne LaPierre also recommended that governments at all levels begin enforcing existing laws and establish a long sought “robust National Instant Check System, used to perform background checks on would-be buyers at federally registered firearms dealers.”

These are policy responses which RR and many of its readers have backed over the years.

And as is typical with the growth of the nation’s lunatic leftwing, demonstrators were again in place attempting to disrupt the NRA’s presentation of its recommendations.  Against such useful idiots the nation remains defenseless.

[more]  We are constantly reminded of the stratospheric hypocrisy of the rabidly liberal media.  446 school aged children have been shot so far this year in Chicago, to the sounds of crickets from the lamestream.  (more here, and H/T to reader) They have been predominantly black and other minorities, but no one gives a shit – not their neighborhoods, not their community leaders, not the city’s leadership, not the state of Illinois, not the federal government, …, no one.  There is no outrage, no outcry, no demonstrations, no progressives lamenting the murder of innocents.

The sleazebag politicians don’t want to highlight this marathon of murder because they have no solutions and don’t want to draw attention to the desperate environments that government programs have created in the city.  And most certainly they don’t want to shine a light on the obvious truth that Chicago and Illinois have the most draconian and restrictive gun laws in the nation.  Instead, the progressives’ policy is to just let them quietly die year after year, and then make a big noise when white kids are killed in a rare event that suddenly needs all kinds of displayed hysteria to show proper concern, and remove more freedoms from the entire population.

Posted in , , , , ,

265 responses to “Fire!, Ready, Aim – Panic-driven Public Policy (updated 21dec12)”

  1. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Ryan, I am all for clarifying the second amendment–as I stated in the truncated quote Greg posted above–land yes, let’s do it through the Constitution. In the mean time, since a Constitutional amendment will take about 3-5 years let’s do what we can. If it takes 70 (or 30) years to get a majority of the un-necessary or illegal guns off the streets, well we have to start somewhere. If our rational for not beginning is that it will take time we will never get anywhere. Although I am very sensitive to the emotions and pain of the Sandy Hook shootings, the real goal should be to reduce the overall number of gun related deaths and injuries…the 30,000 are the big issue. And you are correct, horrors committed with weapons other than guns will continue, but the facts show that since 1982 there have been 61 mass shooting incidents; people need to dig into our history to find the few occasions that weapons other than guns were used to perpetrate these horrors. You have to admit that the 1927 Michigan school bombing and Oklahoma City bombing are pretty rare, harder to plan, harder to hide and harder to successfully execute than opening up with a Bushmaster. The point is to reduce the number and lethality of incidents. I find the whole “crazy people will find ways to kill” argument completely illogical. Of course they will, lets just not make it easier for them. By the way I am in full agreement with Russ that we need a multidisciplinary approach to reducing incidents like Sandy Hook (with the caveat that that only addresses one small part of the problem) –I simply reject the tactic of focusing on the other disciplines in order to minimize impacts on gun ownership–which is clearly what those who are proponents of gun rights want the public to do. You better believe that Wayne La Pierre is going to prefer mental health funding to restrictions on gun ownership. And I have ZERO confidence that our host, or his minions here, will ever agree to any reasonable restrictions–so we have to beat them at the polls, in the Congress and in the minds of the people if we want to see progress.

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  2. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Steve-
    Mass shooting in general are very rare. Here’s an manipulated Y Axis graph from Mother Jones.
    http://www.motherjones.com/files/annual-mass-shootings_0.png
    2002 and 2010 were “good” years. What happened then? Luck? Jesus? Lower humidity? Not enough Cheers re-runs? Assault weapons bans?
    But all this makes for sensational media copy. My only dog in this fight is making sure what we do really works and is congruent with the Constitution.
    I don’t particularly like guns. My ex wife used to keep a .38 under our bed before we had kids. When I was traveling to the UK on business, one of my Welsh friends proclaimed, “Ryan, if she needs to keep gun under the bed, you probably need to back off a bit.”

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  3. Ryan Mount Avatar

    I’m assuming everyone has who has a dog in the fight has read this. You probably should. If you’re too busy making money to pay taxes, the Abstract should suffice.
    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=272929
    Abstract:
    Few events obtain the same instant worldwide news coverage as multiple victim public shootings. These crimes allow us to study the alternative methods used to kill a large number of people (e.g., shootings versus bombings), marginal deterrence and the severity of the crime, substitutability of penalties, private versus public methods of deterrence and incapacitation, and whether attacks produce “copycats.” The criminals who commit these crimes are also fairly unusual, recent evidence suggests that about half of these criminals have received a “formal diagnosis of mental illness, often schizophrenia.” Yet, economists have not studied multiple victim shootings. Using data that extends until 1999 and includes the recent public school shootings, our results are surprising and dramatic. While arrest or conviction rates and the death penalty reduce “normal” murder rates and these attacks lead to new calls from more gun control, our results find that the only policy factor to have a consistently significant influence on multiple victim public shootings is the passage of concealed handgun laws. We explain why public shootings are more sensitive than other violent crimes to concealed handguns, why the laws reduce the number of shootings and have an even greater effect on their severity.

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  4. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    If laws worked….Why don’t we make it illegal to kill other people?

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  5. Gregory Avatar

    I heard economist John Lott make an interesting comment; these shootings in “gun free zones” only date from the 90’s because there were no “gun free zones” in the USA then. Permit holders could carry wherever they happened to go, and college students with guns weren’t forbidden by law from having them at school.
    It hasn’t been working well, has it?
    Passing a law criminalizing carrying a weapon at a school, or a mall, doesn’t mean homicidal sociopaths and other criminals won’t. At the moment, there are two kinds of gun free zones; pretend gun free zones and locked down gun free zones. If you want a real gun free zone, you’ll have to curb free access, and channel people through metal detectors, explosive sniffers or other detection equipment.
    Pretend gun free zones can be erected anywhere and any time at no cost besides a sign at the entrance. Feel better?
    What do we know now (or at least seem to know, it’s all still very up in the air) about the Connecticut massacre:
    1) the very troubled young man had problems for years;
    2) he spent almost all of his time isolated in his room playing video games and refused to get out and do things, or to think about a life outside of Mom’s house;
    3) his mom was frightened by more recent changes, and had been working to gain conservatorship in order to have him committed against his will;
    4) he had attended Sandy Hook as a child, and his mom had volunteered at the school last year with the kindergarden class, the 1st graders who were slaughtered last week;
    5) he was very upset about the prospect of being committed, shattered that his mom loved the school and those kids more than she loved him.
    6) the school was a virtual matriarchy, with all of the administration and virtually all teachers and professional staff being women. Only one man in 51, a fourth grade teacher, two men if you include the head custodian. Did he see it as a soft target, or just an object of hate?
    7) Had that Connecticut law making it easier to force psychiatric help on adults who didn’t want it been passed and signed into law last March, the now dead mom may have had a chance of getting help for her son who was in desperate need of it.
    Frisch, I didn’t give a link because you were being an ass, as guilty of dipping your hands into warm blood for political gain as your buddy Jeff. And I had no desire to drive more traffic to Jeff than I did; anyone who wanted to find it could have.
    I find it amazing how the rights of a few of the mentally ill that need help to refuse it seem to trump the rights of tens of millions of sane gun owners in the minds of the progressives.

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  6. Gregory Avatar

    “Let’s have a discussion if the shooting last week would have had far less fatalities if the types of guns available to the shooter would not have been semi automatic.”
    Set the Wayback Machine to the 1800’s, Paul. That’s when pistols and rifles started being sold to civilians, said by some to be as many as 80% as the guns being sold.
    OK, so let’s say the shooter had to use revolvers and shotguns. Estimate the carnage over the time the kid was shooting. Hint: just one shotgun blast with a hunting load would have torn multiple kids apart, and I think pumps tent to hold 10. Very effective, if what you want to to is shred little kids. Personally shotguns give me the willies, as accidents tend to be very nasty with body parts flying.
    I sometimes find Coulter to have an interesting take, and she does this time:
    http://www.humanevents.com/2012/12/19/ann-coulter-we-know-how-to-stop-school-shootings/

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  7. Gregory Avatar

    4:19 should have read, “That’s when semi-automatic pistols and rifles started being sold to civilians, said by some to be as many as 80% as the guns now being sold.”
    You see, Paul, demonizing semi-automatics is tantamount to demonizing most gun owners. And at least when I was an active target shooter, I found it much easier to be accurate with, say, a National Match Colt M1911 .45 pistol (yes, it’s been around for 101 years) than any revolver due to the basic physics of how the gun moves during recoil.

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  8. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    As tragic and sad as the killings of the children at Sandy Hook are, the reactions and opinions of a lot of American citizens worries me even more. First of all, the total scrutiny on fire arms is typical of the non-logical train of thought employed by people who will never learn from reality. Would it have been any less of a tragedy if they had been blown to bits or burned to death? If I wanted to kill a lot of children, there are dozens of ways to achieve that sick outcome. That “assault weapons” are the only way is ludicrous. Then I see that parents are worried sick about their little ones being the next victim of a mass shooting. But the most likely way of their little ones dying doesn’t even seem to register. If you wish safety for your child, then you should concern yourself with the most likely way of them being injured or killed. The best thing for the federal govt to do in the wake of the Conn shootings is nothing. I can’t count the number of times that I’ve heard politicians and citizens alike refer to “hunters’ rights”. There’s nothing in the Constitution about hunters’ rights. The right to keep and bear arms was explained in detail by supporting essays and letters by the folks that wrote the original words. The average citizen was to have the right to possess the same weaponry that a person in the military might have. This was so the govt would be kept in check by the citizens. The founding fathers were well aware of the technological advances in weapons over the centuries and certainly knew that far more advanced fire arms were sure to be produced. They wanted the citizens to have “killing machines”. The idea that they wouldn’t have wanted a private citizen to have a machine gun is nonsense. If Obama’s children are protected by machine guns, then everyone’s children should have the right to be protected by the same. Once again, we find the great divide in those that would surrender rights to the govt in exchange for less obligations vs those that accept and are willing to shoulder responsibilities to keep their rights. When the dust settles, we will have less liberty and not one ounce more of security.

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  9. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    ” guilty of dipping your hands into warm blood for political gain” ~Greg~ 20 December 2012 at 04:09 PM
    NRA has been gaming politicians and causing blood to run for quite some time now. The USA has had enough of this kind of scheming:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/atf-charged-with-regulating-guns-lacks-resources-and-leadership/2012/12/17/ef280abc-4877-11e2-b6f0-e851e741d196_story.html

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  10. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    “. Would it have been any less of a tragedy if they had been blown to bits or burned to death? If I wanted to kill a lot of children, there are dozens of ways to achieve that sick outcome. That “assault weapons” are the only way is ludicrous.”
    ~ Scott Obermuller | 20 December 2012 at 06:33 PM~
    As I said before a monkey with a gun can kill humans too. Now let’s do the experiment all together. There are three rooms, and you have to pick to go through one of them to survive. Each room contains a monkey. Monkey number one has a can of gas and a bunch of matches. Monkey #2 has a box of dynamite, and a pile of blasting caps. Monkey #3 has an AK47 thoroughly attached to his arm, and his finger is on the trigger. Which room will you choose to escape the NRA Dungeon? I’m sure Scott will pick #3, because it is so likely that #1 will immediately set the place on fire, and #2 will blow that room up, right?
    Other than your two examples McVeigh and the 1929 gun powder plot, how many other such cases can you come up with? Back in 1929, dynamite was much more available and common than it is today, with far fewer hoops to jump through.

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  11. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Keachie nails it again. I would put Greg in Room #3. After all he chose it. If dynamite plots were killing 30,000 people a year and wounding 70,000 more we would demand stricter controls on dynamite. Just makes sense.

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  12. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Excellent, gentlemen. You have both missed the point completely. Your “experiment” does not in any way invalidate the facts. When have monkeys ever become terrorists? The issue is the safety of children in classrooms. And if some one wants to harm them, all of the new laws being proposed will do nothing to make them any more safe. Can any of you contest this with facts and logic, or will you come up with another farcical hypothetical? As I recall, some Mohammedans used box cutters to kill more than 3K humans and last time I paid attention, box cutters were still on sale in stores. When was the last time some one waltzed into a legislative chamber and started spraying gunfire? What has prevented this? Are these offices of power “gun free zones”? Damn straight they are not. Pounding on the NRA might be an amusement for you, but it will do nothing to solve the problem. There have been several mass shootings in Europe in the last few years and these countries already have the same sort of laws and restrictions that are either already in place (Conn for one) or are being proposed. These laws clearly did nothing to stop the shootings in Europe, why will they do anything for the cause of safety here?

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  13. George Rebane Avatar

    Administrivia – Dear people, when you use HTML tags to italicize or make bold, please be sure that you delimit the end properly with forward slash / in front of the ‘i’ or ‘b’ that terminate your format changes. Typepad’s comment file handler has a habit of remembering these little tags, and will continue unterminated bolds and italics in all the following comments until they are terminated. (Then I have to go in, dig out the offending, comment, and correct it. Bah humbug!)

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  14. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Jesus Scott, are you just dense? (rhetorical question) If someone wants to speed no law is going to stop them, so lets eliminate speeding laws. If someone wants to rob a bank no law is going to stop them, so lets eliminate the law. What the hell is the point of law anyway? It is to set a common community standard. The whole point is that it is easier for monkeys to kill people with an AK than a crate of dynamite. It is about making it harder to kill. And no one here ever wants to address the rest of the issue…this is not just about schools. There have been 1000 deaths in mass shootings in the last 20 years, but 600,000 dead from gun violence.
    There is no reasoning with aNyone here, that is why what I said the other day is still the best solution….WE MUST CRUSH YOU IN CONGRESS AND TAKE WHAT YOU THINK ARE YOUR ‘RIGHTS’ AWAY FROM YOU.

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  15. George Rebane Avatar

    Re SteveF’s 847am – Yes, speeding, bank robbing, and other laws do maintain standards to the extent that the state decides to enforce at some uniform level. And so do existing gun laws, to the extent that the states enforce them. However, in the case of gun (and mental health) laws, the states continue to be lax to spotty in enforcing existing laws (Connecticut is a poster child here). The irrational and emotional response has always been to change nothing in enforcement, but with great ballyhoo add another layer of laws to mollify the stupid and mentally debilitated. It was ever thus.

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  16. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Nothing irrational about my response. Did you not note that I said above that enforcing existing laws may very well be a large part of the solution?
    I’m sure you and your friends will be the first to stand up and say “hurray, local, state and federal government are enforcing the gun laws”. Instead you will paint it as an intrusion into personal liberties and another example of the government grabbing too much power from the people. Not a few short months ago on these pages you were objecting to agencies taking the actions necessary to be able to enforce laws and implying we are becoming a fascist (socialist, communist) police state. So now you are going to stand up and say “enforce the law”?
    Yet above you are bemoaning enforcing currency laws…don’t you see the inherent inconsistency in your positions….

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  17. themikeymcd Avatar
    themikeymcd

    George, I feel another ‘liberal mind piece’ developing.
    Emotion is not reason.
    What liberals WANT to be true doesn’t make something true.
    Ignore history and the laws of economics at your own peril.
    The joys of bankrupt morally- Liberal bliss.
    Double Standards and Hypocrisy OH JOY!

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  18. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    The Frisch said
    “There is no reasoning with aNyone here, that is why what I said the other day is still the best solution….WE MUST CRUSH YOU IN CONGRESS AND TAKE WHAT YOU THINK ARE YOUR ‘RIGHTS’ AWAY FROM YOU.”
    I just love it when the mindless, childless, Godless liberals tell us the truth about themselves. What a hoot!

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  19. themikeymcd Avatar
    themikeymcd

    Liberal Vision- Looking for facts with your eyes closed
    Supply and Demand are no match for central planning
    “Governments used guns to kill” is so past tense
    Full List of successful government programs
    How taxing others helps the economy
    Government policies are only failing because they are not given enough time and money to succeed
    Governments stopped being tyrannical years ago

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  20. Ryan Mount Avatar

    George-
    Please accept my HTML goof. It was my fault. But then again, I kinda liked the BOLD. It was like more Cowbell, but the blog version.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjsUf_oIgp0
    Steve[n]-

    you and your friends will be the first to stand up and say “hurray, local, state and federal government are enforcing the gun laws”.
    Not sure George considers me a friend, especially after that last comment. And there’s the fact that he’s a beer drinker. So there’s that. Michael I believe considers me a friend, but then again I have a tendency to buy rounds for everyone after I’ve had a few Hendricks G&T.
    Anyhow, I would be thrilled if the government started enforcing the laws it’s currently not enforcing. I would buy a round or two in celebration. I would even by a round for Michael.

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  21. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Here is an Ann Coulter piece on guns and mass killings. Apparently Mother Jones did a crap lying piece and she gives us the true skinny.
    http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2012-12-19.html#read_more

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  22. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 905am – I’m afraid your claims of what I said need extensive citations from the record since you have demonstrated little understanding of my positions over the years, and have instead substituted your own versions and then vilified them. But with some that may serve to make your points.
    RyanM 1000am – no problem on the HTML goof, my friend. BTW, you have one of the more intriguing belief systems I have come across in the way you don’t hew to lockstep conservative or libertarian tenets. I am accused of suffering from the same syndrome (although not by progressives), even though our individual outlooks have some distinct differences. Keep them great comments and perspectives coming.

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  23. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    re: Steve’s last spittle spewing at 8:47. I did not advocate getting rid of any laws. I merely pointed out that the “solution” that the govt has planned in the form of new gun laws are in many cases already on the books in the states and countries in which there have been mass shootings. They have been proven worthless. Other new proposed laws such as taxes on guns and ammo will not stop a murderer. What do monkeys have to do with humans that wish to harm children? Your tirades about making it harder to kill are ridiculous. How much harder? Will they make it so difficult as to eliminate the reasonable ability of a human to commit mass murder? Armed guards have been proven as being the most effective tool to prevent mayhem. Instead, we brazenly brag about the fact that we have groups of small, defenceless children in rooms and buildings that have no security whatever. And we act shocked that a deranged maniac hits upon the brilliant idea that this would make a good target? I notice that the good folks that make our laws don’t have that sort of security arrangement. I have quietly posited that when the new gun related laws have been passed and the dust settles, the children in schools will be no safer than they are now. The chances of children in this country being visited by mayhem are so low as to not even be worth thinking about. On the other hand young children die every day from preventable causes. We would do well to address them as far far more lives would be saved as a result. Your last sentence speaks volumes as to what is really going on here. “WE MUST CRUSH YOU IN CONGRESS AND TAKE WHAT YOU THINK ARE YOUR ‘RIGHTS’ AWAY FROM YOU.” Please stop your pretence about childrens’ safety and come out of the fascist closet that you are hiding in.

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  24. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Wayne LaPierre of the NRA had a news conference to condemn the killings and the laced was jammed with hundreds of press goons. One liberal nut with a banner stood up and blocked the podium. His banner said Stop the NRA killing children or some such crap. Anyway, the press decided this one goof ball (was it Frich? maybe Pelline?) was the reason the press conference was held apparently. They all chased this nut for a pic and a story. LaPierre represents millions and his organization teaches kids gun responsibility but the “moron” press goons could care less. They just had to interview the nut. The state of the press is on display. Same with the local liberals. They are totally nuts.

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  25. Gregory Avatar

    Please note which folk have to invent a new reality to explain what they think the real one is doing.
    Monkey see, monkey do.

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  26. Ryan Mount Avatar

    The (more} pro regulation/outlawing crowd thinks of it like this:
    NRA –> Promotes Gun Liberalization –> Increases Gun stocks and availability –> doesn’t care if children get killed
    (this is quite similar to the irrational “the GOP likes rape” argument we heard in the past election cycle.
    What the NRA does is this:
    NRA –> Promotes Gun Liberalization, training and awareness as per the 2nd Amendment and the occasional inappropriate convention following a mass shooting.

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  27. themikeymcd Avatar
    themikeymcd

    Possible solution: Use Firefighters as ‘gatekeepers’ at schools.
    There are paid public assets literally just sitting in firehouse’s that could be trained in 2 days to deter psycho’s via sitting at schools.
    Too rational?

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  28. Gregory Avatar

    How about… an announced public school policy to have no fewer than 35% of the professional staff be men. Sandy Hook was 2%. And allow staff who have permits to carry to do so in accordance with a policy that spells out carry and storage requirements.
    Mikey, let firemen be firemen. They aren’t necessarily proficient in firearms handling, the law, or the needs of a school.

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  29. Paul Emery Avatar

    Sounds like government regulation to me. Do you propose this be federal, state or local jurisdiction to set and enforce these regs?

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  30. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, tell me something about public schools, run by government and paid for by taxes, that isn’t regulated by the government.
    Private schools don’t seem to have the same problems and so can and should figure it out for themselves. Also, the pretend gun free zones didn’t start until the Clinton administration; getting rid of that Federal law would allow the states the latitude they need to decide how to handle it.

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  31. themikeymcd Avatar
    themikeymcd

    This am I dropped my girls off at a school that was on lock down due to a threat. The school is within 3 miles of 2 firehouses fully ‘stocked’ with firemen who are literally just sitting waiting for a fire.
    Seems like their radios and eyes could be leveraged to protect the kiddos. No law, just fire chief’s with some common sense and a good hearts.

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  32. Ken Jones Avatar
    Ken Jones

    Gregory wrote: “Mikey, let firemen be firemen. They aren’t necessarily proficient in firearms handling, the law, or the needs of a school.”
    Yet you offer that teachers be armed? Because they are so proficient with firearms? Or least male teachers. The teacher would be more proficient in the needs of a school, but without a doubt would be less proficient in law or use of a firearm. Gregory let teachers be teachers.

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  33. Gregory Avatar

    Ken, teachers are still people, and no one I know of wants to assign any particular teacher carry a gun. Just allow the teachers and staff who want to accept all of the responsibility it entails, and have jumped through all the hoops to carry, to carry. Is that so hard a concept?
    Having yet another non instructional person to sit and and do nothing somehow just doesn’t seem to be a good use of anyone’s time or money. Nor does trying to disarm the American public, most of whom seem to think they have some sort of a constitutional right to have what they got, with the SCOTUS agreeing.

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  34. Gregory Avatar

    Mikey, a fireman waiting for a fire isn’t doing nothing. Maintenance and training comes to mind. Rest, too.

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  35. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    I like Mikey’s idea. Many firemen are menor women mustered from the military. They already know how to use a weapon. They could rotate in to the schools in their areas. Excellent!

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  36. themikeymcd Avatar
    themikeymcd

    Gregory, I agree to disagree. Mr. Jones already pointed at the holes in your logic.
    99% of a firefighter’s day/night is sitting or making themselves look busy (just ask an honest fireman). There’s a reason why volunteer firehouses were all we ever needed (before lobbyists/unions/special interests).

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  37. Gregory Avatar

    And this is for Ken Jones, the only mental health professional that seems to be hanging out here…
    Sandy Hook School’s staff, outside of the janitors, was 98% female. Do you think that a disarmed group of women, and the little children they had in their charge, would be a factor in the thinking of a deranged young man who had just pumped four rounds into the head of his sleeping mother as he decided where to go next?

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  38. Russ Steele Avatar

    Toughest Gun Laws Did NOT Help 446 Chicago Children in 2012.
    “The cesspool known as Chicago probably has the toughest gun laws in the country, yet despite all the shootings, murders, and bloodshed, you never hear a peep about this from the corrupt state run media. In Chicago, there have been 446 school age children shot in leftist utopia run by Rahm Emanuel and that produced Obama, Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, etc. 62 school aged children have actually been killed by crazed nuts in Chicago so far this year with almost two weeks to go. So why isn’t this news worthy? Is it because it would embarrass those anti second amendment nuts who brag about Chicago’s tough gun laws? Is it because most of the kids who were shot and killed were minorities? Or is it because the corrupt media doesn’t want to show Chicago in a bad light? Amazingly, no Obama crocodile tears either.”
    “For those of you too dense to get the point of this post, it’s to make the point about gun laws. No matter how tough the gun laws are, the crazed, nut jobs will find a way to get them and if they so chose, use them. No draconian law can stop this, no matter how well intentioned the law is, or if it’s just about leftists grabbing power from citizens and taking away their constitutional rights.”
    Details HERE.

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  39. George Rebane Avatar

    Re armed response in schools. My own preference is to appeal to the millions of citizens with CCW permits – the legal guns in the land. Sufficient numbers of these people – all of them are trained in the use of their firearms and many of them are retired – would volunteer for school security duty in a heartbeat. To qualify, they would receive appropriate additional training to serve their function as a known and interdicting armed presence in school facilities. After all, their main job is to confront the gunman and either delay or kill him (or die trying) while the police are on their way. It is already the moral obligation of every legal CCW carrier to attempt to halt ongoing (not anticipative) murder and/or mayhem in his presence – the states’ laws already provide for such intervention. Finally, I can envision the local constabulary setting up and maintaining such school security ‘duty rosters’ that allow members of a community to guard their own children. I believe that such a program would work and be very cost effective.
    (Also see latest update to post on Chicago killings.)

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  40. Gregory Avatar

    The more you have firemen do that isn’t fire related, the longer the response to any fire alarm.
    The middle school principal I worked for in the 70’s flew combat missions as the captain of a B-25, carrying a pistol. Think he’d have been trustworthy enough?

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  41. Jesus Betterman Avatar

    “As I recall, some Mohammedans used box cutters to kill more than 3K humans and last time I paid attention, box cutters were still on sale in stores.”
    ~Scott~
    And of course, Scott, it is still legal to carry them on airliners, and the doors to the pilots’ compartment is just as it was in the 1960’s.
    What’s with all the sexism about men and guns in the classroom?
    And finally, you gonna go to an inner city high school packing heat? This is so funny. You’d be dead in an alley in nothing flat, as soon as the students became aware that you might even have the right to do so, as “such easy pickings” for gang members.
    “And, another one bites the dust”
    Or in the nice suburban school, when an angry parent shows up and decides you are fair game for something you supposedly did to his kid. Those of you who don’t teach, it’s a good thing, because you are totally clueless as to the realities of teaching today.
    Gated schools with controlled entry points would be the safest and least expensive in the long run. Good shovel ready program, too.

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  42. Jesus Betterman Avatar

    Gibven the amount of planning, George, that goes into these attacks, don’t you think the perps would scope out a lone defender and take him out first?
    BTW just how many folks have CCW’s anyway? Millions? news to me, and I thought most had high profile jobs, and thus would not be available?

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  43. Gregory Avatar

    There’s a million CCW permits in Florida alone, if you believe NPR, reporting that this morning.
    Everyone in Vermont, Alaska and Arizona who is an adult who can legally possess handguns can carry concealed without a permit.
    There are a number of states who have “shall issue” laws: if you take the course, pass the test and background check, you will be issued the permit. Then there are states like Illinois or California where it’s at the whim of bureaucrats in your state or locale based on what you say your reason is and whether you’ve donated to the right campaigns. It helps to be living in the right place or have friends in high places.
    It’s unclear to me, with the Gun Free Zone around schools as defined in criminal law, whether anyone can even drive up to my house with a gun in the car because they have to pass within about 40 feet of a school to do so. Wow, I’m living in a gun free zone! I’m SAFE!

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  44. Russ Steele Avatar

    Where is the outrage about the brown and black childen killed in Chicago? Where are the church bells for these kids? Where are the press with tears while reporting on the funerals? The left is the largest group of hypocrites, white kids get tears and and demands for action the black and brown kids get the . . . .

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  45. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    re: Doug at 1:30 – are you lefties trying to miss the point on purpose, or is the Christmas Cheer starting to flow already? I’ll break it down so the light thinkers can follow. The components are: the crime, the perpetrator, the weapon, the location, the motive, etc. In the case of our friends from the ‘religion of peace’, the crime was the murder of over 3K Americans. The weapon was box cutters. After that tragedy, did anyone think we should ban the weapon? Why is this the case now? The solution to the airliners being hijacked was a change in procedures, including allowing the arming of the pilots and having armed marshals on random flights. Now that the NRA has suggested having armed guards at the schools, the left has gone nuts. Typical was the reaction by Bob B on ‘The Five’. He thought it was insane to suggest that having more guns present would help. Notwithstanding the fact that police arriving with guns was what stopped the carnage. Having the guns there (in the hands of the good guys) before hand would have prevented the slaughter, but no, we have to have another tragedy to take advantage of in order to advance the cause of the fascist left. There doesn’t seem to be much point in discussing this any further, since we clearly see that the left really isn’t concerned with childrens’ safety. The answer to everything from the left is less Constitutional freedom and more govt power over the citizens.

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  46. George Rebane Avatar

    ScottO 641pm – don’t see how you could have made it more clear. And the saving of kids’ lives does not seem to be the main concern here, as we witness in other states/cities where gun laws already disarm the law abiding population.

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  47. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Scott, more junk in the air, and the 9/11 terrorists did not do the deed with an Oddjob tophat with a razor edge, they did the job with a pair of airliners. I don’t think you realize how large the school population is, and how spread out most campuses are:
    ” Demographic Characteristics
    Among full-time and part-time public school teachers in 2007–08, some 76 percent of public school teachers were female, 44 percent were under age 40, and 52 percent had a master’s or higher degree. Compared with public school teachers, a lower percentage of private school teachers were female (74 percent), were under age 40 (39 percent), and had a master’s or higher degree (38 percent).
    In addition, among both males and females, 83 percent of public school teachers were White, 7 percent each were Black or Hispanic, 1 percent each were Asian or of two or more races, and less than one percent each were Pacific Islander or American Indian/Alaska Native in 2007–08.
    Source: http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=28
    In addition you have c. 98,000 public schools, c. 33,000 private schools, and 6700 institutions of higher ed.
    Source: http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=84
    So, one cop per school would be roughly 137,000 additional cops, if one cop per school was enough. Assuming worst case scenario, how long does it take a very healthy cop to run from the main office to the library at NU? Do you suppose the med student who did the Aurora cinemas, wouldn’t have had the brains to set up a diversion at the oppposite end of a campus, if that was his target?
    If I’m not mistaken, that number 137,000 would be about one quarter the total number of folks in all our armed forces, no? How much is that going to cost? Will you pay those taxes?
    BTW, Steele yammers on about the Chicago school age kids, but does not admit how many of those killings take place, OFF CAMPUS? How about digging up the on campus killing stats, before you continue your streak of erroneous comparisons. And how many of those are not stranger killings, like our mass murderers? So much for the NRA’s Pierre LaPheweu’s plan for our schools. It stinks, and you’d never pay for it.

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  48. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    I think Greg is counting home schools.

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  49. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Russ-
    Non-white, non-suburban kids, as do Pakistani and Yemeni children don’t make for sensational copy. (There are some on the Left who have noticed this. Ben Emery has been rather vocal about this obvious hypocrisy.) Our mainstream media is more of a propaganda and ad revenue machine, ain’t it? Just like with other recent tragedies, the airwaves and internets were flooded with things like insurance ads. Talk about not letting a tragedy go to waste.
    Scott-
    Excellent point regarding the human refuse who hijacked the 9/11 planes.
    Doug-
    You have more guns than me, but I betcha I have more gin. A friend of mine observed that most of these massacres, at least the ones that garner our attention, are in relatively privileged environments. She asked me a poignant rhetorical question: “why aren’t there mass shootings in inner city schools?”

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  50. Ryan Mount Avatar

    I think the NRA’s “put a cop in every school” is untenable mostly for the exact same reason banning weapons is a non-starter: it’s not going to have any effect on school safety.
    Doug’s right on this one, but in defense of the NRA, they mean well. A cop on campus is probably not going to be effective. But then again, we have to remember that these attacks are very rare. On any given day, our children are exponentially more at risk in the car ride home, than from a school shooting.

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