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April 2012
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George Rebane

The shooting of Trayvor Martin has raised a fundamental rights issue that most of us have for long thought was a done deal in a free society – namely, whether a law-abiding citizen is still allowed to defend himself with deadly force should he be the victim of an attack that may leave him dead or maimed.

MuggingBefore the progressive assault on the law abiding and victim, there was no question that such a permission was a fundamental right of a free citizen.  It is ensconced in the Bastiat Triangle (q.v.) and was interpreted as such by our Founders.  Until recently, ‘stand your ground’ SYG was not even called out per se in our legal codes – it was naturally assumed to be the right and the proper thing to do when criminally assaulted.

Today things are different, and should you find yourself having your brains battered out or about to be stabbed, your instincts to defend are subject to severe post mortem scrutiny by our justice system should you prevail in your defense and in the process the assailant is killed, injured, or suffers some other form of inconvenience.  Amazingly, the first question the victim is supposed to correctly answer is ‘could you have followed some other course than put yourself at the mercy of your alleged assailant?’  In short, justify that you had to be there and then when the low life decided to make his move on you.


Answering that you didn’t know that the low life would be there and stalking, is no longer an automatically acceptable answer.  The legal shyster (aka defense counsel or prosecutor) will then ask whether a ‘reasonable person’ would have known, with the clear implication that, YES a reasonable person would have known and would therefore not made himself an attractive nuisance to such low lives.  The further implication here being that YOU were the one not acting reasonably.  Instead, you thoughtlessly (or intending to entrap?) became an attractive nuisance for such encounters which could easily turn into an assault.  In short, you brought it on to yourself, and now another low life is dead, in the hospital, or emotionally stressed beyond consoling.

But if the victim successfully manages to survive this legal maze of questions, the interrogation proceeds to whether you could have successfully escaped after the assault began.  The implication being that again a reasonable law-abiding person would have seen an available escape and taken advantage of it, thereby obviating the entire SYG issue and defusing the assault-in-progress before anyone got hurt.  The victim’s response, that perhaps he was then not in a position to perform a deliberate search for alternatives and go through a decision process as to which would be the most beneficial for the low life, is guaranteed to escape the nuanced thinking of the interrogating legal beagle.  Again the victim will be painted as having defended ground that should have been relinquished.  That you were scared beyond measure, by the low life who threatened your life or was already in the process of taking it, is swept aside in such proceedings, and most certainly by the lamestream pros covering the case.
 
Speaking of the lamestream, God help you if there’s a hint of ‘race’ involved the encounter.  The whole situation sells a lot more advertizing and satisfies a whole host of established ideology if the victim can be painted, even if with just a hint, as a racist thereby making the whole thing a candidate for, yes, a hate crime.  And, of course, the victim is the putative criminal who three generations ago had an uncle in the KKK.  However, if it happened to be one of the uncounted assaults and murders that the minorities perpetrate on each other every day, then no one gives a crap.  And so it goes today.

My own feelings on the SYG matter is that once the assault has started, the victim has the right to do anything to the assailant that will increase the victim’s perceived odds of not being murdered or maimed during the assault.

There, I’ve broached the inclusion of uncertainty and how it must be considered in choosing a response that, in the mind of the victim, maximizes the probability of his survival (the ‘odds’ favoring an event happening is calculated by dividing the probability that the event happens by its complement, the probability that it will not happen).  Therefore if during the stress and excitement of an assault, the victim has the presence of mind to consider the alternatives of attempting to flee or using counterforce (deadly or otherwise), and he chooses counterforce, that is his right and prerogative.  The assailant’s rights were taken out of the equation the moment he initiated the assault.

If the victim has available deadly counterforce, then clearly the proper choice would be to use it since that increases the victim’s odds of surviving (murder or maiming).  Choosing to flee – presenting your back to one who, perhaps, is much more fleet of foot, and who already has threatened your life – raises the question of how likely to succeed would such an attempt be, given the contingencies of the situation.  And again, that assessment remains the prerogative of the victim, and not that of a post hoc smart-mouthed lawyer.

In the universe I live in, all critters from a gnat to a nobelist are evolved Bayesians.  They and their long line of ancestors learned to exercise their hard-wired Bayes rule decision makers eons ago.  Granted, they did not compute out the probabilities to the third decimal place, or maybe even to the units level, but they got it close enough, and often enough that here we all are.

Thoughts?

Posted in , ,

118 responses to “Stand Your Ground – Some Thoughts”

  1. Earl Crabb Avatar

    The most damning evidence against Zimmerman at this point (and I am not assuming guilt until ALL the facts are in) is that he fulfilled his obligation as a neighborhood watchman by alerting the authorities to the “suspicious character”. Said authorities then advised him to back off, which he apparently did not do. A recipe for disaster.

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  2. George Rebane Avatar

    EarlC 609pm – agreed Bob. But my hope here is that we would get some perspectives on the general notion of SYG as it concerns the ‘security in your person’ provision of the Constitution and as a structural right as posited in the Bastiat Triangle.

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  3. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Photos of the back of the head show two scratches, and blood the bleeds downwards, only. Supposedly taken right after the incident. Seems odd to me that there is NOT a companion photo of the face showing damage to the nose. If the back of head damages occurred during heading banging, then the blood should have been irregularly mushed around. Looks to me like self inflicted woumds, against a plant, bush tree, or nearby fence. I’ve got a great place of him if he gets out on bail, and for the rest of you looking to escape problems associated with George’s Singularity vision of the future: http://www.pakalertpress.com/2012/04/11/the-doomsday-shelter-being-built-below-kansas-prairie-where-millionaires-will-be-able-to-sit-out-the-apocalypse-in-style/

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  4. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    I run into Zimmerman on a dark night. He is “scary” to me. I shoot and kill him. I scrape my head against a nearby fence, claim he attacked. All perfectly legal, apparently. BTW, the distance back to his car, and the initial evidence that he is NOT the one calling for help on the tape, will also be considered. I suppose using the “Twinkies” defense would be appropriate here, since he is up against the fact that with iced tea in one hand and a bag of Skittles in the other, Zimmerman’s supposed assailant already had his hands full.

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  5. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Neighborhood watch folks should either be unarmed, or patrolling in pairs, just as there are two key turners in missile launch facities.

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  6. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    MettaWorldPeace and Zimmerman have a lot in common.

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  7. Earl Crabb Avatar

    Well, if the question is boiled down to one’s ability to defend one’s self, I’m all for it, especially as I become older and unable to defend myself physically or unable to run fast enough to escape a dangerous situation.
    However, I don’t know that I would feel more secure living in a society where everyone is armed to the teeth. I’ve been in situations where I’ve had to talk someone down from solving a dispute with a gun, and my motivation was as much my own preservation as the would-be shooter or his intended target. Once bullets start flying there is always the danger of becoming collateral damage.
    Modern technology has given us more options; cell phones that can alert authorities and record crimes in progress, and less lethal means of self defense.
    You have to ask yourself if Zimmerman wouldn’t have been able to defend himself as well with a can of pepper spray. One advantage of that scenario is that Trayvon Martin would be alive today to tell his side of the story.

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  8. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Someone on another blog said there was another form of self defense called “flee to the wall”. They said it was a sold as “stand our ground”. I searched for it but came up with nothing. I never heard of it.
    Since no one knows anything about what really happened, everyone is simply guessing. My understanding is there was a witness who says Martin was beating up Zimmerman at Zimmerman’s car. He had returned to the car? Did Martin follow him?

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  9. Steven Frisch Avatar

    One also has to ask, ” what is the responsibility of a neighborhood watch member?”
    The police had been notified, the incident recorded, no indication of a violent crime in commission at the time, and the watch member had been advised to leave it to the authorities.
    But if Mr. Martin had beten Mr. Zimmerman to death, do any of us have any out that he would have been arrested? Would SYG have protected Mr. Martin? Somehow I doubt it.

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  10. Brad Croul Avatar

    So, Martin is walking through a neighborhood. Zimmerman is suspicious of him, and he calls 911. The 911 operator tells him to not to confront the guy. But Zimmerman sets out after him. Martin notices some dude stalking him. At some point Zimmerman confronts Martin. Martin stands his ground (not Zimmerman), and has no gun but tries to fight off his attacker and is shot by the wannabe cop with a gun.
    Is that what happened?

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  11. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    Our ‘justice system’ is a farce. It is illegal to protect property by force (only the government can transfer property by force). Defending one’s life (or that of a loved one) by force is no longer acceptable.
    Still…. “better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6” (unless the media gets a hold of the story).
    Zimmerman has no chance of a fair trial.
    The media acted as a misinformed lynch mob in the Zimmerman case, we don’t even know what we don’t know and we don’t know what we think we know.

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  12. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    The question being asked here concerns SYG. I think George had to realize it would degenerate a certain amount into imagined scenarios in the Zimmerman/Martin case. I think the issue of the law becomes moot most of the time by circumstances. If I think I’m in danger and have a lethal weapon, at some point I’ll be making a decision as to using the weapon. My personal safety trumps worrying about statute law at that moment. What I’d like to hear from the good folks that post here is what they would do if confronted/cornered by threatening types. I’m sure a lot would simply state that they wouldn’t carry a gun and the issue is pointless to them. What if you did have a gun and you were threatened? The idea of using a cell phone to call for help is ludicrous. Muggings and such are over before you could even make the call. Forget the Z/M case here for now. Just because Zimmerman will invoke it doesn’t have any bearing on the law itself. My take is like most folks. Why do we have to have a law to allow ourselves protection from assailants? Isn’t that a given in a civilized society?

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  13. A Facebook User Avatar

    George,
    In the Martin/ Zimmerman case who was the victim?

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  14. A Facebook User Avatar

    Todd,
    Here is the thing we do know what happened. Zimmerman was told by 911 not to pursue and he ignored the orders. Travon (Slim) Martin girlfriend was on the phone with him when Zimmerman approached Martin. Martin’s father lives in the neighborhood and he was armed with candy and ice tea.
    ABC News report
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jhes6BlFf8&feature=related
    The right to defend/ protect ourselves is pretty established but this law was put in place to limit liability of the biggest gun retailer in US- WalMart.

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  15. George Rebane Avatar

    ScottO 837am – Yes Scott, I did know that progressives would have a hard time discussing SYG per se – their collective ideology reliably predicts that they advocate the use of force first, by the state, second, the socially aggrieved criminal (and they’re all socially aggrieved), and last, by the law abiding citizen.
    However given this, there are still contingencies that surround SYG which IMHO are worthy of a reasoned discussion. BobC’s 512am states that he’s leery of “living in a society where everyone is armed to the teeth.” Not long ago America was armed to the teeth (from NYC to SF), and you’d be hard pressed to find a crime statistic that hasn’t multiplied many times over after we began letting criminals and the police be the only reliably armed members of society.
    A hundred years ago no one would have dared go into a public place and start wantonly shooting innocent people. He would have been dropped after his first shot (or maybe even before).

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  16. Paul Emery Avatar

    Not true George. Crime rates, at least it California. are down
    http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm

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  17. A Facebook User Avatar

    George,
    Your revision of history would be comical if it wasn’t about such a serious issue. As our government increasingly becomes the tool for big business guns have become more abundant in our society. The numbers actually support your final statement but since it is obvious you’re talking out of your hind quarters I won’t give you pleasure of making this point in a later comment. Personally I don’t think there is a real connection to gun ownership and crime but I would use the argument for defending gun rights.
    http://www.ammoland.com/2010/01/13/gun-owners-buy-14-million-plus-guns-in-2009/#axzz1ssgkTQKq

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  18. Earl Crabb Avatar

    A hundred years ago you didn’t have meth, and I’ve seen plenty of situations where alcohol is enough inspiration to abandon reason.
    And sorry to have mentioned the Zimmerman/Martin case. It just seems to be an example of SYG that bears inspection. How can you generalize when every situation is different?

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  19. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    The days of a six shooter are gone, and the days of spray guns are here (Uzi’s, etc.) I’ll be damned, Ben, never thought of the legal protection it offers Walmart! George, would you drive anywhere in anything less than a bullet proof car if all (including the dumbest newly hatched meth head) could carry and claim you tried to run them off the road? I am taking at least one of the dogs with me on a regular basis. There is no question that in a gas station or parking lot, I get more respect, than I would alone, and whatever I have in the car is much more safer. Our new shepherd, Lucky, has now, eight months later, bonded well with Katrina, and they keep the deer etc, at bay from the garden. We still need one more shepherd, so that two stay behind and one travels. A society where everyone has a dog is a much more civilized society, and safer than an armed to teeth society. Dogs should be amendment 2B.
    Todd, so far I have seen nothing that indicate Zimmerman was anywhere near close to his car. He does seem to have been the aggressor.

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  20. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Walmart is such a charming company, from this mornings Reuters, oh and Zimmerman’s out of jail: (Reuters) – Allegations that Wal-Mart Stores Inc stymied an internal investigation into extensive bribery at its Mexican subsidiary are likely to lead to years of regulatory scrutiny and could eventually cost some executives their jobs.
    The New York Times reported on Saturday that in September 2005, a senior Wal-Mart lawyer received an email from Sergio Cicero Zapata, a former executive at the company’s largest foreign unit, Wal-Mart de Mexico, describing how the subsidiary had paid bribes to obtain permits to build stores in the country.
    Wal-Mart sent investigators to Mexico City and found a paper trail of hundreds of suspect payments totaling more than $24 million, but the company’s leaders shut down the investigation and neglected to notify U.S. or Mexican law enforcement officials, the Times reported.
    Legal and retail experts said that the allegations, if proven true, could badly hamper the company and its management for years. They could lead to a time-consuming global probe, substantial financial penalties paid to U.S. authorities, and the departure of some executives.
    One option Wal-Mart will have is to remove some of those involved in the alleged bribery or cover-up as this could make it easier to reach an out-of-court settlement with the U.S. Department of Justice concerning possible breaches of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA), a U.S. law that forbids the payment of bribes to foreign government officials.
    “Among the remedial actions is ‘house cleaning’ of anyone involved in illegal conduct,” said Richard Cassin, a lawyer who is an expert on the FCPA and writes a blog about it. “If a company can say those involved in the questionable conduct are already gone, the DOJ is likely to look more favorably on the company and current management.”

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  21. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    “A hundred years ago no one would have dared go into a public place and start wantonly shooting innocent people.” That would be 1912, and I think you need to go back yet another 50 years to get where you want to go. Of course that far back, most folks had to work at eeking out a living or starve, so they were preoccupied, no pun intended.

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  22. A Facebook User Avatar

    Earl,
    The war on drugs has definitely increased gun sales over the last 40 years. Just look at the southern border of the US and the findings that 70% of guns found in drug trade come from US. Prohibition doesn’t work and creates crime through underground market. The US drug and gun policies (example Fast and Furious) has created this entire mess on the border. Entrepreneurs see prohibition as a chance of making quick turn around profit. The public gets the financial burden of enforcing and incarceration of non-violent drug offenders. We also become the victims of the tough on crime bs. Laws affect law-abiding citizens much more than criminals.
    Here is a 2010 report on the violence of Juarez.
    http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/16/charles_bowden_on_the_war_next

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  23. George Rebane Avatar

    The question remains – When a law abiding citizen is assaulted, does he have the right to take available measures that maximize his survival probability?
    And EarlC (our beloved Bob) makes the point well in his 926am, albeit in a backhanded way – “how can (we) generalize …?” We have to generalize in law, we have no choice – the Constitution generalizes all over the place.
    The alternative is to tacitly accept that each individual has the right to defend himself, and that right is adjudicated in court on a case-by-case basis. Today’s farcical justice system would then become a three-ring circus with the state being forced to prosecute everyone so involved. No longer would the authorities be able to dismiss an obvious case of self-defense as falling into an allowable category of rights. Criminality would then truly become the mode of behavior that most reliably succeeds in society.

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  24. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    IF, and when a citizen is assaulted, which has not been established here. The whole reason behind the laws concerning concealed weapons is to avoid just exactly the dilemma the SYG sets up. If you give everyone* the right to CCW, you get far more accidental shootings. If you do OCW for all*, you still get way too many accidental shootings. I wonder what the stats of the Old West actually were, too bad we don’t know one way or the other, but in any case the population sample would have been way too small. I rather doubt the East Coast had most folks armed and carrying. The weapon of choice and means of murder in the gold camps was a hammer smashed through a sleeping head. Maybe we should all carry carpenter’s belts?
    *”all” and “everyone” refer to citizens not otherwise prohibitied from carrying.

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  25. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 920am – My reference was to a longer time interval that going back to 1960.
    And sidetracking to the ‘guns for self-defense’ issue. The part that does not come into play during these debates is the number of crimes that are thwarted or prevented by armed law-abiding citizens – acknowledging the gun as a preventative is tabu. More here
    http://www.cato.org/publications/white-paper/tough-targets-when-criminals-face-armed-resistance-citizens

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  26. Paul Emery Avatar

    How far back do you George and do you have documentation or is this folklore?

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  27. Paul Emery Avatar

    Rewrite
    How far back do you go George and do you have documentation or is this folklore?

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  28. Brad Croul Avatar

    GeorgeR 1002am – It has always been understood that you can defend yourself against attackers. But, when is deadly force justified?
    In the Martin/Zimmerman case you brought up, are you assuming that Zimmerman, or Martin, was the agressor?
    Based on what I have heard, Zimmerman is guilty of, at least, manslaughter, not self-defense use of deadly force.
    This case shows why we need to be more careful who we allow to carry guns around.

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  29. Brad Croul Avatar

    And, if you want to go along the lines of, “everyone should be carrying”, you need to make guns available to teenagers like Martin so they can defend themselves from overzealous night watchmen.

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  30. Ryan Mount Avatar

    This whole situation is a mess. And then let’s add in the mob frenzy and the trial by the media, and we’ve got a show P.T Barnum would have loved to sell. Remember: people are making money off this tragedy!
    Given all of the other unnecessary gun-related violence that has happened since this tragedy, why are we not up in arms about those? The simple answer is this case is more fashionable and it happened in an affluent area. There are other reasons too why this case has dubiously captured our imaginations, but even mentioning those could cause a blog food fight. But you can see for yourself here:
    http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/gunviolence/factsethnicity

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  31. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 1046am – Assault crime rates and mass murders are hard to find for extended periods. I rely on historical accounts (e.g. the monumental Time-Life History of the West). Perhaps you could find some old news stories about mass killings a century ago, they most certainly would have made the newspapers. Here are a couple of refs that may contribute to this side thread – http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/25730.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
    Note the graphs in the latter that increase during a period when gun ownership and use were being proscribed, and then start decreasing when the ‘right to carry’ laws started being re-enacted about 1990. But then, that’s a correlation and not necessarily a causal link. Maybe your research can shed more light.
    BradC 1100am – “… when is deadly use justified?” Well, I have maintained that it’s always justified during an assault in which the assaulted perceives that his life in danger or of being maimed. Please read this post, and tell us under what circumstances during an assault is the victim not justified in using deadly force for self-defense. For a useful discussion it’s best to avoid a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking (post hoc reasoning), since the victim must decide and act in an extremely stressful situation (e.g. contemplating his own momentary execution) with very little information beyond what he directly perceives.

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  32. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    What ws Martin doing in a gated community? Was he trespassing? I don’t know what the Florida laws are regarding gated communities but it would seem to me if he was not a resident he would be viewed as a suspicious person. It seems Alan Dershowitz the famed liberal lawyer is totally disgusted with the prosecutions indictment of Zimmerman.
    http://conservativebyte.com/2012/04/dershowitz-blasts-zimmerman-prosecution-not-only-immoral-but-stupid/
    When I think abut this case I ask myself, what would Steve Frisch do? LOL!

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  33. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    So even if Zimmerman came up behind Trayvon and tapped him on the shoulder, and said, “WTF are you doing here?”, Zimmerman would be justified in shooting Trayvon if Trayvon suddenly turned around and punched him (a poossible scenario, IMHO) ? I don’t think so. Basically, Zimmerman appears to have INVADED Trayvon’s personal space. So the question becomes, under what circumstances do you have a right to protect your personal space, and are invaders allowed to use deadly force during unwarrented intrusions, just because they feel threatened?

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  34. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Mass killings are dependent on semi to fully automatic hand acrryable weapons with large clips. Did not exist in 1878. or even 1912.
    “The Thompson Submachine Gun was developed by General John T. Thompson who originally envisioned an auto rifle (semi-automatic rifle) to replace the bolt action service rifles then in use. While searching for a way to allow such a weapon to operate safely without the complexity of a recoil or gas operated mechanism, Thompson came across a patent issued to John Bell Blish in 1915 based on adhesion of inclined metal surfaces under pressure.[11] Thompson found a financial backer, Thomas F. Ryan, and started the Auto-Ordnance Company in 1916 for the purpose of developing his auto rifle. The principal designers were Theodore H. Eickhoff, Oscar V. Payne, and George E. Goll. By late 1917, the limits of the Blish Principle were discovered: rather than working as a locked breech, it functioned as a friction-delayed blowback action. It was found that the only cartridge currently in U.S. service suitable for use with the lock was the .45 ACP round. Thompson then envisioned a “one-man, hand-held machine gun” in .45 ACP as a “trench broom” for use in the on-going trench warfare of World War I. Payne designed the gun itself and its stick and drum magazines. The project was then titled “Annihilator I”, and by 1918, most of the design issues had been resolved. However, the war ended before prototypes could be shipped to Europe.[“

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  35. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Todd, who, in LWW, knows all the other residents well enough by sight to be able to decide at night who is and who isn’t a resident? For that matter, during broad daylight? How many residents can you correctly identify, under ideal conditions? Would you blast a way only to discover you killed the visiting brother of the Homeowner Association’s President?

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  36. George Rebane Avatar

    Well, it appears that serving up the expected anecdotal outliers are in full swing here, and stuck firmly in speculations about the Zimmerman/Martin case. Admittedly, a serious discussion of SYG is hard stuff, but then that’s what we try to do around here.

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  37. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    So seriously, in this discussion, what right does Zimmerman have to invade the personal space of Trayvon in the first place?

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  38. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Or more generally, what right does anyone have to invade the personal space of another? You are out for a walk. Can I position myself so that you have to change course and walk around me? Can I keep on repositioning myself to block your changing path? If you should walk into me, do I have the right to shoot you?

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  39. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    You can’t have a discussion without considering personal space, as that is what “your ground” is. How big is that bubble? How big is it visually, auditorially, and physically?

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  40. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Yes George, I know it may be hard for you after delivering your unsupported anecdotal evidence of crime statistics from the Old West, but some of us are into dealing with the hard questions.

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  41. billy T Avatar

    Dr. Rebane, at least you tried. As soon as you posted your thoughts yesterday I knew where this was going. Not that I am innocent of straying off topic often. STG is a great topic. I once volunteered a great amount of time for a non profit helping homeless and providing an drug and alcohol free place for people to go and chill. Sort of like the Spirit House in Grass Valley. Anyways, the local residents were up in arms and some wanted the place shut down or moved away from their backyard. I understood both sides of the issue. The point is a neighbor testified that she felt “apprehension” while walking her dog by the place. Never mind there where no problems like burglaries or assaults or people camping out or pissing in neighbor’s backyards like the HH has to deal with. She felt apprehension was enough. If under a perceived threat, the fight or flee instinct kicks in. Even an ant has that instinct when messed with. It is not natural to turn one’s back to the opponent when doing battle. Mankind used to live in caves and when the saber toothed tiger approached, his instincts look over. His nostrils flared for more oxygen, his heart rate quickened for heightened reflexes, even his body emptied the bladder to prepare for do or die. We still have these survival instincts and SYG is a natural human reaction to imminent danger, real or perceived. The other option is to run away as fast as the feet will move. Self preservation in a second overrides calm reasoned thought. Then our reason takes over and reassess the threat. That dog charging at you is just running down the street heading home. I feel folks are off target when they debate over a gated community or various laws or skittles. We don’t know if the exchange lasted over a period of time with ebbs and flows of adrenaline and who felt threatened when. Probably both felt threatened at one time. But the bigger issue is can a person defend his life and property lawfully? Can a person repel a threat, even if that threat is only “apprehension”?

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  42. Gregory Avatar

    The neighborhood streets are not anyone’s “personal space”. It is legal to follow someone on public property, and even Washington State’s supreme court has ruled that Washintonians have no duty to retreat in the face of attack if they have a legal right to be where they are. It will be up to a jury to actually hear and judge all of the evidence, but there seems to be some evidence to support Zimmerman’s claim that he was attacked before he drew and fired his weapon. There is also some evidence of poor judgement by Zimmerman, but again, that’s up to a jury to decide, assuming a trial by jury.
    “Mass killings are dependent on semi to fully automatic hand acrryable [sic] weapons with large clips. Did not exist in 1878. or even 1912.”
    I guess Keach doesn’t think Ulysses’ homecoming in Homer’s “The Odyssey” was an impressive mass killing.
    Pure BS. This is what happens when someone like Keach starts writing without much knowledge. Semi and fully automatic hand carried firearms are 19th century inventions, and the 9mm cartridge was introduced in 1902 for the Luger pistol. The “Broomhandle” Mauser, functionally equivalent to Zimmerman’s gun, was introduced 106 years ago in 1896, and even Keach may notice it sure looks a lot like Luke Skywalker’s “blaster”.

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  43. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    One shot into the air or ground would have had the entire neighborhood out there instantly to help sort things out. Take for example this person at the Gifford’s shooting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldi1mgVgsAc

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  44. Gregory Avatar

    Keach, I doubt you’d fire a warning shot into the ground if your head was being bashed into the concrete. Or, as an early report claimed in the Martin shooting, that your assailant was trying to grab your gun.
    Just how hard does your head need to slammed into concrete before you decide you are in grave danger? We’re talking about normal craniums, not Scottish.
    There is no duty to wait for the cavalry to arrive to save you.

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  45. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Gregory, heads slammed into concrete do not show two lateral slices with neat blood stains going downwards only, CSI 101.
    And if they were going to photograph anything, where are the companion images of the face, with the same time stamps and camera? Where is the image of where the head hit the ground and left blood. Where there nearby bushes trees, fences, sharp edges of building that may have produced the scrapes?
    How much into Martin’s “stood ground” personal space, take your pick did Zimmerman have to be for Trayvon to spin around and land a punch? While holding onto a cell phone a bag of Skittles, and a can of ice tea? Is your brain case immersed in ice tea for you to miss all that?

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  46. Gregory Avatar

    Keach, that’s all for a jury to decide. Expect there not to be anyone like you allowed to serve.

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  47. Gregory Avatar

    Zimmerman’s claim is that martin invaded his space (beginning the physical attack) from behind as he walked back to his car. It is plausible, but again, it’s up to a jury.
    Somehow, I suspect anything more than negligent homicide may be very hard to get past a jury, but who knows? Maybe the proscecutor has more than Alan Dershowitz seems to think.

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  48. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Mass killings references were those of the modern day, George was claiming that they happen because of not everyone being armed as they were in the Golden Days of yesteryear. Do you suppose the availability of such weapons (which you listed) was very high in the first 30 years after their invention? Since you be so smart, why don’t you come up with the production figures? How long were passenger airliners flying before DB Cooper came along and found a new use for them?
    Let’s hope the jury is smarter than both of us put together, wouldn’t that be a hoot!

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  49. Gregory Avatar

    “Gregory, heads slammed into concrete do not show two lateral slices with neat blood stains going downwards only, CSI 101.”
    You’ve been watching too much tv. When you are sitting or standing, a wound’s oozing blood flows downwards. Physics 1A.
    Really, Keach, once again you’re just free associating. Think, for once! Use it or lose it, although I suppose it may already be gone forever.

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  50. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    “Or, as an early report claimed in the Martin shooting, that your assailant was trying to grab your gun.” looks like the lawyer quashed that one. It would then be admissible that Zimmerman had pulled it out and threatened Trayvon. Walking back to the car? Well now just where did this killing take place? At the car, or where Zimmerman chased Trayvon down? So far the concrete has been described many times, and never once referred to as “sidewalk.” That should tell you something.

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