Rebane's Ruminations
October 2012
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George Rebane

In presidential debates I haven’t seen a better performance than Romney’s since Reagan took the stage in the 1980s.  While everyone and their brother is publishing voter sentiments on the debate, Gallup is strangely silent.  It’s as if the debate never happened when you look at their website.  I was hoping to use their poll to adjudicate a prediction competition (see ‘Prognosticators – An invitation to the dance’). The clearest voter sentiment poll comes from CNN with 67% saying Romney won, and 25% saying Obama won last night’s debate.


But what interests me most is the copy put out by many pundits this morning on the nature of the debate.  The consensus there seems to be that the debate was a bit too obtuse with numbers and facts and all those specifics.  This is a bit troubling, because it is a commentary on what the electorate really understands about how the country works.

I look at three levels of ‘information’ that candidates can deliver in such debates.  The most detailed is the kind that Romney mostly, but also Obama, delivered last night.  Going into specific dollar amounts, time periods, tax rates, and growth rates that decorated their plans and with which they painted their opponents plans.  This approach assumes that the listeners have some basic matrix of knowledge ready to receive, organize, and then communicate the whole as all the numbers are hung in their proper places.

The next lower level of specificity is the declaration of their individual futures in broad adjectival terms like ‘full employment’, ‘more rapid growth’, ‘balanced budgets’, ‘tax breaks for the wealthy’, ‘level playing field’, and so on.  These are formed into arguments and counter arguments salutary to oneself, and showing the opponent in the worst light.  The strength of this debate format is all in the delivery, and the emotions evoked in the listener.  Unless there is a surprising one line zinger, the results are primarily determined by the strength of what behavioral economists and psychologists call confirmation bias (q.v.).  Basically, both candidates deliver big dollops of pabulum hoping that it comes across as substance to untutored ears.

The third level gets into political and economic philosophy in which both candidates describe the meta-structure and operating characteristics of how a society works.  Here we will encounter such notions as ‘collectivism’ defined, the Laffer curve celebrated or castigated, the blessings and evils of laissez faire markets, the role of taxes in a recovery, the intrinsic responsibilities of government, the proper relationships of worker productivity and workforce levels as they affect GDP and the nation’s overall quality of life, the desired role of the US as world hegemon, and so on.

What almost every political junkie will agree on is that the middle level communicates ‘best’ with the electorate.  After such a debate no one will complain that the candidates “spent a surprising amount of time on granular policy details.”  Pure pabulum always comes in a perfectly clear package.  It is there where the real connections are made with voters who think they understood the most of what was said.

My own preference is to witness what we did last night – the ‘granular’ level of discourse – or the third level.  Truth be told, I’d like to hear most about the candidates’ meta level views of how they think humans work in different sizes of groups, what they consider as natural constraints on human cooperation, what meta-principles and constants should we derive from our Constitution, the role of culture(s) in maintaining America as a sovereign nation-state, the role of such states in the world order, and so on.  To me understanding these beliefs of the candidates is most important, because it is these that will drive the general thrust of their policies while in office.  The details will be mangled here and there by exigencies of uncontrolled events, politics, and God knows what else.

[5oct12 update]  The 5oct12 lead editorial in the WSJ sounds like a compendium of RR posts characterizing the liberal dialectic in its commentary on Obama’s recent debate performance.  Significant is the wider perception of how the Left uses baseless bogeymen of their own construction that they assign to their opposition, and then, shifting between great glee and high dudgeon, proceed to demolish.  The other approach used not only by Obama, but also an established practice of the lamestream, is hoovering (q.v.) – just ignore and never mention the inconvenient facts.  In this case Obama’s first term record has been completely hoovered and will continue to be so treated until 6 November.

In their post-mortems the Left is driven to develop desperate dust-ups as to why their Messiah finally got his socks wet traversing the Galilee.  Beyond impediments like hypo-oxygenation, we now hear that Romney cheated by using notes.  This was not a junior high school pop quiz.  Both men had notes, and they should have.  The United States and the world are complex systems described by uncountable numbers and processes.  To talk, let alone debate, effectively about these, one should have at his disposal notes.  Obama was so busy studying and writing his own notes that he could barely look Romney in the eye.  Not looking compelling and important issues in the eye is a longstanding character weakness of his – we recall the litany of events ranging from the Gulf oil spill to the recent murders in Benghazi, the latter he has yet to look in the eye.

This south-Chicago demagogue was definitely shown to be out of his league by his flubbed ‘3AM telephone call’ even before he got to Debate1.  And as his foreign policy onion gets peeled back layer by layer, we are finding out how truly incompetent are the White House sophomores now in power.  In the larger scheme of things, no one wants to think about ol’ Joe being a heartbeat away from the Oval Office – talk about making Sarah Palin look absolutely brilliant.  But we will have to confront the ramifications of that on 11 October for ‘Paul & Joe Show’.

Pardon me while I go light another candle for the President’s continued good health.

[8oct12 update]  Given the lamestream’s spin and lamentations, if ever there was a picture worth a more than a word or two …

ObamaDebateVictory

 

Posted in , ,

124 responses to “Debate1 Thoughts (updated 8oct12)”

  1. Walt Avatar

    Something sure took the wind out of our progressive’s sails.
    They were sure hot to make posts after the Lib convention
    and pound their chests to beat King Kong. NOW,,,, crickets.
    Break out the popcorn when Paul and Joe have their turn.
    If you thought this debate was Lib bummer, they might as well
    have an ambulance ready for Joe Paul will tear him a new orifice or two.

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  2. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    These so-called debates never seem to have a much substance, so I rarely watch. That would include this one. They can be viewed later anyway, so unless I hear that one of the candidates laid a big egg or carved the other guy up for lunch, I give them a pass. Usually, the incumbent tries to simply play it safe and let the challenger get over-confidant in his attacks and come off as strident or hyper-zealous. The challenger tries to go on the offensive and rattle the incumbent with out coming off as offensive or desperate. Obama’s record is one big pile of lies and incompetence. All he has to run on is a post-modern narrative of “caring” and “trying to give everyone a fair shot”. Romney seems to understand what needs to be done in a vague, theoretical sort of way, but golly! – he sure doesn’t want to step on any one’s toes or seem pushy or rude. He was raised to be polite. The Wednesday after election day, we will still be the same nation we are right now. Primarily, broke and sinking deeper into debt every hour at a rate that would have caused absolute panic 20 years ago. Secondarily, a nation divided as deeply, if not more so, than in the 1860’s. About 1/2 of us understand and want a Constitutional fed govt and the other 1/2 want a Euro-styled post-modern govt that believes they have a “right” to what ever they want at any given moment.
    The only moment of comedy in the whole presidential debate Hoo-Ha was AlGore declaring that he thought Obama suffered from lack of acclimatizing himself to the altitude. He would know, since he seems to be suffering himself from a lack of oxygen since birth.
    Lest anyone castigate me as some one who carps, but has no constructive answer, I politely say that any candidate (anyone!) can post a thesis or platform outlining their world views, details of programs and goals, instructions to the unwashed, answers to questions and criticism and so on. It would be a running, on-going black and white blue print of what they believe and offer to the electorate. I would be following their posts (regardless of party affiliation) closely and would respect them far more for their upfront and honest thoughts than any oratorical yodelings and one liners. It would, of course, be political suicide for any candidate to actually do any of that. It’s been noted that we (collectively) get the b*****d we deserve and so far, it rings pretty much true.
    I voted for the real black guy in the last presidential election. Keyes didn’t need to change his speech patterns or dialects to suite the rubes. Maybe I’ll write in Allen West this time. He seems to have a thick skin and acknowledges his mistakes. He also only has one speech pattern and I know he can kick ass when needed. I live in Kalifornia and the powers that be have decided my vote isn’t going to count toward the electoral college anyway, unless I vote for Obama. This, from the same exact folk that soak their public hankies on a regular basis over the evils of those that would dis-enfranchise the voters.
    There’s a photograph (I should look for it) taken about 10 years ago, of civilians crawling under automatic weapon fire in order to vote. Please think about that when ever you hear about how “difficult” it is to vote in this country. For those of you who complain about the “long” election cycle and how “sick” you are of political ads and electioneering, please remove yourselves, pronto, to Syria and report back to me (if you are still alive) how much better it is there. Sadly, there is only one group of citizens (living, that is) in this country that can honestly complain of not being certain their vote will count and that’s our men and women in uniform. Shame on the Democrats and shame on our country for that.

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  3. TomKenworth Avatar

    A real debate would come with charts and graphs and sources, and candidates making reference to both their set of informations and their opponents set of information. This repetition of 1859 is so unbecoming of a modern 21st century nation.

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  4. billy T Avatar

    Saw some of the debate on reruns. Loved it how Gov. Romney corrected President Obama over tax breaks for sending jobs overseas. Congress has never written tax breaks for sending jobs out of the country. And all this time I even believed the big lie. Say it often enough and people think its true.
    Obama was pounding again on what government can do for you. Romney pounded on the private sector as the job creators, which in turn get people off food stamps and pours money into the Treasury. The Great Divide.
    Jon Steward tweeted during the festivities “Get Obama a prompter!” Al Gore said Denver’s high attitude affected Obama’s performance. He should have acclimated himself before sparing. “Can we move on to another topic?”
    I was pleasantly surprised. I thought it would be style over substance. I am now hopeful it just might be substance over style. Facts matter.
    I felt sorry for Mr. President. Jim Lehrer did not protect him. No prompter. Every argument put forth proved to be a big lie. His core beliefs were exposed as flawed. Obama’s cures are worse than the problems. The challenger looked like the leader. Nowhere to hide, nowhere to run. The best the libs can come up with is Obama was having a conversation with the American people. Really, that is a good one.

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  5. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    Rebane, is this “granular” enough for you? Biden and his ilk would have been lining Jews up for ‘train rides’ decades ago. Their message? Hate.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_yc2zBmOmNE
    “On top of the trillions of dollars of spending that we have already cut, we’re gonna ask – yes – we’re gonna ask the wealthy to pay more,” said Biden. “My heart breaks, come on man. You know the phrase they always use? Obama and Biden want to raise taxes by a trillion dollars. Guess what? Yes we do in one regard. We want to let that trillion dollar tax cut expire so the middle class doesn’t have to bear the burden of all that money going to the super wealthy. That’s not a tax raise, that’s called fairness where I come from.”

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  6. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Mikey-
    More pandering and patronizing rhetoric.
    I’m assuming Biden is referring to the Bush tax cuts which will pound the middle class if they don’t get rolled back?

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  7. TomKenworth Avatar

    So you want a President who is a cheater and breaks the rules? You’ve got him! Caught on tape at the beginning of the debate.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQZ5_qdHLV8

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  8. Ryan Mount Avatar

    You know what’s embarrassing? Is the Obama-bots desperately trying to find an excuse for why he didn’t show up on Wednesday. At first it was entertaining watching them gnash their teeth. Now it’s embarrassing. Suddenly Obama supporters are sounding like Glenn Beck.
    So rather than introspection, they lash out like victims: Romney lied (they lied on numerous occasions. Well they both certainly stretched the truth); it was the altitude; Obama didn’t have time to prep because he was too busy making appearances on the View; he had a “off day”; and now this. The note-laden handkerchief probably torn from his temple garments.

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  9. TomKenworth Avatar

    Show me that is is a handkerchief that he used for anything other than cheating. Then talk about his character.

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  10. Ryan Mount Avatar

    tin foil. Of all the things we have to worry about. But heck, at least we have labels for everyone now. And an excuse.
    If Romney wins, which I doubt, then the Democrats will have their “missiles/ufos/Bush took down the twin towers” narrative for the election.

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  11. Walt Avatar

    Obummer couldn’t even look Mitt in the eye. But Mitt stared “O” down when addressing him. All “O” would do is look down and nod his head in agreement when the cold hard facts where placed at his shiny shoes. No teleprompter to come to his aid and defence.
    Now that “O” has his prized tinted glass back, he sure has plenty to say.
    Now that the jobs report is out ( fuzzy math and all) he’s back to “look at me! I did that! Unemployment has dropped”.
    Only fools believe the published unemployment count.
    Remember,,, those that do not receive U.E. are not counted in any way shape or form. Nor are the under employed.
    But HAY!! the numbers sure look better. ( screw reality “O” needs to try and keep his job. It’s the only one he cares about.)

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  12. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    One beauty of being an independent thinker is being able to be objective. I opined before the debate that “this is where Obama will shine and distance himself even more from Romney.” I could not have been more wrong and I am man enough to admit it.
    I think Romney is hungry and Obama’s tongue atrophied after 4 years of getting tossed softballs by the MSM. Obama doesn’t have a chance (without lying) in the foreign policy debate but I think he will have a stellar 2008-like performance (used literally) at one of the next 2 debates.

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  13. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    How does Romney’s handkerchief presence account for Obama’s tongue being tied (rhetorical)! LOL.

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  14. Ryan Mount Avatar

    The next “debate” (quotes deliberate) is a town hall format. Romney has an uphill climb there. The last one is on foreign policy, which Obama will look like a buffoon.
    With regards to Romney’s pocket podium temple garment (see above) that’s making its way around the Internets, Obama spent 3 days in Nevada prepping for this debate. If he couldn’t learn his lines with that devotion, something is very wrong.

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  15. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    Agreed Ryan on all counts (10:56am)
    “If you’re not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you’re not a conservative at forty you have no brain” -Churchill
    CONTINUED…
    And if you’re not a Libertarian at seventy you’re probably dead.

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  16. George Rebane Avatar

    Mikey 1117am – speaking from beyond the grave, I hope that we can take the time to fully explore the reality of your libertarian foreign policy, as opposed to that embraced by this conservetarian. Maybe after the election?

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  17. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    Why wait (Rebane 12:10pm)? But, I must commend your updated post, especially when you wrote “..why their Messiah finally got his socks wet traversing the Galilee”- loved it!
    I have a paper wasps nest in an Oak tree outside my front door. If I had arrogantly/haphazardly ‘attacked’ it at 2am when my dog drew my attention to it I would now be suffering. For upon further review (with natural light) my middle-of-the-night attacks would have done nothing but exacerbate the problem (pissing off the wasps and multiplying future nests).
    I am thankful that my encounter occurred when I had my wits about me. What would my plan have been the morning after a failed attempt?
    I hope by now you can see the parallels to our countries ugly foreign policy past AND THE PROBLEM THAT FACES A PEACE LOVING LIBERTARIAN. Past ‘leaders’ (term used loosely) have put our country into the position of puppet master (occupier) without regard to precedent, exit strategy, attainable objectives… in other words past ‘leaders’ have kicked the wasp nest and handed over the keys to the farm laden with wasps. I hope this is at least somewhat coherent 🙂

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  18. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    conservetarian works.
    It would be a lot easier to be at peace if the USA did not spend decades kicking the wasps nest. Now, I would promote the managed homecoming of our troops abroad ‘yesterday.’ In the case of the middle east I think it would serve us best to leave our weaponry/ordnance there.
    “If you’re not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you’re not a conservative at forty you have no brain” -Churchill
    CONTINUED…
    And if you’re not a Libertarian/conservetarian at seventy you’re probably dead.

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  19. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Mikey, we broke it so we had to buy it.
    Regarding handkerchief-gate:
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/zekejmiller/romney-cheat-sheet-was-a-handkerchief-campaign
    Maybe we should go back to the altitude excuse?

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  20. George Rebane Avatar

    Mikey 116pm – “… without regard to precedent, exit strategy, attainable objectives…” My conservetarian modus operandi would not have us project force without appropriately accounting for the prior planning list you started. Maintaining the power to remain the world’s hegemon (aka sheriff), and properly executing that office are separate (orthogonal) issues. My pea-brain cannot see an acceptable (to America, its objectives and principles) world with today’s players and their geo-strategic objectives, without our having the ability to do what we can barely but still do now.
    Pulling back into our geographical cocoon, castrating our military, and retaining only the MAD option in our silos paints a bleak world. One that IMHO will see real wars (not the glorified police actions of Iraq and Afghanistan) within a year of the date we can no longer operate three carrier task groups in the western Pacific and the European theater.

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  21. Paul Emery Avatar

    I’m with Mikey on this one. Economically we cannot feed the military beast we created to police the world. We’ll likely go down like the Soviet Union in the 80’s when they couldn’t afford the cold war and finally quit.
    A quick note on the “debate” Romney may have won the debate on style points but he is such a remarkable hypocrite and added immensely to his resume of being the “flipper”. The man is an empty suit and believes in nothing. It remains to be seen if he actually changed a significant number of votes. Incumbents have won lost four of the last five first debates and cruised to victory.
    From Nate Silver
    “….the first debate has normally helped the challenger. In the nine elections between 1976 and 2008, there were only two years when the incumbent-party candidate gained ground relative to the challenger; these cases were 1976, when Gerald R. Ford halved his six-point deficit with Jimmy Carter, and 1988, when George H.W. Bush moved just slightly further ahead of Michael Dukakis.
    But on average, the challenging-party candidate gained a net of one and a half percentage points on the incumbent-party candidate……”
    http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/03/first-debate-often-helps-challenger-in-polls/

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  22. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 259pm – With that enthusiastic interpretation of the debate, I look forward to your electoral college entry on Monday in our little competition.
    BTW, the USSR went down the tubes economically for many more significant reasons than not affording the cold war. Their system was broken from literally every aspect of human economic and social behavior, there was no incentive for anyone to exert themselves in creating wealth they could not keep. Sorta like the direction obamunism is designed to take us.

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  23. Walt Avatar

    Mitt cheated?? Now that’s a good one. ( proof desperation is setting in)Need more? hear Joe today? Good GOD!,, he is nutting up. Someone break out the straight jacket and duct tape.
    It will be more than entertaining to hear the masterdebater Joe unscripted when he goes against Ryan.
    On another note, even Taiwanese have spoofed the debate and know “O” got whooped but good.
    Here is their take on it. If you have a weak bladder, I suggest you grab a pair of depends before viewing.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNhUI8ktHuw&feature=player_embedded
    The full story is here.
    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/romney-roundhouse-kicks-obama-through-a-wall-in-the-hysterical-taiwanese-animation-of-the-debate/

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  24. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    This is hilarious. Paul is suddenly worried about what we can afford. Just the interest on our debt at real market levels (never mind the original loan amount) and the cost of social programs will soon dwarf the defence budget by several multiples. We can’t afford a shot gun but that round the world tour and new Ferrari are must haves. Try learning some basic arithmetic, Paul. Even a Democrat from NY knew that all other promises were worthless if we are dead.

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  25. Walt Avatar

    “O” has just shown his true colors, and how he views hard work. If this doesn’t make your blood boil, call an undertaker.
    ( or the nearest Communist recruitment center)
    “Our economy does not grow from the top-down, it grows from the middle-out. We do not believe that anybody is entitled to success in this country. But we do believe in opportunity”
    This is from Ahole’s latest “vote for me” speech.
    Dear Leader has shown his true colors.
    Most of us already knew this..But actually hearing the words come out of his mouth is a whole new dawn.
    The sad thing is, most of our Progressive pals will still vote for this piece of…… work.
    So how many of you with a “D” next to your name feel we are not entitled to being successful? And you want to give him a second term? Get your head examined.

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  26. billy T Avatar

    Man, came home to glance at the jobs report. Seems nobody believes it. 6 of out of 8 landed part time jobs. Christmas help and all that. Some left the Democrat plantation and became self employed.
    Economy is slowing. Obamacare was going to pay for itself with a 4-5% GDP growth rate. What a joke. The forecast was over 2%, the 2.o%, then 1.7% rate….for the LAST quarter. Expect the usual downgrade for both the number of net jobs created and what the 3rd quarter GNP really was.
    I won’t go as far as Jack Welch, but he is on to something. The data even elicited a conspiracy theory from former General Electric CEO Jack Welch, who tweeted: “Unbelievable jobs numbers..these Chicago guys will do anything..can’t debate so change numbers.”
    I kinda agree with this dude: Liberal economist Dean Baker, with the Center for Economic and Policy Research, called the September rate drop “almost certainly a statistical fluke.”
    If this what the Obama job plan and recovery looks like, I shutter to think what another 4 years of the community organizer will smell like. Perhaps a better question to pose is “Do you think you will be better off 4 years from now???

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  27. George Rebane Avatar

    Dear People – The required SUSTAINED GDP annual growth rate is over 5% just to keep the present level of unemployed at 24M. We have never done that in modern times, and as I explain in some detail, we will not be able to do that ever again with current workforce and productivity growth rates. This barn has been circled on RR, but is yet to be even recognized in Congress. Please review the developments here
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/09/headwinds-for-the-american-worker.html , and here http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/09/the-real-jobs-problem-shhh.html
    Then again, maybe it is understood in the dark recesses of the federal government, and that is why DHS is laying in the heavy armaments pointed at American citizens.

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  28. TomKenworth Avatar

    No pankie in the Romney hankie? I doubt that very much. I would guess information on hankie because of the nature of the material. It doesn’t make noise when unfolded, and, in case of discovery, a quick release of a gas up Mitt’s sleeve would render the letters invisible. Mitt got caught receiving directed sound some time back. Reagan raised taxes came out of nowhere onto Mitt’s mike, before Mitt answered.
    It would be so simple to find other footage of Mitt going up to a podium and spreading his hankie, if indeed that was a habit of his. How many other times has Mitt thrown in his towel, or his referee flag, in the past? Easy to check, if fact checkers were on the ball. Next time, cameras pointed straight down at podiums, thank-you.

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  29. TomKenworth Avatar

    Of pssible interest? http://carboncredits.carboncapturereport.org/cgi-bin//profiler?key=George_Rebane&pt=2#relatedorgs You can run this on yourself as well. We are all being tracked by db Cougers.

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  30. Paul Emery Avatar

    Three trillion for our wars in Iraq and Afgan no problem right Scott? Just chump change. No problem with US taxpayers funding the police force of the world? Sure. More truckloads of cash for Iraq mullahs.
    “Donald Rumsfeld took possession of the Iraqi trust fund and had delivered in cash. Carried by tractor trailer from the Federal Reserve in New York to Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland, it was then flown directly to Baghdad…….
    Pentagon officials have since described the days in May 2004 when $12 billion dollars in cash was air-lifted from the US Treasury directly to Iraq. C-130 Hercules cargo planes were used on the 20-plus missions. In what became the largest international cash air-lift in history, the giant aircraft were stuffed full bags and crates full of cold hard cash. Uniformly bundled in shrink-wrapped bricks of $100 dollar bills, the money was packed into anything and everything the military could find to carry it.”
    http://www.whiteoutpress.com/articles/wach/us-loses-6-billion-of-iraq-s-money742/

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  31. TomKenworth Avatar

    Well Paul, the beat goes on, although at not so brisk a pace, a paltry 600 million in socialists dollars to help private companies goes profitable:
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/05/us-space-spacex-idUSBRE8941GP20121005

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  32. George Rebane Avatar

    TomK 1215am – I’m sorry about your understanding of government contracting. FYI, the money SpaceX and other private contractors was for services performed that NASA could not replicate either quicker, better, or cheaper. We still need to do our contractual part at the ISS, but as you may recall, under Obama NASA’s new emphasis is to “promote better relations with the Muslim world.”

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  33. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Paul – the money we poured into Afghanistan and Iraq had little to do with policing the world. You were bemoaning the cost of being the world’s sheriff. I think we can agree on the outrageous cost of being the world’s welfare system and the cost of “diplomacy” in buying off “friends”. The military budget is one thing and the amount of money we spend in building infrastructure in countries that can’t afford to simply feed themselves is another. I realize it does get mixed in with the military as the military becomes the delivery system for the social programs. This is a misuse of our military. They are great for emergency rescue operations and immediate relief from natural disasters, but not for the kind of ongoing nonsense that has taken place in the middle east. it is the natural order of things that one country will emerge as the most powerful militarily. That country needs to be our country.
    We cut our military budget at our peril. I never turn a blind eye at waste in govt including the military, so please don’t think that I would hand them a blank check. Your tale of billions in cash going to the middle east was laughable. No – I don’t think we should be doing that, but the amount of money that you got all wide eyed about was peanuts compared to what goes on every hour at the federal level. 12 big ones? Ooooooh – since it was in a physical form and had weight and volume, it became a real amount to you libs. QE3 alone puts out that much every week! Indefinitely. We can afford being the sheriff, but we can’t afford the social programs and a govt that doesn’t operate according to Constitutional principles. That will surely bankrupt us.

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  34. Paul Emery Avatar

    Scott
    I’m sure there are lots of cities and counties that could use 12 billion to improve their infrastructure but we chose to give it away by the truckload to mullahs to buy off their support be it ever so brief, That’s all part of of the Bush legacy of our tragic war in Iraq. I’m sure Obama does the same thngs but perhaps in not such graphic style supervised by our Secretary of Defense (Rummy).
    Nevada county could use just a pickup load to help with our roads and schools but no. We pay the tax, it goes to Washington, they print up the dough and send it out by the semi load to whomever we want to buy out. We then, to quote Romney, borrow money from China to pay the bills.
    Time to come home and takd care of our own needs first.

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  35. TomKenworth Avatar

    @George, 8:28 am, so if the government contracts to have solar panels purchased and installed on government buildings, like say the parking structures in Marysville and Sierra College, you have no problem with that? Who created the jobs in such cases, the companies or the government?
    On another note, relating to the debate, debating skills are by no means and end-all. Case in point:
    Long-Shot Mayoral Candidate
    In late 2000 Bloomberg switched his longtime political affiliation from registered Democrat to registered Republican in order to give him a better chance in the following year’s mayoral race in New York City. The Democratic field was historically a crowded one in the primary race, and Bloomberg won the public support of the city’s outgoing mayor, Rudolph W. Giuliani (born 1944), a Republican. Despite that endorsement, few considered Bloomberg a serious contender. “His gifts on the stump were minimal: He was brusque, infelicitous, maladroit, utterly unvisionary,” wrote John Heilemann in New York magazine.
    New York City’s Democratic and Republican mayoral primaries were scheduled for September 11, 2001, and were halted after just a few hours of polling when two airliners hit the towers of the World Trade Center and the city descended into chaos. As Heilemann noted, suddenly “the mood of the electorate darkened. What voters wanted now was an equable hand to keep the economy afloat and the city from unraveling.” The primary was rescheduled, and Bloomberg bested his nearest Republican challenger, former Bronx borough president Herman Badillo (born 1929). In the weeks leading up to the election, Bloomberg set a new record for New York City mayoral campaign spending at $74 million. He beat the Democratic challenger, the city’s public advocate, Mark J. Green (born 1945), by a margin of two percentage points

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  36. George Rebane Avatar

    TomK 130pm – Let me start with debating skills. Please note that it has long and recently been my point on debates, that the skills prized most are those not most useful in executing the office. But if a debate is held, then it should be a deliberate affair proceeding at a dignified pace with the use of all the notes, graphic aids, and other information at hand to substantiate points advanced or countered.
    Such debates would take about as long as the performance of Wagner’s complete Ring Cycle, and would unfortunately be of interest to the same number of people. The debate should be conducted over a number of days in, say, half hour segments. That would give both sides ample time to assemble the supporting materials for an information rich presentation. It should follow fairly closely the protocol of a judicial proceeding. To me such a debate would be of compelling interest, I’d be at the edge of my chair.
    Your government contracts question is an ever popular one that gets batted around between liberals (arguing mostly Keynesian perspective) and conservatives (arguing the private sector perspective). What gets lost immediately in such discussions is that the problem is not just jobs, but wealth producing jobs (WPJs). The second casualty is jobs that support the accepted functions of government. Here there is a wide divergence between the two sides where one has a hard time identifying any human activity in which government is not a partner or overseer.
    Governments must first take money from the private sector through taxation, inflation, and/or borrowing (deferred taxation) to fund its functions. Since government is very poor at picking winners and has a knack for solyndrizing, I believe government should stick to prime functions like national defense, large infra-structure projects, and law enforcement in which it uses private sector contractors to the maximum extent. (BTW, only naifs believe that space exploration is not a national security function.)
    Job creation is never the problem; it’s creating those WPJs that’s a high hurdle for government, and comes naturally to the private sector that is minimally regulated and taxed. Obama’s crowing about creating some 4M new jobs – many government wealth consuming jobs (WCJs) – since he’s been in office impresses only those who don’t know that a marketplace left to its own devices would have created in excess of 10M WPJs in the same interval. But that is small comfort in a post-tipping point society where dumbth can again carry the day as it did in 2008.
    In the 1930s there was no depression in the USSR. Stalin had created over 50M government jobs. Western media pundits were shown large infra-structure projects and happy Potemkin villages full of thousands upon thousands of workers. Too bad they were all busy at WCJs, but that was not reported by the lamestream in newspapers read by our unemployed workers standing in soup lines. They cheered when FDR turned the screws on capitalism and created another wealth consuming alphabet agency. We all know how the problem was solved.

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  37. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Paul – I see we agree on one thing: “We pay the tax, it goes to Washington, they print up the dough and send it out by the semi load to whomever we want to buy out. We then, to quote Romney, borrow money from China to pay the bills.” This will end only when we start following the Constitution. Until then, the very thing you hate will continue. If Nevada County wants to fix it’s schools and roads why should any one else in the world pay for it? That 12 billion we’re talking about here should never have been printed or authorized to be spent anywhere. The idea that we can just bring all of our armed forces home and fix everything here is laughable. We have been throwing money at social problems by the train load for decades and the social problems keep getting worse. Anyone in this country can be as wealthy as they choose. They choose to lead sorry lives and blame everyone but themselves. The only thing squashing the working poor and the middle class right now is the govt. As long as you want a nanny state to run every thing, this is what you’ll get. Just look at Europe. Even Germany is in trouble. They all went “green” by govt edict – how’s that working out for them? Remember that the first carbon auction is coming up soon in California and our energy costs will be “necessarily skyrocketing”! I’m sure a few well connected folks at the top will make a killing and the working poor and middle class will have higher bills. It’s what the left wanted and we are all going to pay.

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  38. TomKenworth Avatar

    ” Anyone in this country can be as wealthy as they choose.” Not really, there is a limit to the number of wealthy folks if the primary way to get there is off the backs of other working stiffs, by organizing and getting the work for them to do.

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  39. TomKenworth Avatar

    If everyone studies real long and hard, and they all become rocket scientists, rocket scientists will be paid minimum wage. Remember back in the late 1980’s, when folks who knew PageMaker got $60/hour and higher? Not anymore. Staples will hire you as a computer tech, but you will start at minimum wage.

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  40. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    There’s a limit? What is it? ……….I’m waiting……”the primary way to get there is off the backs of other working stiffs” Facts and statistics, please. It’s all voluntary, Tom. Did you volunteer to hold your ankles? Did you? I’m waiting…..
    Who’s talking about rocket scientists? Every few years there’s a story about a school teacher that dies and leaves a legacy of millions to charity. And there is the requisite head scratching as to how in the world a school teacher could possibly amass that kind of money. It turns out that it’s really not that hard to do. The problem with Tom Worthless is that he and his fellow travelers think that they should be able to choose any sort of career they want and squander their money and still end up as millionaires. I said that if you want to be rich, you can do it. You do have to work and save and be disciplined. But anyone, including poor blacks from the ghetto can, and have done it. That is a fact. If you don’t like it, go pound sand. You have no rights to any that are not enumerated in the Bill of Rights. I didn’t see any that guaranteed you would make a dime just doing anything you want to. You have to work at being rich no matter what type of work that entails. If you want to look through a view finder and push a button, then you only get what the public is willing to pay. The only entity beating down the public is the govt and the public are begging for more. Sounds like mental illness, to me.

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  41. billy T Avatar

    Mr. Obermuller, nice post. Minimum wage is a red herring, a definite non-issue. Facts are that most people stay on minimum wage for a very short period of time. Any person that can show up and not be a slacker will get a wage increase voluntarily by the employer, also in a relatively short period of time.
    Just ask any convenience store clerk or farm worker or gardener or dish washer or employee at Mickey D’s how much they make after 6 months and you would be surprised. They won’t get rich, but few work at minimum wage.
    Guess we have minimum wage laws to protect the sluggard and the whiner.

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  42. Russ Steele Avatar

    TK, how do you feel about CalSTRS investing in solar plants? Kate Grimes at the CalWatchDog writes:
    Nearly every time I pick up the newspaper, the headline screams that another solar plant has closed and the business gone under. Yet I see that the California State Teachers’ Retirement System is investing $42.8 million in a large solar plant in Sacramento.
    “Investing” was the term used.
    A Solar plant’s primary revenue stream is tax credits. So why would CalSTRS be interested in tax credits? And why would a retirement system need tax credits? …especially when much of the solar industry has been totally discredited as phony investments propped up by federal “stimulus” money.
    “The California State Teachers’ Retirement System said the investments are part of its 2-year-old commitment to infrastructure,” the Sacramento Bee reported. “The pension fund has $750 million invested in the field.”
    Something smells fishy.
    According to one Capitol insider, CalSTRS thinks they are following all the safe money.  They apparently are also banking on a guaranteed return because of the 2011 Renewable Portfolio Standard, which requires that 33 percent of all of California’s energy will need to be from renewable resources by year 2020.
    CalSTRS balance sheets lately aren’t looking really hot.  Some political insiders are predicting that there will be a “Green” Swan moment in 2013, and investors will really be looking for guarantees then.

    With all solar companeis going in the tank, do your feel secure that Cal STRS knows what they are doing? Do you support this effort? Why?

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  43. George Rebane Avatar

    billyT 634am – well noted Mr Tozer. But that shibboleth is a mainstay of the progressive propaganda pump because a sufficiently large (perhaps smaller than 47%) of their constituency is made up of sluggards and whiners. After all, they have to vote for somebody, don’t they?
    ScottO 1015pm – The story bears repeating in its various forms and often. It is the real message of hope and change for the rest of us – those who decide that they have the gumption to do it. My family is among the millions arriving here with nothing but our culture who got to work (no job was too humble for us) and made their move, asking nothing from government except room to maneuver.

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  44. TomKenworth Avatar

    My point still stands. Mathematically you can’t have everyone a business owner, the surest way to become a millionaire. Learn to do something others will pay for. Hire others to do the work for you, pay them roughly 1/3 of the gross of what they bring in. Then set up a second shop far enough away to attract new customers without diluting your current base. Plaza Tire is a perfect example of this in action. Yes business owner is a full time overtime job, but mathematically you have to have just one at the top collecting the other 2/3rds of the cash to run the business and make those millions (or at least try to) For every artist, inventor, musician, athlete and actor out there, you have far more business folks. These basic facts are never taught in school, as they should be. School boards are made up often of business people, because the first rule of business, is “eliminate competition (better yet, squash it before it starts), any way you can, and for God’s sake don’t explain this aspect of financial life to everyone’s kids, just pass it on at the dinner table.”
    As for after six months wage increases try this on for size: I started at Nowell’s lamps in Sausalito with a promise of a wage increase in two months, starting at minimum wage. I was starting my third month there when my experienced co-worker, there for over one year, announced he had gotten a raise. He was very good, was teaching me a lot (I can fix and construct brass lamps, drill ceramic vases, buff brass) I asked for details and found out that he now made a proud 10% above minimum wage, whoopie do, despite being an excellent worker. Boss will tell you anything, but pay you as little as they think they can get away with. I quit the next day, and went back to substitute teaching at $44/day, despite the commute.

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  45. billy T Avatar

    “With Romney on the rebound, I think Big Bird ought to worry. Thanksgiving is coming up.”
    — Charles Krauthammer on “Special Report with Bret Baier.”

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  46. TomKenworth Avatar

    As for little old ladies leaving behind fortunes, that is entirely possible, because statistically someone, somewhere, just has to get lucky with nearly every stock pick. You know, like the Clintons and Whitewater, over and over again. This is very different from the statically much greater numbers of folks who leave fortunes made in business. In neither case do we talk about the other end of the scale, the unsuccessful and the unlucky, despite hard work and money invested (gambled).

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  47. TomKenworth Avatar

    I predict thta in California Big Bird will get at least 10,000 write-in votes, better than my pick of Neil deGrasse Tyson, in this Obama-safe state.

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  48. billy T Avatar

    Mr. Kenworth:
    First, employers that do not give increases in compensation without the employee asking for them (or earning them) is an employer that either is a bad business person or one that has constant turnovers. The other possibility is that the employee is not worth it. Time on the job is less important than what one does on the job. I agree that there are some out there that are so tight they squeak when they walk. My experiences are different from your experiences. In the early 80’s I had a clerk at the unemployment office ask me for a job, lol. I have also been asked by those that run local non profits here if I would hire them. I am just a dumb college dropout and I usually don’t employee folks that have plaques on the wall. But, those days are gone. I am an hourly guy now. Less headaches and better bennies. Also, when self employed, my boss was a Class A anal cavity.
    Second, I will cut you a lot of slack concerning the state of affairs, especially here in the Golden State. The system is set up for the very rich and the very poor and those who are mentally challenged. The ones in the middle are being squeezed like a rotten tomato until all the guts and seeds squirt out. Taxes, utilities, gas at the pump, groceries, and a myriad of user fees and surcharges for breathing air. Add to that the declining manufacturing base in California, the collapsing education system, sins of our forefathers, competition from abroad and from other states and you have something that resembles Greece. Or Japan.
    These are merely challenges. Opportunities if you prefer. I started in grammar school moving lawns for 50 cents, and later working at summer camps. 25 bucks a week for 12 hour days, 6 days. Not bad for a 15 year old kid who got to spent summers in the mountains and out of trouble. I worked as a soda jerk on weekend evenings in high school. Walked 6 miles (literally) to the place. Minimum wage was $1.65/hour, but cause I was under age they paid me $1.45/hour to “employee the youth”. Could not work past 10pm per CA law, but I did anyway. Guess I did not mind giving up weekend nights in high school.
    Nowadays some would say I stole a poor family’s job. I worked through two years of private universities and loaded freight cars at night. Made more than my professors did, lol. I love history. I pulled my history professor aside and asked him what could I do with a history degree. He said I could teach or work for the government. History professors grooming future history professors. I asked my foreign language professor and he said the same thing. Seemed like a waste of time to me and my underdeveloped frontal lobe back then.
    The middle class is between a rock and a hard place. Tom, that is a given. But two things I have learned in life. Yes, a miracle I grant you that. Those things are it is never as bad as it seems and the second is when times are good, they will not always stay that way.

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  49. George Rebane Avatar

    TomK 830am – thank you for this classic piece of progressive thought. There is no hint in your world of a market place where free people are free to buy and sell things at prices they, not government elites or their ‘betters’, mutually agree. In your world, people deserve to have the government gun at their side as they reach into pockets they did not and could not fill. And the justification in your worldview is that them’s that got deserve to be robbed, because they themselves robbed it first from the now less fortunate.
    Still looking for a smidgeon of common ground.

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  50. TomKenworth Avatar

    Geez George, what part of my description of how small businesses work do you disagree with? I voted with my feet when I could see that the boss was lying through his teeth about how soon I’d get a raise. Isn’t that my freedom of choice? Please tell me, how, mathematically, everyone can become a millionaire, given this very common structure. Mechanics get $35/hour, shop rate to customers is $95/hour. Very common. Very difficult for mechanic to become millionaire, unless he quits and opens his own shop. And then we are back to square one.

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