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August 2012
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“In fact, [climate change] has now driven our climate outside the range that has existed the last 10,000 yearsโ€ฆ” โ€” Dr. James Hansen (from NPR)

George Rebane

TwoViewsThereโ€™s a coordinated blitz to recover ground lost to climate change skeptics in the past couple of years.  The lost ground is uneven โ€“ in fact, in California thereโ€™s actually been a gain as the rogue CARB continues creating chaos โ€“ but thereโ€™s been enough doubt expressed by politicians across the country so that another application of bogus science is called for to shore up the politically correct belief systems that have recently shown some fraying at the edges.

And who but that intrepid NASA scientist Hockeystick Hansen himself has leaped into the very breach of the breech with a Washington Post op-ed piece, and a report purported to be published by the National Academy of Sciences (I couldnโ€™t find it, and their search engine has no knowledge of a James Hansen.  Hmmm.).  But thereโ€™s enough in the political coverage (here and here) of olโ€™ Hockeystickโ€™s re-emergence to piece together the elements of his current assault on the nationโ€™s credibility.

RR readers have been exposed to his shenanigans in past years when he first introduced his notorious global temperature โ€˜hockeystickโ€™ (here and here).  And, in addition to scores of scientists, tireless bloggers like Anthony Watts, Steve McIntyre, and our own Russ Steele have spent years laying bare the errors and lack of science that the AGW (anthropogenic global warming) crowd assembled by the UN has been inflicting on the worldโ€™s public policies.

Well, now Dr Hansen claims that all these extreme hot weather events weโ€™ve had in the last few years are proof positive that they are caused by AGW.  BTW, the cold weather events during the same interval are just that, โ€˜weatherโ€™ and not climate change.  You gotta have a PhD to tell the difference.

And this time heโ€™s not bringing up another collection of dodgy computer models like those that created the hockeystick.  No, now heโ€™s appealing to established statistics and recorded historical weather data โ€“ you know, bell curves and all that.  Well actually itโ€™s hard to tell what kind of statistics heโ€™s using because the media are guaranteed to muck up what he really did.  All we know from the reports is that he compared data from the base period of 1951-1980 with data from 1981-2010 โ€“ two thirty-year periods from a (climate) process that changes in the order of centuries.  Best to watch the NPR video to get the gist of his arguments.

Assuming he carefully tallied up weather events of various intensities for the base period, he could then make a histogram that plots weather intensity (x-axis) against the number of such incidents for each level of weather intensity (y-axis).  He then fits a bell curve (Gaussian distribution) to this histogram.  Then he does the same thing for the 1981-2010 interval data, and lays the two bell curves over each other.  And by Jove, it appears that the most recent bell curve is visibly shifted to the right of the base period bell curve.

The extreme weather events are those represented by the right tails of the two bell curves (see Hansenโ€™s figures in the video), and the most recent 30 years shows a higher number for any intensity level of weather events.  So there you have it, slam dunk, end of story, AGW is here, letโ€™s get that cap nโ€™tax legislation going again.


But not so fast.  There are a couple of huge assumptions that went into this little statistical hokus-pokus.  First, his sample intervals are too small to support the assertion that his thirty year tallies correctly captured the real distributions of the random weather processes which any given operating climate regime will contain.  In fact, skeptics point out that looking at data windows the size of a century or so reveals that 1951-1980 was an extraordinarily mild period in the worldโ€™s weather when compared with what came before.  Such alternating periods of intense and mild years are quite normal in a stable climate process that are longer than Hansenโ€™s thirty year looks.

Second, he hasnโ€™t told us what the normal variability is in such bell curves as we slide a 30-year window from, say, 1850 to 2000.  We know that year by year such bell curves will shift left and right, and get wider and narrower.  (Here weโ€™re looking at the auto-correlation of the intense weather process that heโ€™s reporting on, but thatโ€™s getting too techie for the scope of this post.)  Finally, we know that he has included wildfires as โ€˜weather eventsโ€™ without acknowledging the ongoing and insane forest fuels build-up policy of the US Forest Service, and the increased use of wildlands by the public.  These factors have increased significantly between the two 30-year study periods.

In sum, we havenโ€™t even gotten to the more seminal factors that argue for 1) man-made climate effects, and 2) whether we actually know how to purposely, and without doing greater harm, alter climate in a desirable direction.  For example, we know that historically higher temperatures donโ€™t go in lockstep with atmospheric carbon levels as claimed in the public policy (read political) arena.  The main political thrust of UN’s fraud-weighted International Panel on Climate Change  continues to be the implementation of the UNโ€™s frequently denied Agenda21 through frontal attacks like Californiaโ€™s AB32.  These are now being rammed down our throats by CARB, and the more nefarious โ€˜sustainabilityโ€™ and โ€˜smart growthโ€™ projects fostered by the various worldwide ICLEI (‘International Council for Local Environmental Initiatives’) chapters of which over 500 are in the US, with California claiming 100 of them.

Exit question:  Is Nevada County getting ready to set up its own ICLEI chapter, now formally renamed as โ€˜ICLEI โ€“ Local Governments for Sustainabilityโ€™?  (Gotta hide that โ€œInternational Councilโ€ stuff else the natives start getting restless.)

[7aug12 update]  For completeness, here is Anthony Watts’ response to the latest from Hansen.  And Fred Krupp, president of the Environmental Defense Fund, argues (celebrates?) in the 7aug12 WSJ that there is ‘A New Climate-Change Consensus’ between skeptics (mostly conservatives) and true believers (mostly liberals).  To the mix we now add the recent work by Richard Muller, former skeptic and UC Berkeley physicist also cited by Krupp, who has reanalyzed the historical temperature data and fit some new regression models to it that show a recent increase of temperature.  He does no climate physics to identify contributing factors, let alone their magnitudes, to his temperature derivations, and simply concludes that the rise is overwhelmingly anthropogenic in origin since what else could it be.

[Technical Appendix]  A more informative and defendable approach to investigating the imputed increase in bad weather incidents is to look at them in terms of arrivals, and then compute the probability of a given number arriving in, say, a recent time interval.  I hope the non-technical readers havenโ€™t rolled their eyeballs yet, because understanding this approach is very accessible.

Letโ€™s start with a slight detour by baking a raisin cake.  Suppose we intend to bake a raisin cake in a standard 8x8x2 inch cake pan.  The volume of this cake will be 128 cubic inches.  The recipe calls for a cup of raisins, which here weโ€™ll count out as 300 raisins.  We pour the raisins into the gooey batter, mix everything thoroughly, and stick the cake in the oven.  Out comes a beautiful raisin cake that has an average density of 300/128 = 2.34 raisins per cubic inch.

Now the raisins are distributed randomly as a result of our pouring the raisins into the gooey batter in the mixing bowl and turning on the mixer.  If we cut off a 4ร—2 inch piece measuring 16 cubic inches, weโ€™d expect to find about 16ร—2.34 = 37.5, or about 38 raisins in that piece.  I said โ€˜aboutโ€™ since the actual number of raisins will vary, because that number is really whatโ€™s called a random variable โ€“ there may be more or fewer raisins in another 16 cubic inch piece we cut from the cake.

An important and interesting question to ask at this point is, โ€˜What is the probability that weโ€™ll find x raisins in a given volume V of the cake in which the expected number of raisins is ฮป (Greek letter lambda)?โ€™  Here our example volume was V = 16 cu in, and ฮป = 37.5.  Skipping a bunch of mathematical details, the answer to the question comes from a formula called the Poisson distribution, which expresses (please, nobody panics!) P(x), the probability of finding x raisins as

PoissonPDF
The x! term is the factorial which is illustrated by the example 3! = 3*2*1 = 6.  Also, it turns out that 0! = 1 by definition.  The natural base (a property of our universe) e = 2.718โ€ฆ .  So if we wish to know what is the probability that our 16 cu in piece has only x = 20 raisins in it, we would just plug into the formula and compute (easy to do on a spreadsheet that has Poisson function built in).

PoissonExample
So the chances of finding exactly 20 raisins in that volume of cake is mighty slim, as you would expect.  A more useful question might be โ€˜whatโ€™s the probability of finding at least 20 raisins in our piece of cake?โ€™  This is computed as the complement of the probability of not finding zero, one, two, โ€ฆ, or nineteen raisins in the piece.  Or P(x โ‰ฅ 20) = 1 โ€“ [P(0) + P(1) + P(2) + โ€ฆ + P(19)].  If you go through the calculations, youโ€™ll find that P(x โ‰ฅ 20) = 0.999, almost a certainty that you’ll find 20 or more raisins in a 16 cu in piece of cake.

In a similar manner, we can use the formula to find answers to such questions about the raisins in various sizes of pieces in various quantities, or within various limits like, say, โ€˜whatโ€™s the probability that the number of raisins found in a 25 cubic inch piece is between 50 and 75?โ€™ โ€“ now using a ฮป = 25*2.34 = 58.50, the expected number of raisins in 25 cu in, the answer is 0.84 or about 5 out 6 chance.  Thatโ€™s all good and well, but whatโ€™s it have to do with severe weather incidents and climate change?

To answer that letโ€™s trade in raisin cake volumes for time intervals, and the number of raisins for the number of specifically defined severe weather events.  If we take a sufficiently long (think credible) time interval such as, say, from 1850 to 1950, and count the number of, say, known hurricanes observed in the Atlantic during that time, weโ€™ll get an average hurricane incidence or arrival rate of so many hurricanes a year.

If we now assume that the same weather process that operated over the 1850-1950 โ€˜control intervalโ€™ is still in operation today โ€“ in other words climate has not changed significantly since 1950 โ€“ then we can use the Poisson distribution formula to compute the probabilities that we would have seen the actual recorded number of hurricanes (or any other ensembles of weather events) during the recent years.  This will give us a definite level of confidence on what has or has not happened to climate.

We can also compare such recent probabilities to those that occurred for similar spans of years in the control interval.  I would venture that such probabilities are not sufficiently different to cause any reasonable person to become worried that some fundamental climate process has changed markedly to give the results computed for the last thirty year interval.  And thatโ€™s the proper way to do the analysis, and avoid the synthesized pyrotechnics generated by Dr James Hansen.

I invite people โ€“ Anthony Watts?, Steve McIntyre? โ€“ who have the data, and have studied the parameters of severe weather events, to perform this analysis and write a report that would be much more revealing than the one described by Dr Hansen.

Posted in , , , ,

155 responses to “Hockeystick Hansen Strikes Again (updated 7aug12)”

  1. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Darn, and I thought the press had finally given up supporting the cheating “scientist” but I guess not. The other liar Borenstein I think he name is, the AP Eco writer, is just as bab.

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  2. billy T Avatar

    Mr. Juvinall, we have a worthy adversary in the debate and interpretation of Global Warming data. Did you think for one minute the other side would go softly into the still cool night? Nay. Obama and friends have simply starting funneling their agenda through the UN. Was it not just about 3 weeks ago that our Secretary of State delivered a 3 billion down payment to the UN on the 30 billion we have promised to fight global warming in the 3rd world countries? The evil non Muslin West must kick in 100 billion, so I guess our little 30 billion is a bargain. China told them to go blow smoke, in a diplomatic way of course. They never give up, so I admire their tenacity. Obama says his economic plan is working, so lets move on to Romney’s tax returns. Rust never sleeps and there are strawmen to be slain. So many evil strawmen out there the sky is the limit, pun intended. Hope I did not sound ignorant by using Al Gore’s term “Global Warming”. Think that is so 2004 and not longer PC. I better tell my friends in Montana. They sent me a picture of a mountain pass that has just opened. Poor folks are all bundled up. Must be 20 feet of snow on the sides of the road. The caption read: “Montanans for Global Morning”. Not PC I tell ya. Them strawmen Montanans are ignorant skinheads and totally not Nevada City friendly. They even sell organic firewood.

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  3. Paul Emery Avatar

    Todd Is this kinda like all the security experts work wide believing Iraq had WMD’s so we went to war and invaded a sovereign country based on faulty data. Is this what you mean?

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  4. Paul Emery Avatar

    Even studies funded by the Koch Brothers find that global warming is real
    http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-kochfunded-climate-change-skeptic-reverses-course-20120729,0,7372823.story
    ” According to Richard A. Muller, professor of physics at UC Berkeley, MacArthur Fellow and co-founder of the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature project. Never mind that the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and hundreds of other climatologists around the world came to such conclusions years ago. The difference now is the source: Muller is a long-standing, colorful critic of prevailing climate science, and the Berkeley project was heavily funded by the Charles Koch Charitable Foundation, which, along with its libertarian petrochemical billionaire founder Charles G. Koch, has a considerable history of backing groups that deny climate change.
    Tonya Mullins, a spokeswoman for the Koch Foundation, said the support her foundation provided, along with others, had no bearing on the results of the research. “Our grants are designed to promote independent research; as such, recipients hold full control over their findings,” Mullins said in an email. “In this support, we strive to benefit society by promoting discovery and informing public policy.”]

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  5. Paul Emery Avatar

    sp 6:45 “security experts worldwide”

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  6. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, yes, it’s gotten warmer since the end of the Little Ice Age, including a net warming during the 20th century. However, as Muller’s past collaborator Dr. Judith Curry has written regarding Muller’s latest science by press release (no, the paper hasn’t been peer reviewed or accepted for publication yet),
    “Their latest paper on the 250 year record concludes that the best explanation for the observed warming is greenhouse gas emissions. In my opinion, their analysis is way over simplistic and not at all convincing . There is broad agreement that greenhouse gas emissions have contributed to the warming in the latter half of the 20th century; the big question is how much of this warming can be attributed to greenhouse gas emissions. I dont think this question can be answered by the simple curve fitting used in this paper, and I donโ€™t see that their paper adds anything to our understanding of the causes of the recent warming.”
    As Muller has stated in the past, just 2% more clouds than the computer models predict would cancel out all of the theorized future warming, and it just so happens that clouds and their drivers have the most simplistic handling in the models. The great climate centers are said to be scared stiff they’ve gotten it wrong, that clouds and aerosols are running the show. As well they should.

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  7. Paul Emery Avatar

    More from Mueller
    “โ€œThree years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming. Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. Iโ€™m now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause.โ€
    This is indeed the summary of his research. I recall this blog applauding this Koch Bros effort to study global warming and this is the conclusion. The wheels are falling off the opposition and those who will be making financial investments based on a clear understanding of the likely effects of global warming will be playing their cards with that in mind.

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  8. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory’s 821pm is on the mark. Until Muller (or anybody) can appropriately analyze the contributing factors AND the sensitivities of each factor to the aggregate (and algorithmic) temperature, they are just doing data massaging and complex curve fitting that depends upon assumptions which can and will be counter argued.
    Nevertheless, the climate change issue remains political, and those applauding it are only capable of appreciating consensus science – you know, democracy and all about who gets the most votes.
    (For the technical reader – on physics side, there exist no general circulation models which can credibly fit historical data and ‘predict’ what has already been measured. Which means that we really don’t understand the component processes that contribute to climate – e.g. the important carbon cycle of the earth is still not known.)

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  9. Russ Steele Avatar

    Paul @06:53PM & 08:48PM
    You might want to check out these links before going too far down the road holding hands with Muller.
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/08/06/nasas-james-hansens-big-cherry-pick/
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/31/best_barnum/
    http://joannenova.com.au/2012/07/muller-the-pretend-skeptic-makes-three-claims-hes-half-right-on-one/
    If your are short on time, read Jo Nova:
    Mullerโ€™s three claims:
    1. Heโ€™s a converted skeptic. (Naked, demonstrably wrong, PR.)
    2. The world has warmed by 0.3C/decade. (Heโ€™s half right โ€” heโ€™s only exaggerating 100%.)
    3. That itโ€™s mostly due to man-made emissions. (Baseless speculation.)
    As far as public policies go the only point that matters is 3, but most of the conversation is about 1 and 2. Worse, most journalists and many so-called scientists think evidence for warming is the same as evidence that coal fired power stations did it. How unscientific.
    Jo Nova supports her case by examining each of Muller’s claims in detail.

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  10. Gregory Avatar

    โ€œThree years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming.”
    Paul, that’s just Muller’s hyperbole, as most didn’t have any real problem with seeing the world had warmed. It’s always been an issue of how much, and why. The BEST, since it uses the data that had already been adjusted upwards on somewhat dubious grounds, and not raw instrumental data, and is affected by the urban heat island effects (consider how the Reno temp sensor data didn’t used to be in between two of the largest runways in Nevada) of the past half century of urban development.
    Muller’s ‘skepticism’ was purely on the land surface temp data records from the same folks who were “hiding the decline”. At least he’s done a decent job of replicating the data while making the databases and the software code publicly available. What he hasn’t done is any of the hard work to decide what actually drives the surface temperature changes.
    Hint, the science of understanding how the oceans interact with land temps is even less ready for prime time than the surface temp simulations.

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  11. Paul Emery Avatar

    Pretty much a predictable response. I strikes me that the Koch Bros. were looking for information they could count on for future decisions. They hired and funded a skeptic and this is what he came up with. That’s how I see it. The truth does exist and will reveal itself in time.
    Men come and go but earth abides
    Ecclesiastes

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  12. Russ Steele Avatar

    Paul@11:36
    Yes a very predictable response! You did not even read the links provided. That is the problem when dealing with the AGW religion, the fact do not matter.

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  13. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    Taxpayers spent upwards of $3,000,000,000 on ‘Curiosity’. I would have ‘voted’ for a $3,000,000,000 prize for someone to engineer a car that provides 120+ miles per gallon or energy equivalent using another energy source. How ‘curiosity’ serves the collective (or the individual) is beyond me. #wasteoftimeandMYmoney
    Thank God that we don’t get the government we pay for.

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  14. Michael Anderson Avatar

    AGW is a meme. As George correctly states, this meme is more about religion (Gaia) and politics than science. This particular Decree of Bad Weather by Bishop Hansen is just one in a long line of ecclesiastical decrees that originates from Pope Lovelock dating back to the 1970s.
    You folks can talk about the science of aerosols, and ginned-up hockey sticks, and unfair and immoral CARB/Agenda21 initiatives all you want, but the AGW Meme will continue unabated, and will roll on w/o you.
    Why? Because AGW is but a tiny piece of the overarching evidence that the human footprint on planet earth is problematic and perhaps needs an adjustment or two. The following issues are all tied together:
    * AGW (whether true or not is irrelevant)
    * Species loss (true; other-specie-habitats are being converted to human use)
    * Over-consumption of wild food sources (fisheries)
    * Human mega-regions vacuuming resources that surround them (contado concept)
    * Asymmetrical human wars fought over said resources
    * Larger, more complex, machine disasters (BP, Fukushima)
    I could go on with this list, but you get the point. I would suggest that by addressing AGW in context with these larger issues will attract a larger and more receptive audience. BTW, I have made this suggestion to AGW-Memers as well, to no avail. I offer it here with the best of intentions.

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  15. George Rebane Avatar

    MicharlA 825pm – Thanks for the broadening context. My two immediate (more later) reactions are –
    1. Does not the inclusion of the controversial AGW issue (meme?) taint the entire list, and cause dismissal of the other items on the ‘more of the same’ basis?
    2. How do you see managing the alleviation of the surviving items on such a list; what kind of organization or initiative is required?
    My own hope is that given freedom, man’s inventiveness and the promise of unlimited rewards will motivate the solution to almost all of the problems you outline. IMHO it all starts and ends with stabilizing earth’s population. In the developed world broad-based education is the key.
    During flights of reverie I have tried to imagine a society of nations with each enforcing its citizens be inoculated with education in the same manner as against infectious diseases. To their tested ability to absorb, no one would have the right to remain ignorant of the basic skills that define literacy and numeracy. In short, teach kids the tools to then learn, research, and understand the more esoteric subject areas of history, cultural traditions, law, art, the sciences, and, of course, politics. Government would maintain and administer the testing functions, but not instruction.

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  16. Michael Anderson Avatar

    George, I wish I could spend some more time with my response this morning, but I appreciate very much what you wrote here. “Stabilizing the population,” of course, is subject to a wide range of interpretation. But statistically speaking more educated human populations procreate in a more rational manner, so I completely agree with you that education is a huge component of mitigation.
    I don’t believe inclusion of an AGW discussion “taints the list,” but I do think that it must be addressed in this broader context. For example, many environmentalists believe that we must cut back on our energy use and I happen to believe that this is impossible–it has never happened in human history (except for brief periods) and our destiny is to use energy to improve our lot.
    BTW, the “organization or initiative” will be complex and evolve in chaotic fits and starts. It won’t be pretty; that’s all I know.
    More later…

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  17. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    George
    If I might correct you, it all starts and ends with stabilizing mans consumption.
    We cannot rely on “flights of reverie” to solve urgent and difficult problems of over consumption and pollution. Do you scribe to the ‘seventh generation” level of responsibility to maintain our mother earth for the future?
    ” “We are looking ahead , as is one of the first mandates given us as chiefs, to make sure and to make every decision that we make relate to the welfare and well-being of the seventh generation to come. . ”
    Oren Lyons, Chief of the Onondaga Nation

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  18. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, 11:36, Muller was never a “skeptic”. The only thing he had expressed skepticism about was the accuracy of the UAE surface temperature record. BEFORE the BEST started he was clear that he thought that the CO2 positive feedback theory was “very probably true”, and that is the AGW scare summarized.
    “* AGW (whether true or not is irrelevant)” MA 8:25
    Here is the crux of the catastrophic AGW scare; the believers don’t CARE if it isn’t true. The ends justify the means, the neo-Machiavellian credo, and the scare is the only whip the neo-Luddites have. That “tiny piece” was and is being used to, in essence, blackmail the developed world. California is going the way of Spain as we type.
    MA’s list of the horrors of modern technological life pales in comparison to life being comparatively nasty, brutal and short over most of human existence, before thermodynamics became a science central to humankind and James Watt figured out how to make steam engines work well enough to become important. Utopia is not an option. Diplomacy and dealing honestly with the results of progress is.

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  19. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1024am – I disagree totally. The causal drive for consumption is population, and not the other way around. Pre-columbian North American Indians were among the societies who demonstrated that, as were the Central American Indians who also corroborated that by eating themselves out of resources as their populations grew.
    And please disregard future counsel from whomever told you to “rely” on flights of reverie – mine (859am) or anyone else’s – for solutions to solving “urgent and difficult problems”.
    Re Chief Lyons of the Iroquois Turtle Clan – I have not found any evidence in the literature that any pre-Columbian Indians in the western hemisphere denied their current needs in order to secure the welfare of the next generation, let alone the “seventh generation”.
    Even Eurasian civilizations were not that smart (witness the defoliation of the lands surrounding the Mediterranean), they preserved the environment only to the extent that they were not able to destroy it. Our progressives look at that record and gush over themselves about the wise and noble aboriginals who lived in ‘harmony with nature’. Now there’s a flight of reverie upon which we should not base current public policy.
    There are better ways to use our wealth and knowledge (technology) to preserve our environment than the denial of use approaches mandated through programs such as Agenda21 (q.v.). Large ignorant populations that cannot generate sufficient wealth and concentrate it have no hope for preserving their environment. Everything becomes a primitive commons and soon looks like Haiti or Madagascar.

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  20. Michael Anderson Avatar

    Replies to Greg’s 10:27:
    “[T]he believers don’t CARE if it isn’t true. The ends justify the means, the neo-Machiavellian credo, and the scare is the only whip the neo-Luddites have.”
    This statement just puts everyone who doesn’t agree with you into a nice, tidy box, and I don’t think even you believe that is the best description of these loggerheads. People who are trying to understand AGW comes in all stripes and colors; it’s complicated, so caution and a respect for complexity are the best approach. Not ‘my way or the highway,’ from either end.
    “MA’s list of the horrors of modern technological life pales in comparison to life being comparatively nasty, brutal and short over most of human existence…”
    I completely disagree with you regarding the scale. Sure, lifespans were short and food was scarce, but the Galapagans (for example) had no way to destroy anything more than their own local habitat. Human habitat destruction on a global scale is real, and that is what I am talking about here.
    “Utopia is not an option. Diplomacy and dealing honestly with the results of progress is.”
    Who’s talking about utopia? Not me. And if we’re going to deal honestly with the results of progress, what mechanism do we use to make the decision about how many species we are willing to lose?

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  21. Michael Anderson Avatar

    Replies to George’s 11:23:
    I think you are correct that we would be hard-put to find a thriving ancient civilization that did not eat itself out of house and home.
    “Large ignorant populations that cannot generate sufficient wealth and concentrate it have no hope for preserving their environment. Everything becomes a primitive commons and soon looks like Haiti or Madagascar.”
    I agree with this thesis, but with a caveat. I think there is a Holy Sweetspot by which humanity is able to create and concentrate wealth and protect the commons. But just as the commons can be destroyed when all the poor people rush into the forest and pull down the trees because there is no one to pump the NG out of the ground, so can it also be destroyed when the generated wealth becomes so concentrated that the drilling becomes the only goal.
    For example, our national parks were created when we were a growing nation, our longevity was increasing, and the middle class was building.Eating the seed corn destroys the middle class.
    It’s a delicate balance, never been tried before and certainly with no track record of success. And when we talk past each other, we ensure success will never be achieved.

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  22. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 203pm – Agreed.

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  23. Russ Steele Avatar

    As for โ€œeating self out of house and homeโ€ one has to consider climate impacts. Science News has an article in the current issue, titled Ruined. โ€œClimate may have had a far more profound impact on past societies than we realized” is the sub-title. Prolong drought being the main instrument of destruction. Prolonged drought would have led to famines which explains why cities were abandoned and the citizens whet in search of food in the surrounding forest and fields. As for the Maya rain fall dropped 40 percent with long dry periods, just before they abandoned their cites. I have not read the rest of the article but in California the Sierra have experienced droughts lasting 200 to 500 years long through out history.
    The Sacramento Bee had an interesting story about large trees found 80 to 120 feet below the surface in Fallen Leaf Lake, indicating the lake level was once much lower and for a period of about 200 years.ย  More details HERE:
    http://ncwatch.typepad.com/media/2010/07/long-term-drought-in-the-sierra.html
    The researchers found:
    During the last 500 years, a wet climate, punctuated by intermittent but substantial droughts, began to dominate the region, and lake levels again rose and cirques glaciers reformed in the Sierra. A series of substantial droughts are documented during this period, however. Dozens of submerged tree stumps are located up to 300 feet below the present day level of Donner Lake a tributary of the Truckee River; carbon โ€“14 samples from one stump date from AD 1433 (Lindstrom and Bloomer 1994). Another warm period, documented by tree-ring studies and Truckee River run-off, dated between AD 1579-1585, and again around AD 1630 (Hardman and Reil 1936). It is possible that Lake Tahoe contributed relatively little water to the Truckee River during the last 200 years. During the century between the mid 1700s to mid 1800s, the level of Lake Tahoe may have been below its rim, with no water flow into the Truckee River. This is documented by a submerged stump in the Upper Truckee River Delta dating from AD 1720 (Lindstrom 1996a), one from Donner Lake dating from AD 1800 (Lindstrom and Bloomer 1994) and one in Emerald Bay dating to AD 1840 (Lindstrom 1992). The 40 years between AD 1875-1915 were the longest period during which the flow of the Truckee River was above the average. During the AD 1930s drought, Lake Tahoe ceased to flow from its outlet for six consecutive years. Drought within the last decade (late 1980s to 1990s) either stopped Tahoeโ€™s flow into the Truckee or reduced it to almost nothing.
    Please note, the period from 1550ย AD to 1850ย AD this was known as the Little Ice Age which included three particularly cold intervals: one beginning about 1650, another about 1770, and the last in 1850, each separated by intervals of slight warming. California longest drought came during the cold periods, not the dreaded AGW warming.
    According to solar scientist we are on the cusp of another period of minimums sunspots that were thought to be major contributors to the LIA, when millions died in Europe from starvation. During the Dalton Minimum California experiences an 8 year drought, followed by three years of ample moisture and then five more years of drought. The one to three year drought we have experiences in the last century are nothing compared to what is yet to come.

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  24. Paul Emery Avatar

    RE 07 Rebane August 2012 at 11:23 AM
    Not true George. For example the consumption of meat squanders huge amounts of the worlds land and water. There would be no starvation if this land were used for non meat food production. It is well established that a meat-based diet requires 7 times more land than a plant-based diet. This is just one example of consumption habits causing food shortages.
    Also George your equation that personal freedom and prosperity somehow is a remedy for the abuse or resources does not historically look very good. Look at the slaughter of the buffalo and the California antelope as examples from the good old days. Look at the destruction caused by hydraulic mining before government regulations restricted economic freedom by passing laws. Look at the water quality of Lake Erie before strict regulations came into effect. Indeed endangered species are the canary in the goldmine when it comes to being an indicator of a dying natural infrastructure.

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  25. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 714pm – I have no idea what your first paragraph pertains to; certainly nothing in my 1123am. You just cited an anecdotal scenario for which you have no basis for arguing “there would be no starvation” without giving the related parameters of population. We eat plenty of meat, and so have the Europeans, without any starvation. Why, because the population was low relative to the production capacity of the land.
    And your second paragraph expounds the heart of a true progressive. Constantly arguing that ALL government regulation is rejected by a free people, and that it is the wisdom of government, somehow separate from a free people, that brings goodness and reason to life. I’m afraid not. By any body count you care to examine, government has always been the incipient evil in human societies that crossed the threshold of civility more times than can be chronicled. It is a free people, with recourse, who have the best chance for sustaining a civil and beneficial government. These words are anathema to a collectivist who cannot conceive of such an order.

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  26. Russ Steele Avatar

    Paul@07:14PM
    Meat eating played a major role in human development. When early humans started to eat meat and eventually hunt, their new, higher-quality diet meant that women could wean their children earlier. Women could then give birth to more children during their reproductive life, which is a possible contribution to the population gradually spreading over the world. The connection between eating meat and a faster weaning process is shown by a research group from Lund University in Sweden, which compared close to 70 mammalian species and found clear patterns.
    Learning to hunt was a decisive step in human evolution. Hunting necessitated communication, planning and the use of tools, all of which demanded a larger brain. At the same time, adding meat to the diet made it possible to develop this larger brain.
    “This has been known for a long time. However, no one has previously shown the strong connection between meat eating and the duration of breast-feeding, which is a crucial piece of the puzzle in this context. Eating meat enabled the breast-feeding periods and thereby the time between births, to be shortened. This must have had a crucial impact on human evolution,” says Elia Psouni of Lund University.
    Red meat if a vital part of brain development. When we choose to eat meat we have a direct impact on our brain. Some people avoid red meat because they have heard that it is bad for their health. While red meat is an animal-based food that contains fat, it is also important for providing protein, vitamin B-12 and iron. When eaten in limited amounts, red meat can provide nutrients that are important to overall health, including brain growth and development. More here: http://www.livestrong.com/article/499111-red-meat-brain-development/#ixzz22uyMdMSF
    I had two vegan engineers that world for me. They lunch pail was a cooler about two feet long and 18 inches wide and was filled with veggies. These tow engineers ate from start to end of shift. They snacked the whole day long. There were never more than 4 feet from their lunch box, except for bathroom brakes. While they were bright people they, seem to lack any more energy than it took to operate a computer terminal.

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  27. Russ Steele Avatar

    opps hit the wrong button,
    “I had two vegan engineers that worked for me. Their lunch pail” … was the intended edit.

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  28. Paul Emery Avatar

    George
    “The causal drive for consumption is population, and not the other way around.” 11:23AM
    My comparison was pretty simple. The problem is consumption not population. Less consumption of meat leaves more land for food production. More use of mass transportation leaves more resources for future generations.
    A good current example of the necessity of regulation is “fracking.”
    What, if any, regulation do you feel is appropriate and do you feel we have enough information about the long term effects on the environment?

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  29. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 748pm – The current regulations governing fracking are sufficient. However, like all relatively new extraction methods, its impact on the environment should continue to be monitored and additional regulations drafted when/if needed. You can bet your sweet asset that the energy companies are monitoring the bejeezus out of their drilling sites to early detect any harm. And they and third parties are working on technologies in anticipation of problems (real and political) and to make that extraction method even safer. All driven by capitalistic greed.

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  30. Michael Anderson Avatar

    I agree with George that fracking may have a good cost/benefit ratio. The whole question is about how close the petroleum deposits are to the water table, which usually is ‘not very close.’
    OTOH, I am not much a fan of the tar sands in mid-Canada. I have only spent time in the western upper territories and have not seen the tar sands in person, but the pictures are disturbing. These are habitats that will take hundreds of centuries to be made whole again.
    Regarding Russ’ meat discussion, I think we are pretty much in agreement. Paul E.’s point is well taken, that meat production is highly resource intensive, and all-meat diets are certainly not healthy.
    But all-vegan and all-vegetarian diets are difficult to maintain, as Russ’ anecdote outlines. I happen to (try to) follow the so-called Caveman Diet, which means no processed foods, very limited sugar and flour (best is none), some kind of meat every other day or so (fish is preferred), and lots of low-sugar fruits and vegetables. In our society it is difficult to follow this diet, let me tell you.

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  31. Gregory Avatar

    Regulations should be reserved for real problems, not imagined or theorized ones. In any case, regulations or no, civil law remains and the basics are you break it, you fix it and make the folks inconvenienced or injured whole again.
    I’m convinced that the main resistance to fracking is that it means we have cheap carbon fuels for a few extra generations, and that doesn’t fit the AGW gameplan.

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  32. Paul Emery Avatar

    Ask the people who have fire water from their faucets.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U01EK76Sy4A
    http://www.propublica.org/article/scientific-study-links-flammable-drinking-water-to-fracking
    “most of the wells had some methane, the water samples taken closest to the gas wells had on average 17 times the levels detected in wells further from active drilling. The group defined an active drilling area as within one kilometer, or about six tenths of a mile, from a gas well.”

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  33. TomKenworth Avatar

    The Zamboni should be brought out to clear the ice for a fresh skate, but I hear they don’t work too good underwater….

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  34. TomKenworth Avatar

    I’ve never seen a bathroom with brakes? How does that work? Sounds like Gregorian Engineering is at it again…

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  35. Russ Steele Avatar

    Paul@11:01
    Even the EPA could not come up with one proven case of contamination from sub surface fracking. EPA Backpedals on Fracking Contamination , WSJ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303404704577313741463447670.html
    Is Fracking Safe? The Top 10 Myths About Natural Gas Drilling: Myth #4
    9/12/2011
    “[THERE’S] NEVER BEEN ONE CASEโ€”DOCUMENTED CASEโ€”OF GROUNDWATER CONTAMINATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF HYDRAULIC FRACTURING [WELLS]”
    SEN. JAMES INHOFE, R-OKLA., APRIL 2011
    The senator is incorrect. In the past two years alone, a series of surface spills, including two blowouts at wells operated by Chesapeake Energy and EOG Resources and a spill of 8000 gallons of fracking fluid at a site in Dimock, Pa., have contaminated groundwater in the Marcellus Shale region. But the idea stressed by fracking critics that deep-injected fluids will migrate into groundwater is mostly false. Basic geology prevents such contamination from starting below ground. A fracture caused by the drilling process would have to extend through the several thousand feet of rock that separate deep shale gas deposits from freshwater aquifers. According to geologist Gary Lash of the State University of New York at Fredonia, the intervening layers of rock have distinct mechanical properties that would prevent the fissures from expanding a mile or more toward the surface. It would be like stacking a dozen bricks on top of each other, he says, and expecting a crack in the bottom brick to extend all the way to the top one. What’s more, the fracking fluid itself, thickened with additives, is too dense to ascend upward through such a channel. EPA officials are closely watching one place for evidence otherwise: tiny Pavillion, Wyo., a remote town of 160 where high levels of chemicals linked to fracking have been found in groundwater supplies. Pavillion’s aquifer sits several hundred feet above the gas cache, far closer than aquifers atop other gas fields. If the investigation documents the first case of fracking fluid seeping into groundwater directly from gas wells, drillers may be forced to abandon shallow depositsโ€”which wouldn’t affect Marcellus wells.
    ( It turns out the the EPA test found fracking fluid in the pure water used as the base line , water that has been certified to be free from any contaminates. The whole Wyoming case blew up in their face.)
    There are natural deposits of gas that are close to the water table and have been been exploited in the news media and on You Tube. I am really surprised that a man of your intelligence was taken in by the fracking issue. The oil industry has been fracking for over 60 years. I worked in the Wyoming oil and gas fields in the 1950 and we they were fracking then. It is only now that we have horizontal drilling which is producing cheap natural gas from tight formations that challenge the economics of alternative energy has the environmentalist become concerned.

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  36. TomKenworth Avatar

    ” drillers may be forced to abandon shallow deposits”
    I wonder if they’ll abandon their false advertizing, which claims thousands and thousand of feet between fracking and aquafiers.? While claiming one thing on tv, they obviously were pushing the envelop out in the real world, and will only back down when caught. Now about all those earthquakes in OK.. What’s your, “not proven” story there? Seems the legislature found proof enough.

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  37. TomKenworth Avatar

    I suppose you like the tortured logic here:
    http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/more-on-the-link-between-earthquakes-and-fracking/
    where we don’t blame fracking , but claim that pumping the waste slurry into deep wells afterwards, or the increased extraction of gas, is responsible instead???
    Hello?
    “Love and Marriage. Love and Marriage,
    Go together like a horse and carriage.
    You can’t have one,
    You can’t have one,
    Without the other.”
    Ditto fracking and disposal of waste lube goo produced in the process.
    Ditto earthquakes and taking out large quantities of gas.
    Thinking in iso-logic* tight compartments leads to environmental and structural disasters.
    *short for isolated logic, not “same.”
    Here’s another group of idiots who try to comparmentalize the disposal of fracking fluids from the fracking process itself:
    http://m.bhpioneer.com/mobile/local_news/article_98a28112-9bb7-11e1-804e-0019bb2963f4.html
    So I guess we should say, “Fine, go frack all you want, but find some other way of disposing of all the frackwater, other than lubing up Mother Earth for another go-round of earthquakes.”

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  38. TomKenworth Avatar

    Since Crabb has pointed out the meat issue touched on slightly here, I thought I’d bring up a more significant item:
    “The discovery of fire, or, more precisely, the controlled use of fire was, of necessity, one of the earliest of human discoveries. Fire’s purposes are multiple, some of which are to add light and heat, to cook plants and animals, to clear forests for planting, to heat-treat stone for making stone tools, to burn clay for ceramic objects.
    Discovery of Fire
    The controlled use of fire was an invention of the Early Stone Age (or Lower Paleolithic). The earliest evidence for controlled use of fire is at the Lower Paleolithic site of Gesher Benot Ya’aqov in Israel, where charred wood and seeds were recovered from a site dated 790,000 years ago.
    Not everybody believes that; the next oldest site is at Zhoukoudian, a Lower Paleolithic site in China dated to about 400,000 BP, and at Qesem Cave (Israel), between about 200,000-400,000 years ago.
    In a paper published in Nature in March 2011, Roebroeks and Villa report their examinations of the available data for European sites and conclude that habitual use of fire wasn’t part of the human (meaning early modern and Neanderthal both) suite of behaviors until ca. 300,000 to 400,000 years ago. They argue that the earlier sites are representative of opportunistic use of natural fires. ”
    Not only did fire make it possible to enjoy early barbeques undisturbed by the hungry beasties, it also allow for the discovery of hardened clays, then ceramics, then decorated ceramics, and finally, most important of all, the discovery of molten metal, from the glazes used for decorating ceramics.
    And that of course finally led to the invention of drill bits for boring holes to get rid of frack water goo, earthquakes, and of course Howard Hughes:
    “Hughes was born in Dallas, Texas, on Christmas Eve 1905. His father, Howard Sr., was an oil prospector who was nearly broke, and his mother, Allene Gano, a prominent Dallas socialite. Hughes Sr.’s fortunes soared in 1909 when he perfected an oil drill bit that pierced bedrock, an invention that would also make Howard Jr. a wealthy young man as head of the Hughes Tool Company, in Houston, Texas.”

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  39. TomKenworth Avatar

    Given the 4.5 quake that just occurred in Los Angeles, I wonder how much longer the State of California and the County governments will sit on the sidelines?
    http://www.alternet.org/story/155829/fracking_los_angeles%3A_what_life_is_like_on_the_country%27s_biggest_urban_oilfield

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  40. Gregory Avatar

    ‘Doug in Nevada City, you’re on the air on KFBK’, heard yesterday about 3:30PM.
    Could it be that Doug? Well, he insisted on giving his bona fides as a Cal grad, as were his kids Then went on to browbeat the host (apparently not the regular guy, just one of the regular newsguys) for thinking there might be an issue for California to give a free UC education to some undocumented Democrats whose parents didn’t bother to immigrate legally. The host hung up on him for continually talking over the host, trying to turn it into the Doug Show. There’s a podcast. I give it a 99.9999% probability that it was that Doug.
    Russ, yes, the EPA has tried hard to establish fracking as a threat, but without success, and I suspect they know about the youtube’d instances.

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  41. Paul Emery Avatar

    There are also earthquakes in Texas where they’ve never been before and this from New York
    “The U.S. Geological Survey has warned New York state regulators that their plan to allow drilling and hydraulic fracturing for natural gas in the Marcellus Shale could endanger private water wells, municipal aquifers and New York Cityโ€™s drinking water supply.
    http://www.ewg.org/report/federal-scientists-warn-ny-fracking-risks
    The assessment of the USGS, widely regarded as impartial and authoritative on drilling issues, intensifies pressure on Gov. Andrew Cuomo not to proceed with a drilling plan drafted by the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation. Cuomo has pledged to โ€œlet the science and the facts make the determination, not emotion and not politics.โ€1
    The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has separately written New York regulators arguing that they are ill- equipped to regulate a boom in shale gas drilling and have limited financial means to enforce the numerous new regulations they have proposed. The EPA has raised additional concerns, among them, that the state has understated the severity of radioactive pollution associated with drilling and doesnโ€™t know how such contaminants would be disposed of.”

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  42. TomKenworth Avatar

    Give that man a cupie doll! Suckered him in and whacked him, for his non issue involving all of 35 students, who were dragged here by their parents, at tender ages, and then went on to be successful USA students, graduating high school. He was hoping that, given my bonefides (total UC family), I’d be in chorus with him. Fat Chance!

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  43. TomKenworth Avatar

    “kewpie doll” Just remembered. Did 10 other things in between.

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  44. Gregory Avatar

    Happened to be driving and had KFBK on at the same time again…they’re laughing at you still, Keach, because you made no sense and just kept babbling. Pretty much like you do here.
    Paul, let me know when you have official EPA documents, not drafts published by activist .orgs. So far, it appears current regulations have managed to keep up with actual problems, unless you think inexpensive natural gas is an actual problem.

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  45. Russ Steele Avatar

    Human activities have been triggering earthquakes for decades. One of the earliest known examples came in the 1930s, when the Hoover Dam filled Lake Mead, exerting great pressure on the earth, and inducing a series of quakes. When the Oroville Dam was filling in the 1970s we had a strong earth quake in Nevada County which was attributed to the weight of the water behind the dam.
    Since the 1960s, seismologists have been recording earthquakes that happen after liquids are injected into the ground, which happens during a variety of processes. Fluids, for example, are often used to increase pressure and push oil and gas from deep underground.
    There was a project to sequester CO2 emission in the ground, which environmentalist are all for, also caused small earthquakes. Open pit blasting can cause small local earthquakes. Yes, we humans can cause earthquakes and they are small enough that USG does not even record any thing below a 3.0. Why, because there are hundreds of them every day. We live on a very active planet that is controlled by chaotic process over which we have no control. Get use to it.
    Why is that the environmentalist are only concerned by fracking earth quakes and not CO2 sequestering earth quakes, or cold water injection in geothermal wells, or filing dams? Why, the low cost natural gas it produces makes alternative energy non-competitive.

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  46. Gregory Avatar

    “Why, the low cost natural gas it produces makes alternative energy non-competitive” Russ, 637
    Russ, you blew it with that one. Alternative energies are already non-competitive for feeding the grid. What fracking does is insure they will remain uncompetitive for a century or two.

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  47. Russ Steele Avatar

    Gregory@08:35
    You are correct, that was the point I was trying to make. With low cost natural gas there is no future for high cost alternative energy, wind and solar. The only hope the environmental wackos have is to regulate natural gas out of the market with claims that fracking is a danger to the public. Other nations are not going to buy that, and will soon be more competitive than the US because they have access to low cost natural gas. We need a regime change in Washington!

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  48. Gregory Avatar

    Hi Russ, I figured that’s what you meant, but don’t forget distant places that aren’t likely to ever be on the grid, where wind, solar and small hydro will always be viable, unless small fusion reactors ever become a reality. One can always dream ๐Ÿ˜‰

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  49. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    Start with this. You can find the entire document on the The assessment of the USGS, link on the second paragraph of this link.
    http://www.ewg.org/report/federal-scientists-warn-ny-fracking-risks
    “Revisions to the draft Supplemental Generic Environmental Impact Statement (dSGEIS) propose many critical measures to help minimize the impact of shale-gas development on the water resources of New York State. However, a number of water-resource characterization and monitoring needs and opportunities related to shale-gas development have not been addressed by the revised dSGEIS. These issues include:
    1) Shallow characterization of freshwater, saltwater, and gas;
    2) Groundwater monitoring at shale-gas well pads;
    3) Principal Aquifer delineation;
    4) Sources of recharge to stratified-drift aquifers and groundwater supplies; 5) Microseismic monitoring of hydraulic fracturing;
    6) Fractures, faults, and hydraulic-fracture barriers; 7) New York City aqueduct; and
    8) Well water-quality sampling and data base………
    .

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  50. Michael Anderson Avatar

    I’d like to see some pebble reactors…

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