Rebane's Ruminations
December 2012
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George Rebane

As it gathers steam, the national travesty that is Obamacare is now taking big bites out of our nation’s commonweal, and the real tragedy is yet to come.  Since arriving in the dark of night three years ago, it is now morphing into the gigantic puzzle palace that all government programs eventually become.  Obamacare’s puzzle palace is the Health and Human Services Department that now displays a “special combination of rigidity and ineptitude” beyond what was predicted for a program that is supposed to launch and be running by October 2013.

States are shying away from the law’s so-called “clearinghouses” which promise new orders of red tape and government inefficiency.  HHS, that so far has issued more than 13,000 pages of useless regulations, is refusing to answer states’ questions on how they are supposed to manage their ends of Obamacare.  The 14dec12 WSJ reports – 

…  for the better part of a year states and groups like the bipartisan National Governors Association and the National Association of Medicaid Directors have been begging HHS merely for information about how they're required to make ObamaCare work in practice. There was radio silence from Washington, with time running out. Louisiana and other states even took to filing Freedom of Information Act requests, which are still pending.

It is clear that the HHS does not know what it is doing, and is desperately trying to make something up by next October that doesn’t embarrass this administration too much, while forgetting that this administration does not embarrass at all as it staggers toward socialism.

In a word, HHS is treating the states not as the partners it needs to give ObamaCare any chance of success, but as serfs.

Meanwhile, companies are responding by restructuring their workforces, laying people off and making some into part-time employees – anything to escape the latest titan of bureaucratic burdens on our nation’s economy.   And the rest of us pikers are just getting the dribs and drabs of Obamacare’s latest bad news as prescribed by the Pelosi Principle.  It is clear to me that this mess will be way bigger than any of us predicted when that lump of coal arrived in our stocking on Christmas eve three years ago.

H.L Mencken in the 1930s kept a keen and gimlet eye on the mass of bureaucracies launched by FDR’s New Deal, and wondered about the mentality that was behind the onslaught that pushed the nation deeper and deeper into depression until the administration finally threw up its hands and admitted defeat in 1939.  Of this Mencken observed that –

Here is the perfect pattern of a professional world-saver. His whole life has been devoted to the art and science of spending other people's money. He has saved millions of the down-trodden from starvation, pestilence, cannibalism, and worse—always at someone else's expense, and usually at the taxpayer's. . . .
 
Of such sort are the young wizards who now sweat to save the plain people from the degradations of capitalism, which is to say, from the degradations of working hard, saving their money, and paying their way. This is what the New Deal and its Planned Economy come to in practise—a series of furious and irrational raids upon the taxpayer, planned casually by professional do-gooders lolling in smoking cars, and executed by professional politicians bent only upon building up an irresistible machine.

[update]  Newtown, Connecticut elementary school massacre.  This is the latest in a string of such mass shootings that reflect a sign of our times.  In the previous post 'War on Words' where discussion of this tragedy was starting, I posted a comment that in part reads – "… I see much merit in the proposal to permit legal guns in schools so
that such mad shooters don't have a safe environment in which to go on a
serial killing spree. It is today's world, after all.

Rumination – how did we become a world where such mass killings are
becoming so commonplace? And the simple answer that guns are easy to
get today won't wash – today it is harder to get hands on a gun than at
any time in our history.   50 years ago, anyone could have an M-1
semi-automatic carbine or other equivalent weapon(s), and commit similar
atrocities in crowded places like malls, theaters, and schools.  But to
us then it was unthinkable, today it no longer is. What happened?"

Posted in ,

120 responses to “Ruminations – 14dec12 (updated)”

  1. Ryan Mount Avatar

    (cross posting over here, my apologies)
    Oh well, I guess we bring it up.

    are becoming so commonplace
    Are they? I’m not being snarky here. Just asking an obvious question. Anymore than gun violence in other parts of the world? Or is it the scope of the violence and its quasi-terrorist like methods? Could it be that we are more aware of such things given the instant, in-your-face reporting we have now? Could it be that we’re “closer” to the violent acts?
    What happened?
    But let’s assume yes. Some possible answers:
    – Higher populations which means more mentally ill and criminals.
    – Less services for the mentally ill
    – More mainstreaming of mentally ill (this, I understand is a very controversial thing to say) as opposed to locking them up
    – I want to say greater rates of poverty, but poverty is not a causal factor necessarily in gun violence. The vast majority of poor people wouldn’t harm a fly. And frankly the poor, if one believe recent studies, are living relatively high on the hog relative to just a few generations ago.

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  2. Russ Steele Avatar

    These shooters are looking for their 15 minutes of fame. If the press would just list them as shooter X, or shooter Y, and never give their names, then the shooters would be denied their 15 minutes of fame. They will have to seek fame some other way.
    Yes, I know that is impractical but so is banning all guns, which is the is cry going out from the left already. The problem is that banning guns, like in Chicago you end up with one of the highest gun death rates in the nation. In states with ability to carry, there are fewer gun deaths, as the criminals never know who is carrying. According to Drudge Florida CCWs are approaching 1 million. Florida crime rate should be dropping real soon now!

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  3. George Rebane Avatar

    RyanM 251pm – (cross posting most appropriate)
    Agree with you that as population grows, so grows the unhinged side of the distribution of mental stability and the number of such people loose on the streets. Cross posting from ‘War of Words’, I said that “I see much merit in the proposal to permit legal guns in schools so that such mad shooters don’t have a safe environment in which to go on a serial killing spree. It is today’s world, after all.
    Rumination – how did we become a world where such mass killings are becoming so commonplace? And the simple answer that guns are easy to get today won’t wash – today it is harder to get hands on a gun than at any time in our history. 50 years ago, anyone could have an M-1 semi-automatic carbine or other equivalent weapon(s), and commit similar atrocities in crowded places like malls, theaters, and schools. (Even though this one was committed with a couple of semi-auto pistols.) But to us then it was unthinkable, today it no longer is. What happened?”
    My own take for some years has now been that our culture has markedly changed during the last 40 years. Today the solution through massive violence is taught in our news programs, video games, TV, movies, … . Even though the overall gun death rate has been going down, the unhinged are most affected and do come out as today.
    RussS 344pm – Agreed. The deep thinkers of the progressive stripe are already blaring their gun control trumpets which are always at the ready. Their ability to digest facts, and do a smidgeon of critical thinking about such events is essentially absent. But then, saving lives has never been their prime objective in promoting these abridgements of liberties, of which the 2nd Amendment is only one.

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  4. Dave Cranfield Avatar
    Dave Cranfield

    Re: Your Obamacare blurb.
    A friend of mine has a small business in Goodyear, AZ where he is contracted by Buell motorcycles (Harley Davidson) as well as Victory motorcycles to assemble the bikes for western states distribution.
    All of his employees were recently advised they will be terminated on December 31 and re-hired on a one year contractual basis on January 2. All of the employees will be independent contractors, paid on a 1099 basis and be responsible for their own withholding and FICA.
    Their contracted salary will be 22% above what they currently earn. Part of that 22% is an annual raise, the rest is to cover the increase in FICA they must pay as individual contractors.
    This will require each contractor to purchase Obamacare, although about half are covered under their spouse’s medical coverage.
    All 28 employees accepted their contractual status since Buell and Victory contract with this shop on a January to December basis, along with production needs for the year.

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  5. Russ Steele Avatar

    Dave,
    We are going to see more of this independent contractor solution. I will be willing to bet that some bright business types will form independent contractor exchanges where a business can shop online for the talent they need for short term contracts of a year of less. Candidates will register with the exchange and the potential contractor is not going to be interested what Ivy League U the candidates graduated from, but if they have the need skill sets. Skill set can now be developed on the plethora of free university courses that are coming on line. More on this later.

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  6. George Rebane Avatar

    Just finished watching coverage of the shooting on TV (it pre-empted our usual recorded programming). The broadcasted information rate about what really happened is vanishingly low. But the interviews with various ‘experts’, local residents, countrywide reactions, loads of government officials, and the random man on the street are lurid beyond the already high norm. Showing armed and armored SWAT members running hither and yon while other civilians calmly look on and scratch their crotches is a particularly significant part of television journalism. This is what the borderline psychos are fastened on – ‘Look at the national attention that I can garner and create if I do something like this. They’ll be talking about me for years.’
    Krauthammer had the most reasonable reaction (being a psychiatrist), he advised starting the examination with the psychology of this lone shooter, and not diving immediately into the emotional generalizations about new public policy that every media outlet is now trying to hype. Upon reflection, I do think that we have become a nation of childish idiots, and tragedies like this underline the assertion and reinforce the syndrome. Had we been like this during WW2, we’d be speaking German and/or Japanese today.
    A reasonable populace would acknowledge the tragedy from the early reports, and wait for the investigation to produce factual progress. Instead, we demand to be part of the ‘come along and be there’ faction of distant sufferers (in real time over HDMI and stereo). It’s as if we all want to be part of something important at least once in our otherwise dreary lives.

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  7. Russ Steele Avatar

    In July 24, 2011 Norwegian, Anders Behring Breivik was one of the bloodiest murderers in history leaving 93 people dead, shooting them with an assault rifle. He shot dead 93 of young Labour Party members on the island of Utoeya, near Oslo.
    In Sweden, civilians are not allowed to possess automatic firearms. The private possession of semi-automatic assault weapons is permitted only with special authorization. Anders Behring Breivik, as an avid gun user had that authorization, as a member of a gun club.
    So, under the tightest gun control, a mentally disturbed person obtained an assault rifle. A determined person will find and way to obtain the need weapon, regardless of the level of gun control. In Mexico, with very tight gun control, they got the guns they wanted from the US Department of Justice.

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  8. Paul Emery Avatar

    Yes George. If it bleeds it leads. realistically George do you have any ideas how to keep guns out of the hands of psychos?

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  9. Russ Steele Avatar

    Law Professor Glenn Harlan Reynolds, writing at USA Today: Killers aren’t stopped by these policies.
    “After a shooting spree,” author William Burroughs once said, “they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn’t do it.” Burroughs continued: “I sure as hell wouldn’t want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military.”
    Plenty of people — especially among America’s political and journalistic classes — feel differently. They’d be much more comfortable seeing ordinary Americans disarmed. And whenever there is a mass shooting, or other gun incident that snags the headlines, they do their best to exploit the tragedy and push for laws that would, well, take the guns away from the people who didn’t do it.
    There are a lot of problems with this approach, but one of the most significant is this one: It doesn’t work. One of the interesting characteristics of mass shootings is that they generally occur in places where firearms are banned: malls, schools, etc. That was the finding of a famous 1999 study by John Lott of the University of Maryland and William Landes of the University of Chicago, and it appears to have been borne out by experience since then as well.
    In a way, this is no surprise. If there’s someone present with a gun when a mass shooting begins, the shooter is likely to be shot himself. And, in fact, many mass shootings — from the high school shooting by Luke Woodham in Pearl, Miss., to the New Life Church shooting in Colorado Springs, Colo., where an armed volunteer shot the attacker — have been terminated when someone retrieved a gun from a car or elsewhere and confronted the shooter.

    You can read the rest of this reality check HERE: http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2012/12/14/connecticut-school-shooting-gun-control/1770345/

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  10. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 642pm – that is indeed the big question after one of these events. My short answer is NO, their ability to get their hands on guns (or any other means of killing many before being stopped) is a trade-off in a liberal society. Even places with strong gun bans have these events, and places where there is a fully automatic assault gun in every other household have very few or none of these massacres. Fundamentally, I believe culture is a big determinant.
    What freedoms and defense against tyranny do we give up for the siren song of security. Tyrannical governments kill more of their own by the millions than these little (no matter how tragic) massacres we have been having. But for some (many?) it’s OK if the state does the killing wholesale, but a no-no for the occasional private deranged citizen to do it retail.
    As I’ve stated before, I believe that the data amply demonstrate that crime rates (especially violent ones) go down when law abiding citizens are encouraged to carry weapons. Most certainly a mass murderer would have less likelihood of going through a mall/school/theater shooting one after another if there were a couple of legal guns in attendance.

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  11. earlcrabb Avatar

    Legislation born of panic and emotion always works out well, doesn’t it?

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  12. Russ Steele Avatar

    Switzerland, where almost every adult male is legally required to possess a gun. One of the few nations with a higher per capita rate of gun ownership than the United States, Switzerland has virtually no gun crime. Why? Every gun owner is trained in how to use the weapon responsibly.
    Point. The guns used in the Sandy Hook shooting were stolen. It is not clear that the shooter would have met the criteria for the ability to purchase a gun. He was known to have mental problems and would most likely have failed the background check. Speculation.

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  13. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    You can teach, or you can watch for ambush. You sure as hell can’t do both at the same time! If teachers are known to be armed, who will the killer take out first? When a plane crashes and we can’t explain it. we ground the rest of that type, until the situation is at least ameliorated. Ban the sale of all Glocks and SIIGs until new restrictions are in place to at least reduce the l;likelihood of the event recurring. Ban the ammo too to get all of the NRA’s attention focused properly. Buy a gun, leave the government with a $1000 bond. If, a year later you cannot produce the gun for your local sheriff, you forfeit the $1000 into the victims’ fund. Make you think twice about locking it up. Laws can be constructed to make such tragic events less likely. Use your imagination. You can think of any? Use your imagination to imagine YOUR kid or grand-kid killed this way, maybe it will kick in after all. Those who feel as I do outnumber the NRA.
    Been posting this elsewhere all day, where broader audiences see it.

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  14. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    ” fully automatic assault gun in every other household have very few or none of these massacres. ”
    George
    I guess Fort Hood doesn’t count?

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  15. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Stolen from his mom? Ha!
    in RE Russ above.

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  16. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    “These shooters are looking for their 15 minutes of fame. ”
    He’s dead, Russ… (Dr. Keach de Bones)
    He shot himself, how the heck can you claim he’s looking for fame? Tea Bagger Crystal Balls? You credentials as a shrink?

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  17. Gregory Avatar

    ” When a plane crashes and we can’t explain it. we ground the rest of that type, until the situation is at least ameliorated.”
    Bullsh*t.

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  18. Gregory Avatar

    “Switzerland, where almost every adult male is legally required to possess a gun. One of the few nations with a higher per capita rate of gun ownership than the United States, Switzerland has virtually no gun crime. Why? Every gun owner is trained in how to use the weapon responsibly.”
    I also understand virtually every Swiss household has a real assault rifle, or two or three. Fully automatic. Machine guns. And often an arsenal of older bolt or semiautomatic rifles and handguns from earlier ages. Yes, they have to account for their issued ammunition but not to account for its use, but to show they have it in case they’re called into active duty.
    The Swiss don’t screw around.

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  19. Paul Emery Avatar

    So Russ are you proposing we have mandatory gun training for all gun owners like Switzerland?
    Do you think that violent entertainment aggravates the situation? What screening should gun owners be required to have?

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  20. Russ Steele Avatar

    DK@08:05PM,
    Yes, but the shooter made the record books and that may have been his goal, but he fell short of becoming number one. However, it will most likely be much more complicated. Mother loved the students and failed to love the shooter up to his standards, took anger out on his mother and the students she loved. Speculation!

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  21. Russ Steele Avatar

    Paul@08:19
    I would require as a minimum a gun safety course and certification that owner knows how to use the weapon. Growing up my grandfather taught his three grand children gun safety. All four of my daughters were taught gun safety and how to shoot a gun. Every gun owner should have to complete a safety course. The Range does and excellent job.
    All people requesting a CCW permit are required to go through multiple hours of training and certification. Why not people who have guns in their homes? The dangerous thing in the home is a gun in the hands of a person who does not how to use it responsibly.
    “Does violent entertainment aggravates the situation?” I think that shooter games can reduce sensitivity to what it means to kill another human being. I have no data to support that view. It is just a gut feeling.

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  22. Russ Steele Avatar

    Tweet of the day: “So Eric Holder isn’t to blame for Fast and Furious, but the NRA is to blame for school shootings? Got it.”

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  23. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    You can teach, or you can watch for ambush. You sure as hell can’t do both at the same time! If teachers are known to be armed, who will the killer take out first? When a plane crashes and we can’t explain it. we ground the rest of that type, until the situation is at least ameliorated. Ban the sale of all Glocks and SIIGs until new restrictions are in place to at least reduce the l;likelihood of the event recurring. Ban the ammo too to get all of the NRA’s attention focused properly.
    Buy a gun, leave the government with a $1000 bond. If, a year later you cannot produce the gun for your local sheriff, you forfeit the $1000 into the victims’ fund. Make you think twice about locking it up. Laws can be constructed to make such tragic events less likely. Use your imagination. You can think of any? Use your imagination to imagine YOUR kid or grand-kid killed this way, maybe it will kick in after all. Those who feel as I do outnumber the NRA. If a home grown tyrant takes over the government, and controls the USA armed forces, just what chance do you have against them?

    Like

  24. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Here’s another helping for our anal expert: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/962985/posts

    Like

  25. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Every solution here is just shit. So we suddenly criminalize law-abiding gun owners. Or we can’t keep on top of nutsacks who who shoot up schools.
    You know, if the current gun laws were enforced properly, we probably wouldn’t even be having this discussion. So what does that say about our government? And our current laws?
    Shall we pass more laws that can’t/won’t be enforced?
    And are we sure there is some kind of spike in this kind of violence? Are more people dying from gun violence? Why aren’t there massacres like this in inner cities? Probably because no one gives a shit. Just like no one gives a shit when Obama fires hellfires into Yemeni or Pakistani villages. But when it’s a white, middle classers in a quiet suburban community, our sanctimony comes pouring out.

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  26. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    How about if you own a gun, you spend one day a year guarding your local school, for each gun you own?

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  27. Ryan Mount Avatar

    I like that. Or something like that Doug. Some kind of civil service. It’s a little wacky, but us Americans like wacky ideas.
    I bet you’d actually get volunteers for it. If we can do that minuteman thing on the border, surely we can rustle up a few citizens like that for the schools.

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  28. Gregory Avatar

    We have screening for buying guns. In short, you can’t be a felon or be an adjudicated nutcase.
    There’s a constitutional right to own and carry guns. Just as there wasn’t magazine fed firearms in 1776, there also wasn’t fax machines, laser printers or web servers, and those are also covered by an early Amendment.
    Maybe we should just have more gun free zones? A problem with that is that just about all the mass shootings have been in declared gun free zones. Ever wonder why?

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  29. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    ” In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on “Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California,” many straw purchases are conducted in an openly “suggestive” manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.
    The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel’s own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that’s where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.
    According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that “of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime’ of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity.”
    The report goes on to state that “over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs” and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show “Hot Guns” only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.
    Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.”
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html
    How about one day of year for each gun you own, you wind up as a guard for your local school, along with four other similar folks. You each get a watch tower, and the gun is in a case that you can’t open, only the principal can. You control a video cam, and a central security dude watches all four screen and listens to the four of you. Yu can be released with the gun upon a principal pushing a wireless button.

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  30. Gregory Avatar

    Keach wrote the following “When a plane crashes and we can’t explain it. we ground the rest of that type, until the situation is at least ameliorated.”
    I called BS.
    His proof is the following: “The Federal Aviation Administration ordered the immediate grounding of all 222 Learjet Model 45 business jets after discovering that a part in the tail section can fail abruptly”
    Keach, that Learjet grounding was after the opposite of “can’t explain it”. That was a grounding after a fault was FOUND.

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  31. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    So Greg says there is no fault found at the Sandy Hook school, or in the laws supposedly in place to prevent it? Bad case of SPS.

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  32. Gregory Avatar

    No, it’s simpler than that, Keach. Greg says the reality of Keach’s aviation metaphor is exactly the opposite than he was claiming.
    Can Keach name a location of a recent mass shooting that wasn’t in a gun free zone? Virginia Tech, Colorado, now Sandy Hook?

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  33. Gregory Avatar

    “I like that. Or something like that Doug. Some kind of civil service. It’s a little wacky, but us Americans like wacky ideas.”
    Wow, what a concept. Constitutional rights as something you have to earn first. What prior civil service should we require for the granting of a parade permit, or to be able to petition the government for redress? Or owning something really dangerous like a web or ftp server? Laser printer?
    What was the phrase in that schlock treatment of Heinlein’s Starship Troopers… “Service guarantees Citizenship”.
    Just another way to say “ARBEIT MACHT FREI”

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  34. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Own a gun, spend one day each year in a watch tower at a local school, with a gun locked, only releasable by the principal (wireless panic button), along with at least four others like you in other towers. You each get a video cam that feeds to a coordinator and the other towers, and you can chat via intercom. Supposedly gun owners have them to “protect our country” If our elementary kids are not part of our country, then who or what is?

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  35. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Gun Free Zone, did I ever advocate that concept? That’s like Berkeley is a Nuke Free Zone.

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  36. Gregory Avatar

    Ain’t legal, Keach. Most schools are gun free zones and principals can’t have them, either. In fact, some of the principals I’ve met shouldn’t even have them at home.

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  37. Gregory Avatar

    “watch tower at a local school, with a gun locked, only releasable by the principal (wireless panic button), along with at least four others like you in other towers.”
    Behold the ‘educators’ view of the school of the future. A prison.

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  38. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    Nope, merely a compromise, since you take the NRA stance that all is well in the world of laws and guns, and that there is no way to make this country safe for elementary school children.

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  39. Gregory Avatar

    “Nope, merely a compromise, since you take the NRA stance that all is well in the world of laws and guns”
    I don’t take that stance, and neither does the NRA as far as I can tell. But none of your hallucinations improve things, or are constitutional.

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  40. L Avatar
    L

    Let’s, first, get clear on the difference between semi-automatic weapons and automatic weapons, can we? Semis fire every time you pull the trigger; automatics are machine guns- as long as you hold the trigger, they will fire until the ammo runs out(or they jam). Not to make too big a point of this, but it’s actually important to understand the difference. I don’t want to be fending off attackers with a bolt action- do you? Just a sore point with the media idiots, ya’know? Semis are legal,autos are not, and so it should remain. L

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  41. Gregory Avatar

    L, full autos are legal in many states. Nevada is one. There are a number of lfiring ranges in the state that will be happy to rent you one to be Rambo for 30 minutes. For an extra $25, they’ll even sell you a commemorative T shirt you can blast yourself.
    Since the 1930’s, in order for a civilian to own a fully automatic rifle or pistol, you had to be in a state that allowed it, and buy a “tax stamp” from the feds that included the equivalent of a Secret security clearance.
    During the Clinton administration, the number of legally available machine guns, in essence, the number of issued stamps, was frozen. So now, you both need to live in a state where it’s legal and you have to buy the right from an existing holder.
    Such guns have not been legal in California since ’34.

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  42. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    If you try to classify employees as independent contractors, good luck with that. It’s all about who is directing their work. Sounds like in the motorcycle factory cited by Dave’s friend, the owner is still directing the work. Which means he will lose a costly court case and his business will fail. Another business will take his place, a grownup business, and all will be right with the world. Next case.

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  43. Paul Emery Avatar

    George, most mass shooters are essentially on suicidal adventures so I don’t know how armed school yards would deter them. Who do you propose would be the armed ones and what training would they require?

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  44. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 919am – “armed school yards”? Not sure what straw man you’ve erected this time for your counter. But having legal guns (CCW) in public places will most certainly force any attacker, suicidal or not, to rethink their chances for success since he will then know that there is a high likelihood that he will be opposed and not entering shooting gallery (aka ‘gun-free zone’).
    For gun handling the training would be similar to that required for a CCW in most California counties. For in-facility response tactics, the school would call in the local constabulary and its SWAT arm to develop a plan particular to the facility. What we are trying to overcome here is the situation ‘when seconds count, the police are minutes away’.
    But any such answer in this forum would necessarily be less than comprehensive and incomplete, and subject to touchy-feely pot shots. Fire away.

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  45. Joe Koyote Avatar
    Joe Koyote

    Can anyone imagine what would have happened in the Batman theater shootings if armed civilians in a darkened room just started shooting? Arming the populace and turning back the clock to the wild west doesn’t seem that viable. If the austerity freaks get their way, it won’t matter because the only people with guns will be the bad guys and lunatics because there won’t be any police or teachers in the public arena. The wealthy will tuck themselves behind the gated communities with their private police and fire services and publicly financed private voucher schools in bunkers while the rest of us fight it out in the streets.

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  46. Russ Steele Avatar

    JoeK@11:07
    “Cinemark doesn’t allow anyone other than law enforcement officers to carry legal firearms in their theaters. ”
    Do you think maybe that was one of the decision points that the Batman Shooter took into account. Theater was a gun free zone. Well accept for the guns the Batman shooter brought to the theater.
    Every issue of the NRA Magazine has multiple report of how armed citizens have thwarted gun totting criminals with their CCW weapon. Stories that are never printed in the lame stream press. We only hear about the shooting of unarmed citizens in gun free zones. Why is that?

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  47. George Rebane Avatar

    JoeK 1107am – Ah yes, the wild west response to the shooter where bullets are flying all over the place in every direction – a favorite repartee from the left. A moment’s thought would tell you that it wouldn’t happen, and if an innocent did get hit by a legal gun it would be no more frequent than similar incidents arising from police and military rescues in such situations.
    Police used to huddle behind police cars waiting for the National Guard when there was shooter in a building. The Israelis demonstrated that this was a dumb tactic if you wanted to minimize the loss of life. The proper response is to charge in there rapidly and disorient/engage the shooter and kill him quickly. Our police have been retrained to do exactly that today – you don’t wait, you go in like Marshall Dillon with guns blazing.
    In your case, theaters are not dark rooms but semi-lit with everyone’s eyes adapted to the ambient light level. Once the shooting started, everyone would get down except the shooter (recall the last theater incident), who has to stand up to move and do his killings. What a target for a legal gun or two.
    What few people realize is that the “wild west”, and for that matter, the more sedate east were free of such mass shootings. No community would put up with gunmen who attempted to terrorize a community like in the movies. There was one recorded case in Minnesota where that was attempted, the local citizens immediately dispatched them, and their stripped to the waist bodies, full of bullet holes, were ensconced in coffins and on display in front of the local undertaker within the hour. In those days most proper gentlemen, and many ladies, carried a small concealed firearm. Anybody in a public place who wantonly pulled a gun and started shooting would and were brought down very quickly.

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  48. Paul Emery Avatar

    Geoge
    “What few people realize is that the “wild west”, and for that matter, the more sedate east were free of such mass shootings.”
    Of course you don’t include the mass killings of men women and children conducted against Native American communities. You seem to have a double standard here. Mass killing is mass killing.
    “Jesus don’t like killing no matter what the reason for”
    John Prine from his song “Your Flag Decal Wont Get You Into Heaven Anymore”

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  49. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    PaulE, why do you discount the mass killings of pioneers and settlers in the East (before and during the French and Indian War). There wwere many massacres by tribes and they killed and scalped men, women and children. Do you have justifications for them PaulE?
    I do believe if a couple of people had a weapon in the Batman theater murders, the man may have killed fewer people. But the press would turn that victory of less dead into a “golly”, how many would have survived reversal of logic.
    The school murdering scumbag apparently gained possession of his guns illegally. If a teacher had a pistol maybe those precious babies would be alive. I am praying for those little tikes. GOD BLESS the children.

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