Rebane's Ruminations
November 2012
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The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. Chinese proverb

George Rebane

This important topic was resurrected in a comment thread under ‘Happy Thanksgiving – 2012’.  Two readers voiced strong opinions (one with cited evidence) that our freedoms have increased.  One reader disputed that, and I join in that dispute.  I believe evidence abounds that will support the case that we are less free today than we were fifty years ago.  However, the issue has complexities that compel exploration as our governments’ scope and reach continues to grow, and doubly so given the consequences of the last two national elections that are propelling us toward autocratic collectivism (redundancy intended) at an ever faster pace.

First of all, freedom has more than one dimension, made up of more than one factor, or what is technically known as being composed of multiple attributes.  For example, under one form of governance we can be totally free to have sex with chickens at public gatherings, but not free to select and place ceiling lights in our new kitchen.  There are behaviors and things I may want to do to express my understanding of individual freedoms, things which may be of no interest or import to you, and vice versa.  The point here is that different people, maybe based on their education, culture, life experiences, etc will measure freedom and personal liberty quite differently.

There is no absolute measure of freedom.  The closest social organization that attempts to define a broadly accepted and ubiquitous environment for liberty is the US Constitution.  But even before it began to be amended, the Founders admonished us with caveats as to what kind of populace the document would successfully serve.  Time has proved them to have been right.

The problem, of course, arises when such people with disparate views and beliefs are forced to live cheek-by-jowl, and worse, if one cohort wants and is able to proscribe what is dear to the other.


As a personal vignette, my family’s path up the economic ladder would have been either grossly delayed, stunted, or made impossible had we been burdened during the 1950s with the laws, regulations, and ordnances that are common fare today.  (This alone can explain away the decrease in social mobility in the US.)  Being capable in many trades, my parents moved us into houses that required more than a little loving to make them presentable.  We all worked in the most expedient manner possible to bring the dwellings up to middle class standards.  As long as you were working on your own residence, permits with their applications, costs, and delays ranged from optional to unheard of.

In exurban Indianapolis boys going into the nearby woods with their 22s or 410s were a most unremarkable sight.  Plinking in the back yard was an irritant to neighbors only if it went on too long, and that was settled with a neighbor-to-neighbor phone call.  In Los Angeles, as long as you didn’t violate the open fire restrictions during fire season, you could walk into any of the surrounding mountains with your sleeping bags (and gun), and have a campout.  The Mojave Desert and the High Sierra were open lands that really did belong to the people.

In this debate we have to be careful not to be diverted by the ‘would you either have this or that’ argument.  These are simply specious.  Nobody wants to go back to a past that also had parts that were clearly improvable.  Breaking up Ma Bell and being able to own your own phones did not require us to give up a bushel load of freedoms; we could simply have broken up the telephone oligopolies.  And deregulating trucking and airlines did not require the restricting of access to federal lands.

So the argument really comes down to what kinds of freedom were important in the lifestyles and daily round of Americans, not whether some obscure federal banking regulation was in force or not.  The entrepreneurship and individual enterprise evident in the immediate decades after WW2 are unmatched anywhere in the history of economic and personal freedoms.  A library of tomes has been written in recent years about how these have been circumscribed and/or lost.  Some factors, in no particular order, to consider about the last 50 years.

1.    The number of laws, ordnances, regulations, fees, taxes, … by any count has increased without bound, all limiting what we can do and how we may do what remains.
2.    Entire departments of government have begun deporting themselves as rogue fiefdoms not answerable to either legislatures or the voters – e.g. IRS, EPA, HHS, California’s ARB, … .  Read about the new “regulatory flood” on the way.
3.    Even organized socialists argue we now have less freedom from their own interesting perspective.
4.    Then there are conservatives like Jonah Goldberg who argue that we are now more free.  The easy criticism of this stance is found here.
5.    Many laws continue on the books prohibiting free trade from shoes to sugar, more on the way as ‘exporting jobs’ becomes harder for private firms.
6.    Assimilaton of immigrant populations has diminished, today multiple cultures in America seeking more autonomy.  Government’s response is to replace cultural norms by government pan-cultural edicts enforced by its gun.
7.    Meanwhile the government grows more and more afraid of an armed American citizenry, and is doing everything possible to roll back the ownership and use of firearms.  California leads the way.  Public schools no longer teach that the prime purpose of gun ownership was to oppose government tyranny, not duck hunting.
8.    Fed agencies and departments are arming themselves against US citizens, expecting massive civil unrest beyond the power of local constabularies to control.  Why?  (BTW, did everyone see the first public use of the new massive urban assault vehicles during the Sandy recovery efforts on Fox News?  (RR reported here.)
9.    Double jeopardy is now commonplace in our judicial system (criminal then civil suits, multiple times).
10.    Criminalizing formerly normal/legal behaviors with examples: ongoing switch from civil to criminal laws to punish behaviors (here).
11.    Abuse of the Patriot Act outlined here.
12.    Numerous institutional indexes on economic and personal freedoms show US being downgraded over recent years. Economic freedoms decline here, and on Cato, and on Heritage, and in the UN index of personal freedoms US ranks 13th already in 1991, on the World Liberty Index 2006, and on the World Liberty Index 2012

Posted in , , ,

83 responses to “Are We More or Less Free?”

  1. MikeyMcD Avatar
    MikeyMcD

    “I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.” Thomas Jefferson
    The proliferation of taxation is enough to prove the ever-decreasing personal liberty (income, property, cigs, soda, permits, fire taxes, gas tax, assessments, etc etc etc).
    The average American probably breaks multiple laws every single day (everything from what milk you are permitted to drink to installing a new water heater). God forbid they ever get equipted to enforce all the laws on the books.
    The regulations/taxes have dowsed many entrepreneurial flames (speaking for myself), it’s a damn shame.

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  2. George Rebane Avatar

    MikeyMcD 540pm – your point is a good one. In talking to law enforcement officers, they uniformly agree that they now have the ability to literally arrest anyone for an infraction of some code of which the victim was unaware. This is used as kind of ‘banked reserve’ by local district attorneys to insure cooperation and compliance from those in public who come to their attention.
    Akin to this has been the practice by corrupt police departments to always carry small bags of illicit drugs and ‘throw away’ (i.e. untraceable) handguns in squad cars. You never know when you need to haul someone in or simply kill them, and then walk away with a justifiable cause report.

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  3. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Do you find it ironic that the countries ahead of us in the “Freedom ” index are b y your defnation all socialist countries with high taxation and national health care systems?
    Top 10 the UN index. They are all pretty similar.
    Sweden
    Denmark
    Netherlands
    Finland
    New Zeland
    Austria
    Norway
    ) France
    West Germany
    Belgium

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  4. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Mr. Paul E: good point. The Top 10 are all countries of Northern Europe founded on the Judea-Christian Tradition, aka Western Civilization. Wonder how France sneaked in?

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  5. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 614pm – You’re putting the question to the wrong person instead of answering it yourself. Yes, how come we have sunk so low?

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  6. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “free” according to the UN? You must be joking. Those countries are highly restrictive in so many ways. Just try to buy and use a fire arm in any of those countries. Free to wear any color of chains you chose would be more like it. George has hit the important point about being free to better your self financially – much less free now than 40 years ago. I have some books about folks that made their own homes from scavenged materials for little or nothing. Many were in California. They were works of art and safe to live in. All completely outlawed by the powers that be. Of course, once inside a dwelling, you now have the freedom to have sex with almost any object of your imagination. Which of these ‘freedoms’ contributes more to the well being of the average person? The middle class has cut it’s own throat wide open and will bleed to death slowly. The 50’s were far more free wheeling and wide open than now, even though the revisionists portray it other wise.

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  7. Paul Emery Avatar

    Unless you were black in the South or Gay anywhere
    Th reference the UN was from George.
    ” Numerous institutional indexes on economic and personal freedoms show US being downgraded over recent years. Economic freedoms decline here, and on Cato, and on Heritage, and in the UN index of personal freedoms US ranks 13th already in 1991, on the World Liberty Index 2006, and on the World Liberty Index 2012.”

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  8. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Freedom lost and losing freedoms. All my adult life I have had this feeling of doors closing behind me. Do something and a couple months later it is banned or a Do Not Enter sign is put up. Too many examples to bore you with. I agree with Dr. Rebane that it is not a zero sum gain. My loss of freedoms does not equate to another gaining more freedoms.

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  9. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    I don’t care who references the UN – they are a joke. Nothing more than a bloated bureaucratic bunch of toadies squabbling over money conned out of the nations that pay into the kitty. If they ever audited that bunch, the jails would fill. The UN’s notion of freedom is how much ‘stuff’ the govts give for ‘free’. Have you ever looked at the list of govts that they put in charge of human rights? Collectively, the UN is terrified of personal freedom. Paul’s reference to the ‘blacks in the south’ is another joke. You need to be educated, there, son. Talk to blacks that lived in the fifties in the north. And the wonderful unions that existed to block non-white males from getting jobs. Less unions=more personal freedom. Yes – we are somewhat more free now than in the fifties, but in many other ways that are important to bettering yourself financially we are far less free. Sex seems to be of far more importance to the left than a vibrant economy. And it shows. We are free to have naked folks parading in the streets, but it’s so much harder to start and run an honest business than ever.

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  10. Russ Steele Avatar

    From Drudge: LAND OF THE FREE:
    •Woman detained for riding manatee…
    •Man Jailed Four Days for Recording Cops…
    •Company fires 150 employees for not getting flu shots…
    •School District Requiring Students To Wear Microchips To Track Every Move…
    •Palm scanners in schools, hospitals…

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  11. Gregory Avatar

    Russ, are you claiming the government should have forced that health care employer to not require influenza vaccinations provided at no cost to the employee, and all would be more free if that was the case?
    Curious.

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  12. Gregory Avatar

    And you are the same Russ S. who recently lambasted Telestream for not forcing their employees to pee in a cup regularly?
    BTW Ryan’s alma mater is forming the first pot institute:
    http://www.bigstory.ap.org/article/college-launches-research-institute-devoted-pot

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  13. Bill Tozer Avatar
    Bill Tozer

    Hey, no more betting on who will be the next President or whether we will fall off the fiscal cliff, nor perhaps even a gentleman’s bet for dinner or a donation to the charity of the winner’s choice. It could be commodity in the bureaucratic language our public servants utter and babble endlessly. May incur the wrath of The Great White Father in Washington.
    http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/11/26/government-crushes-innovative-online-prediction-market

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  14. George Rebane Avatar

    BillT 1117am – Yes, they are steadily and stealthily closing in on the home of the brave and land of the free. All the idiots’ happy dancing on the side, the next four years should be a doozy.

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  15. Paul Emery Avatar

    Funny thing George, my friends in Denmark, Belgium and West Germany are quite happy with their freedoms. They at least don’t have to worry about losing their homes if they become moderately ill.

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  16. Paul Emery Avatar

    You’re getting pretty desperate Russ to using Drudge as you’re news source. Russ Steele | 25 November 2012 at 10:15 PM Can you find something more credible to back up you’re claims

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  17. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    I believe we should all do voluntary drug testing. Yes, every citizen should pee in a jar and send it to Eric Holder with our name on it.

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  18. Ryan Mount Avatar

    No one every complains about Humboldt State when they need their forests managed or their fisheries tended to. It’s not all tree-sitters and huggers up there, ya know. There are students and faculty who actually take their mission seriously.
    But I’m not surprised that HSU is embarking on a Pot curriculum. Complete with cross disciplinary Sociology units as well. I get to design the course:
    Sociology 302, Altruism and dope: Hey man, it’s like, ya know, we’re not gonna win if everyone doesn’t win. Ya know? 100 monkeys and all that stuff.

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  19. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1150am – That little party has been going on for too long, as EU countries who have borrowed their way into socialist happy land are now realizing. Now they are queing up for bailouts at the ECB ‘Print-a-euro’ window. Denmark and Norway have special problems with their brain trust emigrating; no one wants to start a new business in those countries. I wonder why.
    And speaking of nationalized healthcare; anyone want to make any kind of a wager on the cost and service and inclusionary coverage of Obamacare? Those who thought healthcare was expensive before, haven’t seen anything yet. Wait until it becomes the most expensive healthcare in the world with waiting lines that last into years. Black market doctoring will soon make us look back fondly on the old days of coat hanger abortions. How many physicians and other healthcare professionals do you know who are planning on retiring as soon as possible?
    The measurables to keep an eye on are US death rates (leading indicator) and average lifetime. We will not have the nice cushions that the European socialists had to dull the impact of stupid public policies. As someone said, elections have consequences.

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  20. Gregory Avatar

    George, I think the philosopher-comic PJ O’Rourke said it best back in the HillaryCare days:
    “If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it’s free.”
    The last time I can recall a legislative body reforming an industry in its own image was when California decided to create a “market” in electrical energy. That really worked out great… for Enron and others who were gaming the very flawed system.

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  21. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 225pm – Excellent point. If ever there was “a very flawed system” to be gamed, Obamacare is it. The whole mess will be a tort lawyers dream. And the drug wars will be joined by the healthcare wars as the feds start going after black market practitioners.

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  22. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    What you visualize as the future of Europe is a theory, nothing more. There are many competing ideas with substantial details to challenge you. It works for your gallery though.
    AS you know we already spend the highest percentage of our GDP of any measurable system in the world. Denmark is around 6% ours is 18 and growing. How can we brag a bout preserving what we have. Most of what you say is the future according to George. Show me one example of a health care system in the world today that is close to what you support and I’ll give it a serious look.
    I am not a supporter of Obamacare, It’s way too messy. The only viable option is some kind of single payer insurance for all. If you want fancy stuff like a nose job, tummy tuck or detachable sexual components you’re on your own.

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  23. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 449pm – All visualizations of the future can be classed as theories, mine among them. However, I do have quite a coterie of distinguished like minded thinkers. Again, only in the hills of Nevada County are my thoughts taken as somehow fringe and speaking only to my “gallery”. So be it, I cannot educate them all.
    Making a healthcare system into a commons is an unsustainable solution, especially if it keeps eating up an ever greater fraction of your GDP; even as you continue borrowing money and depleting your fortunate offshore natural resources to make up your deficits. These are factors that have long been ignored by progressives – as evidence I even offer these humble pages.

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  24. Gregory Avatar

    I’ve known a number of Nordic economic immigrants in tech, but I’ve not seen any great evidence that either Denmark or Norway is particularly hard hit.
    One thing I have gotten from my Danish drinking buddies is a sense they’d never put up with the sort of institutional incompetence that we do; for example, primary and secondary school teachers aren’t pulled mainly from the bottom half of the academic barrel.

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  25. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    Very true. In Denmark. where I have spent nearly 8 months playing music, public servants are the best educated and qualified among the workforce. They have very little graft or corruption and are highly respected. Teachers are honored and financially rewarded. The culture is so much different than ours. For example there is no difference between public and school buses. Kid ride to school in the same vehicles that bring people to work.
    George, the health care systems in Europe have had a much more stable relationship with the GDP than ours. How do you explain that?
    You believe that national health care will lead to a shortage of doctors and workers but that does not seem to be true. Can you explain your rationale for your opinion? This is not theoretical.
    This is from Forbes. http://www.forbes.com/2009/09/02/healthcare-spending-europe-business-healthcare-gdp.html
    “A look at how the U.S. ranks against 10 of the top health care spenders in Europe shows that America, with its heavily privatized health care system, spends roughly one-third more than some of the most free-spending European systems. But the U.S. stills has fewer practicing physicians per 1,000 people than many Continental European countries. We based our numbers on 2007 data from the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, except where specified……..The French and Germans visit doctors more often than in the U.S. or U.K. The average number of annual doctors’ visits is 6.3 in France and 7.5 in Germany, compared to 3.8 in the U.S. and 5 in the United Kingdom, according to the OECD.”

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  26. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, the Danes are an old and homogeneous culture with their own strengths and weaknesses.
    Take education: I remember my late first wife, after she’d earned her credential to teach math in California secondary schools, after a career in applied math and engineering, being told by Nevada County’s beloved County Education Superintendent Terry McAteer in a group meeting for new teachers that the local schools like their new teachers “young and stupid”. Somehow, I can’t see such a mendacity being thought in Denmark, let alone uttered and tolerated.
    Why American bureaucracies like education tend towards dysfunction is beyond my desire to pontificate over at the moment, but giving them more money and power is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.

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  27. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Paul is on the right track here. Lack of efficiency is the biggest problem with healthcare delivery systems in the US today. It is not a results oriented system. This is the main reason we pay almost twice as much as every other first world country.
    We had to involve the insurance companies in some kind of solution to the efficiency problem (which is primarily due to the insurance industry–irony alert!). Thus, PPACA. But single payer is the ultimate goal, and don’t let a healthcare reformer tell you otherwise.
    We’re making great progress so far, after many years in the desert.

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  28. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Trial lawyers and defensive medicine techniques. Whiny, sue happy Americans, baby boomers afraid to die. Our system was the best but the above have made it costly and unworldly. Oh, and the thousands of rules and regulations our beloved governments place on the insurance companies and the deliverers. These are the reasons it is so expensive. But hey, if you lovelies on the left think the very source of the problems (government) is the solution then I suggest you go try and move through the DMV lines for a new license. The blinders on the leftwing are super glued on.

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  29. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Why should our government be any less beholden to the Peter Principle?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle
    Our government (the military is a good example of this) has attempted to mitigate the Peter Principle with the extensive use of contractors. So now we have the PPACA, legislation that was ostensibly written by the Insurance Industry. It’s a “partnership,” if you will, between government and big business. And if we are indeed on our way to a single payer plan (I believe as most do that we are), then we the Peter Principle will be in full swing with the government.
    The comparisons or Northern European countries, as an example, to ours is really a non-starter for the what Greg mentioned above: these societies are basically homogenous. The USA is a gorgeous mess malcontents. Do note that as these same countries have liberalized their populations, they are experiencing significant fiscal and cultural tensions. France is a good place to start the discussion.

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  30. George Rebane Avatar

    RyanM restates the point made countless times here. Things change for the worse when multi-culturalism results in an unassimilated population. Europe is beginning to experience this in spades, and national leaders now regularly point this out after Merkel had the guts to speak out.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/10/merkel-mulitkulti-doesnt-work.html
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/10/multikulti-and-people-like-me.html
    An excellent view of how the British socialized medicine works is seen in the very entertaining BBC series ‘Doc Martin’. A little thought while watching, and the light comes on quite brightly why the National Health Service and every other European socialist healthcare system is headed for a Soviet style wreck.

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  31. Gregory Avatar

    Another entertaining series is on Netflix, “Lillyhammer”, created by a couple Norwegians joined by E Street Band and Sopranos actor Steven Van Zandt. Not much reality (everything breaks Gianni “Johnny Boy” Henrikson’s way after Witness Protection sends him to Lillehammer at his request) other than a look at the petty misuse of coersive power by minor government employees that I’m guessing rings a bell with the locals.
    One Danish friend of mine moved back to Copenhagen for a couple years with his American wife. Their kid didn’t speak much Danish at 5 years old but not to worry. No bilingual ed there, they were thrown into a Danish immersion like everyone else and did OK. The Danes like hearing Danish on the streets.

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  32. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    You continue to ignore the fact that European health care systems offer more comprehensive care than we we currently have here. Despite your grim theories about the future with Obamacare those ramblings don’t match up with current reality. Please revisit my earlier posting.
    Paul Emery | 27 November 2012 at 06:20 PM
    By any standard our system does not match up and you offer no alternatives that are practiced anywhere in the modern world.

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  33. themikeymcd Avatar
    themikeymcd

    I will be ‘that guy’ that points out that our health care system is already ‘nationalized’ due to the fact that Medicare is HUGE (approx 1/3 of a multi-trillion dollar mkt).
    So is education… don’t get me started.

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  34. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 219pm – I think that this exchange is fast coming to an end since it is a much circled barn. You talk of “more comprehensive care” that is being rolled back everywhere as the unsustainability of current programs is now apparent to (almost) eveyone.
    The “grim theories” that you continue to attribute to me alone are shared now by millions of aware and thinking people around the world. And I don’t need to offer any of additional alternatives that I have offered here many times before, and that you continue to ignore. Opposing a cobbled together a fly-by-night monstrosity that is Obamacare, does not automatically encumber the critic to having also present a fully-fleshed alternative that is subject to a thousand questions, none of which can yet be answered by the proponents of Obamacare.

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  35. JesusBetterman Avatar

    George Rebane | 24 November 2012 at 06:03 PM
    Most realistic description of reality ever by George!
    Oh those BAD Unions and their discriminations!
    Care to examine all of the race clauses implemented by builder developers and realtors that existed in California all the way up into the 1950’s?

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  36. George Rebane Avatar

    JesusB 537pm – what is your point about the past advising our present – revenge?

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  37. Gregory Avatar

    George, there is no point.
    Mikey, between Medicare and Medicaid, health care has been over 50% socialized for awhile, and the escalating costs for the young and non-indigent are partially due to government paid care being “negotiated” to a point below the cost to provide.

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  38. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    We are talking about very real human needs here not some kind of luxury. There are millions of uninsured men woman and children with no health care other than the emergency room who cannot own a home without risk of losing it after a medical emergency. We are talking about people who cannot start a business because they are dependent on insurance from a current job that they will not be able to have if hey go into business on their own due to pre existing conditions.
    You don’t offer even an approximation of a plan based on any system in the entire world and you claim that is a popular belief that all national health care systems are unsustainable and that is apparent to “almost everyone”. Really ! Can you at all document that or is it just another theory? Did you at least read the Forbes article cited earlier ?
    http://www.forbes.com/2009/09/02/healthcare-spending-europe-business-healthcare-gdp.html
    Recently an unemployed friend of mine lost their last $20,000 in savings because they had an emergency ambulance ride and one night in the hospital. That was the bill and their entire savings was drained. That’s our system as it exists today and there is not one country in the modern world whose citizens would receive such treatment.
    Go on and on with your theories but this is real and happening in our community. Can you not offer some ideas that may provide relief?

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  39. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, being tied to an employer for healthcare isn’t a result of a free market, it’s an unintended side effect of health care benefits not being wage controlled during WWII wage and price controls, and not being a taxed “fringe benefit” in the seven decades ever since.
    It’s been government that’s been cocking it up for the better part of a century.
    Preexisting conditions could be handled like any other insurance… if you were covered when you were diagnosed, it’s covered going forward. And if it wasn’t for California not allowing insurance being sold without coverage for that preexisting condition, you could still buy affordable insurance for everything else.
    Imagine risk pools being the size of congressional districts, not small businesses.

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  40. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 840pm – apparently you didn’t read to the last paragraph of your own link – that’s where the unsustainable part comes in. The current status of doctor visits per year etc are meaningless in this discussion. As meaningless as your confusion of the overall fiscal strategy for supporting nationalized healthcare with the typical (and somewhat tedious) recounting of the inevitable anecdotal miseries.
    Among the most curious aspects of your reasoning is the requirement that any new approach to solving an unsolved problem requires that there exists precedent for its solution. And absent that, any suggested new solution will therefore not work. My field and career would have been impossible with those self-imposed impediments in place.
    For the new reader, I maintain that there is no extant feasible solution for sustainable healthcare that adheres to the acceptable standards to which we have become accustomed. Obamacare in full bloom is an atrocious attempt at aping the worst of socialized medicine.
    Without wholesale regulatory rollbacks, massive revision of our tort laws to dampen predatory litigiousness, AND a total rewrite of our tax code, there will be nothing that approaches sustainable universal healthcare in America. Attempts like Obamacare just accelerate the destruction of our national fisc.
    And the denigration of these thoughts as being idle and isolated “theories” while Obamacare (or any other European socialized healthcare) is some sacrosanct solution engraved on stone tablets is beyond ludicrous, as the deluge of daily evidence on international bankruptcies continues to pour in, and America’s real debt (as reported in my post) is yet to be plumbed.

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  41. JesusBetterman Avatar

    George 6:09 pm I was referring way back in this thread to:
    “And the wonderful unions that existed to block non-white males from getting jobs. Less unions=more personal freedom. Yes – we are somewhat more free now than in the fifties, but in many other ways that are important to bettering yourself financially we are far less free. Sex seems to be of far more importance to the left than a vibrant economy. And it shows. We are free to have naked folks parading in the streets, but it’s so much harder to start and run an honest business than ever.
    Posted by: Scott Obermuller | 25 November 2012 at 08:38 AM “

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  42. Paul Emery Avatar

    RE: Gregory | 28 November 2012 at 08:39 PM
    You can add to the government tab retired military and government (federal, state and local) workers. It’s the self employed and unemployed that cannot afford current insurance if it’s even available. Gregory, if government paid care is “negotiated” to a point below the cost to provide why is health care 18% of the GDP, the highest in the world. Who is making all the money?
    By the way tort reform is not an issue in most countries with national health care. It is virtually impossible to sue providers. It is an essential ingredient in any national health care system.

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  43. Paul Emery Avatar

    So George, in the meantime its emergency room or bankruptcy health care for over 40 million Americans.
    Of course I read the end of my link. The article presents a pragmatic view of the challenges and strengths of national health care systems in Europe but in no way presents the draconian view you espouse. Of course all healthcare for all is not sustainable but reasonable healthcare is. This is the quote that you claimed stated unsustainability. Where does it say that?
    “As faster medical development occurs, the more pressing issue is the question of who is going to pay for it and who will benefit,” says Mazda Adli, director of the Mood Disorders Research group at Charite-Universitatsmedizin in Berlin. Charite is hosting a World Health Summit next month. Among the many topics to be discussed: How do health care systems cope with medical progress?”

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  44. TheMikeyMcD Avatar
    TheMikeyMcD

    Paul, your faith in government regarding government health care is scary. You of all people must see the atrocities provided by government (war on drugs, medicare’s negative impact on existing health care system, war in general, piss-poor educational system, etc).
    For the life of me I cannot find ANY reason to trust the largest, most corrupt, mismanaged, most bureaucratic entity on the planet with the power you are eager to relinquish to the US government. I certainly don’t want government central planning my health (physical and financial).

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  45. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1047am – Amen to Mikey’s 1058am, to which I would also point you to my 918am comment on ‘Owing $100T+ …’
    Meanwhile all Europe’s countries are continuing to define down “reasonable healthcare” as they face mounting deficits and bankruptcies. You and yours do actually remind me of someone sending out invitations and organizing a string quartet on the afterdeck of the Titanic as its bow is already low in the water. Your inability to understand unsustainability is the common denominator of what has gotten all collectivized enterpises that ignore the commons into trouble.

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  46. JesusBetterman Avatar

    Piss poor educational system comes from kids attending who are raised in piss poor families, by parents receiving piss poor wages, from stinking rich employers. Any further questions?

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  47. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Is emergency room healthcare for 48 million Americans sustainable? Is bankruptcy for minor surgery sustainable? What did the Repubs propose when they held the cards?

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