Rebane's Ruminations
December 2012
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George Rebane

As it gathers steam, the national travesty that is Obamacare is now taking big bites out of our nation’s commonweal, and the real tragedy is yet to come.  Since arriving in the dark of night three years ago, it is now morphing into the gigantic puzzle palace that all government programs eventually become.  Obamacare’s puzzle palace is the Health and Human Services Department that now displays a “special combination of rigidity and ineptitude” beyond what was predicted for a program that is supposed to launch and be running by October 2013.

States are shying away from the law’s so-called “clearinghouses” which promise new orders of red tape and government inefficiency.  HHS, that so far has issued more than 13,000 pages of useless regulations, is refusing to answer states’ questions on how they are supposed to manage their ends of Obamacare.  The 14dec12 WSJ reports – 

…  for the better part of a year states and groups like the bipartisan National Governors Association and the National Association of Medicaid Directors have been begging HHS merely for information about how they're required to make ObamaCare work in practice. There was radio silence from Washington, with time running out. Louisiana and other states even took to filing Freedom of Information Act requests, which are still pending.

It is clear that the HHS does not know what it is doing, and is desperately trying to make something up by next October that doesn’t embarrass this administration too much, while forgetting that this administration does not embarrass at all as it staggers toward socialism.

In a word, HHS is treating the states not as the partners it needs to give ObamaCare any chance of success, but as serfs.

Meanwhile, companies are responding by restructuring their workforces, laying people off and making some into part-time employees – anything to escape the latest titan of bureaucratic burdens on our nation’s economy.   And the rest of us pikers are just getting the dribs and drabs of Obamacare’s latest bad news as prescribed by the Pelosi Principle.  It is clear to me that this mess will be way bigger than any of us predicted when that lump of coal arrived in our stocking on Christmas eve three years ago.

H.L Mencken in the 1930s kept a keen and gimlet eye on the mass of bureaucracies launched by FDR’s New Deal, and wondered about the mentality that was behind the onslaught that pushed the nation deeper and deeper into depression until the administration finally threw up its hands and admitted defeat in 1939.  Of this Mencken observed that –

Here is the perfect pattern of a professional world-saver. His whole life has been devoted to the art and science of spending other people's money. He has saved millions of the down-trodden from starvation, pestilence, cannibalism, and worse—always at someone else's expense, and usually at the taxpayer's. . . .
 
Of such sort are the young wizards who now sweat to save the plain people from the degradations of capitalism, which is to say, from the degradations of working hard, saving their money, and paying their way. This is what the New Deal and its Planned Economy come to in practise—a series of furious and irrational raids upon the taxpayer, planned casually by professional do-gooders lolling in smoking cars, and executed by professional politicians bent only upon building up an irresistible machine.

[update]  Newtown, Connecticut elementary school massacre.  This is the latest in a string of such mass shootings that reflect a sign of our times.  In the previous post 'War on Words' where discussion of this tragedy was starting, I posted a comment that in part reads – "… I see much merit in the proposal to permit legal guns in schools so
that such mad shooters don't have a safe environment in which to go on a
serial killing spree. It is today's world, after all.

Rumination – how did we become a world where such mass killings are
becoming so commonplace? And the simple answer that guns are easy to
get today won't wash – today it is harder to get hands on a gun than at
any time in our history.   50 years ago, anyone could have an M-1
semi-automatic carbine or other equivalent weapon(s), and commit similar
atrocities in crowded places like malls, theaters, and schools.  But to
us then it was unthinkable, today it no longer is. What happened?"

Posted in ,

120 responses to “Ruminations – 14dec12 (updated)”

  1. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1211pm – In typical liberal fashion, you take a conversation about criminal civilian shootings, and switch over to examples of government policy of using its military to clear western land areas of its indigenous people – essentially mopping up operations of one civilization ruthlessly invading and colonizing another one. This is such a well-worn tactic in the national debate, and here on the micro scale also explains why the national dialogue is irrational and essentially pointless.
    If you want to discuss the white man’s conquest of the Americas, then do so under its separate heading (I’ll accept a piece on it from you for posting). But please don’t try to confuse the important and very distinct issue we are discussing here (unless, of course, you really are confused about it, at which point we’ll just have to accept you as you are).

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  2. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    I only included it to set the record straight on your view that the “wild west” was free of mass killings. In California there were bounties for Indian scalps. This had nothing to do with military action but was the expression of a violent citizenry that had little regard for human life. Part of the history of the peaceful west.
    This is part of our violent heritage that contributes to the consciousness of mass killers today.
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/goldrush/sfeature/natives_03.html
    “And at one point it was something in the neighborhood of $25 for a male body part, whether it was a scalp, a hand, or the whole body; and then $5 for a child or a woman. In many cases, they only had to bring in the scalp. And in other cases, the whole body was brought in to prove that they had this individual, they’d killed this person, and receive their reward.
    And it was well after 1900 when the law was repealed, that bounty hunting, or whatever you may want to call it, on the California Indians was repealed.”

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  3. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 142pm – I think you have further confused ‘the record’, especially in the context of continuity of consciousness. The purposeful bounties, no matter how heinous we see them today, were public policies and are not of the class of killings we are discussing here.
    And your claim of contributions from the historical past are beyond hysterical. The killers of today know no history, they would be hard pressed to tell you when the Vietnam War occurred, and don’t have a clue of who was president before Bush2. But they are well versed with the wanton killings they see on the media every day, and in which they vicariously participate in their addictive and very realistic video games.
    We must remember that all these killers are people from the ‘no shame’ and ‘self-esteem über alles’ generations. We are reaping what we have very recently sown. It is only the progressives who are in terminal denial about this because it is their ideology that has displaced culture in our public institutions and public forums. Parenting and adult supervision/intervention in the traditional sense – i.e. before mass killings – has long been criminalized and ceased to exist.

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  4. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    King Leonidas butchered 20,000 Persians at Thermopylae PaulE. Since you are of Greek background, should we hold you responsible for that?

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  5. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Just watched a History Channel program on the Black Plague. The Mongols were laying seige to Cappa on te Black Sea in 1347 and their troops contracted the plague. Before they withdrew this European city, they catapulted the plague filled bodies into the city. This spread to the rest f Europe over the next twenty years and killed a whole bunch of white European type folks. PaulE, based on your remarks are you now going to hold those Mongols responsible for the first “germ warfare” attacks? And if so, what will you do about it?

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  6. Paul Emery Avatar

    George, Todd
    This whole sub thread began as a reaction to Georges sanitized vision of the wild west. Now it seems that mass murder as public policy is somehow different than mass murder from a deranged gunman. Dead is dead. Could you explain the difference to women and children massacred Sand Creek in the Colorado Territory in 1864. Around 175 peaceful Indians were slaughtered with two thirds being women and children.

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  7. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 412pm – “Now it seems that mass murder as public policy is somehow different than mass murder from a deranged gunman.” There is nothing new nor seeming about such mass murders, they differ in every dimension save the state of the victims. One is wholesale, legitimate, and with acknowledged widespread approval; the other is limited/random, illegitimate, and with no approval from any quarter.
    Attempting to equate such disparate killings in a discussion that, perhaps, seeks to explore remedial public policies, ends that discussion from the side that could discern the difference – kind of like this discussion that has now become just another example of why a Great Divide solution would be beneficial to both sides.

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  8. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Come on PaulE answer the questions. You started it and now I just want to see how your logic works but as usual, you dodge and change the subject and deny.

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  9. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Since Todd brought in history. I have been watching a documentary series about the English monarchy. Obviously, much of our culture comes from England. Most of the Kings and Queens were completely self absorbed power hungry horrific human beings with no regard for other human life. They had their siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, parents murdered so they could ascend to the throne and invade the nearest neighbor to prove their mettle, all by the age of sixteen, some of them. Their disregard for human life was only surpassed by their greed. The only explanation for such evil behavior is that they were all crazy beyond belief. Kind of sounds like the corporate culture of the robber barons in America past and present. I read a book called “Bush on the Couch” by the head of psychiatry at Harvard. It was about mental problems incurred by the nanny raised, boarding school educated, coddled children of the wealthy and why they should never be in positions of power. Should Todd, and all conservatives be responsible for the acts of a crazy few spoiled brat rich kids whose daddies handed them a fortune and little else, especially human compassion? Sort of like George W. Bush who sent how many patriotic and courageous men and women off to war with lies just so he could huff and puff and strut around the barnyard like an adolescent rooster and maybe get his daddy’s approval.

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  10. Paul Emery Avatar

    Sure Todd, hold me responsible for butchering 20,000 Persians at Thermopylae. You really got me on that one. I don’t have any Mongol heritage. That must be from your side of the gene pool.

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  11. Paul Emery Avatar

    More from Chuck Smith, Instructor Anthropology Department Cabrillo College
    Historically is our heritage as Californians that different from the holocaust?
    “The first 50 years of the American Period was a horrible time for the Native Californians, given the sheer magnitude of what happened during that half century: scalpings of men, women, &children; incarceration in jails with the only way out being enforced indenture to whites for unspecified lengths of time; the kidnapping &sale of Indian children; the massacres of entire Indian villages; the military roundup of Indians and their enforced exile on military reservations where even the most basic of living amenities were lacking; their complete legal disenfranchisement. The outcome of all this was that during the first two decades of the American occupation, the native population of California plummeted by 90 percent – in short, a California version of the WWII Holocaust.”

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  12. Russ Steele Avatar

    Paul,
    You are playing the classic liberal role in refusing to address the initial issue of this post. Dragging out your straw men to slay is just disrespectful of the others who comment here, who are interested in examining the Sandy Hook disaster, not exploring California Native American history. If I have missed the point, please explain how this is related to Sandy Hook?

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  13. Gregory Avatar

    JKoyote conflates the “wild west” of reality with all those Lone Ranger episodes of his youth.
    Indeed, the mass killers that have struck recently have done a bang up job choosing targets that had the false safety within a “gun free zone”, which really only makes sense if you think the presence of the gun turns nice people into bubbling sociopaths.
    Sorry, no. Ozzie and Harriet arguing over what to watch on TV would not turn into a Sam Peckinpah slo-mo bloodbath if a gun was in the house.
    The Colorado Batman killer very possibly chose the theater and not the campus because the gun free status of the campus had been overturned by the courts last March. Anyone with a valid concealed weapons permit can carry their gun(s) on campus. If what you want to do is to shoot as many people as you can before someone with a gun shoots you, a gun free zone is the E ticket, so choose the theater. It’s private property and the owners thought everyone would be safer if no one had guns… as if that stops anyone intent on mass murder.

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  14. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    The connection between the treatment of California Indians and the current stream of mass murders is simply one of the ongoing psychosis in American culture, that it is OK to kill the “other,” the “not you or yours.” it is not unique to the American culture. All I see here is arguing over how to argue, much like arging over the shape of the peace table for peace talks. Fluffernutters on parade, move on, no solutions to anything found here.

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  15. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Paul at 4:12 – “dead is dead” – Oh thank you, Paul, for reminding us of that. 1973 to 2011 est number of abortions in America: 54.5 million. They were innocent of any wrong doing and they were as human as you or I, Paul. Well, me anyway. I’ll let you speak for yourself. What percentage of those aborted were of African descent? They were human and they were killed. That is medical science. We live in a culture that lets us decide to snuff out human life if it’s: very young/wrong sex/not convenient/looks yucky/the father committed a crime against me/would be evidence of a crime the father committed/or you fill in the blank.
    Some statistics:A child has a greater chance of dying on the way home from daycare than from a gun.
    The age group 5-9 continues the trend with Unintentional Injury leading the list. Motor vehicle accidents have risen to 808, drownings have dropped to 234, fires and burns are at 178. Gun deaths are 28 or 1.8% of the 1534 deaths for 1997. Homicides are the fourth leading cause of death for 5-9 year olds with a total of 174. Of these 77 or 44.3% were committed with firearms. Car crashes kill 8 times more children than guns. Of those crashes 62% of the deaths involve unrestrained children ages 0-14. Drunk drivers cause 39% of fatal crashes and of those involving children 60% are riding with the drunk driver.
    A 10-14 year old still has a greater chance of dying riding to and from soccer practice than from a gun.
    This group continues with Unintentional Injury deaths totaling 1837. Motor vehicle accidents are 57% of the total with 1056, followed by drowning at 215, fires and burns account for 5.4% or 99, and firearm deaths are 94 or 5.1%. Suicide now becomes a troubling fact in this age category–as the third leading cause of death at 303. Of these suicides, suffocation is the most common at 154 or 50.8%, and firearms are used in 126 suicides or 41.6%. Poison is third at 14, or 4.6%. Homicide is the fourth cause of death with a total of 283 deaths. Firearms are the most used accounting for 73.5% or 208. It is in this age group that a lot of disturbing trends start which explode in 15-19 year olds. Until now, cars and drowning have been the most deadly for children. Crime and suicide now become a greater threat as children become adolescents
    Our Dear Leader went on TV and boo hooed about the tragedy quite convincingly while failing to mention the fact that he voted for infanticide and held the coveted 100% rating from NARAL while in the Ill leg. He has done everything humanly possible to enable abortion in America and yet claimed that he was “the anti abortion’ candidate.
    What legislative body in this country operates in a “gun free zone”? Which of the political loud mouths that are calling for banning guns thinks it should apply to their own (or their own families) body guards?
    A terrible tragedy occurred at a school in Conn – but there are bigger tragedies daily in this country. I would suggest we start working on the bigger problems before we worry about the lessor ones. I have a 3 year old grandson and I’m far more concerned about what will probably happen to him than worrying about what probably won’t happen to him. I think a lot of folks need to calm down and use their brain.

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  16. Paul Emery Avatar

    This whole posting was diverted when I questioned if the US state sponsored terrorism of the 19th century should be considered mass murder. It was then and remains now a valid question especially when the “wild west” was characterized by our host as being free of mass shootings such as what occurred this week.

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  17. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Scott wrote: “I think a lot of folks need to calm down and use their brain.”
    Wow. You ask us to use our brains, just after diminishing gun violence and saying that the greater tragedies are the 54 million killed (aborted) babies since 1973. That’s just sick.
    I am speechless…

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  18. George Rebane Avatar

    Re PaulE’s 1110pm – There was and has never been a question or denial whether “the US state sponsored terrorism of the 19th century” was mass murder – of course it was. Since white man first landed on these shores, and it was clear to the Indians that colonization and their removal was the aim, mass murders were committed by both sides. But there is no debate on who killed whom the most, and with greater efficiency and rapacity.
    As I have pointed out in these pages, since the Renaissance and until the 20th century, the Europeans were undoubtedly the biggest killers of other civilizations in the world. And it was done as matter of national policy as Europe colonized the world. We’re here not talking about the slaughter in European wars, which again is a different topic area of mass death.
    But what PaulE (and similarly minded) fail to understand is that there occurred no such shootings in the wild west (or east) during the 19th century as happened in Newtown. Since, say, the 1960s these modern era shootings have been solitary criminal acts by the mentally deranged or religious zealots, and not executions of public policy by the putatively sane.
    Joining all mass killings under one tent stops any consideration of a specific kind of these atrocities in the hope of understanding them and minimizing their future occurrence. Doing so is another display of dysfunctional reasoning processes that is so common in the public round today, and contributes to inappropriate policy solutions which range from simple silliness to cravenly opportunistic promotions of a political ideology. I will have more to say about this in a future post.

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  19. Ryan Mount Avatar

    What is the equivalence of a state-sponsored, programmatic and systematic 19th century genocide and a school massacre committed by what appears to be an extremely mentally 20 year old? (that’s not a rhetorical question)
    I would have been more interested to see a discussion a tad more relevant, like drone attacks, “smart” bombs, cruise missiles and the casual militarization of our modern culture(Call of Duty 2? Anyone?), than equating the recent events with the 100+ year sadistic policies. For example. why is a hellfire strike that murders children in Pakistan “acceptable,”* and this is not.
    *ignored, really.

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  20. JesusBetterman Avatar

    For “L” about 20 comments back: If musicians could only do one pluck, drumbeat, voice note, trumpet blast, etc per second, music would be pretty boring. Still, using just one pull of the trigger per second can kill sixty people in just one minute. End the myth that semi auto is safe and auto is dangerous.

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  21. JesusBetterman Avatar

    Here’s where the gun deaths are highest and lowest, per 100,000 population:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/

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  22. Paul Emery Avatar

    Ryan
    I repeat, the discussion diverted when George compared modern times with the wild west which he alleges didn’t have mass killers. That necessitated, from Georges view, a distinction and immunity of state sponsored terrorism from the conversation.
    Yes, the random killing of innocents in drone attacks and military strikes on civilians violating sovereign rights of independent nations contributes to the disregard of human life for a glorious cause. Let’s make that part of the discussion.

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  23. Gregory Avatar

    Ryan, the Hellfire strike would have been unacceptable had it been ordered by Bush or Cheney.
    George, IIRC you have something in common with Socrates, who also decryed the deterioration in culture. It’s all downhill. However, there apparently isn’t an uptick in this sort of thing:
    “Grant Duwe, a criminologist with the Minnesota Department of Corrections who has written a history of mass murders in America, said that while mass shootings rose between the 1960s and the 1990s, they actually dropped in the 2000s. And mass killings actually reached their peak in 1929, according to his data. He estimates that there were 32 in the 1980s, 42 in the 1990s and 26 in the first decade of the century.
    Chances of being killed in a mass shooting, he says, are probably no greater than being struck by lightning.” (AP)
    http://www.waff.com/story/20353221/no-rise-in-mass-killings-but-their-impact-is-huge
    Note that ’29 is 5 years before the Feds passed the law controlling the possession of machine guns and banning sawed off shotguns.

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  24. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Is there a difference between mass killings and random mass killings? Was the peak in 1929 due to mobsters gunning each other down ala St. Valentines massacre? I tend to define mass killings as when the victims have been previously selected for a specific reasons versus random killing as when victims are in the wrong place at the wrong time and are victims for no apparent reason. While there is no moral high ground in any murder/killing the collateral victims from attacks that are political in nature are especially heinous. When children get murdered by drones someone makes a conscious decision to put them in harms way for political reasons by supposedly sane people. School shootings and the like seem to me to be the result of a different kind of insanity.

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  25. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 141pm – Excellent and Amen! for “different kind of insanity”. Prognosis for progress is now positive.

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  26. Gregory Avatar

    “Was the peak in 1929 due to mobsters gunning each other down ala St. Valentines massacre?”
    My reading of the quote and the linked article is that it was about random murders, not killings by organized criminals. In addition, 1929 was also before prohibition was repealed.
    Even in Norway, with no right to own firearms and fairly draconian laws restricting their sale and possession, a determined Norwegian bachelor farmer planned a mass execution. If there is a will, a disturbed individual will find a way, and our problem is that loners like this one can go without their families and communities taking effective action to stem such things.
    I find it disturbing how the gun control crowd has been dipping their hands in the blood of children for political reasons before their little bodies were even cold.

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  27. Gregory Avatar

    I wrote, “I find it disturbing how the gun control crowd has been dipping their hands in the blood of children for political reasons before their little bodies were even cold.”
    I want to make it clear that I specifically include the Former Union Editor, Jeff Pelline in that group. He posted “the-gun-lobby-and-the-killing-of-children”, his first on the matter, noontime on Friday, and no, those little kids wouldn’t have been cold yet. Not to mention that there was no good information on what had been happening. Even now, there’s no information from Connecticut law enforcement as to they have learned about the killer’s motivation.

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  28. JesusBetterman Avatar

    Greg again comes out and apparently identifies dead children as a political issue, and one he feels in insolvable. If someone runs amuck at MIT, will you be concerned about the killer’s motivation, and not comment before you find it out? Get real!
    Here’s the bulk of my comments on the issues involved: http://farstars.blogspot.com/2012/12/no-way-to-keep-guns-away-from-mentally.html

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  29. JesusBetterman Avatar

    The eight grade class I was teaching Friday had no trouble identifying the basic outlines virtually immediately. One of the parents called one of the students in total panic. How long did it take Gregory Goodknight to conclude that it had happened pretty much as it was announced in the first couple of hours? One whole day? Three or four days? Or, does he, still not have enough information, to form an opinion? Minds like these lead to these very same tragedies. Total denial, in favor of no gun regulations beyond what we’ve already got, apparently.

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  30. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    re: Michael A at 11:28 – You will notice that I responded to Paul E’s comment that ‘dead is dead’. So I decided to point out who the ‘dead’ are in this country and their numbers. The aborted appear to heavily out number victims of gun violence by several multiples. I realize asking a liberal to use his or her brain is problematic, but one can always hope. Please, Michael, explain how I was trying to ‘diminish’ gun violence? I merely cited statistical facts. The lefties in the LSM and on postings at the Daily Kos, of all places are stacking the childrens’ bodies in order to find something to stand on to vent their anger at the NRA for whatever grievances they have with right wing politics. That is sick, in my opinion.

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  31. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Look, here’s the thing Scott. Paul’s observation that the genocide of the American natives equates with modern gun violence is spot on. This was all explicated in “Bowling for Columbine” in 2002. America is drenched in a culture of extreme violence, and the little children of Sandy Hook, and their teachers, are just so much collateral damage. No different than the drones that deliver violence on the Afghanistan/Pakistan border, Somalia, Yemen, and other third world terrorist hot spots, including all the poor parts of the Middle East. It’s just a machine, a human killing machine, and as long as it stays just under the radar, everything commerce will continue apace. Don’t worry. Be happy.

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  32. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Hey Michael – I thought you were speechless. If you aren’t even going to try backing up your insults, maybe you could at least apologize?
    Next –
    “America is drenched in a culture of extreme violence, and the little children of Sandy Hook, and their teachers, are just so much collateral damage.”
    I just pointed out the single biggest act of ongoing violence in this country in numbers that dwarf the violence against the native population of this country. So, what do we do? We can’t undo what happened in the 1800’s but perhaps we can have a calm discussion of a way forward. How about we affirm the rights and value of all human life? Or shall we continue to legally kill human life we don’t like?

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  33. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Scott,
    I was speechless yesterday. Today I am speechful. I hope you can follow along, it’s really not all that complicated.
    All the women I know support choice in their birth canal and their body. I’ll apologize to you in the nanosecond that you apologize to them for having the temerity to claim to know anything about bearing human life. You’re a man, Scott. You have no standing on the subject.
    We’ve been legally killing human life we don’t like since our inception. I happen to oppose it outside of the womb; for some odd reason you are focused on inside the womb.
    I don’t even really care about agreeing to disagree on this one, your ideal is going away and your entire world view will soon be relegated to the dustbin of history. It is likely that your centuries-long torture of the female spirit will amount to nothing more than a sad asterisk of human failing, much like witch hunts and flat-earth endeavors.
    I don’t know anything about you Scott, in person we might have a grand time together, and find some common ground. But until then, I find yours ideas abhorrent and offensive.
    M.

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  34. Gregory Avatar

    ” the genocide of the American natives equates with modern gun violence is spot on”
    Hardly, though I’m never surprised what Moore thinks he might be explicating. And many of the folks whose forefathers walked here were doing their best to do the same to the folks whose more recent forefathers sailed here.
    George Custer arguably deserved what he got.
    This looked early on to be yet another alienated young man who didn’t fit in, and so far, none of those who follow the credo “Let no crisis go to waste” are working on anything that would stop boys from going Postal. Even DiFi is on it, bringing back a new “assault weapons ban” even though she complained the last was useless because makers kept producing cosmetic variants that met the letter of the useless law.
    Plus, it does now appear only his mom was shot with the gas operated “assault weapon”. All the kids were shot with pistols that are are century old technology. Actually, more like 120 year old technology.
    Mandersonation, you’ll just have to live with the fact there are many who believe abortion is murder, and they have as much a right to believe that and it’s as valid a point of view as yours, or mine. It won’t be going away anytime soon.

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  35. Paul Emery Avatar

    So Scott, are you in favor of criminalizing a woman’s decision to have an abortion? How would that be enforced? Would it be murder? Would doctors be guilty of accessory to murder? Would those who council and advise be guilty of breaking the law as accessory to murder? Who would enforce it- State, local, federal? Fill in some blanks here. Could a husband have his wife or partner arrested and imprisoned if guilty? Would the crime be committed at the moment of conception? Would you banish day after treatments? Would you allow contraception and birth control? So many questions. Help me out here.

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  36. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    DiFi’s assault weapons ban is a non-starter. That is not where this problem will be solved, for a whole lot of reasons.
    And Greg, I appreciate that the abortion issue is not going away anytime soon, and though the wrongly-labeled “pro-life” people have a right to their POV, it has nothing to do with validity. If they can form a nation-state that supports the suppression of women through cynically-labeled “pro-life” legislation, I will gladly support this particular version of the Great Divide.

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  37. Gregory Avatar

    Talk about cynicism… “pro-choice”. Dems are pro-choice on so few things. Why not “pro-abortion, taxpayer paid” or “pro-abortion, to be paid by the insurance policy your employer will be forced to pay for”?
    I’m pro choice on virtually everything, and think for an abortion to be paid by taxpayers, including Todd and Scott, it should be truly life threatening or the result of a criminal sexual assault by the sperm donor. Or by voluntary contributions to a non-profit, perhaps founded by a eugenicist who thought poor black or white babies would be better off dead than alive.

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  38. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Greg’s last comment (11:37) is spot in. It is fascinating that MA and PE will support he killing of a baby in the womb up until birth apparently and shriek for anyone, even a mass murdering scumbag in the gas chamber. Their world i upside down. It has to be odd to be them and know their mom could have booted them into the trash bin from the womb. Amazing! But, my position is and has always been, no taxpayer money. Educate the human race on the value of all life and as Hillary has even said, make abortion few and far between.

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  39. Russ Steele Avatar

    Law professor, gun owner and blogger on the national conversation on guns, which I find my self in agreement:
    SO IF WE’RE GOING TO HAVE A “NATIONAL CONVERSATION ON GUNS,” HERE ARE SOME OPENERS:
    Why do people who favor gun-control call people who disagree with them murderers or accomplices to murder? Is that constructive?
    Would any of the various proposals have actually prevented the tragedy that is the supposed reason for them?
    When you say you hope that this event will finally change the debate, do you really mean that you hope you can use emotionalism and blood-libel-bullying to get your way on political issues that were losers in the past?
    If you’re a media member or politician, do you have armed security? Do you have a permit for a gun yourself? (I’m asking you Dianne Feinstein!) If so, what makes your life more valuable than other people’s?
    Do you know the difference between an automatic weapon and a semi-automatic weapon? Do your public statements reflect that difference?
    If guns cause murder, why have murder rates fallen as gun sales have skyrocketed?
    Have you talked about “Fast and Furious?” Do you even know what it is? Do you care less when brown people die?
    When you say that “we” need to change, how are you planning to change? Does your change involve any actual sacrifice on your part?
    Let me know when you’re ready to talk about these things. We’ll have a conversation.
    Would any of our anti-gun commenter care to address these thoughts?

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  40. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Dear Russ: Don’t you get it by now? We do not care about law, or history or the culture of our nation. All you gun owning right wing crazies are mass murderers. Just bring all your guns down to the foot of Broad Street today so we can package them up and send the to drug gangs in Mexico. We don’t really care if any of the proposals would slow the rate of gun violence, because this is not about saving lives, it is all about stealing your liberty so we can control you and bring in the UN. We believe in blood-libel, because we are evil, hard hearted, monsters, who will seize any political advantage to hurt you. We don’t give a damn for your safety as long as secret police armed guards protect us (including Dianne). None of us know anything about guns, we are totally ignorant, because we grew up in a society (the good old USA) where guns were not present (we never had families, went to the country, hunted, or learned anything about firearms). The murder rate has dropped because our secret plan to drug everyone is working. We don’t give a shyte that of the 600,000 dead from guns in the last 20 years, more than 50% of them were brown. We don’t plan to change at all, we plan to make you change, so we can take our rightful place as your overlord and master (until we invite the Kenyans in to do it).
    No shut up and bring your guns down to the foot of Broad Street today so we can get started!
    There, did you get what you really want instead of what you are pretending you want when you welcome an informed dialogue?

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  41. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    An “assault” weapon is basically a big boy toy. They look really cool/badass but aren’t really the best weapon for a lawful society – maybe they would be advised in a place like Somalia, but not Sonoma. A shotgun is probably all you need for home defense, a bolt action rifle for hunting, and a Glock for your purse and car.
    We already have gun control. What we need is stupidity control. The school shooter’s mom should have kept those guns locked up in a gun safe and not given the combo to her behaviorally challenged son.

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  42. earlcrabb Avatar

    Brad’s comment is spot on, and it was the first thing I thought of as well. Guns should be locked up tight.
    Steve, maybe there can be a conversation when you stop foaming at the mouth. Get a grip, dude.
    DiFi and Co. can do their worst, but unless President O slaps an immediate moratorium on gun sales, you’re going to see a spike in the already-rising market for firearms. And any ban will have about as much effect as those on drugs. They will just become more expensive.
    Funding for mental health services is a good idea, but there is always the possibility that the govt. will hire shrinks who will deem anyone who wants a gun as dangerous. Even paranoids have real enemies, you know.
    We’re walking a slippery slope here. Make sure the safety is on.

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  43. Gregory Avatar

    Steven Frisch, you’re off the deep end. Again. And you’ve made it clear over at Porcine’s that, even before Sen. Feinstein has reintroduced her failed “Assault Weapons Ban”, you’ve announced your intention to go to Washington DC to help lobby for it.
    There are, by some estimates, a gun for every man, woman and child in the US, and clip fed semiautomatic weapons have been available to civilians since the 1890’s, and one clip fed handgun designed and built in the US, first sold 101 years ago is still manufactured and available for sale in Truckee, assuming you have a gun shop. If not, Cabela’s just down the hill will be happy to sell you one and deliver it via the California gun dealer of your choice.
    Russ’ post was fairly accurate, you’re the one who’s being irrational. Have you been drinking the electric koolaid with Keach?
    Regarding school massacres, this one in 1927 killed more kids, and without guns:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
    We have boys going Postal, even without the wretched experience of working at the USPS. We have a problem with how our country is raising our boys in general, and too many with severe emotional problems are falling through the cracks. Something like this happens and the Steven Frisches and Jeff Pelline’s immediately start dipping their hands in the blood of the children not yet cold. Clean yourself off, then talk.

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  44. Gregory Avatar

    Checking Pelline’s sandbox, I see Steven Frisch called me a “twisted soul” who’d made a personal attack on Pelline over here. That “personal attack” was up at 4:45PM where I noted Pelline’s first post on the matter, at noon when the little bodies were still lying in pools of blood, and not about the horror but rather “the gun lobby and the killing of children”.
    Jeff is letting no tragedy go to waste, and neither is Steven Frisch. Get a grip is right.
    For the record, I don’t own any “assault weapons” and I don’t belong to the NRA.

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  45. Gregory Avatar

    “unless President O slaps an immediate moratorium on gun sales, you’re going to see a spike in the already-rising market for firearms”
    Earl, I hope you realize that’s not something the President has the authority to do and you’re just being tongue in cheek.

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  46. L Avatar
    L

    Keach @ 12:20pm- I don’t recall making any comment about safety of semi- vs. full auro weapons. It depends who’s holding the weapon, doesn’t it?
    As for Frisch @ 8:43, we shouldn’t be critical of a man who is only expressing his honest opinion, albeit under the false cover of sarcasm. L

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  47. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    i am amazed at the lack of tolerance that both earl and greg show for sarcasm, since its in the quiver of one as an artist and on the barbed tongue of the other a professional curmudgeon.

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  48. Gregory Avatar

    I am often amazed at Steven Frisch’s intolerance.
    By the way, Stevie, that post of Russ’ you went off on was a bit out of line, but not the way you thought, in that he didn’t make it completely clear which part was a quote. Virtually the whole thing was in fact posted first by a blogger who is a law professor at the University of Tennessee
    http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/159800/
    http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/about/
    Your problem is you can’t recognize rationality even when it jumps up and kisses you on both cheeks.

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  49. earlcrabb Avatar

    Here’s a post from a fellow ink slinger who got caught in the crossfire…the media crossfire, that is…
    http://www.salon.com/2012/12/17/i_am_facebook_friends_with_ryan_lanza/

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