Rebane's Ruminations
September 2012
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George Rebane

It all depends on your definition of how is it ‘good’ for whom.  The notion (meme?) of assessing and/or building a good community started as a thread in my ‘… = Sleazebag’ post.  But it deserves its own venue, because the arguments from the Left and Right will reveal much of what is considered by both sides to be wrong with America today.  Being residents of a small and remote rural county in these Sierra foothills allows us to dissect this issue from its generalized national scope down to the level of our own intimate main streets.

Communities
In the following, I use ‘culture’ as defined in the RR Glossary & Semantics category. 

Let me proceed with some premises and questions.


Premise1 – Americans should have the ability to choose what kind of a community they want to plan, build, and live in without fear of being forced by their government to do otherwise.

Premise2 – America will be a more peaceful, cohesive, secure, and productive country with a spectrum of communities each determining locally how much diversity it wishes to enjoy within its geographical confines or region of influence.

Premise3 – A culture (be it social, technical, religious, …) will survive only to the extent that it has environments in which it can be nurtured and inter-generationally herited, and in which it can practice discrimination so as to minimize the diluting influences of competing cultures.  Corollary – absent external forces, ‘multi-kulti’ environments tend toward a dominant culture starting with the elimination of the weakest cultures in its mix.

Premise4 – Americans should have the ability to group themselves according to any criteria and/or attributes they consider proper, so long as such groupings do not form for the explicit purpose of eliminating or harming another grouping.

Premise5 – Local sustainability and self-reliance promotes the stability and self-determination of communities.  Corollary – self-determination and individual liberties are minimized to the extent that a community is forced to rely on outside single-sourced resources.

Premise6 – Cultures arise, live, and die.  No one culture should be penalized so as to prevent the natural decline of another culture.  All cultures of today need not be here tomorrow.

Premise7 – Utility (what is ‘good’) is a subjective measure usually consisting of multiple attributes.  Neither a single utility, nor any of its specific attributes, are necessarily shared by more than one culture.  Therefore, all cultures are not of equal worth to anyone.

Premise8 – No individual has the right to force a group to abandon the local/regional practice of any established culture’s traditions, celebrations, observances, … .

Question1 – To what extent are any of these premises unconstitutional?

Question2 – To what extent would the implementation of any of these premises be detrimental to the overall quality of life (QOL) in the United States?  How?

Question3 – Which of these premises do not belong in the evaluation of an existing community and/or informing its formation and ongoing maintenance?

Question4 – Given that no such working set of premises exists for a ‘multi-kulti’ or ‘one-kulti’ community, what premises need to be added, deleted, or what whole new set needs to be introduced?

We recall, that the aim here is to come up with a useful set of premises for either evaluating a community as to its QoL, or describing (designing) one as a more appropriate ideal for the American landscape.  One of the characteristics of an “appropriate ideal” is that its form is stable from the viewpoint of its citizens.

[25sep12 addendum]  I add these thoughts in response to several great comments in which readers have stepped up to address the above premises and questions about the making and make-up of good communities.  Again, the terms I use are in the sense that are defined in the RR Glossary & Semantics.  For easy reference I will structure the following.

1.    According to my lights, people assemble into communities to enable and maintain their Bastiat Triangle of rights – security, property, liberty – which is fundamental to the apologetics put forward in these pages.  Culture subsequently arises in such communities for utilitarian reasons – behaviors and traditions that give pleasure and maintain a mutually accepted social contract.
2.    A cohesive society naturally stratifies in its organization – higher levels tend to prescribe generalized principles, lower levels get into more detail about acceptable and proscribed behaviors.  And in descending into lower levels we see diversification, not every cohort at a given level of organization behaves and solves its problems the same way.
3.    Nature shows us that ideas/methods/memes/… arising from a rich and diverse broth of how different groups of people live their lives contributes to the overall benefit, quality of life, and survival of the society.  Nature goes on to tell us that homogeneity (i.e. systems of high entropy) is the prime characteristic of a path to dissolution and destruction.  In short, large societies of one mind and uniformity don’t do well when confronted with either new dangers or new opportunities.
4.    Private property – its accumulation, use, and sustenance – is the prime motivator of human efforts that are at the margin of satisfying elemental survival needs.  That is, after you know that you’re going to live in the short term, you start gathering and building stuff that will allow you to do so in the longer term.
5.    The fundamental relational attribute of private (as opposed to collective) property is its ownership by an individual.  And ownership comes down to what its owner can do with property.  Specifically, in a de facto or existential sense you own a given property ONLY to the extent that you can dispose of it as you wish.  Modern de juris professions of ownership turn out to be a bamboozle on all concerned, and mostly foisted by government.
6.    The Bastiat Triangle is the most basic and minimal structure of human rights – one cannot weaken one of them without at the same time weakening the other two.  Social orders (governments) on the way to autocracy attempt to give lie to this principle, and thus declare themselves rogue to independent people of goodwill everywhere.
7.    To me, the French revolution’s ‘Liberté, égalité, fraternité’ is the first collectivist Big Lie.  The three – individual liberty, equality of means and station, familial altruism towards all – cannot be increased in concert.  For example, liberty and equality are opposite ends of a see-saw, you cannot increase one without diminishing the other.  But that effective, good-sounding triad and rallying cry has united and motivated fuzzy thinkers to their own detriment for over two centuries now.

So when we come to communities, I see great benefit in a society that is allowed to practice beneficial discrimination in the widest possible sense.  Chairman Mao cynically proclaimed, ‘Let a thousand flowers bloom’ to invite a diversity of ideas from the people to advise the new Chinese communist regime.  He didn’t, but the invitation had, and still has, a universal human appeal.  Everyone understood that good ideas would pour forth from people of goodwill to help build a new and better nation.  It has taken China over a half century to start accepting such diversity of thought, and all to their benefit.

I see tremendous benefit in the existence of many different cultures and ways of thought within a sovereign nation state.   People subscribing to such belief systems should be allowed to be as exclusionary and discriminating as they mutually desire, as long as they do so within the confines and means of their own property.

Capitalism as the overarching principle of organizing the creation and distribution of wealth can readily tolerate and foster enclaves of various forms of collectivism, even communism, within its midst (historically it has done so).  In America, the Constitution provides no strictures against people freely coming together to live in such communities, and having intercourse with such other communities as they wish.  I believe it is one of the many perversions of today’s laws that have diminished property ownership to the extent that such communities are no longer possible.

Yet we still see benefit in doing things our way in our town that need not be copied elsewhere.  Nevada City is a prime example of where people have willingly come together to forsake liberty for certain standards of equality.  And there’s nothing wrong with that as long as the local collective does not violate the ‘takings clause’ of our Constitution.  If you moved into town understanding the local laws (contract), then you did so willingly for what you thought was the greater benefit.  But neither you nor the established collective (local town) should have the ability to force its way of living on other communities.

The problem with such freedoms is that some communities could become exclusionary on the basis of some very questionable (distasteful?) principles, e.g. race, religion, economic standing, education, …, country of origin, culture, sexual preference, etc.  But if they are allowed to set up and maintain such communities, what is our problem with it?  Say, that their exclusionary practices caused them to suffer.  Could they then not change to another mode of behavior until they found what suited them for the long run?  After all, they would be doing so with and within their own properties while paying the appropriate taxes of the land to enjoy the larger public and private benefits.

And in such a landscape we would see communities embracing a rainbow of ideologies and cultures – some would be Amish, some Mormon, some secular humanist (Marin County comes to mind), some would be of Slovenian extraction with public celebrations of Slovenian traditions, some would only let richer people in like Aspen, and so on.  But all would live in environments in which they could dispose of their properties as they will when death or other reasons for displacement require.

While there is much more I can say here, let me finish for now and invite more thoughts on the benefits or evils of which I have described.

Posted in , , , ,

115 responses to “What makes a good community? (addended 25sep12)”

  1. Russ Steele Avatar

    Let start with Premise #1. Yes Americans should have the ability chose. . . without fear of being forces by their government of do otherwise.
    We chose to return to California after 20 years in the Air Force, hoping to bring my family back to my childhood home and a caring community of friends and neighbors. For the most part we have found that to be the case, with the exception of the State of California exerting more and more rules on how we must live our lives. We are being forced to live a much different life than the one of my youth. My children have been exploited by a failed education system, we are paying higher energy bills due the restrictions on wood burning and alternative energy mandates, higher fuel prices due to environmental rules, and limited choices on the kind of vehicle we can drive in the future. How we spend out limited resources are being constrained by the zoning rules designed to limit population and economic growth in the community. We are currently anchored to this community by our grandchildren in Roseville and and our close friends who live in the community, else we would be making other choices, outside of the reach of the California EPA, Air Resources Board, Nanny Legislators, and Political Bullies.

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  2. TomKenworth Avatar

    We needs more cultural diversity exchanges. Look at this to se what can be done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI9KBLb_8ro&feature=share

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  3. TomKenworth Avatar

    Russ, it would seem your children and grandchildren do not find California as odious as you do. Or are they chained up? What keeps them from moving to your hypothetical, “better states?”

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  4. billy T Avatar

    Dr. Rebane, I will limit this first post to communities in general and add local themes later (You lucky dogs, you).
    The first thing that pops out is most of your Premises are self evident. The right and freedom of association is guaranteed by the Constitution. Individual rights are protected. I suppose it is a sign of the times that we have to utter that which used to be taken for granted and acknowledged.
    Remember when the community was blessed with having speakers come to town espousing the virtues of the Buy Local theme? Great ideas in theory. They mentioned Boulder, Co. and Bellingham, WA as the two examples we should follow. This was about the time someone gave me my first computer. A dangerous gift.
    I got on line and searched the City of Boulder, Co . Found out that the median age was something like 29 and the average age was way lower than here. Way lower. The biggest employers were the University of Colorado, Microsoft, and The City and County of Boulder. Very high percentage of single people. Large stable employers with a lot of young single people. Does not sound like Western Nevada County.
    Next I looked up Bellingham, WA. Home of Western Washington State College, known today as Western Washington University. Again, large employers. Lots of young single people. The ocean, the harbors, and a bunch of malls. Every big name box store was there. Not exactly Nevada County either. Lots of idealistic university students ready to party down and buy local. Local piazza and beer that is.
    So, we must look at our community with the assets we have. A 10% grade leading to the local airport in winter. A detour between The Bay and Tahoe or between Sacramento and Reno. Take your pick. That is our starting point.

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  5. TomKenworth Avatar

    On CNN right now, 8:04 pm Sunday, Germany leads the way with apprenticeship programs for youth. Seimens alone trains and hires 10,000 kids.

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  6. Russ Steele Avatar

    TK27:29PM
    My CA children do not see the same world we do. That is their choice and we respect it, thought we may not agree with their views. Life has many challenges and we accept them all.

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  7. George Rebane Avatar

    billyT 753pm – Mr Tozer, I would be very surprised if any of those premises would appeal to a progressive. If such an exception be presented, then I wager it will be accompanied by a ‘ton’ of codicils and contingencies to make it palatable. (Premise5 may be the most acceptable to them, but then again … )

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  8. Paul Emery Avatar

    Catching up on this thread.
    Mikey
    I take it you support Dams on the South Fork of the Yuba River and all the Eminent Domain government taking of private lands ar are part of the process. It was not the conservatives that led the charge to protect the Yuba from the trash hydro projects that were in the works in the late 80’s. That was the start of SYRCL that also led to Wild and Scenic status for the river and the formulation of the South Yuba State Park, a major economic asset to our region.
    Russ
    Yes indeed Charles Litton and the whole tech industry that folllowed had a huge effect on the quality of lif on our cummunity. However, the environment and cultural quality of life was a magnet to attract the workforce required to maintain such businesses. The workers were largely imports recruited nationally and internationally.
    Todd
    Lon Cooper was the leader of the movement to preserve the historical downtown of Nevada City. He was hardly a conservative nor were the supporters of that movement whose efforts we enjoy today. Do you believe that preserving Nevada city and Grass Valley were bad ideas? Can you imagine what we would look like without those efforts.
    It was David Woods and Charles Osborne, gay partners that created the American Victorian Museum and the Liberal Arts Commission under Sally Lewis, hardly a conservative that saved the Nevada Theatre. It was Paul Perry who was the main inspiration behind Music In The Mountains and Diane and Ralph Fetterly the same for Foothill Theatre. Hard to find a conservative or Republican in that group. Hippies and Gays? Sure

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  9. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1035am – I do believe you have the cart before the horse in your arguments. All of those fine cultural project were started because there was already a sufficient audience to support the enterprises. And that audience was brought in by the Littons et al, not the other way around.
    To suggest that a fallow and remote community is selected by some artful people who adopt the motto ‘If we build it they (businesses) will come’ is a more than a little far-fetched. Something else brought enough of them here first, and then they put the artsy-fartsy stuff in place. Of course, at that point those cultural amenities began contributing to the draw of the community for other folks considering moving here.
    I went through that decision process in 2001 with my team from soCal. (That effort fell through because of the thin job market up here for the kind of tech talent involved, and not because there was not enough culture up here.)

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  10. Paul Emery Avatar

    I don’t dispute your look at this George. Perhaps we are both right. These ventures started out very small and were not well attended but that came with time. Nevada City went through its cultural renaissance in the early to mid 70’s when the institutions we enjoy today were put in place including KVMR Radio. I was just detailing the type of people that put those things together. I will include the Center for the Arts since I was involved as Executive and Artistic Director for eight years. It was after we put thousands of volunteer and cheap labor hours getting the place going that we were able to attract supporters and members to the venue. I know who those in the trenches were during that time but don’t need to detail my assessment of their cultural and political background. We had to fight tooth and nail the conservative establishment to get our feet on the ground which we eventually did.

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  11. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 348pm – Why on earth did you have “to fight tooth and nail the conservative establishment to get our feet on the ground” since you weren’t going after funds budgeted for other needs, and since you used volunteer labor? And in principle, why did conservatives single themselves out to oppose such salutary cultural projects? Was there some added baggage coming along that made them reticent?

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  12. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Paul, Lon Cooper was here long before you and most of those you listed. I have no idea what his political party was. You make a lot of assumptions with no facts. If you are a news person, please start writing like one. Egads! Nevada City was a ghost town when I was in my teens. Redneck locals saved it. It is now returning to a ghost town, regardless that they now tell you what color to paint your house.

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  13. billy T Avatar

    The community here is a small town feel with rural surroundings. We have the natural resources like the rivers that without them would make this area less attractive.
    Nevada City has done great restoring its town to how they want it. Think it was in the 70’s when I pulled into town and hit Broad Street. I remember all the thrift and nick-knack stores selling old postcards and old pictures of the town for a dime. Told myself then that to restore this town they just would have to paint it. The old iron doors and structures were already there. Nevada City has developed into the city of their choosing.
    Same for Grass Valley, except they have allowed bigger franchises on the outskirts. Good for shopping. Even the industrial parks (the few there are) are out of sight. More blue collar homes and apartments.
    Penn Valley is Penn Valley. Ranch area. Have a good dear friend has always lived there including his parents and grandparents and maybe other great grandparents. I fondly remember when I was at his house during the 2020 era when he got a phone call. It was from person calling from a “Save Penn Valley” organization. He shot back that Penn Valley was just fine until all you new people moved in and started changing things”. Heck, his granddaddy’s barn is still standing out Spenceville Road.
    I moved here to dredge and dredge I did. Nice living. I tried logging, and like dredging it was hard rewarding work. Manly work, if you will, and close to nature.
    I call it the clash of cultures. Town was built by gold and logging and today aggressively promotes the gold rush historical towns. Yet, people hate the miners and loggers as their services are not longer desired. No more welcome mat for them. Talk about a culture dying, aka, Premise 6.
    We all like it here. Climate, good people, nice place to raise kids. I have noticed that the most thoughtful, deliberate, easy going, slow to anger and gentle folks are the long time 3rd generation Nevada County residents who never left for long. Truly the salt of the earth.
    What concerns me most is something I have little control over: State Regulations. From construction to vehicles, from taxes to sewer plants, burn days, school calendars, recycling to housing permits to moving 3 wheelbarrows of dirt, to diet to a myriad of every aspect of our lives with more coming down the pike. That is what makes it harder. Even the following link gives a kudos of sorts to native Californians facing hostile business regs. Hostile business climates create less jobs and less jobs means less money to attend the arts. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/24/residents-leave-california-in-droves-over-last-two-decades-study-finds/

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  14. Paul Emery Avatar

    Todd
    I did a story in the mid 90’s about the successful campaign to establish a historical district. I spoke with Bob Payne who was on the city council at the time and according to him it was a real struggle. Supportfor a historical district was fueled by controversy surrounding the freeway to nowhere at that time between Grass Valley and Nevada City. According to Paine it was a real struggle but because of Lon Coopers perseverance it passed. I also spoke with Charles Woods who was a young man then and a supporter of the plan. He also spoke of the intense opposition to the plan by the old timers who didn’t want any change.
    Forty years ago a citizenry concerned with the freeway’s destruction of integral parts of Nevada City as well as a boarded-up downtown business district, conceived of and established the Historical District Ordinance No.368. It was probably the first such statute in the West. It outlined absolute standards for altering, surfacing and constructing structures within the city. It was not only a guide but also a prohibition against removing pieces of the historic fabric of our city forever. A key provision is preserving Mother Lode architecture, which is defined as “the type of architecture generally used in the Mother Lode region in the State of California during the period from 1849 and 1900.”
    “I am one of the few people remaining who worked on that ordinance. I recall agonizing about appropriate materials and definitions of Gold Rush buildings. We worked to anticipate future problems: new construction illuminated signs, street entrances from parking lots and building demolition. I also recall discussing that subjective decisions relative to preservation might perhaps be the most hazardous aspect of the ordinance. The City Council at the time of the ordinance’s adoption in 1968 consisted of Mayor John Rankin and council members Arch McPherson, Lon Cooper, Bob Paine and Joe Day. We were very fortunate to have Bill Wetherall’s able assistance as our city attorney.
    Since the adoption and highly successful implementation of Ordinance No. 368, Nevada City has extended those protections to historic structures outside the Historical District.”
    http://yubanet.com/regional/Regional_Op-Ed_Charles_Woods_Build_Nevada_City_s_f_57506_printer.php
    Georg
    It was mostly the bible thumpers up the hill who wished to impose their moral indignation over our youth programs and concerts. Also certain since retired GVPD members who enjoyed giving us hell for having rock and roll shows for kids. I don’t recall any conservatives involved in the early struggle to establish the Center. Drew Bedwell refused to debate there as well. Howard Levine and Linda Stephens intervened and helped us get over the hump. The point is the Center, much like the Foundry and Nevada Theatre in Nevada City and Music in the Mountains and Foothill Theatre and KVMR were creations of Liberal members of our community.

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  15. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    PaulE, did I miss something? You say you worked on the ordinance as passed in 1968 but told us you moved here in 1976. Also, the city council members you listed were all those infamous and hated “good ol’ boys”.

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  16. Paul Emery Avatar

    My typo misled you Todd.
    That was a quote from Charles Woods about working on the ordinance . I interviewed him when I did the story in the 90’s. I didn’t attribute it to Charles very well. Sorry for the confusion. It should of read:
    I also spoke with Charles Woods who was a young man then and a supporter of the plan. He also spoke of the intense opposition to the plan by the old timers who didn’t want any change.
    “Forty years ago a citizenry concerned with the freeway’s destruction of integral parts of Nevada City as well as a boarded-up downtown business district, conceived of and established the Historical District Ordinance No.368. It was probably the first such statute in the West. It outlined absolute standards for altering, surfacing and constructing structures within the city. It was not only a guide but also a prohibition against removing pieces of the historic fabric of our city forever. A key provision is preserving Mother Lode architecture, which is defined as “the type of architecture generally used in the Mother Lode region in the State of California during the period from 1849 and 1900.”
    “I am one of the few people remaining who worked on that ordinance. I recall agonizing about appropriate materials and definitions of Gold Rush buildings. We worked to anticipate future problems: new construction illuminated signs, street entrances from parking lots and building demolition. I also recall discussing that subjective decisions relative to preservation might perhaps be the most hazardous aspect of the ordinance. The City Council at the time of the ordinance’s adoption in 1968 consisted of Mayor John Rankin and council members Arch McPherson, Lon Cooper, Bob Paine and Joe Day. We were very fortunate to have Bill Wetherall’s able assistance as our city attorney.
    Since the adoption and highly successful implementation of Ordinance No. 368, Nevada City has extended those protections to historic structures outside the Historical District.”
    http://yubanet.com/regional/Regional_Op-Ed_Charles_Woods_Build_Nevada_City_s_f_57506_printer.php
    I recall talking to several people including Bob Paine at the time of my story about the intense opposition to the preservation plan. I don’t know the final vote that affirmed it.
    Anyone want to chime in on this piece of history?
    By the way Todd, do you support the the Ordinance?

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  17. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    No, it is too onerous and anti property rights.

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  18. Paul Emery Avatar

    My point is made

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  19. Michael Anderson Avatar

    “No, it is too onerous and anti property rights.”
    Whoops, wrong answer. And here we get to the onus of the boil (carbuncle?): the Hysterical District was the driver of the saving of Nevada City from boarded up hell. And yes, the building boom that resulted in Lake Wildwood, Lake of the Pines, Cascade Shores, Deer Creek I (and other smaller developments as well), was also a huge driver. A lot of things all came together to make it happen. And it is still a work in progress.
    Then as now (now more than ever), the global economy and domestic demographics had a lot to do with our national success, as well as what drove the local success in Nevada County between 1962 and 1988.
    I think this is a great discussion, and I would hope that everyone is willing to agree to disagree, as well as find whatever percentage of things there is that we can indeed agree upon.
    One thing I would like to offer regarding the George v. Paul “hippies vs. GVG” meme is that I was in both worlds from 1988 till 1997. I was part of the local theatre scene from 1988 till 1996, founding the City Theatre Company on Commercial Street along with Karen Leigh in 1989 and eventually ending up on the board of the Foothill Theatre Company from 1992 till 1996. I was also a Systems Administrator for the Grass Valley Group during that same time frame, and came to appreciate the amazing gift that we have in our community with some of the top digital signal processing and communications protocol scientists in the world living here and raising their families. Actually, we’re moving on to the second generation (at least) of that group.
    We also have 2 generations of hardware and software engineers living here, from the same GVG jobs engine, probably living in quality homes that Todd and his brethren thankfully built.
    I have more to add to the arts side of the discussion, but I’ll let this comment stand as my beginning foray.

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  20. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    What point are you taking credit for PaulE? Your ilk has made Nevada City a “rich” persons town and I thought you all were for the little foks. I never took part in any ordinances one way r the other since I was never a “city resident” so my opinion really means squat anyway. You can be proud that you helped drive the costs of living in the town and the renting of commercial space into the stratosphere. Good job, you have made the little town part of your evil 1%.

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  21. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Ok, I am going to bite.
    The real problem with George’s premises is that actually creating such cultural communities of ‘choice’ is governed by law; law that has responded to the Constitutional challenges that arise when people seek to enforce the creation of such communities. It is really quite simple…when people band together by choice to live near each other….that is legal choice…when people exclude others it is un-Constitutional. So to the extent that you propose people band together to engage in celebrating their cultural heritage…like La Raza…great.
    The US has a wide body of anti-discrimination law including the 14th amendment to the US Constitution, the Civil Rights Acts of 1871, 1964, 1968, 1991, the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, the Equal Pay Act, the Lilly Ledbetter Act, the Fair Employment Act, the California Fair Employment and Housing Act, and many other legislative and Executive orders.
    So the operative term in the entire post is “and in which it can practice discrimination so as to minimize the diluting influences of competing cultures.” The long and short of it is that you do not get to practice discrimination–in the legal sense–to meet those objectives.
    I think we can all agree that we like Premise 1: we plan our communities every day–that is what George did when he wrote a General Plan in Simi Valley right? That’s what we do every day when we pass local zoning or design review ordinances, such as Ordinance 368.
    I think there is similar agreement over parts of Premise 2: we like local control–but when local control discriminates, it is un-Constitutional.
    It is on Premises 3 & 4: that we part company…to the extent that it is possible for people to “group themselves according to any criteria and/or attributes they consider proper” without such groupings “form[ing] for the explicit purpose of eliminating or harming another grouping” more power to ya’…..look at Del Webb communities. But I would ask, “How do you achieve the first portion of Premise 4 without violating the second portion of Premise 4?
    So here is what you can do–you can move to Nevada County from Simi Valley because you like the location.
    But once you are in Nevada County, you can not deny people jobs, housing, access to services, equal pay, equal access to banking and loans, equal access to the ballot box, the right to organize as labor units, freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom to practice their religion, equal access to education, equal access to medical care, equal access to public places, on the basis of race or color, religion, national origin or ancestry, physical or mental disability or medical condition, marital status, sex or sexual orientation or age.
    We live in a nation of laws, and you are free to live next to your buddy who looks and acts like you; but your buddy can’t refuse to sell his house to a gay, Muslim, pregnant, woman, with aids. Nor can the bank refuse her a loan, nor the school a spot, nor the company a job, if she meets all of the other qualifications.
    The beauty of the American system is that for more than 230 years now we have afforded people the ability to expand and celebrate their individual liberty, and stayed true to out founding principles, that all people are equal, and no government has the right to deny them equal rights, and that a government that allows its people to deny equal rights can transform itself and expand those rights within a logical framework of laws.
    The real problem with Georges grand premise is that it is a utopian (for him) fantasy. It presupposes that we can separate ourselves from our broader culture, nation and globe. We live in the world…..It is simply not possible. It is an exercise in magical thinking.

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  22. Michael Anderson Avatar

    Todd, your rock beckons…the sun is up, time to return to the darkness underneath.

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  23. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Premise 7 is kind of odd.
    “Utility (what is ‘good’) is a subjective measure usually consisting of multiple attributes. Neither a single utility, nor any of its specific attributes, are necessarily shared by more than one culture. Therefore, all cultures are not of equal worth to anyone.”
    It starts by stating a basic tenant of secular humanism, that “good’ is relative (or subjective); then it devolves to the premise that not ‘all cultures are of equal worth to anyone.”
    Under our system not all cultures need be of equal worth to anyone, they merely need to be of equal worth to someone. I have as much at stake in protecting or recognizing the culture of the smallest group as the largest, because as the rights of the smallest goes, so eventually go the rights of the largest.
    The entire premise seems to run counter to the basic premise of American governance, that rights are enjoyed by individuals.

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  24. billy T Avatar

    Nevada City is nice, but who can afford to live there? Funny that Mr. Frisch mentioned Semi Valley. Had a friend down in Semi. One day I loaded up my van and trashed out all I had in the storage sheds, gave away the furniture and industry tools, cancelled my answering service, moved into my van and hit the road. My friend looked at me ruefully stating he would love to get out of here but how would he make a living? He had a wife, house, and growing business. I, on the other hand, decided to let go of the tiger I had by the tail and figured it would be better to be broke and near nature than to have money and hate where I was living. I ended up living in my van down by the river (Bear River outside of Colfax) for 2 years. Never looked back. Never regretted it for one second. Ironically, the last call I got was from a woman who offered (begged) me a great long term job in an industry where you can retire after 15 or so years. There it was. The red carpet career, the white picket fence, the American dream. Money, power and prestige. I never returned her call.
    So we all are here in this tiny speck on the globe. Seen many come and go. I am still standing and many of my new acquaintances I met upon arriving upon Nevada County’s shores, albeit younger, have died or disappeared.
    When the newborn twins came along and their mother decided to chase booze and drugs, I had to raise two girls in a car. Couldn’t dredge anymore and the car broke down. Had to move closer to town for the girls and lived in a broken down car parked outside an apartment building. Still, never regretted one second. Finally got hired by a convenience store at night telling drunks they could not buy booze after 2 am, much to their rather loud vocal displeasure. Stood there and took it, thinking I used to hire guys for $900-$1100/week in the 80’s and I am eating ca-ca for $5.25/hour. Never regretted moving here, never for a second.
    Let the towns do what they do. I like the surrounding areas a lot, but that is just me. A million dollar house on a road next to a trailer. Unplanned sprawl has its charm. Love a ranch house next to a backyard junkyard. Something for everybody.
    The welfare mama here is typically white, educated, and divorced. She and her spouse moved up here to chase their dreams. He can’t find work, their saving depleted, and they eventually move into the parent’s house. The financial strains become crushing and the divorce ensues. He goes back to the city, she takes her kids up to the welfare office as her Mom and Dad tell her it is time to move out…again.
    What kind of community do we want? What kind of community do we have? Its great here. Not easy for young families to stay here though. Life is tough as it should me. But the rewards are great. From a newbie, lol.

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  25. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    MichaelA, a typical liberal sycophant. If one disagrees they go personal. My my my, such an unintelligent person you are MichaelA. Oh, and I was a part of Community players before you even came to my county.

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  26. TomKenworth Avatar

    Guess what Todd, based on this list, you are on the FBI list for using some of the words listed in this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2150281/REVEALED-Hundreds-words-avoid-using-online-dont-want-government-spying-you.html
    BTW, since when do you “own” a county? I’m a native Northern Californian, and claim everything northwards from San Simeon. You too tight beamed to get that? Besides I first hit Nevada County before you were born, early Tahoe visit, right up the Lincoln Highway.

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  27. Steven Frisch Avatar

    By the way George, to the extent that you wish to discriminate in your personal choices, or as a community, and they do not violate any of the above listed (and other unlisted) anti-discrimination laws, it is fair game. People do it all the time.
    When I was a kid I grew up in a heavily Czech-Bohemian (the real Bohemians, not the beret wearing poets) neighborhood in Berwyn/Cicero Illinois. We went to the Sokol Slavsky, a Czech youth organization and gymnasium that focused on sports and youth development. It was one of the great things about living in an ethnic enclave. As a kid I was acutely aware of the fact that a few short blocks away there were many kids who would not have dreamed (or wanted) to join Sokol Slavsky. It was all white…largely because Berwyn/Cicero was all white; a vestige of housing discrimination, lending discrimination, employment discrimination and outright violence against newcomers. The same father who allowed us to attend Sokol Slavsky would not allow us to attend a segregated swimming pool when we moved to Missouri a few short years later.
    These rights were hard fought…and necessary. We are all richer and freer because they were extended.
    I relay this story merely to illustrate just how fine and temporal this line can be.

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  28. Michael Anderson Avatar

    Thank you Todd, for leading the way in having good manners on the blogs. As someone who never goes personal and always sticks to the subject, I truly thank you for your excellent example.

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  29. George Rebane Avatar

    Thank you SteveF, your thoughtful 737am, 821am, and 915am challenge the presmises, and address the subject of the post. They deserve a reply which I’ll do as an update to the post. I invite other readers to join in a similar vein, addressing my questions or posing new ones of their own.

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  30. Michael Anderson Avatar

    I tried George. Then Todd claimed this was “his county,” and all hope was lost.

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  31. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 1024am – Courage me lad, press on!

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  32. Steven Frisch Avatar

    One final point….the gradual demise of Sokol Slavsky in Cicero, Illinois
    http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vyvDxzynL.jpg
    http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7021/6820671907_a75b1ac488.jpg
    was a result of third generation Czech children not seeing themselves as Czech….they were now fully Americans…if one has not seen the movie Avalon (different ethnicity, same story) I highly recommend it….and the result of flight, Sokol Slavsky now has a facility in Brookfield, Illinois, about 5 miles west of Cicero.
    http://www.sokolspirit.org/aboutus.html
    Czech’s in Chicago started in the inner city working class neighborhoods around the mills, stockyards and slaughterhouses of the stockyards neighborhood on the south side and in the “Prague” and “Pilsen” neighborhoods of the near west side. As they become Americanized the late first generation and second generation moved to Cicero, a lower middle class suburb that afforded them access to the jobs of the city, but a certain separation. They were served by organizations like Sokol Slavsky and fraternal banks like the Korsny Bank (which failed in the Depression but whose family was revered in Cicero for making capital available to an entire generation of Czech families) if I remember correctly.
    I think a really interesting question we should be asking is “does association with such organizations speed assimilation, or retard assimilation?” My personal experience (through the eyes of a child) were that access to capital meant starting businesses, starting businesses meant speeding assimilation through commerce across cultural boundaries, and the next generation was slicking back their hair, using American slang, and changing their names from Augustin’ to Jack.
    I think a comparison of the speed of assimilation of immigrants today and immigrants in the 19th and early 20th centuries would show that fraternal organization actually speeds assimilation and builds stronger citizens.

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  33. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    MichaelA, you are a usurper and ungrateful. I have done a post commemorating your ilk on my blog. What a hoot!

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  34. billy T Avatar

    No one is talking about housing discrimination or racial discrimination, or discrimination on the basis of creed, color, religion, or ethnicity. That is a given. Its not like the good old days when China Town here was burnt to the ground of the Chinese working one the railroad were herded into a tunnel on pay day and each received their wages in lead bullets. Those days are long gone.
    Birds of a feather flock together. Ever been to a Green Peace function? How about Ananda right in our own back yard. Exclusive. Some might call that discriminatory, but Ananda is a good example. Sure, some newcomer might sneak off the res and buy himself a can of tuna in a moment of weakness, but basically they all are on the same page.
    Nevada County reminds me of Northern Ireland. When there are no Jews, Chicanos or Blacks to kick around, the white man will improvise.

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  35. Michael Anderson Avatar

    Todd, I have no idea how to respond to your comment. So I will just move on.
    George wrote: “Courage me lad, press on!”
    Yes, and your addendum afterward is interesting. I will try to comment tomorrow on this subject.

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  36. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Great Billy……you made my point….there is no legal mechanism to discriminate thus the entire thing is an exercise in magical thinking.
    “I see great benefit in a society that is allowed to practice beneficial discrimination in the widest possible sense.”–George.
    I guess I have to ask, George, what legal discrimination do you wish to engage in? What exactly do you mean by living with people who think like you, within the constraints of US anti-discrimnation law?

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  37. Steven Frisch Avatar

    “1. According to my lights, people assemble into communities to enable and maintain their Bastiat Triangle of rights – security, property, liberty – which is fundamental to the apologetics put forward in these pages. Culture subsequently arises in such communities for utilitarian reasons – behaviors and traditions that give pleasure and maintain a mutually accepted social contract.”
    On this point I think we have clear agreement. Whether those rights are defined by Bastiat, or defined by another system of Law, security, liberty and property, are intrinsically linked. The definition of “private property” has been somewhat more fungible than the definitions of security and liberty, with different social constructs (cultures) and bodies of law defining the level of private versus community property differently; but I will heartily grant that liberty, security and property are, as Basiat stated, linked and each is dependent upon the other.

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  38. Steven Frisch Avatar

    “2. A cohesive society naturally stratifies in its organization – higher levels tend to prescribe generalized principles, lower levels get into more detail about acceptable and proscribed behaviors. And in descending into lower levels we see diversification, not every cohort at a given level of organization behaves and solves its problems the same way.”
    I am going to grant you this one as well. Not only does the American constitutional system support the concept of stratified government with power devolving to the local level, logic dictates it, for the very reason you state; diversification breeds innovation with the least risk and greatest reward. Solving problems in the crucible of the local community means that we can experiment, try, fail, and succeed with the most liberty and the least risk to the overarching governance structure.

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  39. Steven Frisch Avatar

    “3. Nature shows us that ideas/methods/memes/… arising from a rich and diverse broth of how different groups of people live their lives contributes to the overall benefit, quality of life, and survival of the society. Nature goes on to tell us that homogeneity (i.e. systems of high entropy) is the prime characteristic of a path to dissolution and destruction. In short, large societies of one mind and uniformity don’t do well when confronted with either new dangers or new opportunities.”
    Although you may be an unlikely professor of biomimicry, I think you are substantially correct here as well. This could be seen as a re-stament of the second point, but I see them as appropriately two different points. Point 2 dealt specifically with organization (which I have construed to include ‘governance’ through all of the institutions of a society). Point 3 deals with the raw material of that society; and makes the point that homogeneity breeds destruction. On this, I also could not agree more. It is this very point that leads me to embrace new cultural influences rather than reject or isolate myself from them; and I clearly believe that a society that does likewise is more likely to endure and prosper.

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  40. Steven Frisch Avatar

    “4. Private property – its accumulation, use, and sustenance – is the prime motivator of human efforts that are at the margin of satisfying elemental survival needs. That is, after you know that you’re going to live in the short term, you start gathering and building stuff that will allow you to do so in the longer term.”
    Once again, fundamentally true, which is why it is one of the sides of the Bastiat Triangle. Yet I think that this is where we begin to part company. Although the accumulation of private property on a subsistence level falls into your system nicely, the continued accumulation of private property, and underlying motivations for that accumulation, begin to become ore complicated. And this is where biomimicry ends and human psychology begins.
    Once basic needs of food, clothing shelter, and I would add sex, are satisfied, the motivation for gathering stuff for the long term begins to branch out into family, health, management of resources to ensure future supply, and eventually art, poetry and astronomy. Humans are more than mere biological units, they are conscious and self aware biological units. Many people prefer to define that through the existence of the soul, I do not; but the existence of more in the minds of men is clear and compelling. Accumulation ceases to be the prime motivator for most people; most people are much more interested in what that accumulation will enable them to do, and the world is rife with examples of people who have traded security and even accumulation for the third, fourth or fifth levels of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Who has not given up a fortune for love? Who has not traded being in a place they love for gold? Who has not made the choice of moral code at the occasional expense of the accumulation of wealth? I believe that is common (even within the confining construct of ‘conservative’ or ‘liberal’).
    And it leads to another even more important concept; which is that although liberty, security and property are prime motivators, we value them so much that we have constructed societies, and thus governance, to protect them And in that construct “Freedom” as a goal becomes tempered with responsibility. At times that is responisbility to your peers, the requirement in our moral code to be “our brothers keeper” , and in the larger contract, to occasionally trade pure Freedom for pragmatic Freedom, the ability to retsruct ones action in the accumulation, in order to maintain and support a larger society that protects more Freedom.
    I am reminded of the famous quote by Vikto Frankl:
    “Freedom, however, is not the last word. Freedom is only part of the story and half of the truth. Freedom is but the negative aspect of the whole phenomenon whose positive aspect is responsibleness. In fact, freedom is in danger of degenerating into mere arbitrariness unless it is lived in terms of responsibleness. That is why I recommend that the Statue of Liberty on the East Coast be supplemented by a Statue of Responsibility on the West Coast.”

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  41. George Rebane Avatar

    StevenF 640am et al – Steve, laws for various jurisdictions, including up to constitutional amendments, can be changed as we see the wisdom in doing so. Nowhere have I argued that a community according to the discussed premises can today be implemented in full. Yes indeed, this is an exercise in “magical thinking”, for that also is a progenitor of creativity. And I believe that as a nation we are at the point where a lot of magical thinking is required to avoid the Great Divide. The status quo is not working for about half the country.
    You conclude your 758am with the implication that communities more purposely coherent in their cultures and/or ideologies would be isolated. I don’t see that at all; there would be no dictum across the land to prevent a rich intercourse in commerce and ideas between the various communities as goes on today. The only new idea needed is that communities have the legal right to maintain their belief systems, and not have them abrogated by democratic colonization.
    And that requires my property to be mine, to dispose of as I wish. If I don’t want to sell my house/business to someone, say, a liberal or an Estonian, then I don’t have to. And if this be a poor decision, then the natural order of economics will punish me. But in any event, I get to come an visit you in your community, see how you guys handle things, and take back the ideas that I think would benefit my neighbors. I will then have to make the case and see how they take to such ideas.
    For example, I don’t have to live among Irish Catholics 24/7 and have to share my calendar with them for holidays and celebrations in order to enjoy Irish Catholic culture. When I feel the need for it, I will go an visit them and abide with them until I get my fill. Or if I and my neighbors want to invite an Irish Catholic dance troupe to our theater, then we will be free to do so and then bid them adieu.
    And if I come to feel stifled in my community, I’ll move to yours with the understanding that I will have to follow your rules, and not seek/agitate to supplant them with my imports. Is there anything fundamentally wrong with this rough outline of a social order for lower level jurisdictions?

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  42. Steven Frisch Avatar

    “communities have the legal right to maintain their belief systems and not have them abrogated by democratic colonization.”
    I am sorry George….but this statement is the crux of the matter…are you seriously proposing (or merely philosophically positing) that communities should be able to choose a belief system and exclude others who do not hew to that system?
    What would keep you from refusing to sell you home to an African-American (a much more real and historically accurate depiction of this philosophy applied to the real ground in America)? How is this not a violation of our founding principles?
    By the way, this is the key point, that more than 4 years ago, led me to label this idea here on your blog as fundamentally un-American.

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  43. George Rebane Avatar

    StevenF 827am – My concern in these deliberations is not to be exclusionary on the basis of someone’s DNA, but on the basis of their behavior – their culture. I don’t have any reasons to exclude people of any race who value my and my neighbors’ culture, and come and live cheek-by-jowl with us, and have our kids inter-marry. But I (and most others in the world) find many other cultures more than irritating to abide, some are reprehensible. It is these I want to reject and hold at a distance, so as to allow mine (and theirs) to survive and evolve.

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  44. Steven Frisch Avatar

    But what proxies would you use, or what system would you use, to determine ones culture?
    The key point is still the same–no realistic proxy exist– thats what makes human being so damn amazing-and it certainly does not exists within the construct of our Constitutional principles or boundaries. Thus this is just magical thinking. A fine philosophical exercise–in line with the theoretical musings of Bastiat, Hume, Berkeley, and Smith–and fun, but in the end we live in a world with multiple cultures and one cannot remove themselves from that without violating other core principles, like the primacy of liberty, security and property.
    Don’t you see–to exclude those you find irritating, one needs to deny their liberty. Who wants to do that?

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  45. George Rebane Avatar

    StevenF 901am – We may be making progress. It seems that we have distinct views of what is liberty. Mine is that I want to be free to do my thing, and that includes my denial of myself to you or your purposes. Yours seems to be that your freedom depends on your being able to dictate my behavior. These are extremely different notions. (In ‘The Liberal Mind’ category I have covered other topics wherein fundamental logics between us are different.)
    BTW, I understand your use of ‘proxy’ to mean a stand-in for a robust discriminant that can be used to ascribe ‘this is not that’.

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  46. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    Expand please on why conservatives in general sense their freedom seems to be dependent on their ability to being able to dictate to others behavior in such cases as a woman’s right to choose and an individuals right to partake of herbal substances if they choose to do so for any reason including recreational. Also the right for gays to marry if they choose to do so. This critique doesn’t include you since you seem to be the general exception to the rule.

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  47. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1210pm – I don’t think that you characterize (understand?) the correct stance of conservatives. You keep using these liberal dog whistle(?) phrases like “right to choose”. No conservatives I know would deny a woman to obtain an abortion. They just don’t want government to be in the business of paying for either contraception or abortion. But more often than not, to liberals it is a denial of rights to something if someone opposes that government must pay for it (i.e. redistribution).
    The problems with “herbal substances” seems to be one that both Democrats and Repubs enjoy prohibiting the legal enjoyment of on the basis of its inducement of bad behaviors. It’s not only a conservative thing. I’m not the only conservative who would legalize drugs under the conditions we have covered here.
    The best I can tell, gay ‘marriage’ is opposed by many conservatives on two grounds – 1) keeping the label man/woman marriage sacrosanct, and 2) Judeo/Christian/Muslim scriptural grounds as an abomination. Of the former, those people (Repubs and Dems both) don’t seem to have any problem with giving gays the same functional benefits of a standard marriage, they just want to call the relationship something else so that it is not confused with heterosexual marriage.
    I side with that, because progressives have a history of subsequently making the revelation of the type of marriage illegal once ‘marriage’ is the common term for both kinds of unions. When I establish a relationship with an individual, I do want to know both their gender and their sexual orientation ASAP.

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  48. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Re: George Rebane | 26 September 2012 at 08:43 AM
    George, In my response I was referring to this comment: “My concern in these deliberations is not to be exclusionary on the basis of someone’s DNA, but on the basis of their behavior – their culture.”
    I fear I misused the word “proxy”. What I mean to ask is how does one identify those who one wishes to exclude based on culture? How exactly does that work? How does one do it? Do they put a sign up at the entrance to the the community that says, “Only those who adhere to this set of principles are welcome as part of our community”? Or does one choose not to sell houses, or hire people who do not adhere to that set of principles? And how can one tell?

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  49. Steven Frisch Avatar

    George Rebane | 26 September 2012 at 09:14 AM
    “It seems that we have distinct views of what is liberty. Mine is that I want to be free to do my thing, and that includes my denial of myself to you or your purposes. Yours seems to be that your freedom depends on your being able to dictate my behavior.”
    I think you are misrepresenting my definition of liberty. I believe liberty is the condition of being free from outside control; the right to believe, act or express oneself in a manner of ones own choosing. It also includes a right to engage in certain activities without restriction or control.
    One of those activities is the right to work or live wherever I want; the right to engage in the representative democracy I live in, and the right to be treated equally with others.
    I do not want to control or dictate your behavior; but if you deny someone a job or a home based on a cultural litmus test, you are denying them their liberty…and that is a violation of my liberty.
    Is that clearer. Once again, it my be nice (for you) to think that only one type of person can live in a community, but there is no mechanism for enforcing that. Nor should there ever be.

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  50. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 523pm – Had no desire to put words in your mouth (hence my use of ‘seems’), thanks for the clarification of liberty.
    Re the right to work or live wherever I want. I don’t think we have that right currently. It depends on the scope of ‘wherever’, because one clearly does not have the right to work for any given private enterprise or public bureau. And as much as I may want to live in some high end neighborhood, I have no intrinsic right to do so.
    But we both are more interested in the reasons why someone can refuse you a job or to sell/rent you a house. If it is my company or my house, then my definition of liberty is that I don’t even want to be forced to tell you the reason I refused you. I didn’t want to deal with you, and that’s that.
    As soon as government puts a gun to my head and says I have to hire or sell, then my liberty is curtailed. You have no right to my property in any shape or form, and I have no rights to yours. In other words our individual liberties do not involve or depend upon our being enabled to dispose of the other’s property contrary to its owner’s will.
    I think there is where we most likely have a wide divergence of what liberty means in a free society. And I further maintain that if my Bastiat Triangle is weakened, then we start on the slippery slope to autocracy through the siren song and well trod path of broad-based democracy.

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