Rebane's Ruminations
December 2012
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“Passion governs.  And she never governs
wisely.”  Benjamin Franklin

George Rebane

The 14dec12 Newtown elementary school massacre again brings out all of our weaknesses as an ignorant and free people.  And the pandering politicians and public media are already at the trough, feeding on and encouraging every imaginable emotion that short circuits reason.  I want to take a look at the next collective calamity we are adding to the current pile within the Beltway.

The national debate on the massacre and reawakening of more gun controls is being repeated in an extended comment stream below ‘Ruminations – 14dec12 (updated)’.  Predictably, the arguments highlight the main polarities that today define and divide us.  The discussion herein will be limited to the reasoning processes that are fueling the forecasts of new public policies promised for the new year.

In the above referenced post a liberal commenter declared that the Newtown evil arose out of an inbred quality of American culture displayed most gruesomely in the 19th century massacres of American Indians during the nation’s westward movement.  His reasoning strongly concluded that Newtown’s mass deaths were of a piece with those inflicted on the Indians, and therefore give rise to modern day mass deaths in schools, theaters, malls, and other places where people are tightly packed.  His summa is that “a death is a death”, therefore they should all be considered of a feather.  Several other liberal commentators were quick to join their support to this deductive delusion.


If we take a deep breath, step back, and throw a critical brain cell on the matter, then we can quickly organize mass deaths into a layered structure or taxonomy, and organize them into six categories as follows (other taxonomical variants will equally serve my arguments).

Categorized Mass Deaths
1.    War – transnational (public policy)
2.    War – internecine (public policy)
2.1.    Civil (Russian 1918-23, Spanish 1935-39)
2.2.    Punitive (War between the states – punish South)
2.3.    Genocidal (USSR-Kulaks, Germany-Jews, China-intellectuals, Cambodia-?,19th century aboriginal massacres)
3.    Accidents
3.1.    Occupational (mine disaster)
3.2.    Recreational (Titanic)
3.3.    Medical (‘medical mistakes’)
3.4.    Infra-structure failure (bridge, building collapses)
3.5.    Technological (rogue versions of AI, nano-bots, genomic accident)
4.    Ideological (terror)
4.1.    Biological (plague)
4.2.    Blast (bombings, 9/11)
4.3.    Chemical (poisoning)
5.    Criminal
5.1.    Collateral (pursuant to other criminal objective)
5.2.    Murder (purposive targeted killing)
5.3.    Insanity (deranged shooter)
6.    Natural
6.1.    Black Swans – Storms, Floods, volcanoes, earthquakes, …

What is quickly apparent is that the Newtown shootings of the deranged criminal kind (see 5.3), and the 19th century Indian massacres that resulted from the execution of a deliberate and purposive public policy (see 2.3) are totally different and of a different kind.  And perusing the above outlined taxonomy, we see that mass deaths come from many sources, in many forms, and for many purposes – in short, if anything, a death is definitely not a death.

But none of this will provide a detour in the progressive mind’s established progress toward critical thought.  More rational thinkers quickly understand that if the objective of any debate today is to devise ways to prevent future mass deaths, then we must examine a wide range of very different public policies that are appropriate for each of the above listed subcategories.

And now we come to deciding what if anything should be done in response to Newtown.  Again, reason calls for first attempting to find what the causes of such a massacre were that can be expected to realize again in the future, and what interventions are possible.  This is no simple matter, and most certainly not found in the simplistic progressive propositions put forth under my previous post.  For a counter to this, I posit that simple causes satisfy simple minds, and that is again bearing fruit nationwide under our pandering political leadership – especially those promoting a greater social agenda.

News pours in by the hour of fresh proposals for more control of guns, especially those designated as “assault weapons”.  All of the proposals circumvent any attempt at an objective assessment of what happened, save the obvious evidence that 26 people were shot with a semi-automatic rifle after which the deranged shooter killed himself.  And that is all our progressive legislative mavens in Washington need to go forth and add yet another layer of gun control to the pile of unenforced gun laws already on the books.  Subsequently, more previously normal and everyday behaviors by law abiding citizens will be criminalized with no promise of solving the undefined problem leading to the Newtown massacre of innocents.

To put this into an even more focused perspective, every decision professional and the extensive multi-discipline literature counsel that ‘Fire!, Ready, Aim’ is not the rational approach to a decision, and following that path almost always leads to later disaster and collateral damage.  Such counsel is given to patients, clients, corporations, and legislatures by psychiatrists, psychologists, family counselors, lawyers, corporate consultants, and purveyors/practitioners of the more technical decision sciences (full disclosure – I was employed in and contributed to the latter two fields).

As examples, consider the ‘ban assault guns’ and enforcement of existing gun laws issues.  Assault gun is an emotional label fostered by the ignorant, the agenda driven ideologues, and the sensationalist media.  An assault gun is a weapon currently employed by the world’s militaries in the business of war.  ‘Currently employed’ is the operational phrase here.  Back during the American Revolution a smoothbore flintlock musket was an assault weapon, but quickly lost that qualification when percussion caps and mass-produced rifling were introduced.

We can continue that analysis with every new introduction of firearms technology over the last 200 years that made the individually carried weapon lighter, more deadly, more reliable, higher rate of fire, and more capacious so as to increase the combat load of ammunition a soldier could carry farther.  A case in point is that today no weapon can qualify as an assault gun that is also not fully automatic with a rapidly interchangeable, large capacity magazine (not clip).  The sale of assault weapons has been illegal in the US for more than 75 years.  Semi-automatic weapons simply no longer qualify as military assault guns, except in the proposals of emotion reliant demagogues.

And that brings us to the relatively recent revision of how we understand the Second Amendment.  The progressive, who sees a sane society as one that is essentially a toothless ward of the state, dependent on it for every benefit of life,  will insist that only government should possess guns.  The road to that enlightened state is through the continual injection into the public forum of thoughts like recently uttered by President Obama, that “no one needs an assault gun to go deer hunting”, thereby including two shibboleths in one tidy little homily.  Three generations today have not been taught what our Founders believed about the maintenance of liberty under governments that by their nature have the tendency to become tyrannical.  (My expanded thoughts on this are expounded under the introduced notion of Par Force.)

Finally we come to the enforcement of existing gun laws which fill reams in federal and state legal codes.  The conclusion, as recently reviewed by Robert Leider at the University of Pennsylvania School of Law, is that government’s record of enforcement is one of extensive delinquency, especially the important ones to prevent massacres like Newtown.  As examples, Leider points out that the states’ lack of reporting required of known mentally unfit persons led to two such multiple killings.  And the same delinquency very likely contributed to Newtown shooter Adam Lanza’s not being identified and logged as a “mental defective”, thereby bringing in other legal requirements for the possession and storage of guns at his residence.

However, what government does do well in this arena is to make difficult for legally competent citizens, and limit the acquisition and use of firearms which it considers can be used against its overreach of our freedoms.  A government that trusts its citizens would maximize the availability and prudent use of firearms in the land (e.g. Switzerland); a fearful government banish
es legal broad-based ownership of weapons that can approach par force with the local constabulary.

So in this environment of sustained quasi-hysteria, the nation goes forth to draft new laws supposed to prevent mass killings, whose causes are unknown, through politically propitious strictures whose only effects are to salve the irrational and temporary components of our media-fostered national grief.

[18dec12 update]  Expanding on reasonable responses to the killings, David Kopel, research director of the Independence Institute, wrote in the 18dec12 WSJ ‘Guns, Mental Illness and Newtown’.  In it he notes that “Today, Americans are safer from violent crime, including gun homicide, than they have been at any time since the mid-1960s.”, and relates these statistics to what laws were on the books when.  At the same time he notes the increase in mass shootings over the years, and it is these mass shootings that give rise to the stoked public hysteria we are witnessing today.

Nowhere are school children in greater danger from such mass killings than in Israel.  That country long ago adopted a sane policy of school security that includes firearms available to staff.  Marc Kahlberg gives an overview of that country’s approach in ‘Why there are no school shootings in Israel’.

[19dec12 update]  Dr E. Fuller Torrey and Doris A. Fuller of the Treatment Advocacy Center present a cogent case – ‘The Potential Killers We Let Loose’ – for reducing the likelihood of mass killings of the type that occurred in Newtown.  Their analysis reveals the role that observable yet untreated mental illness continues to play in such massacres.  Moreover, the roadblocks that our light thinking civil libertarians have placed in having such people treated has definitely been a contributing factor to these tragedies.  And it turns out that Connecticut happens to be “among the worst states” to permit early and effective treatment of the mentally ill.

[20dec12 update]  This morning President Obama called for rapid action – within the next 30 days – on new gun laws, citing the need for speed while public passions about the Newtown killings are still high.  Meanwhile his light thinking legions are telling everyone that the current legislative panic is based on reason – one local worthy even went so far as to declare “There is no emotional response here…no passion driven public policy…this is just another example in a long string of examples of why we need a new approach to gun regulation and public health.”  It seems that some progressive pikers are not listening very carefully to their thought leader.

What has yet to enter the national debate is a reasoned discussion of the 2nd Amendment’s purpose.  As all, save the statist progressives, know, our Founders were not silly enough enshrine the citizen’s ability to hunt deer in the Constitution.  History had already shown them the efficacy of an armed population in denying tyranny a foothold in the form of a crushing central government.  For that they established states’ rights as distinct “laboratories of freedom”, and made sure that guns would not be taken from the people, whether they belonged to the encouraged state militias or not.

This factor has seen little coverage in the growing debate.   But it is the prime factor for defending the maintenance of par force (q.v.) in the land, or as close to that as can reasonably be expected.   In the absence of such discussion we have seemingly reasonable people looking to stop Newtown like killings while agreeing that banning semi autos, magazine restrictions, and ammo permits seem like a reasonable step forward.  The question is ‘reasonable step forward to what?’

That this aspect of gun ownership seems to garner less and less coverage when gun control discussions come up – focusing instead on deer hunting, personal protection, and target shooting as the reason for having guns – is of more than passing interest.  For example, even a more conservative news outlet like Fox News still considers it prudent to be silent on the matter.  To me that appears like the progressives’ generations-long comprehensive embrace of government has won the day in the public media.  Moreover, the topic is also becoming a difficult one to raise on many blogs and the social media (e.g. consider its almost total absence in the comment threads that populate the comment stream of this posting).  It’s as if the Founders’ concerns are now far behind us.

ArmingSchools
[21dec12 update]  The NRA completed its deliberations on the Newtown killings and issued its considered recommendations (here).

The main being to have schools manned by armed guards as are other facilities – stadiums, airports, malls, … – where high densities of people congregate.  This is a half way step to the Israeli solution which has had an exemplary record of success in a much more dangerous environment.  NRA Executive VP Wayne LaPierre also recommended that governments at all levels begin enforcing existing laws and establish a long sought “robust National Instant Check System, used to perform background checks on would-be buyers at federally registered firearms dealers.”

These are policy responses which RR and many of its readers have backed over the years.

And as is typical with the growth of the nation’s lunatic leftwing, demonstrators were again in place attempting to disrupt the NRA’s presentation of its recommendations.  Against such useful idiots the nation remains defenseless.

[more]  We are constantly reminded of the stratospheric hypocrisy of the rabidly liberal media.  446 school aged children have been shot so far this year in Chicago, to the sounds of crickets from the lamestream.  (more here, and H/T to reader) They have been predominantly black and other minorities, but no one gives a shit – not their neighborhoods, not their community leaders, not the city’s leadership, not the state of Illinois, not the federal government, …, no one.  There is no outrage, no outcry, no demonstrations, no progressives lamenting the murder of innocents.

The sleazebag politicians don’t want to highlight this marathon of murder because they have no solutions and don’t want to draw attention to the desperate environments that government programs have created in the city.  And most certainly they don’t want to shine a light on the obvious truth that Chicago and Illinois have the most draconian and restrictive gun laws in the nation.  Instead, the progressives’ policy is to just let them quietly die year after year, and then make a big noise when white kids are killed in a rare event that suddenly needs all kinds of displayed hysteria to show proper concern, and remove more freedoms from the entire population.

Posted in , , , , ,

265 responses to “Fire!, Ready, Aim – Panic-driven Public Policy (updated 21dec12)”

  1. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Then it didn’t post. I will try again:
    “Nothing you’ve written of any substance has been ignored.
    Posted by: Gregory | 18 December 2012 at 09:49 AM ”
    Glad to see you are reading everything I write, Greg.

    Like

  2. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Regarding what Todd said.
    First off, Ben is a decent person. I wish you two would stop with this back and forth. I also wish I was a foot taller. So there you go. What do you do when you run into each other at SPD? Anyhow, the point is, government intervention has not worked. What makes us think even more will be work more? Hey, we’ll just super-size the laws. They’re gonna have to amend the Constitution.
    We. Need. To. Enforce. The. Current. Laws. Rather than legislating like Sally Struthers.
    Anyhow, onto to Joe.
    Joe-

    When will the insanity end
    Ooooo. Mr Kotter! I know! Answer: never. Maybe we should move to a safer place like Norway. No, wait…
    America is the most violent first world country on Earth.
    Misleading. But it’s convenient to pick a sample size, and then book end it with like brethren. But then we ignore all kinds of other kinds of things like our non-homogeneous population, etc.
    Our homicide rate, for example is actually low and has been falling over the past few years. It’s 4.2 people per, wait for it…100,000 people. Be glad we’re not in Honduras where it’s over 90/100K. South Korea is 2.6. Luxembourg is 2.5, which is ironically higher than Afghanistan at 2.4.*
    tyrannical government home and abroad. That 17th century notion no longer applies.
    Stay away from my family and friends. But please take my teenagers. The US government is one of the most, if not the most dangerous governments in the world. Like all governments. See my comment about pathology above. And don’t make me evoke Mr. Paul Emery’s use of Native Americans to prove my point. Or recently African-Americans. Or even more recently, the LBGT community. Or Pakistani or Yemeni children. Or people who have no sense of humor.
    There is no chance what-so-ever that an armed rebellion will take place if a dictator or other evil cadre ever gains power in America
    Again, please stay away from my family. This is frankly as whacky as Arch Conservatives who believe that the USA only does good with its military around the globe. Of course it’s possible, that is a dictator could rise from Hollywood, Kansas or a Dr. Oz appearance. Probably more likely is a cadre of corporatism and crony capitalism enabled by a lazy and incompetent electorate.
    * http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/Homicide_statistics2012.xls

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  3. Gregory Avatar

    Looks like JK is copying DK’s style of logic. Absurdities.
    “I’m at a personal loss to understand why anyone would want military-ish grade weapons” -Ryan
    Why does anyone want to buy a ‘Vette, when a Ford Focus is all anyone really needs? And in any case, these aren’t “military-ish grade weapons”. We don’t send out US Army or Marine troops on combat missions with Bushmasters. It’s a crippled version meant for civilians.

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  4. TheMikeyMcD Avatar

    Todd, Ben’s ideology requires individuals to be placed into ‘classes’ (Jews, middle class, rich, etc), government FORCE dictated by a mob, un elected central planners that destroy through the inflation tax, increased debt as a solution to debt, more spending as a solution to too much spending, government as deity… an ideology of sin based on pride/envy/hate run full course.
    The progressives will point to corporatism, enabled by a too powerful government, as the problem while asking for bigger government as the solution.
    We, those with a foundation of love, must continue to focus on individual liberty. We must point out the blessings of capitalism, choice, freedom.

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  5. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Greg-
    I can make that Focus run real fast, BTW, like we used to do with a 327 in a Vega. However, for the record, I don’t care if someone has mortars in their backyard, as long as they don’t go off and kill/injure me or anyone else. But there’s always that dumbass factor that I think should be considered with discussing the 2nd Amendment with regards to my liberties not to die from dumbassness. I have several friends (I do have friends) I know who owns an assortment of guns safely locked in their safes. They show them to me every time I come over. And they’re neat, in their homes.
    I still think it’s weird having a faux assualt rifle. But that’s a personal taste thing, like “I don’t like spaghetti” more than a more objective assessment like, “Dr. Oz is destroying the minds of millions of unemployed couch potatoes, at the same time single-handedly keeping the Briar Patch in business.”

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  6. Paul Emery Avatar

    Mikey
    Todd, as a genetic Republican, needs your gentle lecture about liberty having supported the Patriot act, deficit spending, war in Iraq and any number of unconstitutional decisions during the reign of Bush II. As a Republicrat since conception he knows other way.

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  7. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    I think Paul Emery has been snooting the funny plant smoke again. Paul, what you consider success and what I consider success are 180 degrees off. You resort to snaky personal attacks and I simply tell the truth about you and liberals in general. Since you have no common sense, I feel I am fighting the unarmed. What a hoot!

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  8. TheMikeyMcD Avatar

    Ryan, LOL.
    Paul, I sincerely hope I don’t come off as lecturing anyone :). That being said, the scariest Republicans I know are the one’s that ignore Reagan’s spending, Bush’s sellouts (Patriot Act, etc) and Bailouts (yes, it was under Bush that signed multiple stimulus acts in 2008 that went for GM, AIG, etc) and the fact that Bernanke was a Bush pick! Ugh. Damn it does feel like I’m lecturing, sorry y’all.

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  9. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Did Paul not tell the truth about your history in the political arena, Todd?

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  10. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    All victories Keachie.

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  11. George Rebane Avatar

    Gentlemen, stay on topic please. This one-on-one crap is more suited for other venues. And the ‘he hit me first!’ bullshit is really wearing.

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  12. Gregory Avatar

    Ryan, I never wanted a faux assault rifle either. I drove a rental Focus about 1000 miles last year… fine car. And 14 years ago I bought a Chevy Prizm (branded Toyota Corolla) on an employee discount chit (the last one a close relative was going to be getting) because the only other GM car available with a manual transmission was the Vette. Would have been a kick but better economy and performance on Nevada County’s dirt roads was important to us.
    BTW, I just heard a claim on the radio (Tom Sullivan show) that an adult has reported that the Colorado shooter had told her that he had fantasies about killing people.
    DANGER, DR SMITH! WARNING! WARNING!

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  13. George Rebane Avatar

    Difficult for me to understand is the extraordinary concern many people have about being killed with a firearm. The probability of such a demise for the overwhelming fraction of Americans is vanishingly small; and when all Americans are considered, the chances are still less than that of being killed by lightning. Yet the unreasonably heightened fear is real for enough people that it should be addressed by ever newer laws – and politicians are more than willing to comply and build up their accounts for the next election.
    We know from the historical record that none of these ‘gun laws’ have provided any permanent relief from the fear. As passed, each one is like applying a band-aid to an abrasion – it may give a bit of temporary relief, but does nothing whatsoever to protect its wearer from future abrasions. We also know from history that disarming the public does increase crime rates, and ultimately is a precursor to something more sinister that winds up killing untold numbers of then newly criminalized citizens.
    Medical ‘accidents’ kill about 100K Americans each year in and out. That is the equivalent of a wide-body jetliner crashing every single day of the year. But because the deaths are distributed both in time and space, literally no one cares (least of all the lamestream). And every one of these deaths could arguably have been prevented – they were caused by the operation of the healthcare industry and not by any health problem of the patients, save that it subjected them to the tender mercies of that industry. We just let them die, consider it the cost of doing healthcare, and go on with our own business – and then we repeat it again next year.
    For some reason such a stalwart tolerance for risk cannot be brought to bear on the diminishing rate of gun related deaths. And looking at how gun deaths break down, going hyper due to a recent multiple killing by a deranged gunman is, by any measure, also a deranged response. Clearly, maximizing the number of human lives saved in the longer term is not a consideration in any of these post-massacre ventilations. And we still think we can govern ourselves?

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  14. Paul Emery Avatar

    Characterizing contributors as losers opens up a scrutiny of your own standing. Todd has branded me as a “loser” as well because I voted Libertarian in this election. The dismal record of his recent voting record therefore demands attention.
    Keachie, Todd was rejected by the Repubs in his attempt for higher office. That much is history. I grant that he was a NC Supervisor for two terms.

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  15. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Well, it’s fear. And fear is a powerful motivator.
    Maybe we have it bass-ackwards? Well sorta. Maybe our media (news/entertainment) is just making us more scared about guns and not actually more violent. That seems more sensible to me.
    As mentioned yesterday, another 18 people standing on sidewalks minding their own business were killed today by crashing cars. Maybe if we made a series of horror car crash movies where the assailant drive into pedestrians we could ban cars? Or make pedestrians where helmets and body armor? Or maybe we just need to keep teenagers off the road until they’re 27.

    Like

  16. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Ryan and George both go for comparisons that are ridiculous. The entire economy is sadly dependent on 100 year old transportation technology, and three days with every car grounded would cause major mayhem in the food supply alone. Likewise suspend all medical care for three days and the carnage would be incredible.
    Now lock up every private gun, legal and illegal, for three days and what happens to the general welfare? Nothing, or in fact, improved. They had a period recently in NYC in which no one got murdered for 18 hours, and that period was celebrated by the leaders in LE.

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  17. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK 203pm – Another Keachie logic bomb, wow! Who, besides you, was recommending shutting down transportation or healthcare in response to their related death rates? But it definitely is you who is arguing for ‘shutting down’ the private possession of guns, and positing that that would improve general welfare. History is not your friend.

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  18. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    I made no such effort George, to shut down the private ownership of guns. My latest posts are strictly about making sure guns stay in the hands of their legal owners. In fact, as I have pointed out, automatics are no more deadly on dispersed groups than semi auto, and in fact are probably less so. To cut down on the deaths from either, reduce the size of the magazines. I have three guns of my own and am looking into a fourth, plus assorted archery and air gun equipment. If you can afford a 50 calibre machine gun and the ammo that goes with it, fine by me. Just buy a big enough safe to keep it locked up.

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  19. Ryan Mount Avatar

    This is not an apples to oranges thing. You and your friends and family, me, George and everyone else has a higher chance of dying from a falling asteroid than being a victim of gun violence in any given year.
    – Chances in the USA of dying from a homicide: 2.4 per 100,000 people (note this includes all forms of homicide, not just gun violence so it’s probably lower for gun-related violence)
    – Chances of dying from a tsunami if you live on the coast: ~1 per 50,000 people (this is really a guess by people smarter than me)
    – Chances of dying in a car accident: 1 in 6500
    – The good news is, and this is weird, we actually have less a risk of dying from an asteroid at 1 in 500,000 people. It was 1 in 20,000 in 1990.
    General violence has dropped significantly since the 1990s. The Freakonomics guys says its due to abortions. I find that that theory intriguing. I add that we’re more hypersensitive to horrendous crimes do to the frankly sensation coverage in out media and entertainment. Which probably isn’t a bad thing.
    The point is there are dozens of things each day that can potentially kill us. It just so happens that guns seem to capture our someone perverted collective imaginations. But generally gun violence is down, as is all violent crime since the 1990s.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Violent_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg
    There’s no there, there. But the media outlets make lots of money selling insurance ads.

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  20. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    George, you are the one who picked the comparison to doctors, not me. Too bad for you if shutting them down causes far more deaths than shutting down guns, for a period of three days, or even worse, indefinitely. We it in your power to eliminate all hospitals and doctors in the country, or all guns except LE and the military, which would you choose? Which could the country survive without the easiest?

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  21. Ryan Mount Avatar

    I got that wrong. In 1990 we were in more risk of dying from asteroids. Cars are still one the most dangerous thing in our culture.

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  22. Ryan Mount Avatar

    [bangs head on table]. If you shut down guns, only the law-abiding people will shut them up. Criminals and crazy people do not care about laws. That’s why they’re criminals [and crazy people]. I’m pretty certain that the CT cretin didn’t care about the gun laws.
    As long as there’s demand for something, humans are going to figure out how to get it and use it: Booze, the right to vote, drugs, guns, sex, Dr. Oz episodes.
    And as I cited above, the fear over gun violence simply doesn’t rationally match the statistics of other more deadly things. And if we do something like make bullets $1000/piece, capitalism will trump that in a black market almost over night. If we bond or insure weapons, then only law-abiding citizens, none of whom would ever do such a heinous act, will participate.

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  23. Paul Emery Avatar

    This shows that the US has the 12th highest rate of deaths by guns in the world, at 9.20/100,000 just below South Africa. The UK, which has strict controls, has .025. Britain is defiantly multicultural so what is the explanation for the huge difference?
    El Salvador 50.36 50.36 NA NA NA 2009 OAS 2011[1]
    Jamaica 47.44 47.44 NA NA NA 2009 OAS 2011[1]
    Honduras 46.70 46.70 NA NA NA 2007 OAS 2011[1]
    Guatemala 38.52 38.52 NA NA NA 2009 OAS 2011[1]
    Swaziland 37.16 37.16 NA NA NA 2004 UNODC 2006[1]
    Colombia 28.11 27.10 0.87 0.14 NA 2009 UNODC 2011 [2]
    Brazil 19.01 18.10 0.73 0.18 NA 2008 UNODC 2011[3]
    Panama 12.92 12.92 NA NA NA 2010 OAS 2011[1]
    Mexico 11.14 10.00 0.67 0.47 NA 2010 UNODC 2011[4]
    Philippines 9.46 9.46 NA NA NA 2002 UNODC 2002[5]
    South Africa 9.41 NA NA NA NA 2012 UNODC 2012[6] & Stats SA[7]
    United States 9.20 3.7 5.5 0.27 NA 2008-2010 OAS 2012[8]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

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  24. Paul Emery Avatar

    It seems guns are a major health hazard
    From Forbes Magazine
    “Gun violence is a public health issue, and a big one. In the 10 years from 2000 through 2009, more than 298,000 people died from gunshots in the U.S., about 30,000 people a year. If you exclude natural causes of death and consider only deaths caused by injury, it is the second-leading cause of death over that time span; only car accidents (417,000) killed more people. (These numbers come from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.)”
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/robwaters/2012/07/24/gun-violence-the-public-health-issue-politicians-want-to-ignore/

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  25. Ryan Mount Avatar

    No. All homicide deaths, according to the UN is 4.2 per 100000 people. (see link I provided above to the UN) So even an amateur read would tell us that not all homicides are due to guns. Maybe 50%? 30? The old cruel joke goes like this: if you want to kill someone, run them over with your car.
    A suicidal person, and let’s be reasonable here, can easily find other methods. (Do I need to list them here?) Often, but not always, suicidal people have elaborate plans.
    Regarding accidental discharges and manslaughter, I think there’s a valid point there, but if we really want to be safer, we need to get rid of cars and Big Macs.

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  26. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Ryan, you and George included the whole enchilada on doctors and cars, and yet you want to exclude the criminals with guns from my plate. Why is my argument considered a la carte and you get the full meal? We are all obviously talking hypotheticals here, get a grip.
    Well, Ryan, btw, if we are going to bother with car seats, why not gun safes? That’s all I am encouraging.

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  27. George Rebane Avatar

    RyanM 227pm – Actually, annual car deaths number now in the low 30K region compared to medical accidents killing about 100K.
    And given the state of medicine, it would be a very interesting study to see what would happen to the national death rate were healthcare admittances denied for some short period of time. The metric would have to be carefully defined with regard to long term vs short term mortality.
    It’s almost impossible to debate the longer term effects of removing all guns from American society. One side sees social utopia (world peace, goodness, and light), the other is equally convinced of tyranny and revolution.
    DougK 304pm – the use of gun safes has already been discussed here and in previous posts to the level of nausea. Everyone agrees that they should be used if there are no other ways of keeping guns out of wrong hands in a home.

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  28. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Now if I were truly draconian, I require every citizen to step forward with each and every gun they already own and get finger printed and DNA’d and pay the bond for each and every one. I’d be nice and give you 3 months to allow you to get rid of those you couldn’t afford to keep, or maybe have a turn in program of your excess, to be returned to you after 5 years of successful retention of the ones you keep, no charge for storage. My program will very quickly dry up the supply of new guns into the illegal underground, and thus make it much harder to possess one illegally. Yours for safer playgrounds and classrooms. Did you learn yet the details of how Sandy hook was done? So much for locked doors, but they will stop some, so keep them.

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  29. Ryan Mount Avatar

    First off, child car seats are a ruse except for kids under the age of one. There is no evidence that car seats actually save lives above, I believe, the age of 1 1/2 years of age. But there has been significant lobbying by the car seat industry over the years. Again, the ghost of Madison points and laughs at us. (Actually, apparently Madison had no sense of humor from my readings.)
    I agree with mandatory gun safes, Doug. Although all of my responsible friends already use them. I even like the idea of yearly licenses and the fees to cover those. As well as bonds and insurance as you mention. So I agree with you. These all seem congruent with the second amendment’s “well regulated” clause.
    But that’s not going to stop criminals from doing crimes. That a de facto, um, fact. It won’t even slow them down. In fact, I’m willing to bet it will increase criminal gun behavior. Think: the 21st Amendment because we are creating an incentive for criminal activity.
    I just think we’re freaked out about the wrong things, because that’s how we’ve been trained by our media.

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  30. Paul Emery Avatar

    Ryan
    Do you have any documentation on the number of people killed by asteroids in the US?

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  31. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, “deaths by guns” includes suicides, and it’s been well documented that guns are only a second order effect on suicide… in that a gun tends to result in a higher success rate. The main driver is the desire to off oneself in the first place.
    Japan’s violent death rate, murders and suicide, is higher than ours despite no guns to speak of in civilian hands, so they fling themselves off buildings, wade into the sea carrying their kids. All sorts of ways. Somehow, living in a society whose pressures end up with people killing themselves in large numbers seems more oppressive than what we have.

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  32. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Just placing anyone in the back seat improves their odds of surviving a wreck, and that where the car seats have to be by law. Every single kid picked up yesterday was in a car seat in the back seat, I know because I I after school pickup duty. BTW, every car came with a manila envelop with the kids name and room held up tpo the windshield so the five teachers supervising could see, and check, very good security at some of our local schools.
    It may take time, but it will immediately cut down on straw man sales at the gun shows and shops. Every little bit helps.

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  33. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    “DougK 304pm – the use of gun safes has already been discussed here and in previous posts to the level of nausea. Everyone agrees that they should be used if there are no other ways of keeping guns out of wrong hands in a home.” ~George~
    So make them de facto mandatory, that’s all my plan does. Any house can be initially broken into, but hauling off a long gun safe is a real trick, without getting caught, especially if the access and very existence is well hidden.

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  34. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Touche Paul. Sadly I don’t. That was a guest-i-mate provided by a scientist. But that’s not the point. The point is we have an irrational fear of guns based on things far more dangerous than firearms because, as I suspect, of the media and also because there are people who just don’t like guns. I don’t like guns. I also don’t like the goat eyeballs I ate in Hyderabad.
    An Anecdote. On Saturday, we were working on the teenager’s car. We suspected a vacuum leak or an ignition issue. We slapped another carb on there, only to find no spark. So we test the fuel pump by letting it spray gas everywhere. No problem there. Then we sprayed ether into the carb. Nothing. So then my partner decided to test the spark from the plug on the block. I gently suggested that we should wait a few minutes for the ether and the gas to evaporate before testing. Which we thankfully did.
    Should we ban ether too? Gasoline? Maybe I should have a license to work on cars? Or buy starter fluid? Certainly I could use a license with teenagers. Where can I get one of those?
    Doug-
    There has not been any studies regarding the efficacy of child safety seats above the ages of 1 1/2 years. Start here:
    http://www.freakonomics.com/2007/01/05/we-are-not-the-only-ones-who-think-child-car-seats-dont-work-well/
    But I’m happy to be proven wrong. I want to be wrong. It underscores what I was saying about our so-called benevolent government. (You’d think Progressives would jump all over this collusion with government and industry. Oh well) But more directly, how many people even question the efficacy of a child safety seat? Or do we just trust the government like the good sheeple we are, happily blowing $80+ dollars a year on a specious product?

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  35. George Rebane Avatar

    Re DougK’s 345pm – The progressive’s solution to all social problems is more government intervention, especially through detailed diktats on what must used when and where, and by whom for which purpose, and the denial of same for more detailed uses not authorized. That is not a society or form of governance under which at least half the country wants to live. And more from the other half would join once they discovered the full glory of government control in the brave new world.
    Such prescriptions, as exampled here with respect to gun control, deny the legal use of guns to millions of Americans without a shred of evidence that any beneficial purpose would be served. But requiring someone to prove citizenship with easily obtained government issued IDs before voting is seen as prima facie evidence of returning to Jim Crow laws.

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  36. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Ryan, nothing works very well above 35 mph, but center position back seat is the best spot to be in, and if positioning the kids there by law in such a way that the parent can’t make changes during a traffic stop saves lives, let’s keep on doing it.

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  37. Ryan Mount Avatar

    I don’t care if car seats work or not. I only care about getting a ticket from a Cop. My point is, as it has been, is we’re not using our nuggets anymore. We enjoy being told what to do. In fact, we crave that. John Donne, my favorite Renaissance poet, often wrote about how we all want to secretly be slaves. Maybe he was right.
    So guns are killing all children as well as unfastened child safety seats. It’s all irrational.
    Maybe it’s not like 1984, but more like the film the Matrix, but with comfy child safety seats and hot-coffee lawsuits aimed McDonalds. We all feel safer now. Feeling is more important. Goat eyeballs, not so much.

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  38. Paul Emery Avatar

    Let’s have a discussion if the shooting last week would have had far less fatalities if the types of guns available to the shooter would not have been semi automatic. For purposes of discussion lets say they were manual action six bullet cartridge. I contend the fatalities would have been far less and the diminished loss of life in those situations justifies changes in gun laws. There you have it from my perspective.

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  39. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    The is no prescription on my part George, just a bit of encouraging of common sense.
    “I buy gun. I run risk of losing $1000 and penalties to bond company if I don’t hang onto it. Therefore, what to do, what to do?
    Oh, BioID safe in hidden false closet. Good idea, I’ll try that method.”
    I propose no laws concerning HOW a person hangs onto their guns, or even if they have to make any effort to do so at all. I just have consequences built in so that IF a person loses a gun, they pay bigtime. And, BTW:

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  40. Ryan Mount Avatar

    I contend the fatalities would have been far less and the diminished loss of life in those situations justifies changes in gun laws.
    Fine, just take the god-damn things away. ( I really think that’s impossible now) But anyway, what if he build a homemade explosive? Plenty of 13 year old boys experiment with blowing crap up. And now you can learn to make an effective pipe bomb right on the Internet with PVC pipes. Suddenly whacked-out CT cretin boy has 4 pipe bombs and two legal hand guns.
    Or forget that, Paul. Let’s use the NYC soda ban metaphor. You just buy 4, 16oz sodas at the movie theater. CT heathen simply just brings in 6 handguns with him.

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  41. Paul Emery Avatar

    IN this situation I think it would have made a difference but I suppose you can say that’s a hunch. The expediency of having access so such weapons could well have exacerbated the situation and enabled it to happen. There will be much public discussion on this topic and in my view will shift significant public opinion on the issue.

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  42. Ryan Mount Avatar

    It’s speculation, not a hunch. The issue continues to be not access to the weapons, but the state of mental health care and law enforcement in this country. We have ostensibly neither. Only criminals and the mentally ill do these things.
    But I also think, as horrible and despicable as the most recent tragedies are, they’re tempest in teapots compared to other nasty things.
    How many kids have died from easily preventable Malaria* today? Not here in the USA. So no matter. From drone attacks? There’s certainly not an app for that.**
    *http://www.who.int/features/factfiles/malaria/en/index.html
    **http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/08/drone-app/

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  43. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Tom Sullivan reported a shooter was stopped by a off duty woman cop at a theater in San Antonio last week. She was acting as a security guard (off duty). How many people were saved? We will of course never know. Maybe PaulE could get a part time job at the Sierra Cinemas and stand guard there to help.

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  44. Paul Emery Avatar

    I already have a job Todd. Do you?

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  45. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Independently wealthy PaulE. I am the luckiest fellow I know.

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  46. Ryan Mount Avatar

    This conversation isn’t going to end well.
    Can we talk about annoying teenagers instead? It would fit well with the this latest Sierra Cinema comment.

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  47. TheMikeyMcD Avatar

    Paul, do you (an assumed proponent, acquirer and user of an herb that is Federally illegal) believe that additional laws will decrease the frequency or magnitude of future massacres via gun(s)?
    Ryan, I have agreed time and time again with your reasoning (and appreciated your humor too). RU on Twitter?

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  48. TheMikeyMcD Avatar

    Asking for more laws to protect ‘us’ from an unpredictable situation (i.e. pure evil) places too much faith in government. It is not already illegal to kill? Do we assume that pure evil is lazy (“I can’t find automatic weapons so I guess I will skip my plans for today and continue watching Dr. Oz- h/t Mount)?
    Do we ignore the FACT that ‘gun banned’ sub-sections of society (i.e. Chicago) have a higher gun murder rate than open carry sub-sections of society (around the globe)?
    Chicago, pop. 2.6 million. Iowa, pop. 3.1 million. More murders in Chicago since Jan 1, 2012 than in Iowa since Jan 1, 2002.
    Do we pad our stats with gun assisted suicides?

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  49. Paul Emery Avatar

    Mikey
    I believe in this situation guns with less firepower likely would have let do less fatalities. Of course I can’t prove that but it’s a realistic speculation. I have worked with mentally difficult persons in the past and many times they are delusional and spontaneous.

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  50. TheMikeyMcD Avatar

    Paul, I understand. However, I believe that the amount of high caliber guns in circulation make such a goal unattainable.
    If one believes, as I do, that the goal of the 2nd Amendment was to empower us citizens with a force that was capable of protecting themselves from their government we should all have tanks (at least).
    Protecting every us citizen from the delusional and deranges is futile.
    I am more worried about protecting myself against ‘my’ government than I am about protecting myself against solo lunatics.

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