Rebane's Ruminations
December 2012
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“Passion governs.  And she never governs
wisely.”  Benjamin Franklin

George Rebane

The 14dec12 Newtown elementary school massacre again brings out all of our weaknesses as an ignorant and free people.  And the pandering politicians and public media are already at the trough, feeding on and encouraging every imaginable emotion that short circuits reason.  I want to take a look at the next collective calamity we are adding to the current pile within the Beltway.

The national debate on the massacre and reawakening of more gun controls is being repeated in an extended comment stream below ‘Ruminations – 14dec12 (updated)’.  Predictably, the arguments highlight the main polarities that today define and divide us.  The discussion herein will be limited to the reasoning processes that are fueling the forecasts of new public policies promised for the new year.

In the above referenced post a liberal commenter declared that the Newtown evil arose out of an inbred quality of American culture displayed most gruesomely in the 19th century massacres of American Indians during the nation’s westward movement.  His reasoning strongly concluded that Newtown’s mass deaths were of a piece with those inflicted on the Indians, and therefore give rise to modern day mass deaths in schools, theaters, malls, and other places where people are tightly packed.  His summa is that “a death is a death”, therefore they should all be considered of a feather.  Several other liberal commentators were quick to join their support to this deductive delusion.


If we take a deep breath, step back, and throw a critical brain cell on the matter, then we can quickly organize mass deaths into a layered structure or taxonomy, and organize them into six categories as follows (other taxonomical variants will equally serve my arguments).

Categorized Mass Deaths
1.    War – transnational (public policy)
2.    War – internecine (public policy)
2.1.    Civil (Russian 1918-23, Spanish 1935-39)
2.2.    Punitive (War between the states – punish South)
2.3.    Genocidal (USSR-Kulaks, Germany-Jews, China-intellectuals, Cambodia-?,19th century aboriginal massacres)
3.    Accidents
3.1.    Occupational (mine disaster)
3.2.    Recreational (Titanic)
3.3.    Medical (‘medical mistakes’)
3.4.    Infra-structure failure (bridge, building collapses)
3.5.    Technological (rogue versions of AI, nano-bots, genomic accident)
4.    Ideological (terror)
4.1.    Biological (plague)
4.2.    Blast (bombings, 9/11)
4.3.    Chemical (poisoning)
5.    Criminal
5.1.    Collateral (pursuant to other criminal objective)
5.2.    Murder (purposive targeted killing)
5.3.    Insanity (deranged shooter)
6.    Natural
6.1.    Black Swans – Storms, Floods, volcanoes, earthquakes, …

What is quickly apparent is that the Newtown shootings of the deranged criminal kind (see 5.3), and the 19th century Indian massacres that resulted from the execution of a deliberate and purposive public policy (see 2.3) are totally different and of a different kind.  And perusing the above outlined taxonomy, we see that mass deaths come from many sources, in many forms, and for many purposes – in short, if anything, a death is definitely not a death.

But none of this will provide a detour in the progressive mind’s established progress toward critical thought.  More rational thinkers quickly understand that if the objective of any debate today is to devise ways to prevent future mass deaths, then we must examine a wide range of very different public policies that are appropriate for each of the above listed subcategories.

And now we come to deciding what if anything should be done in response to Newtown.  Again, reason calls for first attempting to find what the causes of such a massacre were that can be expected to realize again in the future, and what interventions are possible.  This is no simple matter, and most certainly not found in the simplistic progressive propositions put forth under my previous post.  For a counter to this, I posit that simple causes satisfy simple minds, and that is again bearing fruit nationwide under our pandering political leadership – especially those promoting a greater social agenda.

News pours in by the hour of fresh proposals for more control of guns, especially those designated as “assault weapons”.  All of the proposals circumvent any attempt at an objective assessment of what happened, save the obvious evidence that 26 people were shot with a semi-automatic rifle after which the deranged shooter killed himself.  And that is all our progressive legislative mavens in Washington need to go forth and add yet another layer of gun control to the pile of unenforced gun laws already on the books.  Subsequently, more previously normal and everyday behaviors by law abiding citizens will be criminalized with no promise of solving the undefined problem leading to the Newtown massacre of innocents.

To put this into an even more focused perspective, every decision professional and the extensive multi-discipline literature counsel that ‘Fire!, Ready, Aim’ is not the rational approach to a decision, and following that path almost always leads to later disaster and collateral damage.  Such counsel is given to patients, clients, corporations, and legislatures by psychiatrists, psychologists, family counselors, lawyers, corporate consultants, and purveyors/practitioners of the more technical decision sciences (full disclosure – I was employed in and contributed to the latter two fields).

As examples, consider the ‘ban assault guns’ and enforcement of existing gun laws issues.  Assault gun is an emotional label fostered by the ignorant, the agenda driven ideologues, and the sensationalist media.  An assault gun is a weapon currently employed by the world’s militaries in the business of war.  ‘Currently employed’ is the operational phrase here.  Back during the American Revolution a smoothbore flintlock musket was an assault weapon, but quickly lost that qualification when percussion caps and mass-produced rifling were introduced.

We can continue that analysis with every new introduction of firearms technology over the last 200 years that made the individually carried weapon lighter, more deadly, more reliable, higher rate of fire, and more capacious so as to increase the combat load of ammunition a soldier could carry farther.  A case in point is that today no weapon can qualify as an assault gun that is also not fully automatic with a rapidly interchangeable, large capacity magazine (not clip).  The sale of assault weapons has been illegal in the US for more than 75 years.  Semi-automatic weapons simply no longer qualify as military assault guns, except in the proposals of emotion reliant demagogues.

And that brings us to the relatively recent revision of how we understand the Second Amendment.  The progressive, who sees a sane society as one that is essentially a toothless ward of the state, dependent on it for every benefit of life,  will insist that only government should possess guns.  The road to that enlightened state is through the continual injection into the public forum of thoughts like recently uttered by President Obama, that “no one needs an assault gun to go deer hunting”, thereby including two shibboleths in one tidy little homily.  Three generations today have not been taught what our Founders believed about the maintenance of liberty under governments that by their nature have the tendency to become tyrannical.  (My expanded thoughts on this are expounded under the introduced notion of Par Force.)

Finally we come to the enforcement of existing gun laws which fill reams in federal and state legal codes.  The conclusion, as recently reviewed by Robert Leider at the University of Pennsylvania School of Law, is that government’s record of enforcement is one of extensive delinquency, especially the important ones to prevent massacres like Newtown.  As examples, Leider points out that the states’ lack of reporting required of known mentally unfit persons led to two such multiple killings.  And the same delinquency very likely contributed to Newtown shooter Adam Lanza’s not being identified and logged as a “mental defective”, thereby bringing in other legal requirements for the possession and storage of guns at his residence.

However, what government does do well in this arena is to make difficult for legally competent citizens, and limit the acquisition and use of firearms which it considers can be used against its overreach of our freedoms.  A government that trusts its citizens would maximize the availability and prudent use of firearms in the land (e.g. Switzerland); a fearful government banish
es legal broad-based ownership of weapons that can approach par force with the local constabulary.

So in this environment of sustained quasi-hysteria, the nation goes forth to draft new laws supposed to prevent mass killings, whose causes are unknown, through politically propitious strictures whose only effects are to salve the irrational and temporary components of our media-fostered national grief.

[18dec12 update]  Expanding on reasonable responses to the killings, David Kopel, research director of the Independence Institute, wrote in the 18dec12 WSJ ‘Guns, Mental Illness and Newtown’.  In it he notes that “Today, Americans are safer from violent crime, including gun homicide, than they have been at any time since the mid-1960s.”, and relates these statistics to what laws were on the books when.  At the same time he notes the increase in mass shootings over the years, and it is these mass shootings that give rise to the stoked public hysteria we are witnessing today.

Nowhere are school children in greater danger from such mass killings than in Israel.  That country long ago adopted a sane policy of school security that includes firearms available to staff.  Marc Kahlberg gives an overview of that country’s approach in ‘Why there are no school shootings in Israel’.

[19dec12 update]  Dr E. Fuller Torrey and Doris A. Fuller of the Treatment Advocacy Center present a cogent case – ‘The Potential Killers We Let Loose’ – for reducing the likelihood of mass killings of the type that occurred in Newtown.  Their analysis reveals the role that observable yet untreated mental illness continues to play in such massacres.  Moreover, the roadblocks that our light thinking civil libertarians have placed in having such people treated has definitely been a contributing factor to these tragedies.  And it turns out that Connecticut happens to be “among the worst states” to permit early and effective treatment of the mentally ill.

[20dec12 update]  This morning President Obama called for rapid action – within the next 30 days – on new gun laws, citing the need for speed while public passions about the Newtown killings are still high.  Meanwhile his light thinking legions are telling everyone that the current legislative panic is based on reason – one local worthy even went so far as to declare “There is no emotional response here…no passion driven public policy…this is just another example in a long string of examples of why we need a new approach to gun regulation and public health.”  It seems that some progressive pikers are not listening very carefully to their thought leader.

What has yet to enter the national debate is a reasoned discussion of the 2nd Amendment’s purpose.  As all, save the statist progressives, know, our Founders were not silly enough enshrine the citizen’s ability to hunt deer in the Constitution.  History had already shown them the efficacy of an armed population in denying tyranny a foothold in the form of a crushing central government.  For that they established states’ rights as distinct “laboratories of freedom”, and made sure that guns would not be taken from the people, whether they belonged to the encouraged state militias or not.

This factor has seen little coverage in the growing debate.   But it is the prime factor for defending the maintenance of par force (q.v.) in the land, or as close to that as can reasonably be expected.   In the absence of such discussion we have seemingly reasonable people looking to stop Newtown like killings while agreeing that banning semi autos, magazine restrictions, and ammo permits seem like a reasonable step forward.  The question is ‘reasonable step forward to what?’

That this aspect of gun ownership seems to garner less and less coverage when gun control discussions come up – focusing instead on deer hunting, personal protection, and target shooting as the reason for having guns – is of more than passing interest.  For example, even a more conservative news outlet like Fox News still considers it prudent to be silent on the matter.  To me that appears like the progressives’ generations-long comprehensive embrace of government has won the day in the public media.  Moreover, the topic is also becoming a difficult one to raise on many blogs and the social media (e.g. consider its almost total absence in the comment threads that populate the comment stream of this posting).  It’s as if the Founders’ concerns are now far behind us.

ArmingSchools
[21dec12 update]  The NRA completed its deliberations on the Newtown killings and issued its considered recommendations (here).

The main being to have schools manned by armed guards as are other facilities – stadiums, airports, malls, … – where high densities of people congregate.  This is a half way step to the Israeli solution which has had an exemplary record of success in a much more dangerous environment.  NRA Executive VP Wayne LaPierre also recommended that governments at all levels begin enforcing existing laws and establish a long sought “robust National Instant Check System, used to perform background checks on would-be buyers at federally registered firearms dealers.”

These are policy responses which RR and many of its readers have backed over the years.

And as is typical with the growth of the nation’s lunatic leftwing, demonstrators were again in place attempting to disrupt the NRA’s presentation of its recommendations.  Against such useful idiots the nation remains defenseless.

[more]  We are constantly reminded of the stratospheric hypocrisy of the rabidly liberal media.  446 school aged children have been shot so far this year in Chicago, to the sounds of crickets from the lamestream.  (more here, and H/T to reader) They have been predominantly black and other minorities, but no one gives a shit – not their neighborhoods, not their community leaders, not the city’s leadership, not the state of Illinois, not the federal government, …, no one.  There is no outrage, no outcry, no demonstrations, no progressives lamenting the murder of innocents.

The sleazebag politicians don’t want to highlight this marathon of murder because they have no solutions and don’t want to draw attention to the desperate environments that government programs have created in the city.  And most certainly they don’t want to shine a light on the obvious truth that Chicago and Illinois have the most draconian and restrictive gun laws in the nation.  Instead, the progressives’ policy is to just let them quietly die year after year, and then make a big noise when white kids are killed in a rare event that suddenly needs all kinds of displayed hysteria to show proper concern, and remove more freedoms from the entire population.

Posted in , , , , ,

265 responses to “Fire!, Ready, Aim – Panic-driven Public Policy (updated 21dec12)”

  1. Paul Emery Avatar

    Ryan, Mikey, George
    Somehow I have n problem having a respectful conversation with you no matter how different our views may be. Let’s keep up the dialogue. You know what? We actually agree sometimes.

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  2. Paul Emery Avatar

    that’s “no problem”

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  3. Ryan Mount Avatar

    However, I believe that the amount of high caliber guns in circulation make such a goal unattainable.
    That’s pretty much my position.
    I am more worried about protecting myself against ‘my’ government than I am about protecting myself against solo lunatics.
    And that as well. Except I’ll use a baseball bat and sarcasm. Government workers hate sarcasm. Try my theory out next time you’re at the DMV. Good Times, Noodle Salad.
    I do want to recognize Paul’s Emery’s genuine true aim. He’s one of the good guys.

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  4. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    I can agree with you that there should be some kind of armed security at schools. Probably should be a staff position and someone who would be trained and available. Most likely it should be part of the County or City police jurisdiction and funded through their budget. Yes, it would cost money but may be justified.

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  5. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    OK folks – I know everyone is having a lot of fun here, but it would do you a world of good to hie on over to Daily Kos, Ed Shultz, various ties to news articles on the actual plans by the powers-that-be and so forth. In other words, while we go on and on as to whether tis nobler to die by 9mm, nitrate fulminations, petrol bombs, black powder pistol or the town drunk (and the difference in joy by the surviving parents) – pay attention now: Washington Has Plans! Yessiree. Foremost on the list – ASSAULT WEAPONS BANS! That’s right – we don’t know what they are, but they apparently are the main problem and we are going to “ban” them. Details will follow much later. Then there is the dreaded “GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE”. It doesn’t seem to have any bearing on the issue at hand, but by golly, as long as we think we can roll the House, let’s go for it! The closet fascists are coming out now and hey are they informative. That Bill Of Rights seems to be another problem child that we might be able to do away with while we’re at it.
    Part of the “package” will involve mental health issues. Look for a new cabinet position and and multi-ten thousand strong new bureaucracy. There is hardly an issue of importance you can name that Washington hasn’t solved by throwing trillions at. Oh – what fun! And if any R doesn’t kow tow in a heart beat…. well, that means he or she WANTS children to die! I mean by gun shot as opposed to starving or disease which we’ve already pointed out they want. Life in America. Devoid of reason and proud of it!

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  6. George Rebane Avatar

    ** No doubt fewer lives would have been lost had the firearm been less capable, that’s not a theory but an existential fact – start with a muzzle loading 22, then a single shot bolt action 22, then a …, and work your way up on the number killed scale.
    ** The notion that just because government has combat fighting vehicles to assault its citizens is NOT a reason to either cave on keeping as much legal firepower as possible in civilian hands, or give up any potential fight against tyranny. Uprisings are spontaneous and take their own direction where many types of armaments can and do change hands. Take Syria as just one example.
    However, a totally disarmed public will have the examples of the USSR, Cambodia, Red China, … to uninspire them.

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  7. Gregory Avatar

    “Let’s have a discussion if the shooting last week would have had far less fatalities if the types of guns available to the shooter would not have been semi automatic.”
    Paul, a pump 12 gauge shotgun would have been even more devastating. Very nasty.
    When the targets are little kids, it really doesn’t matter what the gun is. The carnage will continue until ethical citizens with guns show up.
    By now, you may have seen the latest reports… the shooter knew his mom was proceeding with legal machinations to get him committed. He had attended that school as a child, and his mom had worked in the school the year before with kindergarteners. He was apparently upset that Mom loved the school and those kids more than she loved him. He also knew the principal and the school shrink, among the dead, along with last year’s kindergartners,
    The moral of the story would seem to be that, if you have a family member who needs to be committed, take care.

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  8. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    I disagree about the 12 gauge pump. It would have had to be reloaded after just a few shots which would have taken time. This is what we know about the number of shots fired. It was well over 100 for sure.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/nyregion/sandy-hook-school-shooting-in-newtown.html?_r=0
    “While Lieutenant Vance said he did not yet know how many bullets had been fired, he did say investigators recovered “numerous” empty 30-round magazines for the Bushmaster rifle. The .223-caliber bullet is a small, high-velocity round that has been used by Western military forces for decades, in part because it inflicts devastating wounds.”

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  9. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    I had a long relationship with a woman with a schizophrenic son and it’s very difficult situation. After several attempts to live at home (my home) institutionalization was the only option and she accepted that. The fact is that until a crime actually occurs there is nothing that can be done without parental consent and that’s probably as it should be, otherwise we have cops with white coats and straight jackets nabbing whoever they think is weird. This is very difficult stuff. Many times (but not in this instance) the family member is the last to accept it. I don’t know all the details but in my view the mother was an unintentional accomplice if she, knowing her son was mentally unstable, allowed him easy access to guns and ammunition and assisted in teaching him how to use them.

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  10. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    I think there is a huge middle ground here. Something we can all agree upon. We have indeed reached a tipping point.
    1. Registration is key, which then requires responsibility. Today we are learning that mom Lanza was getting ready to commit her favorite son, but for some odd reason she did not secure her copious weapons. Why was that? It seems odd to me.
    2. You get to own big magazines, based upon your big magazine worthiness, just like people who operate big digging machines and have to test for multiple licenses. Why is this different? Ten bullets per magazine for the simple folk; anything above that, prove your worthiness.
    3. Work really really hard at defining these disaffected young men, many of them suffering from some sort of mental affliction. Isolate them, or inculcate them, or toss them aside…but at least do something!
    4. Anyone in proximity to these young men must be hyper-aware regarding guns and other means of destruction that they have in their homes and businesses.
    This is not rocket science. We can solve this problem. And we must…
    Michael A.

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  11. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    There is evil in the world an it really has no middle ground with “good”.

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  12. Jesus Betterman Avatar

    And Todd, with his heels dug in, begins to do the NRA cha-cha, to which I say:
    We can consider the pile we have already by adding in forfeiture of any property on which an unregistered gun is found to the victims fund. How do you like that? That would include cars, boats, and parcels. If it is the tenant’s fault, then a simple $1,000 fine will do. simple simple, well thought out, and certainly going somewhere. The guns found are forfeit in any case, and will be either melted down or put up for sale, under the new rules.
    or maybe you’d prefer I just stick to new gun sales?

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  13. George Rebane Avatar

    Good comments and ground to work on from PaulE’s 905pm and MichaelA’s 949pm. I believe that more useful facts and data will be discovered as the investigation continues, but we already know that there were several lapses of prudence in the Lanza family. Useful (and incriminatory) would be a simple listing of existing and Newtown related gun laws along with how they are/aren’t being currently enforced. That would be an eye opener.
    In the meanwhile, as you listen to the Beltway blather, recall the topic and title here, ‘Fire!, Ready, Aim – Panic Driven Public Policy’. During my lifetime, the more I have witnessed and studied Congress, the more confirmation rolls in that they make up their minds in back rooms based ONLY on political considerations, and then (if we’re lucky) hold some hearings that are designed as best as can to support their made up minds. Today’s hyper-ventilations may set a high water mark here.

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  14. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    Remember Drew Reynolds?
    You don’t need a gun to create mayhem and ruin lives.

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  15. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Most illegal firearms, when I last looked at this a while ago, are purchased like illegal liquor is purchase. They’re typically purchased by someone who can legally purchase the weapon, who then gives it to a minor/criminal/etc. I believe these are called “straw purchases” by police. Stealing a weapon is a very difficult way to get them because the vast majority of owners are very careful with them. And frankly, most criminals aren’t willing to break into a house if the the owner is armed. Duh.
    Stolen weapons used in the conduct of a crime, if I recall, account for a relatively small portion of them. I think it’s like 10%. Maybe more. I’ll look that up a little later. Like I said, it’s been a while since I looked into it. But feel free to google any of it.
    Makes complete sense when you think about it. And it should sound familiar.
    I think the next source of illegal gun ownership actually comes from legal gun sellers who sell to, say felons. Money talks as they say. Although it has become harder due to required background checks. Anyone can become a FFL:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License
    But again, criminals don’t care. That would include criminal gun selling activity.

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  16. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Remember Drew Reynolds?
    And Timothy McVeigh?

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  17. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    Steal a truck, or rent a Ryder truck.
    Buy some diesel and some fertilizer.
    No 5 day waiting period.

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  18. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Thanks, Ryan, for illustrating the logic of my system of having guns shown once a year for the first five years of ownership. If you stand to lose a grand, because you choose to sell one illegally, you’ll just have to add that onto the price to the illegal purchaser, thus making the circulation of Black Market guns way more sluggish. Sluggery results in less thuggery and muggery.
    And thinking about it, on the notion that those who can, will find a way:
    Yup they will, and that why our armed forces are armed with thing that are not fully automatic rifles. We prefer knives and pitchforks, big rocks, shards of glass, etc.
    And the funny thing is, fully auto makes sense on the battle field, because, unless you are being flanked, you are shooting most likely at a target directly in front of you. Sending maxium firepower nearly instantly in that direction is a good idea. This contrasts with the field of fire that a mass murderer face. His targets are typically all over the place in front of him, and unarmed. Having a weapon that can easily empty itself with an accidental long pull is not desirable. Having a semi-auto is actually a better choice. Saves having to swap magazines as often, which means you can carry fewer of them. Neither is a particularly good choice for hunting deer. After all, you might spook your fellow hunters, and wind up “accidently” dead. How many of you who hunt have actually seen someone in the field with an assault rifle? No, not “I heard about,” but rather you yourself, personally,how many have seen one of these in use to hunt anything in our forests. That should tell you something.

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  19. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK 902am – I still believe that when you try to think about responses to the Newtown massacre, you’re not having very good luck.
    There is nothing RyanM has written to “illustrate the logic of (your) system” which itself you have proposed in more forms than one can follw. And your analysis of the utility of full auto vs semi-auto is beyond moot. All modern military assault rifles can fire semi-auto and full auto. (Some can even select to fire 3-round bursts.)
    In any event, none of this has a bearing on preventing Newtown type tragedies which can even be carried out as ‘effectively’ with a knife as has been shown in China several times. As Torrey and Fuller show (see 19dec12 update), the seminal factor is mental illness, its detection, and containment.

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  20. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Doug-
    How are criminals and criminal gun dealers ever going to pay the bonds given that the vast majority of illegal weapons come from there, and not people who keep their guns in safes?
    BTW, the vast majority of gun violence is committed with hand guns. Like almost all of it. Massacres involving schools and movie theaters are extraordinarily rare, but make for sensational spikes in media advertising revenue. And serve to scare us into irrational and impulsive policy. We won’t be safer, but we’ll feel safer. The reasoning would be laughable, if it wasn’t taken so seriously by some parts of our culture. So in that regard, it’s just sad which brings this CT tragedy full circle into absurdity.

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  21. Paul Emery Avatar

    Rebane 09:45
    “which can even be carried out as ‘effectively’ with a knife”
    You’ve got to be kidding. Are you saying the shooter could have killed 26 people alone with a knife? Do you really believe that or are you wordsmithing “effectivley” here. Can you give me some documentation of this.

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  22. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1038am – I try to keep RR updated as a topic develops. It’s clear you did not read the 19dec12 update and the referenced link. And the reports on the incident are easy to find if you don’t limit yourself to the lamestream outlets.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248054/China-stabbing-22-children-elderly-woman-stabbed-outside-primary-school-Chinese-knifeman.html
    (And where did you get the quoted “effectivley” (sic) from?)

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  23. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Well Ryan, if you want the more robust evrsion of the system , you know I’ve already outlined it on Facebook. Here you go:
    Part 1: “How the NRA buries the dead. In response to my very non restrictive suggestions for bonding and once a year inspections to see if a “legal” buyer hasn’t illegally dumped his guns into the Black Market, I was told that what I had written wasn’t well thought out and that it wouldn’t affect the existing stockpile, which actual is false on both counts. It was well thought out, and it would reduce the exististing stockpile by drying upthe source and driving prices higher. So here’s my slappity slap slap slap answer, part one:
    “What part is poorly thought out. It is very well thought out, it would work, and once again we see the NRA mind in action. No restrictions whatsoever, damn the dead kids, full speed ahead.” ”
    and Part Two: “”We can consider the pile we have already by adding in forfeiture of any property on which an unregistered gun is found to the victims fund. How do you like that? That would include cars, boats, and parcels. If it is the tenant’s fault, then a simple $1,000 fine on the landlord will do. He can add that in when figuring out a security deposit. simple simple, well thought out, and certainly going somewhere. The guns found are forfeit in any case, and will be either melted down or put up for sale, under the new rules.””
    Paul, some whack job cut but did not kill some 20 or so kids in China this last week. Really folks, I do have a life, so you’re on your own for a while. if this had happened locally, I’m sure you’d be coming up with solutions, specific solutions, and instantly.

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  24. Paul Emery Avatar

    19 December 2012 at 09:36 AM
    In any event, none of this has a bearing on preventing Newtown type tragedies which can even be carried out as ‘effectively’ with a knife as has been shown in China several times.

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  25. Ryan Mount Avatar

    killed 26 people alone with a knife?
    Is it really productive to discuss this in such gruesome terms. And isn’t it a cynical question when we ponder, “well, how many more people would have been saved if the Colorado maniac had attacked people with a knife?”
    I think we’re fetishizing* the weapon. Pro and anti-gun supporters both do it, when we should be concentrating on the cause and not the tools of mayhem. Because ultimately massacres are rare. Terrifying, but rare.
    Perhaps removing weapons or access to them might (I truly doubt it, but we’ll feel better about it) reduce the number of impulsive massacres via guns. But someone like Timothy McVeigh spent months planning. And didn’t use a gun at all.
    What then?
    * http://www.google.com/search?q=fetishizing&ie=UTF-8

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  26. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Can anyone guess how this relates?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EGranwN_uk
    I’m gunna get me some man guns, my boys, and do me some shooting….pew…pew…pew. Nobody can tell me nuten!

    Like

  27. Paul Emery Avatar

    Also George, how do you reconcile the dumping of thousands of mentally ill patients on the streets by Ronald Reagan when he was governor with the call for more scrutiny of the mentally ill as a remedy for gun violence?

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  28. earlcrabb Avatar

    Doug’s solution is typical of those who enjoy punishing otherwise law-abiding citizens if they are doing something he doesn’t wish to participate in.
    Howzabout we turn the tables: Since Keachie is admittedly half blind and half deaf, and passed the age of diminishing returns (older than me), I think his auto insurance should be tripled. It’s just a matter of public safety. He could accidently kill someone.

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  29. Russ Steele Avatar

    Paul@11:06
    I heard Tom Sullivan on KFBK explain Reagan’s action yesterday. It was in response to legislation that was passed, forcing the release of people placed in the facilities without their consent by relatives rather than doctors and the courts. The commitment procedures were changed, resulting in the necessity to release those that did not meet the new criterial. You need to look beyond Reagan.

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  30. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Crabb, I will be participating, I own three registered guns. And a nice big well concealed safe, and the dogs , sensors, lights and video cams. a kamikazi pilot might be a problem, but so far time travel isn’t proven.
    We’ll let the insurance companies decide that, according to the free market. My mom drove up into her nineties, I’ve got 25 years left to reach that point, if she is any guide.

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  31. notpaul Avatar
    notpaul

    “Also George, how do you reconcile the dumping of thousands of mentally ill patients on the streets by Ronald Reagan when he was governor with the call for more scrutiny of the mentally ill as a remedy for gun violence?”
    This?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanterman-Petris-Short_Act
    Just how much of this did Reagan actually write? It does make a great story, though.

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  32. Gregory Avatar

    “Registration is key, which then requires responsibility.”
    Sorry, MA, [cue gong]. Wrong. Better luck next time. Everyone who is forbidden access to firearms is automatically exempt from any penalties under registration laws, thanks to the 5th amendment. Plus, the fresh SCOTUS precedent is, amazingly, that yes, “the people” means the same thing in the 2nd amendment as it does everywhere else in the Constitution, and that it is a right of an individual to own and carry guns.
    A one in a million individual who is mentally ill and capable of a mass slaughter is not stopped by making Joe Schmoe into a criminal for keeping a 13 round clip after anything more than 10 is banned unless registered. Besides, magazines aren’t serialized.
    Teaching by example is powerful, and everyone who has guns or knives and shares a home with someone who might be better off institutionalized can be expected to be securing their homes better than they have been.
    Mass murder is easy; I’ve no doubt I could figure out how to slaughter ten times as many as Friday’s body count and dominate the 24 hour news cycle for a few cycles. But you’ll just have to trust that I won’t, as we trust most people not to do such things. The answer is to restrain the people who have shown we really can’t trust them.
    It does appear the Connecticut mental health bill that was voted down last March would have given the professionals who had seen the shooter the ability to get him (and everyone else) the help that was so badly needed, but the usual suspects here would rather side with the ACLU who still think the individual rights of the severely mentally ill trump the rights of society, and against the NRA which holds the rights of all law abiding gun owners to own and carry guns are more important than the rights of the severely mentally ill to reject treatment.

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  33. Ryan Mount Avatar

    I believe Reagan was forced by the Legislature to release the mentally ill.
    There was a very strong “patient rights” movement in the 1970s. Probably due to things like One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. At the time mental health and developmental professionals wanted the State of California out of the caring for “crazy people” business. So acting on their recommendations that’s what the government did.
    Of course Reagan signed it, but it’s not unlike the glorious Clinton budget years that were enabled by a GOP Congress. It takes two to tango.
    RL-
    Cars don’t kill people, people kill people. I recently learned in these very threads that cars are not as dangerous as a hand gun. My bad. Therefore, I’ve decided to go out, purchase a gun and strap some wheels on it for my transportation needs.

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  34. TheMikeyMcD Avatar

    Anyone have an estimate for how many children Obama has killed via various wars, drone strikes, etc?

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  35. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Mikey-
    Or Malaria that probably could have been prevented with [gasp] DDT or a stupid net or antibiotics. Note, malaria might be preferable to the antibiotics, from personal experience.
    No one cares about children unless they’re white and suburban. Or unless Sally Struthers is crying.

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  36. earlcrabb Avatar

    Back in 1965, I was in a band that played at DeWitt hospital in Auburn. We went there with a church group who wanted to offer the patients some live entertainment. Being teenagers who had heard horror stories about our local looney bin since we were lttle kids, we were rather nervous. After we set up our equipment, the orderlies opened the doors and a mob of squealing crazy people rushed the stage. They thought we were the Beatles. One of the church kids (who grew up to be a CHP officer) took a sucker punch from a large male inmate. The Cuckoo’s nest comparison was no exaggeration.
    And Doug, your new insurance fees won’t have anything to do with your ability to drive. It’s just a ploy to get you off the road.

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  37. Gregory Avatar

    Earl, sounds a lot like that gig in The Blues Brothers, at the bar that plays both kinds of music… Country AND Western.
    “Rollin’, rollin’, rollin’, keep them Dougies rollin’…”
    Guns don’t kill people like ducks don’t quack. But it’s the one pulling the trigger who has free will and takes the responsibility for the result. I am reminded of an apocryphal story of a frontier judge, asked, “Why did you sentence the horse thief to be hanged, and let the killer go free?” responded with “I’ve seen men who needed to be shot but I ain’t ever seen a horse that needed to be stolen”.
    I think the gun nuts call this “Being judged by 12 rather than carried by 6”. Sorry, but in a free and open society that already has about one gun per person (sorry, I know some of us don’t have their share) we are stuck with reacting to crimes after the fact, and there is no Gun Control button to push that hasn’t been tried, and failed.
    Don’t forget, the old DiFi Assault Weapons Ban lapsed because virtually no one besides DiFi and a small circle of her friends thought it did one damn bit of good.

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  38. TheMikeyMcD Avatar

    They don’t call him Joe ‘the mouth’ Biden for nothing:
    http://washingtonexaminer.com/biden-2008-if-obama-tries-to-fool-with-my-beretta-hes-got-a-problem/article/2516400#.UNI2r4njnHN
    “I guarantee you Barack Obama ain’t taking my shotguns, so don’t buy that malarkey, They’re going to start peddling that to you. If he tries to fool with my Beretta, he’s got a problem”

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  39. Gregory Avatar

    “I think Ben is correct: we have to go right at the second amendment. The right to ‘bear arms’ is not a unrestricted right, and we need to re-write it to reflect that fact, taking the ability to interpret it as such because of a misplaced comma and the power of a lobbying group off the table.” – Steven Frisch
    Sorry, Steve Frisch (at the FUE’s), but the comma isn’t a problem; the minor variations in the hand copied early versions have no effect on the meaning of its 18th century gramnar or it would have been fixed a couple centuries ago. It was exactly what they wanted, an individual right to own and carry arms (including rifles and pistols) because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free State. If you think it’s just so there can be an army, “well regulated” and “free” could be deleted without affecting its meaning.

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  40. Russ Steele Avatar

    Gallop has tested the American People on how to stop the school shootings. Banning guns come in 4th on the list.
    To Stop Shootings, Americans Focus on Police, Mental Health
    Democrats substantially more likely to see assault gun ban as effective
    PRINCETON, NJ — Americans are most likely to say that an increased police presence at schools, increased government spending on mental health screening and treatment, and decreased depiction of gun violence in entertainment venues would be effective in preventing mass shootings at schools. Americans rate the potential effectiveness of a ban on assault and semi-automatic guns as fourth on a list of six actions Gallup asked about.

    Fulll Poll is HERE
    Bottom Line
    Americans don’t hold the belief that any one action — at least out of the six tested in this research — would be overwhelmingly effective in preventing future mass shootings at schools. At most, 53% say that an increased police presence at schools would be very effective; leaving almost half who say that such an action would be somewhat or not at all effective.
    The focus since the Newtown shootings has been primarily on new gun laws. Various U.S. representatives and senators have either introduced or have promised to introduce new gun control legislation over the past several days. President Barack Obama has talked about new gun laws, and his appointment of Vice President Joe Biden to head up the White House task force to reduce gun violence will no doubt focus heavily on gun legislation. Many Americans, however, apparently continue to harbor doubts that laws, such as a ban on semi-automatic weapons, would be highly effective in preventing future mass shootings at schools.

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  41. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    George didn’t like me pointing out that a monkey with a gun can kill people too, and deleted the pretty graphic. Yo can see it at http://www.flickr.com/photos/keachie .

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  42. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    “It was exactly what they wanted, an individual right to own and carry arms (including rifles and pistols) because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free State.”
    ~Gregory~
    “well regulated” DOES NOT INCLUDE Sandy Hook like events, so we must be doing it wrong.
    Look up coach Pat Kelsy, Coach at Winthrop, and give him a view.

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  43. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Exactly the point I was making Doug, “well regulated”. What we have now is not well regulated if 100,000 people a year are injured and 30,000 people a year are killed by gun violence. And Greg, if you are going to quote me I would appreciate it if you would at least point to the full comment.
    http://sierrafoothillsreport.com/2012/12/19/welcome-to-the-nra/#comments
    But the reality is I have come to expect no less than excuses from the posters here so why should yesterday have been any different?
    By the way, the very title of this post is snark–“Fire, Ready, Aim–Passion Driven Public Policy”. The positions taken here by most are pretty well thought out and rational positions that most posters would have made regardless of Sandy Hook. My thoughts on the regulation of guns proceed the events, as any well research search of these an other blog posts would evidence. There is no emotional response here…no passion driven public policy…this is just another example in a long string of examples of why we need a new approach to gun regulation and public health.
    I am comforted by the knowledge that those pontificating on “protecting their gun rights” are pissing in the wind here, and the voice of the reasonable will likely prevail in this debate on the national stage.

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  44. Russ Steele Avatar

    Steven,
    Did you read the poll results? The American people have not put more gun restrictions at the top of the list. Mental health is the issue that needs to be addressed, not more gun regulations.

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  45. Ryan Mount Avatar

    What we have now is not well regulated
    OK. I’m gonna leave out the other things George mentioned in his original post that can happily kill us probably more indiscriminately and stick to arms, as per the 2nd Amendment.
    You’re right. It is not well regulated. However it is already well legislated, in that we have more laws than we no what to do with already. For example, if the CT State laws (not even talking about Federal ones) were followed, we wouldn’t be having this absurd dialog about whether more children would be alive if the attacker used a Bowie knife.
    The core arguments against more “well regulated” weapons are that we’re not “well regulating” them now due to a variety of reasons: a lack of enforcement funding, their massive prevalence which is overwhelming to say the least, and the fact that criminals don’t care how well regulated their illegal firearms are. And of course, there is a sizable chunk of the electorate who likes their semi-automatics. What reformers are going to have to do is amend the Constitution. And I’m willing to bet a sizable chunk donation to the Hospitality House that advocates won’t even get close to the 2/3 majority for such a Amendment. Maybe not even 50%. But I’m all for twiddling with the Constitution often, which is why there’s such a high standard for amending it.

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  46. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Ryan, I agree with you, the answer may very well lay in enforcing many of our existing laws better than we have been. But I still contend that the assault weapons ban, large magazine ban, 30 day waiting period requirement and mandatory annual re-registration makes sense. The argument that guns would till be available to criminals would gradually diminish as illegal guns are destroyed and the cost of controlled guns goes up.
    Russ, I have advocated addressing both at the same time–but I just have to say you guys have been arguing here for 3 years that there should be no “Obamacare”, are you now in support of increasing state funded mental health care?

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  47. Ryan Mount Avatar

    I’m for the bans Steve. I’m for more regulation and enforcement. We can even get rid of the semis and the extended magazines. Fine.
    I just don’t think it’s gonna stop the horrors like the ones we witnessed last Friday. The most massive school bombing that ever took place in the USA was executed with dynamite. The most destructive day care center bombing was carried out with fertilizer and diesel.

    The argument that guns would till be available to criminals would gradually diminish as illegal guns are destroyed and the cost of controlled guns goes up.
    In about 70 years (just picking a random inconsequential date) due to the sheer magnitude of illegal weapons on the street. Progress, I guess. We’d do better to amend the Constitution and do it the right way. Mickey-mousing the legislation just makes more people criminals. More incarceration, like the war on drugs.
    Why not do it the right way? Further define militias, for example Make them into gun clubs or something. That is, you need to belong to a gun club to own a gun, or something like that.

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