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April 2012
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George Rebane

The shooting of Trayvor Martin has raised a fundamental rights issue that most of us have for long thought was a done deal in a free society – namely, whether a law-abiding citizen is still allowed to defend himself with deadly force should he be the victim of an attack that may leave him dead or maimed.

MuggingBefore the progressive assault on the law abiding and victim, there was no question that such a permission was a fundamental right of a free citizen.  It is ensconced in the Bastiat Triangle (q.v.) and was interpreted as such by our Founders.  Until recently, ‘stand your ground’ SYG was not even called out per se in our legal codes – it was naturally assumed to be the right and the proper thing to do when criminally assaulted.

Today things are different, and should you find yourself having your brains battered out or about to be stabbed, your instincts to defend are subject to severe post mortem scrutiny by our justice system should you prevail in your defense and in the process the assailant is killed, injured, or suffers some other form of inconvenience.  Amazingly, the first question the victim is supposed to correctly answer is ‘could you have followed some other course than put yourself at the mercy of your alleged assailant?’  In short, justify that you had to be there and then when the low life decided to make his move on you.


Answering that you didn’t know that the low life would be there and stalking, is no longer an automatically acceptable answer.  The legal shyster (aka defense counsel or prosecutor) will then ask whether a ‘reasonable person’ would have known, with the clear implication that, YES a reasonable person would have known and would therefore not made himself an attractive nuisance to such low lives.  The further implication here being that YOU were the one not acting reasonably.  Instead, you thoughtlessly (or intending to entrap?) became an attractive nuisance for such encounters which could easily turn into an assault.  In short, you brought it on to yourself, and now another low life is dead, in the hospital, or emotionally stressed beyond consoling.

But if the victim successfully manages to survive this legal maze of questions, the interrogation proceeds to whether you could have successfully escaped after the assault began.  The implication being that again a reasonable law-abiding person would have seen an available escape and taken advantage of it, thereby obviating the entire SYG issue and defusing the assault-in-progress before anyone got hurt.  The victim’s response, that perhaps he was then not in a position to perform a deliberate search for alternatives and go through a decision process as to which would be the most beneficial for the low life, is guaranteed to escape the nuanced thinking of the interrogating legal beagle.  Again the victim will be painted as having defended ground that should have been relinquished.  That you were scared beyond measure, by the low life who threatened your life or was already in the process of taking it, is swept aside in such proceedings, and most certainly by the lamestream pros covering the case.
 
Speaking of the lamestream, God help you if there’s a hint of ‘race’ involved the encounter.  The whole situation sells a lot more advertizing and satisfies a whole host of established ideology if the victim can be painted, even if with just a hint, as a racist thereby making the whole thing a candidate for, yes, a hate crime.  And, of course, the victim is the putative criminal who three generations ago had an uncle in the KKK.  However, if it happened to be one of the uncounted assaults and murders that the minorities perpetrate on each other every day, then no one gives a crap.  And so it goes today.

My own feelings on the SYG matter is that once the assault has started, the victim has the right to do anything to the assailant that will increase the victim’s perceived odds of not being murdered or maimed during the assault.

There, I’ve broached the inclusion of uncertainty and how it must be considered in choosing a response that, in the mind of the victim, maximizes the probability of his survival (the ‘odds’ favoring an event happening is calculated by dividing the probability that the event happens by its complement, the probability that it will not happen).  Therefore if during the stress and excitement of an assault, the victim has the presence of mind to consider the alternatives of attempting to flee or using counterforce (deadly or otherwise), and he chooses counterforce, that is his right and prerogative.  The assailant’s rights were taken out of the equation the moment he initiated the assault.

If the victim has available deadly counterforce, then clearly the proper choice would be to use it since that increases the victim’s odds of surviving (murder or maiming).  Choosing to flee – presenting your back to one who, perhaps, is much more fleet of foot, and who already has threatened your life – raises the question of how likely to succeed would such an attempt be, given the contingencies of the situation.  And again, that assessment remains the prerogative of the victim, and not that of a post hoc smart-mouthed lawyer.

In the universe I live in, all critters from a gnat to a nobelist are evolved Bayesians.  They and their long line of ancestors learned to exercise their hard-wired Bayes rule decision makers eons ago.  Granted, they did not compute out the probabilities to the third decimal place, or maybe even to the units level, but they got it close enough, and often enough that here we all are.

Thoughts?

Posted in , ,

118 responses to “Stand Your Ground – Some Thoughts”

  1. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    “You’ve been watching too much tv. When you are sitting or standing, a wound’s oozing blood flows downwards. Physics 1A.”
    When you are prone on a concrete walkway, the back of your head is not vertical.

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  2. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Humans have murdered each other since the cave. Mass killings have happened since the cave. For some reason humans have a propensity for death and murder. Usually for land or gold. Cannae, see here
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae
    came to mind. Hannibal slaughtered a gazillion Romans because he could. He did it with swords, up close and personal in 216 BC. He did this a few more times. He did mass killings without a 9mm.
    Trayvon Martin was part of this tragedy. A jury will need to sort it out.

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  3. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    If you look at this video, you can see that the concrete in question is a pathway between two rows of buildings/apartments, and that is is nowhere near any roadway with a parked car. http://thepoliticalcarnival.net/2012/04/20/video-new-photos-of-george-zimmermans-head-wound-released-mildly-graphi/
    Again, why no front of face image taken at the same time, 3 minutes supposedly after death shot (that data can be very easily manipulated, and may have been, in this case see TPIC: http://www.iptc.org/cms/site/index.html?channel=CH0099 Pictures could have been taken much later, and the data changed, as PD video does not appear to show that level of damage a short time later.

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  4. George Rebane Avatar

    Oh my. Let me propose that our own DougK has discovered a suspected conspiracy by the local law enforcement agency in the way they took and released photos of Zimmerman. Additionally, can we not stipulate that until the jury returns a different verdict, that we all just find Zimmerman guilty of Murder One – the sumbich clearly set the whole thing up.
    With that under our belts, maybe some of the SYG discussion can have a chance, or at least more of a chance than this proposal has.

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  5. Gregory Avatar

    “When you are prone on a concrete walkway, the back of your head is not vertical.”
    Keach, the photo was taken a couple minutes after he got up.
    “looks like the lawyer quashed that one”
    The leaks haven’t been from Zimmerman or his lawyer.
    Keach, give it a rest. You’re just making stuff up, again. Wait for the trial, if it happens.
    Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised if Zimmerman isn’t lynched, given the emotions whipped up by the usual suspects. Whether or not that happens, I’ll also not be surprised if Zimmerman or possibly his future widow sues NBC over the doctored 911 audio they aired as if it was news, and all the other false news broadcast as the issue escalated and the mentally infirm (like Keachie) started seeing red.

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  6. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    OK, so let’s see how far from George Zimmerman’s initial 911 call to the death scene things really are. To save you the viewing, Greg, it’s kinda like someone on at the Rood Center chasing someone to Hirshman’s pond. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUqUGJ9a3yk

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  7. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    According to the lady who listened to the encounter, live, in her backyard, the help help help stopped when the gun went off.

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  8. Gregory Avatar

    George, I think one tenet of standing your ground has to be that, if you are armed, you have a special responsibility to not go looking for trouble, lest you find it.
    I was chatting with one friend of mine, who, when the event occurred, was carrying concealed legally due to his position with CalFire. A guy who took great exception to his driving a car that was dog slow ended up following him to a local parking lot, and the guy did his best to provoke a fight. My friend just rolled with the rhetorical punches and went into the supermarket, not wanting to have to shoot the asshole.
    The guy later made the local papers as a major meth supplier as he was arrested and jailed, which is how we came to be discussing him.
    I believe the gun types call the situation ‘I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6’. Zimmerman has found out just how big a life changer being judged by 12 can be.

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  9. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Greg, you are now crossing the line, and the “mentally infirm” may indeed get a lawyer himself this time, or should I just declare you to be equally like the mentally infirm of whom you have just written, and call it even?

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  10. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    I have a recollection of a video of some little fellow picking on a bigger fellow in some middle school back east. The big fellow was a kind, peaceful boy and the little fellow was a jerk who knew the big fellow would not fight back but run. Well, someone was using their cell video on the little fellow picking on the big fellow for the umpteenth time and all of a sudden the big fellow snapped and SYG. He kicked the little fellows ass. He did not get pickewd on again.

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  11. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Todd, and the connection here? are you saying that if Trayvon had been allowed to beat up an unarmed Zimmerman, then maybe Zimmerman would go back to minding his own business?

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  12. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 245pm – I fully agree with the policy that if armed, one should not go looking for SYG situations (they’re easy enough to find), and, instead, one should do everything possible to avoid having to draw his weapon. As taught in CCW classes, not matter what the circumstances, drawing your weapon will be a life changing experience. My own feeling is that if you know that with high likelihood you can prevail as the victim of an incipient assault, then you should make an extra effort to peacefully disengage.
    Years ago in soCal our entire family studied karate and were members of a JKA dojo, there such avoidance behavior was always lesson one. And any student who gave even a hint of studying karate for the purpose of gratuitously having the opportunity to pound someone into the ground was immediately asked never to darken the door again. The law is equally harsh on certificated martial arts students.
    We have always found people involved in shooting and martial arts activities to be courteous, polite, helpful, and friendly (and even deferential).

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  13. Gregory Avatar

    Todd, how many duck hunters would there be if every 20th bird could shoot back?
    The reflexive Zimmerman bashers seem to think that if someone is only using fists, all an armed person should be allowed in defense is their own fists. That is not the case under the law.
    A sad case, many ruined lives. Let’s hope the body count stays at one.

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  14. Brad Croul Avatar

    GeorgeR – 1122am – On several different occasions I have heard of a person being punched, knocked out, then falling backward onto the sidewalk and dying from the punch/sidewalk concussion.
    So, if some young punk comes up to me and glares at me and his fists are all balled up, I should just shoot him because I am in danger of being knocked down and hitting my head? According to your definition, I am in danger of being maimed or killed.
    I am pretty sure it is true that Zimmerman called 911 and he was not in any danger at the time. Whatever happened after that is for the court to decide.
    If some punk is walking through my yard at night should I chase him down, corner him, and when he charges me, shoot him?
    I think not.
    I think most of the concealed carry types are wannabe cowboys. Most gun owners leave their guns at home. If you come across someone with their gun pointed at you, it is pretty much too late for you to get the upper hand – even if you spend your free time practicing your quick draw.
    At some point you have to decide if you are the agressor, even if someone else started the confrontation.
    The whole SYG thing sounds like a lot of macho posturing. Run Fu is sometimes better than Kung Fu, especially if your opponent has a gun in his hand and you don’t.

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  15. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Greg proves he can’t read maps.

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  16. Gregory Avatar

    Keach, you’re running on less than hearsay evidence. Call it “Keachie dream” evidence.

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  17. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Nope, instead, I’m Greg’s worst nightmare. You park at the Rood Center and walk to Hirschmans, some car follows you, you walk faster and leave the Hirschmans parking lot and on around the lake. The dude parks, gets out of his car, is still following you, and you are armed with skittles, iced tea, and a cell phone. He then shoots you on a rainy dark night, scrapes his head against a nearby tree, and claims you attacked him, good luck and bon voyage, Goodknight. Hirschmann would at least yield a good granite rock, but that back area commons was nothing but grass, nothing for Trayvon to defend himself against a gun.

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  18. Gregory Avatar

    Looks like a psychotic break in the making.

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  19. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    I’m truly amazed at the number of folks that have fabricated the reality of what happened in the Z/M case. Some sort of mystical film was taken of the whole thing and was secretly shown to a select few. Could we just possibly stick with absolute known facts here? The rest is all conjecture and bias. I find very few here willing to talk about what would happen if they were carrying a gun and were threatened with violence. Some seem to be thinking the law is not a good idea, but it’s hard to tell. We do not know what happened when Zimmerman made contact with Martin. We do not know what was said or who was the aggressor at that point. Maybe everyone (starting with President “I don’t know what happened, but if it helps my re-election, I’m happy to pour gasoline on the fire” O’Blabber) can all just calm down and wait for the justice system to have it’s course.

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  20. Gregory Avatar

    “So, if some young punk comes up to me and glares at me and his fists are all balled up, I should just shoot him because I am in danger of being knocked down and hitting my head? According to your definition, I am in danger of being maimed or killed.”
    If you have a deadly weapon in your hands and someone advances on you in obvious anger knowing you have the weapon, yes, my understanding is that, with a stand your ground law (and even in California, IIRC you have a right to stand your ground in your home,, including temporary residences like travel trailers and rented lodging) you have a right to self defense that includes pulling the trigger. If you don’t pull out the weapon until after the attack continues, you also have the right if a reasonable person would think you are being threatened with great bodily harm.
    Then you may be faced with that “being judged by 12” situation.

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  21. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    We do know where Zimmerman was told to back off, about 200 yards away, and that was after Zimmerman says he had already been tracking Trayvon. We do have an ear witness from less than 60 feet away who says the cries of “help, help, help” ceased at the instant of the gun shot, see the video above, we do know that the site of the shooting was at least 50 yards from the nearest roadway, in a large open area with a concrete pathway with no curbs, surrounded by grass. Do you dispute any of this? Which of these are not absolute known facts?
    “I find very few here willing to talk about what would happen if they were carrying a gun and were threatened with violence. ”
    and I find very few here who will recognized that Zimmerman went looking for trouble, which is what we are looking at here. When he couldn’t find a wrong doing, he apparent provoked one, or just killed in cold blood, see earlier comments of mine about invading Trayvon’s personal space.

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  22. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Scott and the conservatives seem to want to wait for the jury. The libs want to hang Zimmerman right now. Yep, those social liberals, those compassionate folks.
    It looks like BradC has never been mugged. I ws robbed at gunpoint once, not much fun.

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  23. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    BTW, interesting that the graphic chosen by George to head this article would clearly indicate that Zimmerman was the aggressor, what with Trayvon shown with hands in the air and Zimmerman holding the gun. Maybe George’s unconscious is trying to tell him something.

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  24. Gregory Avatar

    “We do know where Zimmerman was told to back off”
    We don’t know a damned thing. The facts will be established in court and judged by a jury.

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  25. billy T Avatar

    Todd, yes I remember that little kid delighting in punching the big kid repeatedly cause the big kid never fought back. The bully was so cocky he had is groupies stand around with camera and waiting to show everybody what a puss the big gentle giant was. The kid hit the big kid in the face several times with a fist. The gentle kid tried to swat away the punches. If memory serves me correctly, the gentle giant merely picked up the aggressor and threw him down on the concrete head first. Don’t think the big kid ever threw a punch, lol. As far a written human history is concerned, the first man born on the planet was Cain. He promptly murdered his brother. Guess we have not improved beyond that. I have zero training or schooling in human behavior. But I always look at human nature first because human nature has not changed or will not change despite what the warm and fuzzy folks long for. Human nature is the unmentioned flaw in many a social program and every unintended outcome that comes down the pike. Usually it is pride and everything flows from that.

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  26. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Home invasions are not even absolute protection for your right to shoot and kill. Remember this case from October 2007, and Ferguson’s remarks? I do. Assistant D.A. Anna Ferguson said Tuesday that until investigators know more, she is not comfortable announcing that theft of pot plants was the motivation.
    “It could have been many different things,” Ferguson said. “There are so many possible scenarios – debts, a gang could be involved. People shoot each other over cheating.”
    Police found nine pot plants at the scene, Evans said. Police have been called out to Beck’s property in the past for reports of attempted theft of marijuana, investigators said at the scene Sunday morning.
    Shelton was pronounced dead at the scene.
    Beck is recovering from three gunshot wounds, one to his abdomen and one to each leg, at Sutter Roseville Medical Center, according to a family member. Beck was in serious condition Tuesday, hospital spokeswoman Robin Montgomery said.
    Police found evidence of three guns at the scene – the shotgun used by Beck, the AR-15 assault rifle used by Shelton and a .22 caliber rifle or gun, Evans said. Beck’s wounds were inflicted with bullets from a .22 caliber gun, Evans said.
    “That’s probably why he’s still alive,” he said.
    At least one other suspect fled the scene, investigators said.
    If an accomplice is captured by police, he or she could be charged with Shelton’s killing, Ferguson said. A co-conspirator can be charged with murder if anyone – an intended victim or not – is killed during the commission of a felony.
    “It’s the felony-murder rule,” she said. “Because they came onto the property with guns, it was foreseeable someone could be killed. Even though the pot grower was able to shoot, the intruder could possibly be charged.”
    Ferguson also anticipated possible misconceptions people might have about home invasion and the law: If a person’s home is being invaded, she said, that does not give him the right to kill a burglar or trespasser.
    However, if it is proved that a deadly weapon was being brandished at a victim, she said, then killing may be legally justified.
    “It does appear that the use of deadly force was justified in this case,” she added.
    Sheriff’s investigators served a search warrant at Shelton’s Yuba County home late Monday to gain more information about the other person or people who fled the scene of Saturday’s shooting, Evans said.

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  27. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Greg, the 911 tape establishes the location of Zimmerman, in front of the clubhouse, quite nicely. If you wish to state that Zimmerman was unable to accurately tell the 911 operator where he was inside his own neighborhood, then we can pretty much discount EVERYTHING Zimmerman has had to say. Which way would you like it? You can’t have it both ways. I love it when you’ve suddenly begun to realize that you are Wylie coyote, and you’ve been backed up to the thin air beyond the cliff’s edge…..
    “BEEP, BEEP!”

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  28. Earl Crabb Avatar

    This conversation is really pissing me off. I want to shoot everyone.*
    (*I’m just kidding. Don’t call 911.)
    Nobody has addressed my observation about 800 comments ago that a safer option might be to arm everyone with pepper spray. I’m not saying it’s a perfect defense, but it seems to me a better option in many situations.

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  29. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Wasp spray apparently works well too, except against right angling wood boring bumble bees that maneuver like those synchronous robots. They are so dang fast! “bEEP Beep!” Drive my dogs nuts.

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  30. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    When do we get to shoot China”
    “China had a trade surplus of 14.5 billion euros with Germany last year, but German firms have proven much more successful than their European peers in entering the Chinese market.
    Germany produces the high-quality machinery and equipment that Chinese companies need to manufacture their goods, many of which end up back in Germany. China is a giant market for German cars, while Chinese exports to Germany include textiles, electrical goods and toys.
    Wen is due later on Monday to sign a deal with German carmaker Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) for the building of a new factory in Xinjiang province in western China.
    “The world is open. We all profit from open markets, not closed markets,” Rainer Langelueddecke, head of the Association of German Tool Manufacturers, told Reuters in Hannover, noting that more Chinese firms were also setting up shop in Germany.
    But not all German businessmen take such a sanguine view. Some expressed concern during Wen’s two-day visit that China is not only a crucial partner – and the destination of 7 percent of total German exports – but also an increasingly effective competitor that is moving up the value chain.
    “Chinese manufacturers may become more and more competitive and become more challenging for German companies,” said Thomas Schrader, managing director of Air Handling Technology, adding that China was now a bigger market for German mechanical engineering products than the United States.
    German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who led a large business delegation to Beijing in February, also commented during Wen’s visit on the speed of China’s emergence as a major industrial power and said Germany should not rest on its laurels.
    German businessmen and politicians have expressed concern over the lack of a level playing field in trade with China – including state support for Chinese exporters – as well as about intellectual property theft and other legal issues.”

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  31. billy T Avatar

    My my. This one case is making so many waves. Glad nobody here is silly enough to play the race card as the press first did when this story went national. To quote one of my favorite writers: “There are two groups that see everything through the prism of race. Liberals and skinheads.” I know liberals think all gun rights are bad, wrong, evil. If you all must discuss this particular shooting, then knock yourselves out. Remember one things: Florida law is not California law so quit comparing self defense in CA with FLA.

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  32. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    “Remember one things: Florida law is not California law so quit comparing self defense in CA with FLA.” You need to remind Greg, not me.

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  33. George Rebane Avatar

    BradC 355pm – Sorry to hear you conclude that “The whole SYG thing sounds like a lot of macho posturing.” The rest of the nation takes the issue very seriously, whether pro or con of the new SYG state laws that have been passed. I also wasn’t sure of your own take on the scenarios you fashioned, seemingly out of whole cloth. But I do appreciate that you didn’t join in the DougK ‘let’s hang him and then give him a fair trial’ parade.

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  34. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Let’s see, how much of the Pot Patch Pirates car chase did your doubt ever happened, until it was all settled in court, George? Did you doubt the whole thing? Did you think there was a possibilities the CHP wrapped a car around a tree with a dead body, just to fake everyone out? Basic simple easy to establish facts you pretty much accept ahead of trial, now don’t you? Of course if there’s a possibility that it might cast negative aspersions upon the Constitutional act of gun totin’, THEN you want to wait until ALL the evidence is in and properly adjudicateed, and if your side loses, THEN you want to wait until it’s gone through the appeals process, and a final THEN, even if the Supreme Court rules against you, THEN it is those danged activist judges appointed by you know who.
    Selective application of “wait until it is all in and tried” to deny the validity of looking at what is basically known, is really rather juvenile. Next you’ll be saying that Zimmerman didn’t really pull the trigger and that there was a 2nd shooter on the grassy knoll.
    On the pot patch pirates, since I arrive on scene very fortunately 20 minutes too late (20 minutes earlier and I would have been part of the collateral damage, pulling out onto 49 just above Peterson’s Corner), I kinda didn’t doubt that somebody sure smacked that tree.

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  35. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    I’m all in favor of giving him a fair trial. That’s more than he gave Trayvon.

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  36. Paul Emery Avatar

    RE George 10:46
    How do you categorize the mass murder of Native Americans in California between 1850 and 1910 when there was a bounty paid per scalp. Also the hundreds of lynchings by the KKK and other groups. Mass murder? Sure. How about the The Ludlow Massacre where women and children were slain buy a rampaging National Guard. Mass murder? You bet!1
    Yes, those were the good old days.

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  37. billy T Avatar

    I think the last lynching in the USA was Clarence Thomas in front of the Senate. Or maybe it was Oprah Winfrey when the Texas cattlemen sued her and she claimed she was being lynched by the beef sellers. I like beef and take pride knowing my food poops on vegetarians’ food. Priceless.

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  38. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 709pm – Yes, those were atrocities indeed. And we can walk back through all recorded histories to biblical times to dig them out. But by sheer numbers, they were lost in the noise when the 20th century totals were added up as cited many times in these pages – 120 million non-war government killings of their own people which figure does not include those murdered my Mao during his ‘Cultural Revolution’. That number is still incomplete and being constructed by historians and demographers; it promises to double the already toted number of deaths. And of that sum ‘only’ about 860,000 were killed by governments of free or non-collectivist countries.
    DougK 640pm – You again put a lot of words in my mouth with that one. Does such prescience come from the same jar as that which lets you render verdicts from a perusal of media mangled evidence?

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  39. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    When I was robbed at gunpoint it was by a black fellow. He was never caught for that crime. I guess I should have cried racism according to the left.

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  40. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, young black men are nowadays killing more young black men than the Klan ever dreamed of, but black on black doesn’t make headlines. In fact, if the Klan knew what a welfare state would do to Blacks in this country, they probably would have all gone social democrat long before it became fashionable.
    Now, we have a infamous case of a young latino Jew being referred to as a White latino in order to make it a white on black killing, despite the fact that none of Zimmerman’s grandparents would have been “white enough” to have had a chance in Hell to join any exclusive East coast country club.
    Earl, tell you what, let’s have a Gedankenexperiment duel. You can have pepper spray, I’ll choose a projectile weapon. How do you think it will turn out? There’s no barrier against law abiding adults keeping and bearing pepper spray now, so if it makes you feel better, get a can.
    Let’s remind Keachie… California does have Stand Your Ground, within your home, and The Union story he linked was a perfect example of that. In fact, I’ve had a family friend cop tell us that if you shoot someone coming through your window, be sure to drag them all the way in before police arrive to make the report easier to write.

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  41. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    I was commenting on the fact that few are willing to stick with George’s topic and the good Prof Keachie quotes me and then complains that he can’t find anyone to agree with him. “he apparent provoked one, or just killed in cold blood” Any proof Doug, or is this another post-modern free thought “feeling” that came through the floorboards?
    Apparently we’re off the rails on this one and high balling through the weeds. Ah well, I’ll read the comments for fun.

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  42. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Greg, you missed the part where she qualified it. “Ferguson also anticipated possible misconceptions people might have about home invasion and the law: If a person’s home is being invaded, she said, that does not give him the right to kill a burglar or trespasser.
    However, if it is proved that a deadly weapon was being brandished at a victim, she said, then killing may be legally justified.
    “It does appear that the use of deadly force was justified in this case,” she added.”
    “then killing MAY be legally justified. She also was active in The Union on this issue, and made it very clear that just because someone is on your property, you can’t just waste them. Two intruders, both armed, three shots into the homeowner, and it only MAY be justified??? It’s certainly upped my interest in early detection and dissuasion, by non lethal means. Just discovered new dog likes to hang near where the brightness light is, so the one near the bedroom window is being doused in favor of one further away, closer to the main gate and garden area.
    Minorities are not a united front. Poles and Italians often had strong ethnic hatreds, and committed unspeakable acts towards one another, just based on ethnicity, among other groups, as recently as 80 years ago. Go to your local HS, and see who hangs with whom, in any urban district, with mixed enrollment. Color lines are often still there, and it is not just a black and white thing. Asians hang with Asians, etc., sometime even among the high achievers. Zimmerman could well harbor racist sentiments, which might have been a factor in him getting out of the car to track down where Trayvon was headed. Too bad he didn’t just follow at a distance, and discover that Trayvon had a welcome mat out for him. Seems to indicate that he did indeed catch up with Trayvon, and maybe he thought Trayvon’s purchases were loot from some heist, who knows, but if you go back to Greg’s earliest posts here on this topic, you’ll see that Greg was willing to enter into speculation on other fuzzy facts. If not, why did he even bring them up?

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  43. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    So George, what evidence so far do you believe about the Trayvon Zimmerman case? Any of it? That’s the best way to clear out any words that may have found their way to your (and Greg’s) mouths, You both seem to be saying, “wait and see, but by golly maybe Zimmerman is telling the truthiness about it all, and anyone who says otherwise is jumping the gun.” Let’s hear you say that Zimmerman may also be a lying cowardly SOB who instigated it all, and THEN maybe I’ll believe the sincerity of your first statement. Just because Zimmerman is alive and can talk, that does not make his testimony true, especially when he has so much to lose. Not as much as Trayvon lost, however…

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  44. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Scott, nobody other than me has noticed that Trayvon “stood his ground” and is dead for it. Nobody wants to carefully out line just how much “ground” you own when out in public, a topic I have brought up. Not my fault the rest of you really have nothing to say other than “shoot first, ask questions later.”

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  45. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK 916pm – I have made no presumptive statements about the guilt or innocence of Zimmerman. The case may turn out to be just as you have been trumpeting, the sumbich started it all and is guilty of a wanton, or at least clumsy killing.
    SYG does not depend on ‘owning’ a certain amount of real estate when out in public. It does depend on the degree of danger perceived by the victim of an assault. I have attempted to open the discussion with this, and now discover that the notion is not as accessible as I had thought, as witnessed by all the outlier scenarios presented here.
    Let’s take the easy case first. Person A (Andy) is assaulted by Person B (Ben), a nearby security video records the whole thing. And Andy first discovers Ben’s presence when the assault is launched. However it proceeds, Andy is in reasonable fear of his life or limb in Ben’s hands. Take the case where escape is already impossible – Ben has Andy by the throat, or on the ground, or against the wall, or … . Can Andy use deadly force to protect himself?
    Given an answer to this, we can back off and introduce the possibility of an attempt to escape. Must Andy expose himself to the heightened danger of attempting to escape if he can use effective (including deadly) counter force against Ben? In other words, in this situation is Andy obligated by law to put himself in greater danger if he can avoid it?
    We can discuss SYG in such a stepwise fashion in which Andy the victim is presented with more alternatives both before the assault and after it commences. Jumping into some specific complex scenario, putting words into everyone’s mouth, and presenting your unerring conclusion has not gotten us very far. And going back and forth about what is (not) known about the Z/M case makes the discussion impossible to follow.

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  46. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    OK so we go abstract, but I will still reference additional thoughts along the way. If the use of a gun to a vital part of the body is the only option open to Andy, then he shoots and kills, in self defense, and goes free. If there is any chance he can merely wound the assailant, has more wiggle room, and instead shoots with intent to kill, then he is not going scott free. If he has a gun, he should have been trained to avoid getting in such places in the first place (Heinlein Rule #1 for survival), and he should also be aware of taking a risk, and be on heighten alert for problems, thus allowing for two things: Being able to land a non lethal shot, and having the element of surprise. The presumably unarmed assailant is going to be in shock of awareness that the victim has a gun, after the first shot, if not physical shock from the bullet wound. If he is a meth head, it may mean nothing, in which case Andy has to be ready to empty the clip, almost immediately after the first shot, and will be exonerated.
    Since we have one witness 60 feet away who says “help, help, help” ceased after the one shot, and the preliminary forensics seems to rule out Z as the helper yelper, it would seem that Z had the upper hand, and had no need to shoot. I’m still looking to find out exactly what part of T Z hit. Front side or back side. head or torso?

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  47. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Good night Doug.

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