Rebane's Ruminations
September 2012
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George Rebane

It all depends on your definition of how is it ‘good’ for whom.  The notion (meme?) of assessing and/or building a good community started as a thread in my ‘… = Sleazebag’ post.  But it deserves its own venue, because the arguments from the Left and Right will reveal much of what is considered by both sides to be wrong with America today.  Being residents of a small and remote rural county in these Sierra foothills allows us to dissect this issue from its generalized national scope down to the level of our own intimate main streets.

Communities
In the following, I use ‘culture’ as defined in the RR Glossary & Semantics category. 

Let me proceed with some premises and questions.


Premise1 – Americans should have the ability to choose what kind of a community they want to plan, build, and live in without fear of being forced by their government to do otherwise.

Premise2 – America will be a more peaceful, cohesive, secure, and productive country with a spectrum of communities each determining locally how much diversity it wishes to enjoy within its geographical confines or region of influence.

Premise3 – A culture (be it social, technical, religious, …) will survive only to the extent that it has environments in which it can be nurtured and inter-generationally herited, and in which it can practice discrimination so as to minimize the diluting influences of competing cultures.  Corollary – absent external forces, ‘multi-kulti’ environments tend toward a dominant culture starting with the elimination of the weakest cultures in its mix.

Premise4 – Americans should have the ability to group themselves according to any criteria and/or attributes they consider proper, so long as such groupings do not form for the explicit purpose of eliminating or harming another grouping.

Premise5 – Local sustainability and self-reliance promotes the stability and self-determination of communities.  Corollary – self-determination and individual liberties are minimized to the extent that a community is forced to rely on outside single-sourced resources.

Premise6 – Cultures arise, live, and die.  No one culture should be penalized so as to prevent the natural decline of another culture.  All cultures of today need not be here tomorrow.

Premise7 – Utility (what is ‘good’) is a subjective measure usually consisting of multiple attributes.  Neither a single utility, nor any of its specific attributes, are necessarily shared by more than one culture.  Therefore, all cultures are not of equal worth to anyone.

Premise8 – No individual has the right to force a group to abandon the local/regional practice of any established culture’s traditions, celebrations, observances, … .

Question1 – To what extent are any of these premises unconstitutional?

Question2 – To what extent would the implementation of any of these premises be detrimental to the overall quality of life (QOL) in the United States?  How?

Question3 – Which of these premises do not belong in the evaluation of an existing community and/or informing its formation and ongoing maintenance?

Question4 – Given that no such working set of premises exists for a ‘multi-kulti’ or ‘one-kulti’ community, what premises need to be added, deleted, or what whole new set needs to be introduced?

We recall, that the aim here is to come up with a useful set of premises for either evaluating a community as to its QoL, or describing (designing) one as a more appropriate ideal for the American landscape.  One of the characteristics of an “appropriate ideal” is that its form is stable from the viewpoint of its citizens.

[25sep12 addendum]  I add these thoughts in response to several great comments in which readers have stepped up to address the above premises and questions about the making and make-up of good communities.  Again, the terms I use are in the sense that are defined in the RR Glossary & Semantics.  For easy reference I will structure the following.

1.    According to my lights, people assemble into communities to enable and maintain their Bastiat Triangle of rights – security, property, liberty – which is fundamental to the apologetics put forward in these pages.  Culture subsequently arises in such communities for utilitarian reasons – behaviors and traditions that give pleasure and maintain a mutually accepted social contract.
2.    A cohesive society naturally stratifies in its organization – higher levels tend to prescribe generalized principles, lower levels get into more detail about acceptable and proscribed behaviors.  And in descending into lower levels we see diversification, not every cohort at a given level of organization behaves and solves its problems the same way.
3.    Nature shows us that ideas/methods/memes/… arising from a rich and diverse broth of how different groups of people live their lives contributes to the overall benefit, quality of life, and survival of the society.  Nature goes on to tell us that homogeneity (i.e. systems of high entropy) is the prime characteristic of a path to dissolution and destruction.  In short, large societies of one mind and uniformity don’t do well when confronted with either new dangers or new opportunities.
4.    Private property – its accumulation, use, and sustenance – is the prime motivator of human efforts that are at the margin of satisfying elemental survival needs.  That is, after you know that you’re going to live in the short term, you start gathering and building stuff that will allow you to do so in the longer term.
5.    The fundamental relational attribute of private (as opposed to collective) property is its ownership by an individual.  And ownership comes down to what its owner can do with property.  Specifically, in a de facto or existential sense you own a given property ONLY to the extent that you can dispose of it as you wish.  Modern de juris professions of ownership turn out to be a bamboozle on all concerned, and mostly foisted by government.
6.    The Bastiat Triangle is the most basic and minimal structure of human rights – one cannot weaken one of them without at the same time weakening the other two.  Social orders (governments) on the way to autocracy attempt to give lie to this principle, and thus declare themselves rogue to independent people of goodwill everywhere.
7.    To me, the French revolution’s ‘Liberté, égalité, fraternité’ is the first collectivist Big Lie.  The three – individual liberty, equality of means and station, familial altruism towards all – cannot be increased in concert.  For example, liberty and equality are opposite ends of a see-saw, you cannot increase one without diminishing the other.  But that effective, good-sounding triad and rallying cry has united and motivated fuzzy thinkers to their own detriment for over two centuries now.

So when we come to communities, I see great benefit in a society that is allowed to practice beneficial discrimination in the widest possible sense.  Chairman Mao cynically proclaimed, ‘Let a thousand flowers bloom’ to invite a diversity of ideas from the people to advise the new Chinese communist regime.  He didn’t, but the invitation had, and still has, a universal human appeal.  Everyone understood that good ideas would pour forth from people of goodwill to help build a new and better nation.  It has taken China over a half century to start accepting such diversity of thought, and all to their benefit.

I see tremendous benefit in the existence of many different cultures and ways of thought within a sovereign nation state.   People subscribing to such belief systems should be allowed to be as exclusionary and discriminating as they mutually desire, as long as they do so within the confines and means of their own property.

Capitalism as the overarching principle of organizing the creation and distribution of wealth can readily tolerate and foster enclaves of various forms of collectivism, even communism, within its midst (historically it has done so).  In America, the Constitution provides no strictures against people freely coming together to live in such communities, and having intercourse with such other communities as they wish.  I believe it is one of the many perversions of today’s laws that have diminished property ownership to the extent that such communities are no longer possible.

Yet we still see benefit in doing things our way in our town that need not be copied elsewhere.  Nevada City is a prime example of where people have willingly come together to forsake liberty for certain standards of equality.  And there’s nothing wrong with that as long as the local collective does not violate the ‘takings clause’ of our Constitution.  If you moved into town understanding the local laws (contract), then you did so willingly for what you thought was the greater benefit.  But neither you nor the established collective (local town) should have the ability to force its way of living on other communities.

The problem with such freedoms is that some communities could become exclusionary on the basis of some very questionable (distasteful?) principles, e.g. race, religion, economic standing, education, …, country of origin, culture, sexual preference, etc.  But if they are allowed to set up and maintain such communities, what is our problem with it?  Say, that their exclusionary practices caused them to suffer.  Could they then not change to another mode of behavior until they found what suited them for the long run?  After all, they would be doing so with and within their own properties while paying the appropriate taxes of the land to enjoy the larger public and private benefits.

And in such a landscape we would see communities embracing a rainbow of ideologies and cultures – some would be Amish, some Mormon, some secular humanist (Marin County comes to mind), some would be of Slovenian extraction with public celebrations of Slovenian traditions, some would only let richer people in like Aspen, and so on.  But all would live in environments in which they could dispose of their properties as they will when death or other reasons for displacement require.

While there is much more I can say here, let me finish for now and invite more thoughts on the benefits or evils of which I have described.

Posted in , , , ,

115 responses to “What makes a good community? (addended 25sep12)”

  1. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    I take it then that no true conservative would oppose Roe v Wade since it establishes a woman’s right to have an abortion. So with that in mind why then do so many called conservatives demand the repeal of Roe v Wade. I accept your opposition of public funding for abortions but I consider that a different question. Either abortion is legal or it’s not.
    I accept his as a description of the Court decision
    All state laws limiting women’s access to abortions during the first trimester of pregnancy were invalidated by Roe v. Wade. State laws limiting such access during the second trimester were upheld only when the restrictions were for the purpose of protecting the health of the pregnant woman. Roe v. Wade legalized abortion in the United States, which was not legal at all in many states and was limited by law in others.

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  2. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 820pm – don’t know if I can represent “all true conservatives”. As you point out, abortion comes in all different flavors. And I’m sure that conservatives have all kinds of ideas about the legality of such flavors. My experience is that none (very few?) support the legality of third trimester abortions, and quite a few would support both contraception and the ‘morning after’ type of abortions. But in the final analysis, almost all conservatives would want the federal government to be silent on the matter – leave it to the states.

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  3. Paul Emery Avatar

    So states could then could criminalize abortion in the early stages with whatever penalties they deem necessary to deter the “crime” of abortion. Do you yourself believe Roe v Wade should be overturned?

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  4. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 924pm – I am always searching for ways to minimize federal power over the states, and states power over its cities and counties. Abortion clinics should be legalized at the lowest levels, and people can travel to where they need to get the services local jurisdictions allow.
    My own prediction is that a safe (to the mother) abortion ‘medicine’ will become widely available soon enough that will take care of the first trimester abortions – miss your second period? flush the little bastard right out.
    Yes, RvW should be overturned and abortion returned to the jurisdiction of states along with other powers that they already have over the termination of life.

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  5. Paul Emery Avatar

    So then in your view a woman’s right to decide is not a right protected by the US Constitution. If a state decides to criminalize abortion and send women who do so to prison that’s OK with you.

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  6. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Here’s the [moral] conservative position, from my estimation:
    1) We don’t like abortion, and life begins at ______ (fill in the blank, but it’s pretty early)
    2) Abortion is a States Rights issue, not a Federal one.
    3) States can pay for abortion if they choose, as per #2, but the Federal Government can’t and shouldn’t.
    4) Roe v Wade was one of many rulings (the 14th Amendment) that have made the 9th and 10th even more irrelevant.
    5) Practically speaking, if someone wants an abortion in their State where it is illegal, they should be permitted to travel to a State with more Liberal abortion policies.
    On a side and very strange note, Norma L. McCorvey (that’s Jane Doe), has had rather peculiar moral journey.
    – After Row v Wade, she decided she was a lesbian. That’s groovy.
    – Then she decided she was a born-again Christian, and became a staunch pro-life advocate.
    – Then she sorta renounced he aggressive pro-life stance, sorta.
    – After that, she became a Roman Catholic. (I have no idea how that happened)
    In summary, the woman behind Roe v Wade is a Lesbian, pro-life, fundamentalist Roman Catholic.
    Only in America folks where we only value the adjectives that can preface our identities. I find this amusing.

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  7. Steven Frisch Avatar

    So George, let me see if I have this correct. You live in a country where private property is a cornerstone of our liberty, protected by our Constitution, and your right to private property (for example the deed to your home or the right to do business in the nation under a body of corporate or employment law) is enforced by contracts, guaranteed by the Constitution; yet you do not want to enforce the other rights protected by the Constitution, the right to equal protection under the law. Why should the government guaranteed your contracts if you won’t guarantee equal protection?
    In essence you are saying that your right to property supersedes anothers’ right to liberty; what you choose to do with your property or in making employment choices should supersede other rights.
    Even under Bastiat’s Law (which is not Constitutional law) the right to liberty, property, and security are co-equal. Bastiat’s core theory was that these rights are dependent upon each other. Eliminate one side of the Triangle and the others collapse. Your position is not only inconsistent with American Constitutional law, it is inconstant with Bastiat’s Law.
    “Each of us has a natural right — from God — to defend his person, his liberty, and his property. These are the three basic requirements of life, and the preservation of any one of them is completely dependent upon the preservation of the other two. For what are our faculties but the extension of our individuality? And what is property but an extension of our faculties? If every person has the right to defend even by force — his person, his liberty, and his property, then it follows that a group of men have the right to organize and support a common force to protect these rights constantly. Thus the principle of collective right — its reason for existing, its lawfulness — is based on individual right.”
    Please note the comment: “that a group of men have the right to organize and support a common force to protect these rights constantly”, and “These are the three basic requirements of life, and the preservation of any one of them is completely dependent upon the preservation of the other two.”
    I stand on this plank to state that Frederich Bastiat recognized the co-equal stature of security, liberty and property.
    So in the US we have formed such a government. And that government protects security, liberty and property. A core function of that government is balancing the needs of the three core rights in order to find a way for them to support each other. Those rights are embedded in our Constitution. Regardless of how you or I define liberty, liberty, and the rights derived from our liberty, are defined in our Constitution. That there has been a tension between property rights and liberty is clear.
    Amendment V (1789): “……nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.”
    Amendment XIV (1868): “….nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
    Our nation balanced liberty and property when we amended the Constitution to clarify the equal protection clause. We were forced to do this because a certain group of people (slaveholders) defined their property rights as superseding the right to liberty.
    And our body of law further defined the equal protection clause under the Civil Rights Acts mentioned above.
    Thus, I boldly state that your definition of your property right superseding the modern definition of liberty is inconsistent with American Constitutional law (and I would argue basic American values).
    So although you may wish you had the right to deny selling your home to someone based on race, sex, religion, national origin or just because they do not look right to you; you in fact, do not have that right because their liberty to purchase your property is protected by the equal protection clause. The same is true in employment law. That is why this is nothing but an exercise in ‘magical thinking’.
    Your premise that property supersedes liberty was the reason I began posting on your blog many years ago. Look back at your archives from 2007-2008. Before you made this bold declaration about the supremacy of property rights, before there was a Tea party, or a Republican Congress, or a move to overturn the 14th Amendment, I considered this point of view as nothing but a quaint anachronism, a legacy of 1950’s American Bircherism; but as the movement has grown to strangle governance, attempt to redefine liberty, and define corporations as people I see your position as not only dangerous to individual liberty but a serious threat to national security.

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  8. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Great post Ryan….

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  9. Steven Frisch Avatar

    By the way, by “the right to live or work wherever I want” i meant under the equal protection clause. I have the right to be considered EQUALLY with anyone else considering buying your home. I have the right to be considered EQUALLY with anyone else applying for a job (or accessing a public place, etc..)
    I do not have a right to be considered for the sale of a house or a job if my qualifications do not meet the requirements.
    Our laws, derived from the equal protection clause, spell out the perimeters of those rights.
    So, I may be able to qualify for a loan to purchase a home in a Del Webb community, but I may not qualify to live there due to age restrictions.

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  10. George Rebane Avatar

    StevenF 705am – The progressive and the conservative (at least this conservetarian) have profoundly different understandings of liberty and the Bastiat Triangle. Your exposition of this is excellent, and deserves its own post in RR, and most certainly a hallowed place in ‘The Liberal Mind’.
    We may dispose of the slavery related arguments quickly by recognizing that human beings can no longer be defined as chattel – this appears to be a worldwide acceptance in the pro forma sense.
    I ended my 810pm on liberty with these words –
    As soon as government puts a gun to my head and says I have to hire or sell, then my liberty is curtailed. You have no right to my property in any shape or form, and I have no rights to yours. In other words our individual liberties do not involve or depend upon our being enabled to dispose of the other’s property contrary to its owner’s will.
    I think there is where we most likely have a wide divergence of what liberty means in a free society. And I further maintain that if my Bastiat Triangle is weakened, then we start on the slippery slope to autocracy through the siren song and well trod path of broad-based democracy.

    Since it turns out we also have widely disparate understandings of what is private property and its ownership, and since your dissertation on individual liberties is based on such a non-Bastiatian understanding of property, there is nothing in your argument that would cause me to modify any of the above.
    I hold that our Founders and Bastiat held precisely the same meaning of private property. To make progress here, we will have go to this meta level and attempt agreement (or outline the origin of our difference).

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  11. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    Private property as we know it died in 1913. Even today I can’t legally do much of anything with ‘my property’ (income, land, home, cars, etc) without government permission. The notion of property tax or income tax or gas tax or …. has stripped us of our property rights.
    ‘Today’ the government/collective owns everything and permits fools like me to borrow their property.
    “None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free.” –Johann von Goethe

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  12. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    I consider abortion a personal moral issue. The government (Fed/State) should not be involved.
    There is no reason why the government should know your sexual preference either.
    $16 TRILLION in debt and we are focused on sex, God help us.

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  13. Steven Frisch Avatar

    That may be the most ridiculous non-response I have ever seen. Your point is essentially, “we see things differently”. I support my case with direct quotes from the Constitution, and Bastaiat, and a cogent case being made that rights are a balancing act, and you respond, “oh well, we just disagree”.
    Government is not “putting a gun to my head and says[ing] I have to hire and sell…” Government is saying that if you want government to enforce your contracts, and respect your property, you have to play by a set of rules that balances the rights of the individual with the rights of other individuals, including their property rights, in the society. That is the very definition of governance.; the management of power and policy to support collective social values and meet collective social ends.
    Thus I hold the ‘magical thinking’ ground against you; you wish to have rights, while deny others rights, which is just never going to happen.
    There could be no more clear example of the moral, legal and logical bankruptcy of your basic premise, that private property rights trump individual rights.
    Finally, your vision of property rights, and its accouterment (land, houses, stocks, or socks), denies the first premise of property rights; that man has a property interest IN HIS OWN BEING, that he is the master of himself, and that laws which restrict the self unequally, are a violation of my property rights in my own being. So you may dismiss the 14th amendment off hand, but the legal tenets underlying the amendment are based on this very concept; I own myself, and owning myself all of my transactions deserve to be treated on a equal footing with every other member of society. Thus if I am denied the right to purchase a home, my right to own property, to use my capital at my discretion, and my freedom of self-determination, is restricted. In short, my property rights require equal protection to even exist.
    “..we also have widely disparate understandings of what is private property and its ownership.” is not going to suffice.

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  14. Steven Frisch Avatar

    I should have said you respond with the functional equivalent of, “..oh well, we just disagree…”. I don’t want to leave the impression that I am directly quoting you.

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  15. Steven Frisch Avatar

    And to McD: the Constitution simultaneously created the right to own private property and the right to tax and regulate, and created a threshold, the ‘takings clause’, to define when government has exceeded the right of private property. That right, like every other, has been defined by the US Supreme Court. The court has consistently held that the takings clause defines just compensation as “the market value of the property at the time of the taking.” (see Olsen v. United States, 1934). So in short, although you may wish to interpret the Constitution to mean that you have a right to do whatever you want on your property without ‘government permission’, you have never enjoyed such a right under the Constitution. The Constitution says that if government restricts your right to do whatever you want, and it is either unequally applied or inconsistent with other interests of the state (such as eminent domaine, the police power of the state, or power to tax), then you must be compensated.

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  16. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 920pm – my response was not a dismissive ‘we just don’t agree’. I claim that you fundamentally misunderstand what the Constitution and Bastiat say about private property. For example, there is nothing in the Constitution that either defines or embraces liberty in terms of allowing a person to dispose of another person’s private property. That is a progressive ruse which has contributed considerably to the deconstruction of all our freedoms.
    One more time, slightly restated – the Constitution does not guarantee anyone the right to dispose of another’s private property; it does exactly the opposite in guaranteeing the sanctity of such property from the ravages of thieves and an unscrupulous government.

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  17. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    Steve your 9:20am post is in error.
    One example being the progressive tax system which does not match a moral code whereby equality in the law is exhibited. It is, an envious mob empowered by democracy using the gun of government against the private property of another class. Period.
    In practice it is one class stripping another of their rights of private property. If that (mob rule) is the working definition of governance then I am an anarchist. Collectivism is slavery.
    ” That is the very definition of governance. the management of power and policy to support collective social values and meet collective social ends.”

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  18. Steven Frisch Avatar

    McD–I don’t want to devolve into a debate on the American tax code here and divert from the core philosophical issues being raised—George perhaps you could start another thread on the supposed inherent inequality of the US tax code? Suffice it to say that taxes fall under the definitions attached to the “takings clause”, a graduated income tax has been consistently upheld by the SCOTUS as constitutional, and, as I have stated above, the “just compensation” language of the “takings clause” kicks in if that is found not to be the case.
    Re: the definition of governance–I would entertain any alternative definition you wish to propose that is based on fact and scholarly interpretation.

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  19. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    In your view does a person own his or hers body and is that protected by the constitution.

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  20. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Re: George Rebane | 27 September 2012 at 09:47 AM
    “…..there is nothing in the Constitution that either defines or embraces liberty in terms of allowing a person to dispose of another person’s private property.”
    I think I quoted the section of the Constitution that allows the state to dispose of another persons private property.
    It is the “taking clause” of the 5th amendment, which states, “……nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.”
    If it is true that the state cannot take property without just compensation, the underlying premise is that the state can take property, if just compensation is paid. Thus the concept is both defined and embraced. Any other reading of this clause would not only be nonsensical, it would be contrary to the findings of the SCOTUS for the last 230 years.

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  21. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1009am – great question Paul. Apparently the ‘ownership’ of one’s own body is interpreted in terms of the person’s assessed ability to properly dispose of that body. For example, we deprive the insane and the young of such ownership.
    However, with regard to pregnancy, I think the dividing point here comes with the definition of the body’s boundary. Is a carried fetus a continuation of the mother’s body? Given the independence of the nervous and other functional systems of the fetus, and its natural physical limits, I would argue that the fetus is not the mother’s body. And if so, it comes under the consideration (protection?) of laws that are intended to safeguard bodies, especially those bodies not capable of properly taking care of themselves.
    SteveF 1014am – Let’s not confuse the disposition of properties by peer entities under a form of governance, with that of the state that is the implementing form of governance, and serves the collective will of those who have formed it and continue to sustain it. Recall that I speak of “… allowing a person to dispose of another person’s private property.”

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  22. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Well I am not quite sure how to read this response. Are you saying that you don’t mind property rights being taken by the government if they pay just compensation, but you do mind them being taken by individuals? Well, I heartily agree. I am no fan of stealing.
    Define for me how a person (how do you do those italics?) can deny another person of property, within the body of the law? If I steal your property I am subject to the law; if I damage your property I am subject to the law. All I am saying is that if you steal my property, that is my right to use my person, MY BEING, you should also be subject to the law. And if you are talking of a person disposing of another’s private property why do you use the “government gun at the head” as the example above?
    I fear that in the face of a cogent case you are no longer making sense!

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  23. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 1133am – I have said nowhere that I am sanguine about government’s taking of property. But in the collective sense even we conservetarians believe that a legitimate government has the right to take/appropriate private property for just compensation when it is in the interest of an obvious/established greater good. The legitimate examples for this kind of ‘taking’ abound, as do its corrupt counterparts.
    [Most web text editors are designed to search for and interpret HTML code before rendering the text. Italics are created within an interval of text (a string) that is delimited with a “<” then”i” then “>” at the start and a “<” then “/” then “i” then “>” at the end. Similarly, text can be made bold by substituting a ‘b’ for the ‘i’ in the above.]
    Within the current “body of law” there are too many cases in which it is impossible to deny PersonA certain dispositions of the property of PersonB. To that extent (as in many other cases) the law has become perverse, and has already diminished the meaning of ownership as thoroughly covered in these pages over the last years. In these discussions we should never assume that law and justice fly in tight formation – and that includes ‘justice under existing law’.
    (As any good lawyer will tell you over a glass of wine, our legal system is a total crapshoot, thereby making pretrial settlements the lavish standard when it comes to complaints/suits. E.g. the notorious PG&E ‘Erin Brockovich’ case.)
    In your sense of justice, fairness, etc regarding property rights, you assert that these include the right of an individual (PersonA) to spend his money (i.e. to unilaterally enter into an enforceable contract) to purchase some good or service belonging to another person (PersonB) and against that person’s will. Therefore, denying that unilateral ability to dispose of PersonB’s property denies PersonA his liberty, and the complete ownership of his money/property. This in my view is an extreme perversion of the Bastiat Triangle’s tenets.
    On our money is printed ‘This note is legal tender for all debts public and private.’ Nowhere in the Constitution, nor in the recorded beliefs of our Founders, does it contemplate that any person is privileged, let alone guaranteed a right, to enter into a two-party agreement and obligation (i.e. debt) without the consent of the other party.
    I emphasize the ‘government’s gun’ because people habitually overlook the raw fact that ‘at the bottom of every stack of government regulations lies the marshall’s gun.’ (from a writing by the young Alan Greenspan) If you resist the implementation of a regulation and its subsequent government enforcement, you will be killed – and that goes all way down to what kind of lightbulbs you are now required to use in the ceiling of your remodeled kitchen.
    This illustrates that certain kinds of takings of individual liberties and their concomitant private properties are naturally so odious that the government must step in, threaten to, and, if necessary, enforce at the pain of death, for nothing less will do.
    Steve, I hope this helps at least a little. But will it make sense to you and yours? given your previous writings and your excellent and elucidating 705am, I see little chance of it.

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  24. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    Steve, my tax code comment was 1 simple example of how your ‘equality under the laws’ argument is illogical. Furthermore, it exemplifies how a mob can use the heavy hand of government to steal from another. Your definition allows for/promotes the use of mob rule (democracy) to target one class of citizen by another. The top wage earners are robbed by the votes of the low wager earners (obviously the “Takings Clause” does not apply). Under current law the property of one man is treated differently than the property of another man, that is not equality under the law.
    I could have used employee versus employer rights to make the same point (or myriads of other examples – landlords vrs renters, etc). In the employee versus employer example one class has fought to stripe another of their equal rights. Employers don’t have 1/10th of the rights that employees have attained through mob rule. Again the “Takings Clause” does not apply.

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  25. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    At the Farm/Food Conference last year a guest speaker suggested that ‘Americans [he was Canadian] should vote to have government take un-used agriculture land away from land owners who are not generating food for society’. This is no different than our tax code. A mob agreeing to steal from the individual for the benefit of the collective. Private property died in 1913.

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  26. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Re:Posted by: THEMIKEYMCD | 27 September 2012 at 03:38 PM
    “Steve, my tax code comment was 1 simple example of how your ‘equality under the laws’ argument is illogical.”
    McD: please tell me specifically how my statement is illogical. One of the things I have liked about this thread is that it has been coldly fact based. If my statement is illogical please tell me how the the progressive tax code is unfair or as you contend immoral, and cite sources and examples. That way we can avoid a conversation about FEELINGS.
    “One example being the progressive tax system which does not match a moral code whereby equality in the law is exhibited. It is, an envious mob empowered by democracy using the gun of government against the private property of another class. Period.”

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  27. Steven Frisch Avatar

    George, I am going to have to get to you tomorrow morning. I am off to do a presentation on what California Ballot Propositions would mean for California business.

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  28. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Well for starters Steven, with regards to Mikey’s comments, the Progressive Tax system violates the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. And probably the Due Process one as well.
    And I know this has been challenged in court, and lost, but it’s weird to me that we can promote same-sex marriage under the provisions of the 14th Amendment (something I support), yet discriminate against an entire class of citizens by requiring them to pay more taxes than others.
    I have yet to hear a compelling argument on why certain citizens should be taxed more or less than others. The whole “rich people use more” therefore they deserve to pay more is the most often cited fallacy.

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  29. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    Thanks for the factual support Rebane and Mount.
    I would add the 5th, 9th and 10th Amendments (to the aforementioned 14th Amendment) to protect individual private property rights from government/collective.
    I purposely used the term immoral as a place holder for stealing/looting/plundering which any decent human would see as immoral activities. Surely you don’t believe that an activity is moral based on being ‘accepted’ by a majority (think Nazi Germany)?
    “Government is saying that if you want government to enforce your contracts, and respect your property, you have to play by a set of rules that balances the rights of the individual with the rights of other individuals, including their property rights, in the society.” This is one of your illogical statements (I use the progressive tax system as my case and point). You are claiming some equality among individuals when in fact a mob/majority votes to steal (an immoral act) from the minority. The progressive tax system’s attack on individual property is akin to the segregation of black Americans that taints our history.

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  30. billy T Avatar

    The erosion of individual liberties and rights is what saddens me. If all politics are residential, then it does not matter to me what Romney pays on capital gains taxes. What matters to be is what I pay on taxes. Obama set to tax folks 40% on dividends. Better off not investing in America. Not even Obama’s recovery bonds.
    Forget community. We have a global thing here, one big international love fest, nations without borders.
    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/27/as-un-opens-its-general-assembly-session-it-is-already-thinking-up-new-global/

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  31. Ryan Mount Avatar

    If you want less of something, be sure to tax it, billy T.
    I still don’t get why modern Progressives, and even mainstream folks, think it’s a good idea to prop-up a 100 year old tax system that was born from a radically different age. (Well, occasionally I hear people evoke our neo-guilded age as a call to arms for modern Progressivism, but I still think we’re a VERY long way away from an Upton Sinclair novel) It’s funny how Modern Liberals are really Conservatives. Well, not funny. Dumb.
    I find it also amusing how dismissive modern Liberals are about the Founding “Fathers,” especially since they are literally playing right out of the Alexander Hamilton playbook in their “government is the answer” strong central government rantings.
    And speaking of that irony, Alexander Hamilton was a proponent of a Consumption Tax, which you’d think Liberals would happily support. And as a rhetorical question, one has to wonder why they are so attached to an antiquated Progressive Tax system.
    I need to stop before I start sounding like that lunatic Glenn Beck.
    Again, I anxiously wait for an answer other than the typical “they deserve it”(class warfare) and “their workers built their wealth” (neo-guilded age rhetoric) and “they use more.”(the traditional rationale for Progressive Tax policy). There are a few irrational others.
    A Consumption Tax addresses all of those Progressive “concerns.” And it’s neutral on the underclasses in it’s current proposals like the Fair Tax.
    Sorry for the length of this rant. 🙂

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  32. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    Ryan, I share your frustrations about the progressive’s arguments supporting the progressive tax system. Perhaps what pains me the most is that they claim equality via such an openly unequal system. Ugh. By now y’all know that I use the progressive tax system to highlight how hypocritical/illogical/immoral the progressives ideology is (using gov as their collective gun). It’s an argument I can’t lose.
    Progressives claim to fight for equality using an unjust system. Tax code is but one example.
    Progressives empower government to allow for corporatism, but that is for another comment stream.

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  33. Earl Crabb Avatar

    Ryan – The Democrats have spent generations building the monstrosity we have today, a system that sucks money out of your pocket and is then doled back to you in little increments if you support their next scheme to suck money out of someone else’s pocket. Asking them to throw it out is like asking a Christian to throw out the Bible. The only Democrat who did that was Jefferson, who deleted the parts about miracles and kept the stuff that could work in real life.

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  34. Steven Frisch Avatar

    OK, so it appears that rather than sticking with the theory of property rights we are going to get into the “tax equity” issue. I still think that that should be a separate thread, but I will bow to George’s moderation on this one.
    The first component of the tax equity issue is federal income tax, and the proportional distribution of federal income tax. In short, it is my contention that the proportion of federal income tax being paid by the top 10% of wage earners in the country is not a tax issue, it is a wage issue. While the earnings of the bottom 90% have stayed stable over the last 50 years (causing me to seriously question just how committed to the American Dream the top 10% really is) and the bottom 50% have actually gone down when adjusted for inflation, the earnings of the top 10% have skyrocketed. That means the top 10% are paying a higher percentage of the federal income tax, but to contend it is disproportionately high is a fallacy. They are paying more because they are earning more. If conservatarians want to reverse this trend they can do it by adopting policies that share a greater portion of the earning with the middle 50% and they will pay more federal income taxes.
    here is a great set of charts that make that case: http://www.businessinsider.com/who-pays-taxes-2012-8?op=1
    Please make sure you go through the whole set.
    I will deal with the second component of the “tax equity” issue later: the fact that measuring tax equity by federal income tax is inherently inaccurate, since the total portion of the tax burden, when factoring in sales and use, property, local and state, and payroll taxes, actually shows a different picture. When the TOTAL tax burden is factored in the burden is actually much more proportionally equal.
    Finally, I will deal with the ‘moral” issue, whether a graduated income tax is “fair” later as well.

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  35. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Ryan, I am wondering if you could do me a favor and dig into your contention that the progressive income tax system violates the equal protection clause of the Constitution. While you are doing that I will look at the legal and Constitutional arguments that have led to the progressive income tax system being consistently upheld in our courts, and post here.
    I am really trying to get away from the blanket statements of “I believe” and get to the fact based case here.
    By the way, re: your second point, I am not saying “rich people use more thus they should be taxed more” I am saying rich people earn more thus they should be taxed more.

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  36. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Steven-
    I mentioned above that the Progressive Tax system has been upheld but the courts over time. Doesn’t mean I think it’s just, nor do I think that it’s rational, nor do I think it’s consistent with the 14th Amendment. (it isn’t)
    History is littered with poor Constitutional decisions by the courts. If we were, for example, to use my admitted liberal interpretation of the 14th Amendment, we wouldn’t need the 19th.
    However, to your very last point, I actually agree to some extent. But not on the productivity side. I think people should pay more taxes on the consumption side.
    However, you need to provide more evidence and a rationale about why the “rich people earn more thus they should be taxed more.”
    But to paraphrase RL above, who I think gets it, “if grandma had wheels, she’d be a wagon.” Tax reform, in a very meaningful sense is never going to happen as long as the government keeps the electorate (of all income strata) on the hook. For example, the mortgage income deduction that the middle class cherishes or the numerous “credits” for the low to lower middle class. Not to mention the the shell game we play with the rich.

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  37. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Bob, I think you need to look at the facts before blaming Democrats for “a system that sucks money out of your pocket and is then doled back to you in little increments”. First, my contention would be that if that is the case it has been done by both Democrats and Republicans, as supported by this list of the top 10 tax increases in modern American history done by PolitiFact and FactCheck using CBO numbers:
    As a percent of GDP, here are Tempalski’s top 10 tax increases from 1940-2006:
    1. Revenue Act of 1942: 5.04 percent of GDP; 2. Revenue Act of 1961: 2.2 percent; 3. Current Tax Payment Act of 1943: 1.13 percent; 4(t). Revenue and Expenditure Control Act of 1968: 1.09 percent; 4(t) Revenue and Expenditure Control Act of 1968: 1.09 percent; 6. Excess Profits Tax of 1950: 0.97 percent; 7. Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982: 0.8 percent; 8(t): Crude Oil Windfall Profit Tax Act of 1980: 0.5 percent; 8(t): Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993; 0.5 percent; 10. Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990: 0.49 percent.
    Their data goes on to show that without factoring in savings, the ACA tax would come in a .49 percent of GDP, tied for 10th.
    And if your contention is that Republicans may have raised taxes but they also cut taxes here is the comparison of the Kennedy, Reagan and Bush tax cuts:
    http://taxfoundation.org/article/comparing-kennedy-reagan-and-bush-tax-cuts
    But wait: President Obama’s tax cut in 2009 was $282 billion. If one adjusts Obama’s $282 billion and compares it to the Kennedy, Reagan and Bush tax cuts, Obama is the biggest tax cutter in US history. And if one looks at the aggregate effect of all of the policies American are now paying less in federal taxes than they have since 1955.
    http://www.ocregister.com/news/-117079-ocprint–.html
    If your contention is that this is not an apple to apple comparison I will note that both Reagan and Obama have been in the ranks of both the top 10 tax cutters, and (Obama barely) the top 10 tax increasers.

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  38. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    Is it not true that a wealthy man would pay more in $ terms than a poor man if both paid the same % of income?
    Regarding 9:35am
    No different than saying ‘darker skinned people should have different (less) rights than a lighter skinned man.’ (a belief upheld for years by the rule of law).
    “I am saying rich people earn more thus they should be taxed more. ” Posted by: Steven Frisch | 28 September 2012 at 09:35 AM

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  39. Steven Frisch Avatar

    I am hoping that someone will get on and make the Constitutional argument against a graduated (or progressive) income tax system. If we are going to stay true to the original cases being made in this thread about the relationship between liberty, property, and security, it would be a valuable framework for the discussion.
    By the way Ryan, I agree with you that a more liberal interpretation of the 14th amendment would have meant the right for women to vote in 1868; however the operative portion of the 14th amendment that would have made the 19th amendment un-necessary, is the very same “equal protection” clause that I am arguing for a liberal interpretation of in order to guarantee equal access to housing, employment..etc. Don’t you find that somewhat ironic?
    Finally, if we want to get into a side conversation about actually reforming the tax system and shifting to a consumption tax, once again a discussion that I believe deserves a separate thread, I am all for it. I agree, and would like to shift a large portion of the federal tax revenue equation to a value added tax (VAT), which is a consumption tax. A VAT would tax goods and services which means stock transactions would be taxed, investment portfolios would be taxed when changes are made, all purchases would be taxed…but once again, we are not in the world of magical thinking. I can’t wave a magic wand….we have the system we have.

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  40. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    The real world:
    My taxes were slashed by Bush Tax Cuts (his best policy decision in 8 years)
    My taxes have risen (slightly) under the Obama Admin (using every metric I can measure)
    My taxes will SOAR if Bush Tax Cuts expire (I am already decreasing my revenue, laid off employees, will not hire to cope, fighting growth/production, not taking risks, etc)

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  41. George Rebane Avatar

    Administrivia – Gentlemen, I believe the ‘tax thread’ in this comment stream evolved from Mikey’s use of progressive taxation as another example of liberals’ promoting inequality and depriving liberty, which was central to the ongoing private property thread that revolved around the centrality of the Bastiat Triangle.
    The contributions on diverse views of liberty and property herein are well stated and important. My preference is that we continue the property/liberty thread so as to complete it (to the extent possible in this comment stream) and make later access to it more direct and simpler.
    I’d like to continue the taxation issue in the stream that follows a post on taxation, so that can be as ‘self-standing’ as possible. To this end I invite one or more byline pieces on the fundamentals of taxation from the various ideological viewpoints. Perhaps Mikey and/or RyanM could pen some words from the Right, and SteveF and/or PaulE could do the same from the Left. Please email them to me at gjrebane@gmail.com and I will post them.
    Needless to say, I continue to be heartened by the considerable arguments that are presented in these streams in the form of well-thought mini essays based upon reason and data as interpreted by their authors.
    If you wish to do what I suggest, please feel free to cut and paste your already good and pithy arguments from this and previous streams in order to compile your byline opening rounds. Never let a good thought go to waste – they can and should be recycled 😉

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  42. Steven Frisch Avatar

    OK my little brain is having a hard time understanding exactly what you are referring to McD:
    “Is it not true that a wealthy man would pay more in $ terms than a poor man if both paid the same % of income?”
    Of course that is true, that is the case I am making. For the past 50 years earning of the bottom and middle 90% have stayed relatively stable when adjusted for inflation. Earnings for the top 10% have gone up. Thus the amount the top 10% pays in $ terms has gone up, even while the amount they pay as a % of income has gone down. What I am struggling with is how you can find this unfair?
    “Regarding 9:35am
    No different than saying ‘darker skinned people should have different (less) rights than a lighter skinned man.’ (a belief upheld for years by the rule of law).”
    I am sorry, I don’t know what you are referring to here. I looked back at 9:35 am and can’t find it.
    “I am saying rich people earn more thus they should be taxed more. ” Posted by: Steven Frisch | 28 September 2012 at 09:35 AM”

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  43. Steven Frisch Avatar

    OH, I promise I will work to get these html codes worked out. McD, do you understand my post?

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  44. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Steven-
    “is the very same “equal protection” clause that I am arguing for a liberal interpretation of in order to guarantee equal access to housing, employment..etc. Don’t you find that somewhat ironic?”
    Well, it seems we’re smoking out the argument. I agree with this and not ironic in the slightest. Discrimination, is illegal. And I’m not that kind of Libertarian, on a personal note. So that’s where I depart from the more Anarcho-Capitalist types. And I suppose my Humboldt State is showing.
    The government is there to protect liberties of both property owners and renters and to uphold and enforce contracts. Now I’ll agree that property owners are getting the shaft, but by the same token I have no problem going after someone who deliberately discriminates against someone (again, the key word is discrimination) who is African-American. Proving that is another tricky proposition.
    However, it’s a [very] long gap from “equal access to housing,” which I support, to the government giving you housing.
    When it comes to taxation, and I sense your reluctance to provide a rationale here, the Progressive Tax system is by it’s nature discriminatory. It’s OK for the government to discriminate against rich (and poor for that matter).
    But never mind the war of ideas Steven, how about a direct question for the blog:
    Q: Is what we have working and fixable.
    On that parting question, I leave you with Obama’s well-intentioned (and I mean that) attempts to plug some of the tax holes that has America’s panties in a bundle:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act
    The ghost of Bastiat laughs heartily at us at our good intentions.

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  45. Steven Frisch Avatar

    George: I appreciate your Adminstrivia and will lay out my thoughts on taxation in a single treatise that we can take pro and con positions on.
    “The graduated income tax system is both fair and constitutional.”
    It may take a day or two to get this done. I do work.

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  46. Ryan Mount Avatar

    trying to unBOLD.

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  47. Steven Frisch Avatar

    I am also trying to unBOLD and failing. I suspect user error!

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  48. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Ryan, please note, I did not start this thread, nor base my case, on the idea of providing people with housing. I based my case on what I believe to be the fact that there is no mechanism for the type of benign discrimination that George describes. How do you tell the difference between someone who benignly discriminates based on “we just like your culture” and someone who criminally discriminates based on “you’re a black, a Jew, a homosexual or a liberal?”

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