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July 2012
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George Rebane

Well folks, Scranton’s bankruptcy may have been the cognitive tipping point for the nation, but because of the lamestream cover-up we can’t be certain.  Following yesterday’s announcement by San Bernardino, the Pennsylvania city is now the 12th municipality filing Chapter 9, with 27 more jurisdictions standing in line to be next.  And the cause of these financial calamities is the same – paying for public service pensions has broken the back of every one of them.

JustSayNORR has reported on and predicted this trail of tears for the last five years when Mike McDaniel and I co-authored an SESF position paper alerting Nevada County to the problem and putting it into a national context.  The Board of Supervisors gave us a polite listen and then dismissed the matter with a papered over version that everything was going well behind the curtain.  Now we know that our unfunded pension liabilities are over $119M, and that is computed with a la-la land discount rate.  During the entire time the local leftie chorus has denied that public service pensions would cause any fiscal failures, and that its reporting was all a rightwing scare tactic in their overall policy promoting the ideas of fiscal responsibility and smaller government.  Where are those useful idiots now?

Before returning to how to handle these national disasters, let’s take a look at America’s tax situation.  Obama, in his eternal avoidance of his track record on the economy, is now shifting focus to tax fairness.  In his opening round, he has thrown out a placebo by urging Congress to exempt households earning less than $250K from the planned ‘Taxmageddon’ scheduled to hit next January.  And he’s going to exempt them for a full year – my, my! – before he shoves it to them in 2014.  BTW, don’t think he’s exempting them from all the other tax increases that will be popping out like corks out of champagne bottles next New Year’s Day.  What a guy!

Obama’s big message of the week has been ‘tax fairness’, and that the ‘rich’ are still not paying their fair share.  So what are the so-called rich paying now, and what should they pay?  Look at the table below.

TaxFairness


This is a tax participation schedule that is more ‘progressive’ than most of Europe.  Progressives have no answer for what should be the maximum tax rate for Americans; their solution is to keep raising taxes for as long as necessary to pay for all the government that malignant socialism requires.  The American people on the other hand have repeatedly told us that the max tax rate should be 30% or lower.  Obama’s nostrums for driving off the coming tax cliff are significantly higher.  And that sumbich is telling people that he’s going to get us out of Depression2 and the economy moving again by hitting the country with its biggest tax increase in history.

In the meantime there are mass movements of people and businesses scurrying from state to state seeking environments where government intrusion and the cost of tribute is less.  Over the last decade California’s insane economics and eco-nazism have driven over four million of its productive citizens to friendlier financial climes.  All this energy and creativity wasted on attempting to escape government instead of productively creating the wealth the country needs.

So how should we respond to the pension plague that is promising to swallow everything that we have worked for?  My outlandish proposal has centered on the notion of ‘Just say NO!’.  Simply refuse to contribute one more penny that is needed for current government services to the futile effort of trying to make up the impossible unfunded liabilities sums.  We will first pay for the sheriff and fill the potholes, and then distribute pro rata to the pension funds what is left over.

I believe it will take just one jurisdiction, say, Nevada County to refuse to sacrifice tax revenues required for current needs.  If it is done with openness and honesty, the infection of rational courage would catch on and spread across the country like a wildfire.

The basis for ‘Just say NO!’ is simple.  The existing pension obligations are a legacy of corruption from the collusion of previous elected boards, councils, panels, …who negotiated with public service unions in an atmosphere of calculated concessions from the public welfare.  The people were misrepresented by their electeds when such blatantly insane contracts for public service employees were negotiated.  Prudent accountancy would have shown that there was no way that future tax revenues augmenting reasonable pension fund management would ever have provided the portfolio amounts required to pay off the lavish retirement benefits which the unions extracted and the politicians conceded.  These contracts were simply not negotiated in good faith for the benefit of the taxpayers who were bamboozled at every step along the way.

The negotiating politicians knew that they would be long gone when the piper had to be paid.  And in the meantime, ponying up to the unions got them the necessary campaign support and easy working conditions while they were in office.  Well, now the time has run out, and the remaining alternatives are bleak.  So bleak that they don’t include the ability for any semblance of funding the unfunded.  In Nevada County we don’t even know how much we are liable for and when.  All we know is that the sum ranges way upwards of $119M, because that figure was computed with laughable discount rates.  Applying the Pelosi Principle here – we’ll know we’ve gone off the fiscal cliff after we are in freefall.

So given this history of collusion, perfidy, and corruption, our sitting politicians (assuming they are clean) have no better plan forward that declaring that they will ‘Just say NO!’.  And dear reader, I invite you to consider what any reasonable counter to such a principled stand will be.  Will the governor send in the National Guard to confiscate the county’s snowplows, or board up the Rood Center and put it up for sale, or … .  Not if the county’s citizens strap on their cojones and gather en masse to defend what is ours, and that which will not be taken from us through legal machinations seeking to enforce and perpetuate a legacy of corruption.

And seeing that stand-off on the six o’clock news, what will happen when the next county in similar dire straits responds the same way?  And then the next, and the next, …?

[17jul12 update]  The Volker panel called the State Budget Crisis Task Force has just published its report.  Its main conclusion is that “the gap between entitlement costs and state revenues available to pay for them have become unsustainable”.  And that which cannot be sustained will not be sustained.  More here.

Posted in , , , ,

117 responses to “The Great Pension Heist is Discovered (updated 17jul12)”

  1. Michael Anderson Avatar

    George, very nicely pruned. I like your garden.
    I’ll try to answer your above from 7/13/2012 12:56 pm shortly…

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  2. Gregory Avatar

    George, you missed the self aggrandizing ad hominem of 12 July 2012 at 09:58 AM. Pest, not Nemesis.
    “Tom” once again misses an essential point of salaries and compensation in private employment… companies can and do go out of business. Name a failing California school district that has been dissolved. A failed county? None? And we’re only up to three California cities opting for adult supervision to date.
    The pension plague, like the union contract plagues, is something that either has to be negotiated away, or wiped clean by a bankruptcy with CalPERS/STRS having to make do with fairly distributing what they have to their stakeholders. We can’t just decide to give pensioners what is left over in a haphazard fashion. Then there’s the problem that it isn’t an issue of keeping property tax revenues in the county… that battle was lost long ago.

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  3. TomKenworth Avatar

    The “defend multinat interests overseas” plague is draining too many resources from the economic sectors which support the public infrastructures. It is morally, ethically and intellectually dishonest to attempt to blame the public infrastructures for the lack of dollars to pay for them. Those who voted for wars (three of them in the last ten years, two ongoing today) and the banks are responsible for the empty pension banks and wallets of the average American. The pests that carry this plague are running amuck, as evidenced by their presence on this blogs and elsewhere. Somebody’s crop dusting plane is sputtering and ready to crash.

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  4. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    TK said “It is morally, ethically and intellectually dishonest to attempt to blame the public infrastructures for the lack of dollars to pay for them.” in his 808 comment.
    I couldn’t agree more. Americans pay billions and trillions in taxes designated for infrastructure and it gets swiped by the democrats to balance their budgets. California is a prime example of that. We even pay a tax on the tax when we buy fuel. Then their is the Davis-Bacon Act and environmental studies and then out and out waste. One plant moved in San Francisco cost 250K! It was not really endangered but the eco freaks wanted to save it. Imagine how many potholes could be filled with 250K? No TK, it is not that we don’t pay enough it is the democrat waste machine that is stealing your hard earned (if you do) money.
    Regarding overseas. Please explain to us if the European countries going BK are the the result of their overseas issues as you said America is. Inquiring minds want to know.

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  5. Ben Emery Avatar

    The bankruptcies are a symptom of a deregulated out of control international banking/ financial industry that operate on fractional reserves (money from nothing), compound interest, credit default swaps, and a quadrillion dollar derivative market.
    Here are some good starts on trying to understand what is going on.
    The Great American Bubble Machine
    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-great-american-bubble-machine-20100405
    HOW BROKERS BECAME BOOKIES: THE INSIDIOUS TRANSFORMATION OF MARKETS INTO CASINOS
    http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/brokers_bookies.php

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  6. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Yep, those city and county officials bankrolled and elected by the unions who then negotiated those union contracts are tools of the big bankers. My God man, are you on earth?

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  7. George Rebane Avatar

    Memo to file: We’re still looking for a shred of common ground from which to rebuild a nation.

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  8. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    You like the way the financial and banking industries are working? My guess is you don’t and that is a common ground.

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  9. TomKenworth Avatar

    “shred of common ground from which to rebuild a nation.”
    Make sure as many people as possible are as high functioning as possible, and less ptu downs of “the little people.”.

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  10. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE’s 1259pm understood the question, and offered a plausible answer that may or not be a sufficient basis for progress. TomKenworth’s 127pm offered a prescription and an admonition for something unknown. It did not address the ‘common ground’ question.

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  11. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    George, maybe as a prerequisite of commenting on RR commentators should be required to read the ‘oath’ of the Bastiat Triangle Alliance (or at a minimum The Law by F.Bastiat)?
    I am afraid to ask…. What doe progressives think of ‘personal property’ or ‘private property’?

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  12. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    I would suggest that 99% of Americans agree that a central bank is a bad concept (save M. Anderson as the 1%).

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  13. George Rebane Avatar

    MickeyMcD 712pm – The intellectually curious progressives will already have read ‘The Law’ and the definition of the Bastiat Triangle. The others, well …
    An excellent question about private property. From a lifetime of intimate contact with progressive thought, my conclusion is that progressives believe that all property belongs to the state (the collective). Various pieces of it are given into the temporary care of pre-enlightened individuals in order to motivate them to work and thereby be able to remit tribute to the state.
    But in the final analysis, no progressive can ever tell you what part of your private property will remain yours and your progeny’s in perpetuum. Why? Because they believe that all of it must ultimately revert to its rightful owner, the collective, either through your enlightenment or through your elimination.

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  14. Michael Anderson Avatar

    Mikey melodramatically, and incorrectly, suggested: “I would suggest that 99% of Americans agree that a central bank is a bad concept (save M. Anderson as the 1%).”
    First of all, let’s deconstruct “bad concept.” A central bank is no good under any circumstances, according to Mikey. I would suggest otherwise.
    While I am completely unhappy with the present implementation of a central bank in the USA, I can get past that and think about what things would be like in a global economy w/o a central bank (the Fed).
    I’d be interested to know if Mikey is willing to revisit his statement, and agree that this particular implementation of a central bank is bad, rather than the concept entirely.

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  15. billy T Avatar

    Gentlemen, no matter what the tax rate is or what libbowels think it should be, the spending of the current occupant of the White House will always be higher than the tax revenue. Make it 65% on everybody and it still falls way too pitifully short. Same with California. Save money on the winding down of the Ahab wars? Nay, spend it somewhere else. Bite the bullet and shake the dead fruit off the tree? Nay, spend it somewhere else. Gov’t will always be the least efficient administrator of funds. They are even considering giving cell phones to welfare recipients. They need alarm clocks, not cell phones. Remember welfare reform. Oh, the news was full of dire predictions that them mean ole’ members of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy were going to snatch blankets off young mothers huddled around the burn barrel on a wintery night. That is after The Right Wingers kicked them to the curb as they drive by in their Mercedes making plans to fly to Paris for lunch. Hogwash. Welfare Reform was widely popular and successful. The left is always doom and gloom. Expect the same noise about pension reform. Gov’t has never seen a dollar they could not spend. Not ever. And they think it is their money, lol. JFK said it best when he slashed the top tax rate. He said we cannot make a man better by pulling down another man. We have a administration that fosters “What can the government do for me?” Think JFK said “ask what we can do for our country.” Unfortunately this ask what our country can do for me mindset is ingrained in our public servants’ distorted minds. A sad day in America. And they write the laws!

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  16. Michael Anderson Avatar

    Mikey’s response to Now What?, and my replies:
    “Now what?” Posted by: Michael Anderson | 13 July 2012 at 12:40 PM

    Try to make as little money as possible so I am not seen as ‘enemy #1.’
    Why not make as much money as is humanly possible? That what I am trying to do. I see politics as an immovable force, and whether Republican or Democrat, I always seem to be the guy who pays. So I need a high gross in order to cover all the expenses. Remember, death and taxes–they will be here forever.
    Fight my natural propensity to create, produce, solve, invent, serve, improve the >world.
    Why would you do that?
    Bring my children up to believe that all humans are worthy of love (regardless of >social standing/wealth, skin color, etc).
    Excellent. Me too.
    Protect myself and my family from those who will use FORCE upon us for their envy >based agenda.
    This statement is too fraught w/ tension and ennui, and is therefore undecipherable, at least to me.
    Vote for liberty; even if it is a ‘lost vote’ (Ron Paul).
    Certainly your prerogative. Have at it.
    Dwell on the fact that just because a system exists or because a mob votes for a >morally/financially bankrupt system doesn’t make it right.
    That doesn’t sound very productive. Why dwell? Most of the people making oodles of money these days certainly have an opinion about politics–from one side or the other–but that doesn’t stop them from their prime directive: making money.
    Live a life where I do no harm, despite the harm done to me by others.
    Well, the first part I like. The second part is too vague and sounds like complaining to me.

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  17. Michael Anderson Avatar

    George asked: “Question for MichaelA – what is the common ground between the two ideologies so different as that described above with that of the market capitalism that conservaterians like me believe is the organizing (economic and social) basis for the greatest human advancement ever?”
    As I have said before many times, we are closer together than we care to think. I am a market capitalism kinda guy. I have no qualms with the market, or the relentless creative destruction in my industry, that complicate my economic decisions on a daily basis.
    We also agree that human advancement is the goal. If we just ratcheted down the strife a bit, I’ll bet we could make some real progress.

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  18. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    The reality of our economic system is right there in font of everyone’s face. Liberals just must be blind I guess. Small business is stifled. Big business is stifled. Why? Because when one looks at the rules it is simply in the best economic self interest to stay away from the rules. What does that mean? Do not hire a employee. Do not pass a income threshold. If you hire an employee you then become subject to thousands of rules like workman’s comp, unemployment insurance, withholding (becoming the government’s account and tax collector) and workplace postings and safety meetings and reporting sheets etc. etc. The income threshold is manipulated almost every year at all levels of government. The more you make (80 hour work weeks) the more they take. Now we have the tax break fight again today for Goodness sakes. There is no certainty for a business except they will be hammered if the hire people an make money past the threshold.
    So, Mikey is right. The proof is everywhere. Most businesses are family owned and operated so as to not alert the SS. Add to that the zoning rules, the city and county fees for being so kind as to risk your life savings trying to start and maintain a business and you can see the problem.
    I recall when I was married to a banking lady in the 70’s how the government forced banks (an I am sure other businesses) to hire only part time help because the bank was forced into a huge new set of rules if they kept people full time. That started the demise of benefits for the middle class help since the “rules” foisted on them by the government said part time help was exempt from their rules.
    If anyone does not think business adjusts to stay out of the limelight they are smoking the funny plant.

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  19. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    I maintain that a central bank is a bad concept (by design it enslaves, manipulates, destroys private property/personal liberty to line the pockets/power of the elite).
    There is great reason as to why Americans fought it’s existence pre-1913.

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  20. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    To Rebane’s 8:22 Point
    I hear this as hate speech (I am sure this gets a thumbs up from the progressives). Someone should show Obama the tax table above.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2012/jul/15/picketvideo-obama-if-youve-got-business-you-didnt-/

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  21. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    Michael A: in 2007 I paid more in income tax than I ever thought I would earn in a year. The more I researched (see chart above) and debated the immorality of an un-equitable tax structure the more frustrated I became. I was public enemy #1 just because I was successful. I immediately downsized my business (laid off employees) and quit marketing in a successful attempt to decrease my taxable income. Why the hell should I work 70 hour weeks to pay 50%+ of my reward in tax (15% SS/Med, 35% Fed, 9% State) to a wasteful/malfeasance/corrupt/special interest guided government?
    I can’t begin to describe the difficulty in fighting my natural inclination to produce/solve/invent/serve.

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  22. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA’s points are a study (in my view) of an ideology in tension, but not ennui. It is not clear whether he would oppose the government’s friction on, say, employment that has done so much to devastate the middle class as ToddJ’s 739am points out. It appears that on his measured road to socialism, MichaelA keeps looking over his shoulder wistfully, knowing deep inside that as capitalism recedes from his belief system, socialism will never be able to pay for the world of his dreams.
    Mickey’s “Live a life where I do no harm, despite the harm done to me by others.” is a fundamental tenet of Christian belief. However, to MichaelA it is “too vague and sounds like complaining”. Another important revelation.
    However, what concerns me most and also corroborates the coming Great Divide is MichaelA’s 1122pm in which he gives his best answer to my 1234pm ‘common ground’ question. His response is the, by now, well used response used by good-hearted and sincere liberals, it is a palliative delivered in a bed of pabulum of the kind most recently made famous by Rodney King, that paragon of social simplicity; it is again an answer that is no answer.
    So I repeat myself – where is the common ground between us (today’s progressives and free-market capitalists)?

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  23. Ryan Mount Avatar

    I’ve always had a big problem with the Progressive Tax system and the 14th Amendment. They don’t seem to jibe. Now I understand, but don’t necessarily agree with, the supporters arguments that those who make more “use more,” but it kinda seems to be the opposite using that reasoning: people who earn less, tend to actually consume more resources.
    But on a less abstract and more practical note, how does someone making $175,000 use more (whatever “more” is) than someone who makes $30,000? I think it’s a very specious argument. Isn’t it quite possible that someone making $175,000/year might actually use less? And what if that’s true? Why should they have to pay more based on this “they use more” argument. Again, that damn 14th Amendment that everyone, except me, seems to hate when it doesn’t fit their fiscal or moral agenda.
    For the record I have the same beef with Proposition 13; it’s unconstitutional.
    I think Mikey is right, BTW. But it doesn’t matter. What matters is mob rules to the supporters. American Idol meets public policy.

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  24. George Rebane Avatar

    MickeyMcD 1245pm – It would be a good idea if the hubris didn’t reach all the way from Sacramento to the Rood Center. Stupid is forever.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304388004577531293525264410.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLTopStories

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  25. billy T Avatar

    Good link, Dr. Rebane. Seems they need us more than we need them. Hmmm. At this rate, we the taxpayers, have to bailout the Cal-Pers to the tune of 226 gazillion. The retail sales numbers for the nation have dropped for 3 straight months. Our GDP a year ago was around 2.6% but has dropped to 1.9% as of June. THE ECONOMY HAS GOTTEN WORSE since last year. 31/2 years later, Obama owns this economy and this jobless recovery. And the libbowels want to focus on what Romney did at Bain Capital almost a decade ago and what Romney did at Bain Capital a decade ago. Last month more people filed for disability than got jobs. This is what Obama has done to the middle class. What Obama needs right now is about 3 more Zimmerman shootings to keep doing what he has been doing. Dr. Rebane’s link needs to be repeated: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-16/california-public-employee-pension-earns-1-on-investments-1-.html

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  26. Michael Anderson Avatar

    We seem to have wildly divergent definitions of socialism on this blog, to the point where the word is completely meaningless here. I know that George lived under a “socialist” system, so his definition carries more weight than say, Todd’s. However, I have read tremendously on the subject since reaching the age of sentience, so when I compare George’s version with the overwhelming evidence of others who have also lived under its iron fist, I am left with my first sentence.
    Here is a definition that reverberates more closely with my own reading and experience: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/11/opinion/obama-the-socialist-not-even-close.html?_r=1&hp

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  27. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Socialism meaningless here as defined? No, we all know what it is. I will easily bow to George’s life experience under communism so yes, he carries far more weight than I. But MichaelA, a true blue American why do you make light of something you have never experienced? Silver spooners don’t get it until it is too late. Your sentience must have been dazed.

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  28. Michael Anderson Avatar

    Todd, did you read the NYT article? If so, please address the author’s contention. Thanks.

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  29. Michael Anderson Avatar

    And please explain what you mean by “silver spooners.” Thanks.

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  30. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 545pm – the leftwing Gray Lady does its best to disguise Obama’s true colors; we would expect nothing less. However, the attribution of socialism and socialist requiring that the so attributed exhibits all the facets of socialism is naive. This has been extensively discussed in these pages. The first of these pieces started with definitions of socialism.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/07/who-is-a-socialist.html

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  31. Michael Anderson Avatar

    George, from your July 2010 link: “Socialism is a form of governance that seeks as its endgame the state ownership of the means of production and distribution which it executes through a centralized process of planning and control.”
    * If the doctors and insurance companies operating under PPACA are privately held, how does this possibly meet your definition? If you don’t like the regulations, ask your Congress-critter to change them. Regulations ain’t socialism.
    * President Obama told the General Motors bond holders they made a bad bet, which they did. For some reason, in your eyes the contracts held by GM bond holders are somehow more sacrosanct than the contracts held by public employee pensioners. [BTW, my inner libertarian says they are both worthless when push comes to shove, and their occasional abrogation will do little to poison capital markets, or employer/employee relations.]
    * What about the ~100-yr.-long monopoly that was enjoyed by AT&T? Or the long-time NBC/CBS/ABC hegemony in television? Or the radio monopoly enjoyed by RCA at the outset? Or the vertical integration of the big Hollywood studios from the 1930s to the 1960s? Were those all socialism? Under your definition they certainly seem to be: quasi-private companies doing the bidding of gov’t through “means of production and distribution which it executes through a centralized process of planning and control.”
    I use these examples to illustrate again that the definition here seems to be in the eye of the beholder.

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  32. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Hopeless. But delusional behavior is something we read and see from the left all the time. How else could anyone who sees Obamacare as still allowing private when it is government? Amazing.

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  33. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 849pm – I’m afraid you are blowing smoke with your examples. Citing the usual ‘we’re not completely socialistic yet’ is low grade ore in this debate. For over a century America has been been on and off the progressive road to autocratic collectivism, which always has a way station at socialism in its various forms. Trying to camouflage this chronicle with semantic pyrotechnics is both an expected and effective response – but not on these pages.
    Obama has been publicly celebrated for becoming our first socialist president by everyone from Hugo Chavez to mainstream Newsweek (“We are all socialists now.”). Socialist Europe was ecstatic when Obama did his victory lap there, until they began to discover that their own tits were in the socialist wringer big time.
    Socialism is like a metastasizing cancer that through great effort can be brought into remission, but never cured (‘The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.’) Ignorance is the ready handmaiden of socialism, and it is the easiest attribute for an electorate to embrace.

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  34. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    GM bondholders made a bad bet? For goodness sakes, GM sold those bonds to fund their business and it was deemed a good “risk” as it had been for a hundred years. If the company had BK’ed, the bondholders would have got ome of their money back. But to blow off their holding and then, as we see, GM lackey’s are now paying Obama back (politically and through the unions with cash donations) why doesn’t GM use their “profits” they are so proud of to pay back those bondholders? Oh, they are the 1% MichaelA is not enamored with perhaps?

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  35. Michael Anderson Avatar

    Wow. Talk about smoke.
    George, you didn’t answer the question. Was AT&T’s behavior socialism or not? I happen to believe that it was, and still is as a matter of fact.
    Do you also deride AT&T as you do PPACA? I’m just trying to get clarity so we can continue the discussion.

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  36. Michael Anderson Avatar

    The guy in the NYT article, who lived under totalitarian socialism from 1932 until 1968, successfully explains how European socialism is different.
    Socialism and capitalism are both important organs in the body politic. Each has its place. Do we open up utilities to the market? Yeah, there’s a good idea, let’s have lots of different companies running natural gas pipelines to everyone’s house!
    And yet in telecommunications, that is actually turning out to be a good idea. Let’s run different data pipes to people’s houses, because the old statist ones are defunct. A successful use of the market.
    This stuff is complex. Labeling European-style socialism as a cancer is simplistic, bombastic, and wrong.

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  37. Ben Emery Avatar

    Michael,
    Ask for a definition of socialism or communism and you will only hear crickets on RR. I have asked on these pages, to use a Rebane phrase, a number of times and have never gotten a single response.
    I have a next sentence prepared but won’t divulge it until later. It will be dated and time tagged.

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  38. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Why don’t you two tell us what you think its definition is? Give us some countries utilizing it today so we can get a handle on your definition in practice.

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  39. Ben Emery Avatar

    Wow, it took one comment for me to reveal what was going to be my next sentence in last nights comment.
    “AANNDD here comes the challenge from Todd or Mickey for me to define it. 9:55 Monday July 16, 2012”

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  40. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Why is McDonalds (and countless other companies) exempt from good chunks of the PPACA? Socialism? or Cronyism? Why aren’t Democrats [really] pissed off about that? Hypocrites.
    I think you folks have your terms crossed. We are much closer to crony Capitalism than traditional Socialism. However, I would go out on a limb here and suggest that crony Capitalism is a form of Socialism, or closer to…wait for it…fascism. I am far more worried about the rise of the latter than Socialism which just is gonna cost me more money.
    But the thing is, those who are benefiting from this disgusting version of cronyism are the first ones to complain about Socialism. More for me, less for you. Conservatives on this blog are largely Main Street Conservatives, whom I have a great deal of respect for.

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  41. Gregory Avatar

    George, I beg your indulgence here.
    Since “TomKenworth”, aka Doug Keachie, came out of the sock drawer here a few days ago (2nw from the top) and last posted two days ago on this thread, I thought it would be worth mentioning the apparent reason why he’s taking a breather.
    He wrote a complete falsehood about himself and me on “Earl” Crabb’s blog, and the cartoon at the head of the line is worth a visit:
    http://www.rlcrabb.com/general/paying-for-progress/
    Let me summarize:
    1) Ben Emery posted a holy-than-thou (my interpretation) thought regarding 4th amendment issues.
    2) My retort involved mentioning meeting Ron Paul at Timothy Leary’s house in ’88 and one of the big issues of both (and, by implication, Libertarians) was privacy, and Ben’s greens are a bit late to that game.
    3) Keachie then wrote, “Funny, Greg, I recall privacy rights being front and center the day in 1988 that Ron Paul had a fund raiser at Dr. Timothy Leary’s house in the Santa Cruz area. Nobody else on this list made Santa Cruz, except Tom Kenworth, who has the photos to prove it. Original post above shows ego schmego, in full bloom.”
    4) Steve Frisch, piling on, wrote “Doug, are you saying “Tom Kenworth” was at the same famed Ron Paul/Timothy Leary event and Greg was not there?” which is, of course, exactly what the above claimed.
    Unfortunately, Leary was living above Beverly Hills at the time, off Benedict Canyon Road. Keach did what he often does, make up something that he thinks fits the facts and pawn it off as truth. Ooops.
    I’ve found a couple of citations backing my version, one in the Washington Post, another from Debra Saunders, columnist in the Chronicle. Probably not Keachie’s favorite:
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/12/22/ron_paul_turn_on_tune_in_drop_out_112495.html
    (Obviously not a Paul fan, but then Paul isn’t a conservative and does have a history of going a bridge too far…)
    Yes, dear Friends, Doug Keachie intentionally told a howler of a falsehood in order to damage my credibility in a blog. Literally a libel, some would say a slander, in any case a defamation. This isn’t the first time (it wasn’t even the first libel in that thread), but is is the easiest one to show.
    Doug, this is your cue to make a heartfelt retraction and apology here and at RLC’s. It’s time to stop your harassments in the name of your self appointed mission to be my “nemesis”.

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  42. George Rebane Avatar

    Re BenE’s 958pm – Will someone with better contact info advise BenE to see an optometrist or a reading skills instructor. RR is one of the few places in the blogosphere where the author is lavish in giving (operational) definitions of terms and concepts he uses. But that same author (watashi wa) has limited tolerance for naifs who demand that everything be repeated in every post to assuage their short attention spans and limited purview of the record.
    Mr Emery may see if the crickets are still singing in the link provided in my 811pm.

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  43. Ben Emery Avatar

    Ryan,
    Crony Capitalism is Corporatism or defacto Fascism. We are talking about the total opposite end of the political spectrum. What has happened over the last 30 years of failed policy is the shredding of the private sector part of the social compact with America. Paying workers wages that allowed them to buy the goods they were making and to live a decent standard of living (health care, mortgage, retirement, higher education for children). As wages remained stagnant the cost of living has skyrocketed and the American worker can no longer afford to live this decent standard of living and the politicians continue to increase programs to make up for their lack of political will to cut into the profits of big business out of fear of losing the funding or even worse becoming the targets of that same funding.

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  44. Ryan Mount Avatar

    I understand that Ben. I’m trying to reach out to the other side here. I don’t need to reach out to you.
    Socialism for corporations, in it’s pure sense is fascism. You also need elements populism; you need to convince people that giving money to a large corporation, exempting them from regulations or having them write the laws is good for us. We seem to have all of that with Obama.

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  45. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 941pm – thank you for raising the ATT issue wrt to America’s socialism. I want to cover that in a more comprehensive post.
    For now I’ll say that, yes, there is a benefit for government to create temporary environments for newly discovered gadgets and services that would be of obvious benefit to its citizens. The US has done so in general with its Patents & Trademarks Office, and in particular by granting monopoly franchises to enterprises that have, for example, provided communications and transportation services.
    For large infrastructure projects, such temporary environments are required to reduce risk and attract investment to launch the commercial enterprises. Unfortunately, it is what happens after successful launch that becomes the travesty known as crony capitalism. (I define ‘crony socialism’ when government is the money investor.) It is crony capitalism that caused America to have one of the most backward phone systems in the developed world when it was finally time to break up ATT and allow everyone to provide technology, equipment, services, … .
    Now to your “This stuff is complex. Labeling European-style socialism as a cancer is simplistic, bombastic, and wrong.”
    Here is where we totally disagree. As a form of collectivism, socialism is an unsustainable and transitory form of governance, as every country in its deepening embrace has discovered and/or is discovering now. It is a progressive cancer in every sense of the word. Its level of success is inversely related to the size of the population on which it is imposed (e.g. it’s best practiced at the family level).

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  46. Ryan Mount Avatar

    Crony socialism, crony capitalism. George, Ben respectively…there you go. Common ground.
    Where you two might disagree is on the scope and breadth of government, although I’m pretty sure Ben is suspicious of our current apparatus and would prefer de-centralizing elements of our government and returning some control to the communities.
    Ben? Did I get that right?

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  47. Gregory Avatar

    “Socialism for corporations, in it’s pure sense is fascism”
    No, the two are almost totally unrelated except in the minds of those who think communism is is left wing and fascism is somehow right wing.
    “Socialism for corporations” is related more to PJ O’Rourk’s observation, ‘When buying and selling is controlled by legislation, the first things to get bought and sold are legislators’, It matters little whether the legislators are on the left or the right.

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  48. Ben Emery Avatar

    Greg,
    You most definitely got that right, which I think would be more common ground. I want to decentralize power at all levels and all sectors to bring more accountability and more power to the people.

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  49. Ben Emery Avatar

    oops- I was looking at Ryan’s comment and thinking it came from Greg. You most definitely got that right Ryan. Here is where I think progressive/ conservative left/ right can come together but the problem becomes I think from the left side of the equation is trusting states and local governments. If I were a person of color I wouldn’t trust local and state governments to secure my rights or tend to my needs. That being said the best way is empower people is by bringing policy making that affects our lives closest to where we live.

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