Rebane's Ruminations
April 2012
S M T W T F S
1234567
891011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
2930  

ARCHIVES


OUR LINKS


YubaNet
White House Blog
Watts Up With That?
The Union
Sierra Thread
RL “Bob” Crabb
Barry Pruett Blog

George Rebane

For the benefit of the undecided reader who is truly puzzled as to the nature and fate of collectivist vs (classical) liberal forms of governance, we will take another lap around the barn.  The examination and critique of public policy always circles back to the fundamental arguments between the eternally contending measures of liberty and equality.  Equality is easy to attain and maintain, all it takes is ignorance and the gun.  Liberty is the more difficult to achieve and keep intact.  And that is because ‘equality’ is always arbitrarily defined by the central imposing agency; the definition of liberty is distributed and requires broad consensus among those who are free.

That all forms of collectivism have an intrinsic tendency toward autocracy is an historical truth that is rejected only by the collectivist, no matter what particular mantle – socialist, Marxist, communist, fascist, … – he wears.  A favorite argument that works on light thinkers is that liberty and the capitalistic free market societies it gives rise to are only theories that have yet to work anywhere in the real world.

Today Michael Moore and his minions are effective teachers of this thought.  Their ancestors would have made the same arguments to our Founders in the aftermath of our Revolution – ‘That man can govern himself is nothing but a theory, show me where in the world we see such form of governance working.’  The intellectual pinnacle of the collectivist seems to be that liberal maxims cannot be trusted to work since nowhere do we see their perfect application, therefore we must only hew to and expand collectivist forms of governance that are observably unsustainable.

BastiatIn my readings and studies, I find that all successful liberal societies must base their form of governance on the explicit statement and maintenance of the minimum triangle of rights collected by Frederic Bastiat in his ‘The Law’ (1849).  These consist of the rights to private property, security in your person, and individual liberty (see also the Bastiat Triangle).   One of the fundamental and minimal functions of the state is to uniformly guarantee these rights, for the weakening of any one of them immediately weakens the other two.  And it is upon this stable structure of rights that all other legitimate rights can be constructed into a larger and still stable structure of social governance.  Our Constitution prescribes such a structure.


One of the fundamental limitations that government must operate under is a fisc sustained by taxes limited to a specific maximum fraction of the nation’s GDP.  I believe the sweet spot for that fraction is in the 15-20% range.  And that fraction must be adhered even in times of national emergency when clearly a larger share of GDP is required to maintain public welfare and/or sovereignty.  The clarity of such requirement is used by the government to borrow additional monies (e.g. ‘Victory Bonds’, Treasuries) as needed from its citizens and foreign lenders.  If its citizens are not voluntarily willing to step up to maintain their nation in time of trouble, then they have collectively decided to let it dissolve and cast their lot for a better future.  That is the responsibility of true freedom – you are free to again become a slave.

None of the above is feasible for large, diverse populations.  It only works when it is implemented by people who share the necessary commonalities to come together in the attempt to form such a ‘more perfect union’.  The dominant commonality is a culture that is sufficiently deep, uniformly honored, and widely celebrated.  Such cultures evolve slowly and are necessarily exclusionary.  But they do guarantee the maximum liberties with the minimum of formal legislation and its enforcement bureaucracy.  The alternatives to this have been presented to us in the 20th century, and new ones are in the construction phase in this century.

Liberal states do not send armies across borders to spread their gospel.  But they do jealously guard their own borders, conditionally letting in only those who are judged to serve the interests of the established.  A community of such nations would serve as a dynamic laboratory of competing experiments in governance, each free to copy the beneficial discoveries of the other.

The more collectivist states will remain as the biggest threat to world order, since their inability to create sufficient wealth will require the perennial finger-pointing at foreign pariahs who are the propagandized cause of their internal shortcomings and misery.  It is they who will have the tendency (requirement?) to send armies instead of trade goods across their frontiers.

Today the EU is the most compelling exhibit of these principles.  After decades of socialistic programs which have primarily served to grow usurious governments, the facades of such social engineering are beginning to crumble.  But the downfall is not uniform across the continent, and does reflect the cultural propensities of the nations involved.  Germany is clearly the richest and most stable of such nations, and it is being studied for emulation by other EU member states like Italy, Spain, and even the Scandinavians.

However, the recent (14-20apr12) issue of The Economist contains analyses concluding that the German model may not be worth copying, primarily because its working owes so much to the culture of the German people, a culture of structured dynamism and “ordered flexibility”.  “(T)he essence of (the German) model is rooted too deeply (in its culture) to be copied easily.”  This beneficial state of affairs has come about through an aggressive effort by Germans to “liberalize its labor market rules” and broaden its apprentice/academic dual track educational system.  Germany realized a long time ago that not all students are prepared to benefit from a college education, especially one that is empty of teaching wealth creation skills.

I don’t want to end this little apology with the implication that Germany is practicing a sustainable form of liberal governance.  Along with other Caucasian nation-states of Europe, Germany is headed for a demographic iceberg.  Germany, due to its history, is particularly vulnerable to losing its economic primacy as its population ages and workforce shrinks.  It cannot convince Germans to make enough little Germans to keep the whole thing going.  And thereby hangs another tale.

[16apr12 update]  H/T to a reader who sent me the revealing graphic below.  The reader is invited to note the levels of unemployment BEFORE the Great Depression.  That these were outrageously high was somehow missed by our own socialists singing the praises of the ‘European model’ of socialist policies.  This is a useful picture of the economies Europe is trying to pull back from, and the ones that Obama and the Dems have been attempting to replicate with some considerable success.

EurozoneUnemployment
Adding to the current developments in Europe’s pullback from its collectivist policies is this piece in 14apr12 The Spectator on ‘Sweden’s secret recipe’ by Fraser Nelson.  There he reports –

… Since becoming Sweden’s finance minister, (Anders Borg’s) mission has been to pare back government. His ‘stimulus’ was a permanent tax cut. To critics, this was fiscal lunacy — the so-called ‘punk tax cutting’ agenda. Borg, on the other hand, thought lunacy meant repeating the economics of the 1970s and expecting a different result.

Three years on, it’s pretty clear who was right. ‘Look at Spain, Portugal or the UK, whose governments were arguing for large temporary stimulus,’ he says. ‘Well, we can see that very little of the stimulus went to the economy. But they are stuck with the debt.’ Tax-cutting Sweden, by contrast, had the fastest growth in Europe last year, when it also celebrated the abolition of its deficit. The recovery started just in time for the 2010 Swedish election, in which the Conservatives were re-elected for the first time in history. …

Posted in , , ,

81 responses to “The Eternal Debate with Collectivists (updated 16apr12)”

  1. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    You are right that it has been traditionally the democratic party that has entangled the US in military actions in the 20th century. Wilson, FDR, Truman, Johnson, and then the shift happened. The shift was the republican party with Nixon abandoned their non intervention platform and policies. Since 1981 the illegal actions belong to all administrations Reagan, HW Bush, Clinton, W Bush, and now Obama have all used our military in acts of war with out the legal(US) declaration from congress.

    Like

  2. Gregory Avatar

    Ben forgets Kennedy & Viet Nam.

    Like

  3. Ben Emery Avatar

    Greg,
    If we are being honest I believe it was Truman administration that started MAAG and Eisenhower continued it as the French were ending their occupation (1955). The first American casualties in Vietnam were in 1959. JFK continued the policy and was building up our presence in Vietnam but it wasn’t until the lie of Gulf of Tonkin that set up the stage for the fledged illegal immoral military action. What right does a sovereign nation have to occupy and colonize another sovereign nation?
    Don’t you find all of this a bit disturbing that the western world has been on the wrong side of tyranny for centuries?

    Like

  4. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 910am – Eisenhower’s continuation of MAAG??! “… first American casualties in Vietnam were in 1959.”??! These are the devastating repartees of the ‘all warmongers are Republicans because they need war to control the people’ faction? So noted.

    Like

  5. A Facebook User Avatar

    George,
    As you know Obama signed the biggest defense budget in US history. As we get further and further down the road of blind nationalism/ exceptionalism to justify the expansion of the American military empire through unnecessary interventions it becomes a form of control over the people. The problem is partisanship overrides objectivity and we have a tendency to contort our principles to defend policies. The problem arises from neither party leadership wants to nip their bread n butter military industrial complex contracts for their districts so we are in a perpetual growth cycle. A politician that proposes or votes for bills that will kill jobs will be a one term representative. We have spent $1.3 trillion on two occupations of sovereign nations since 2001 without a tax to pay for it and that cost is projected to be well over $3 trillion before all is said and done. Our resources are taken from domestic use and used elsewhere. We are now being told that domestic infrastructure and social safety net spending needs to be cut due to the lack of money. It is the same recipe that most empires succumb too. It has been a strategy of control used for centuries. Very rarely do we see the upper class serve in the ranks of the infantry/in the line of fire or see their subsides/ tax loopholes end to pay for war.
    MAAG stands for Military Assistance and Advisory Group. I couldn’t remember the name of the paper that first brought this to my attention but I pulled up this link and skimmed over it. It seems to reinforce what I remember from my original source. Actually my dad might be a military product of this program. He was in special forces during Korea.
    https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/MAAG2.html
    First American casualties in Vietnam 1959
    http://army.togetherweserved.com/army/servlet/tws.webapp.WebApp?cmd=ShadowBoxProfile&type=AssignmentExt&ID=469169
    “Bright blue skies above the National Mall today belied the solemnity of the ceremony commemorating the first two American combat casualties of the Vietnam War.
    “On this date 50 years ago, two men lost their lives in a country that most of us here in the United States had never heard of at the time,” said Jan C. Scruggs, founder of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund. “The deaths of U.S. Army military advisors Major Dale Buis and Master Sergeant Chester Ovnand marked the beginning of a lengthy war, which became a very divisive event for our society.”

    Like

  6. Gregory Avatar

    Kennedy and LBJ, with McNamara being the common agent, were the architects of the Viet Nam debacle. Democrats all. The Gulf of Tonkin fraud was Democratic as well.
    The two Americans killed in Viet Nam in ’59 were not combat troops.

    Like

  7. George Rebane Avatar

    FacebookUser 1139am – Thank you for the explanations about what surprised me in my 910am. I know full well what MAAG and the incidence of first casualties in Vietnam were; it’s their use by BenE that was more than remarkable.
    BTW, on RR you are viewed as a sackhead (q.v.) for not revealing your true identity. This blog is not a forum for sackheads.

    Like

  8. Gregory Avatar

    “What right does a sovereign nation have to occupy and colonize another sovereign nation?”
    One, while France was a colonial power in the region, we were not. We were there by treaty, SEATO, of which South Viet Nam was a signatory. North Viet Nam, a client state of the USSR, really was attacking and undermining the South.
    SEATO was a cold war nuclear umbrella that bound the US to treat attacks on members as an attack on the US, only nuking Hanoi was not an option. So we had McNamara’s war to prove to the USSR they couldn’t get away with it, while we wouldn’t use so much force as to provoke overt acts by the Soviets.
    A few carriers anchored outside of Hanoi could have pounded the North into submission with impunity, as long as the Soviets stayed away. But it was thought the Soviets would respond in kind and then we’d have that hot war instead. So many my generation were just thrown into the meat grinder.
    Sorry, Ben. That was Kennedy and LBJ. Nixon was just continuing their policy, and eventually wound it down.
    “Burma, Thailand, India, Japan, the Philippines and obviously Laos and Cambodia are among those whose security would be threatened if the Red Tide of Communism overflowed into Vietnam.” SENATOR John F. Kennedy, 1956

    Like

  9. Gregory Avatar

    George, if you follow the links in the upper right corner of “A Facebook User”‘s linked profile,
    http://profile.typepad.com/d101160081210447627
    it’s clear A Facebook User is Ben Emery.

    Like

  10. George Rebane Avatar

    Gregory 1206pm – If so, why do you think BenE is playing such games?

    Like

  11. Gregory Avatar

    It was so poorly hidden I assumed he wasn’t expecting anonymity.

    Like

  12. THEMIKEYMCD Avatar

    Would be interesting to see “a facebook user” thoughts on Ron Paul; especially RP’s economic beliefs. [Ron Paul appears to agree with “a facebook user” on militarism ‘issues.’]
    I would expect “a facebook user” to believe that (one of) the only virtuous purposes of the military is to support the treasury department… the taxation of the rich :).

    Like

  13. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Of course the military industrial complex had nothing to do with the Vietnam War, After all, they never made a dime off of it…hehe..hawwhaw.hohoho..chi minh…my God how the money rolls in!

    Like

  14. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    How many agencies?
    Now open the phone book, and see, just locally, how many people they are serving. I’m guessing two to three hundred agencies for 30,000,000 to 40,000,000 people. What is needed is a simple guide as to which agencies serve what needs, for how many people, and which people, at what dollar amounts. Ought to be on the opening page of http://www.ca.gov as the first link. The second link can be who is paying for it, broken down by zip code and , if you like, claimed ethnicity.

    Like

  15. A Facebook User Avatar

    Hey Guys,
    Facebook user is Ben Emery and I signed in through facebook. Out of my control I seem to be logged in and out at RR. When trying to go through typepad it would not allow me to post a comment so I logged in through facebook. Why would you think I am trying to hide who I am? It was obvious to me that I was answering George’s questions. I assumed logging in through facebook would use my name. You can put your Nancy Drew sleuthing skills back in their bag for the time being.
    Greg,
    You’re right the Republican Party has never done anything wrong, it was foolish of me to think you could have an honest conversation about an issue. I guess Jan C. Scruggs, founder of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund has it wrong. Next you will tell me McKinley wasn’t a republican either and also the Spanish attacked the USS Maine.

    Like

  16. A Facebook User Avatar

    Mickey,
    I do agree with Ron Paul on the Federal Reserve, Patriot/ FISA Acts, NDAA, Real ID, cannabis, and much of his policies regarding the use of our military. Our military has been used to secure resources for private industry for over a century. This is not why men and women join the military. As a true believer of free markets I would expect you to consider military intervention/ force/ intimidation a form of distortion of the market? Also the further away from the United States our military is used to secure our so-called “interests” the more expensive it becomes to maintain. This leads to more and more money/ investment leaving the country, which leads to less and less for domestic uses. As I said earlier this has led to the fall of many empires and we are the downward spiral becoming irrelevant due to our unwillingness to change as a nation. I contribute this to the corporatist/ fascist faction controlling our government over the last 30 years. Preserving the status quo is also a very conservative quality. I find it interesting how you cannot find correlation between the Reagan Revolution and our exploding debt, crippled manufacturing, crumbling infrastructure, out of control cost increases for health insurance and higher education, increased inequality, and just plain decline as a nation. But that is what partisan goggles does to a person I guess.
    Last point on American “interests”. Our misguided unjust short term gains led directly to our worst international diplomatic problems. Here are a few people that were in our best interests for a short period of time.
    Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi
    Saddam Hussein
    Osama bin Laden
    Manuel Noriega
    Ben Emery

    Like

  17. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 915am – “… preserving the status quo is also a very conservative quality.” That, of course, is a matter of great debate. We recall that it was the classical liberals who sought to overthrow the established autocracies and change the centuries old status quo. It is the collectivists of all stripes who want the state to grow again into the autocracies of yore, and have shown in the last century of what kind of human misery they are capable of inflicting.

    Like

  18. Gregory Avatar

    “You’re right the Republican Party has never done anything wrong”
    How you tortured that out of anything I’ve ever written, I’ve not a clue, and if it were true, I’d have been a Republican at some point of my life.
    Ben, get a grip.

    Like

  19. Gregory Avatar

    “Yes, I think most regular right wingers who comment on Ruminations are fascists and corporatists.”
    Ben Emery, your ignorance is astounding. You’ve obviously never met a fascist, nor learned enough to understand what one is.
    Your vision of Republicans being the root of all evil in the US is due to your rose colored glasses blinding you to the role that JFK (who you conveniently left out of your list) and LBJ (not to mention FDR) in 20th century wars, and even with the Obama administration we have the incredible belief that they don’t even need Congress’ approval to bomb another country as long as the UN approves, but, if I recall correctly, the Republicans in the House and Senate didn’t approve.
    WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam. Democrats were Presidents and led us into them. Not entirely without good reason, but a different end to WWI and an avoidance of the Treaty of Versailles may well have avoided Hitler and WWII, Korea and Indochina.
    Then there was Clinton bombing civilians in Serbia. About the only 20th century Democratic President who wasn’t a warmonger was Carter, who was also perhaps the least effective chief executive of the past 100 years. Maybe longer.
    You claim to want an honest discussion, but I don’t think you have the knowledge or temperment to recognize one when you see it.

    Like

  20. George Rebane Avatar

    Agree with Gregory’s 417pm; and I would add for the ‘independent’ reader that looking at the continuing confusion (ignorance?) of the progressives about the fascist ideology and form of governance is beyond astounding. Confusing fascism with classical liberalism is the folly of historical ignoramuses, or perfidious people who hope their audience is so encumbered. No fascist has ever been the student of Bastiat, von Mises, von Hayek, or Friedman.

    Like

  21. billy T Avatar

    Well, world wide socialism with the greenies in charge might be fascism or it could be just a power grab disguised as plain ole socialism. The liberal ignoramuses never sleep until we are all socialists. Its a matter of fairness. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/04/20/tab-for-uns-rio-summit-trillions-per-year-in-taxes-transfers-and-price-hikes/?test=latestnews

    Like

  22. Michael Anderson Avatar

    George Rebane, 6:33 pm, 4/20/12: “No fascist has ever been the student of Bastiat, von Mises, von Hayek, or Friedman.”
    Of course, this is completely unprovable since you have not interviewed every fascist since Bastiat, von Mises, von Hayek, and Friedman came into prominence. But I digress.
    Is not one prominent aspect of fascism the merging of corporate and state interests, such that individual liberty is suppressed? And cannot the argument be made, at least in a very general fashion, that some of the idiosyncrasies of our ancient Republic have allowed state and corporate bodies to meld in an unholy and undemocratic manner?

    Like

  23. Gregory Avatar

    MA, I think George was thinking in a sense that is more “disciple” than “student”, just attending classes or reading the books.
    I sure would prefer the Democrats to return to their more libertarian roots; the two major parties are both Federalist at heart and we need at least one effective Anti-Federalist party as a balance.
    We need the Whigs back 🙂 Maybe the Libertarian Party can go through a rebranding…
    State and Corporate bodies melding? Like McNamara going from CEO of FoMoCo to Sec’y of Defense under Kennedy and LBJ? Or former Gov. Corzine continuing to bundle money for Obama despite having presided over the destruction of billion$ at his MF Global kleptocracy?

    Like

  24. Michael Anderson Avatar

    Gregory wrote: “…the two major parties are both Federalist at heart and we need at least one effective Anti-Federalist party as a balance.”
    I agree completely.
    And you will not be able to drag me onto the front lines of defending the Democratic Party against their war-mongering ways, because I also agree completely with your timeline and attributions regarding modern-day Democrats being a lot more responsible for 20th century wars than Republicans. Of course, now we are into the 21st century and GWB has set the new “war standard,” but I have no doubt that the Democratic Party will be working hard to catch up, if they can
    manage to maintain any branches of the federal government whatsoever during this continuing agonizing economic crisis.
    And yes, let’s form a new Whig Party, but this time w/o the divisiveness. Let bygones be bygones.

    Like

  25. A Facebook User Avatar

    Greg,
    You seem a bit defensive of your unwillingness to look at history honesty. And it was easy to my conclusion about you.
    I listed every major military action during 20th century by democratic administrations but that wasn’t good enough for you. Then I educated you on Eisenhower and first casualties of Vietnam but I was wrong as is the founder of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund according to you because it implicated Eisenhower. I wrote about the lie Gulf of Tonkin and you ignored it.
    Reagan ignored congress and ran an illegal arms trade with sworn enemy to fund an illegal war along with setting up the drug trade with central/ south America. You probably have no problem with it. Bush I turned on his friend Saddam and then Clinton continued punishing the people of Iraq. This same group of war mongers of the Reagan years filled the Bush II administration and were the key advisers in our illegal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.
    For the record Germany, Italy, and Japan declared war on the United States

    Like

  26. Gregory Avatar

    “Reagan ignored congress and ran an illegal arms trade with sworn enemy to fund an illegal war along with setting up the drug trade with central/ south America.”
    Reagan ran it? And here me and the rest of the country thought it was that Ollie North guy! The Congress gave North immunity so he could testify without invoking the 5th, and North disappointed mightily. The funniest thing about that hearing was that North, despite being a criminal having been given a free pass, came off as being so much more honorable than his Congressional inquisitors.
    You are a keeper of odd knowledge, aren’t you?
    Sorry to burst your balloon, but I never voted for Reagan.

    Like

  27. Gregory Avatar

    “You seem a bit defensive of your unwillingness to look at history honesty[sic]. And it was easy [sic] to my conclusion about you.”
    Ben… I now understand what honesty means to you… coming to the same conclusion as you have. Anyone who is honest would believe as Ben Emery does.
    Amazing.

    Like

  28. Gregory Avatar

    MA, maybe folks like Ben can help pull the regressive “progresssives” into the Greens, and the Democratic Party can eventually return to their 19th century Jeffersonian anti-Federalist roots.
    Maybe not.

    Like

  29. A Facebook User Avatar

    Greg,
    No, honesty means seeing the world with the goggles off. So Reagan had nothing to do with Iran Contra in your opinion? Amazing
    You don’t believe that the Vietnam occupation was started in the 50’s but only with Kennedy and Johnson? Eisenhower having “Military Advisers” who were killed doesn’t count? You also believe that Nixon did nothing but try to end it. That is being partisan dishonest. Nixon/ Kissinger threw a monkey wrench in the Paris peace talks and Nixon went into Cambodia among many other horrific things.
    WAKE UP and smell the Military Industrial Complex, it owns both major political parties.

    Like

  30. Gregory Avatar

    “So Reagan had nothing to do with Iran Contra in your opinion? Amazing.”
    You claimed Reagan “ran an illegal arms trade with sworn enemy to fund an illegal war along with setting up the drug trade with central/ south America.” That was not the case.
    I realize this has reached mythic truthful status in some quarters, but the Democratic House and Senate that Reagan was saddled with did their best to get evidence for this and came up very short; in the end, all they had was Col. Oliver North, who was a loose cannon the Congress gave immunity to, and he apparently told the truth so the immunity held with criminal convictions overturned thanks to the Congressional testimony. Where did Ben Emery get his facts? The same orifice as is usual?

    Like

  31. Gregory Avatar

    “You don’t believe that the Vietnam occupation was started in the 50’s but only with Kennedy and Johnson? Eisenhower having “Military Advisers” who were killed doesn’t count? You also believe that Nixon did nothing but try to end it. That is being partisan dishonest. Nixon/ Kissinger threw a monkey wrench in the Paris peace talks and Nixon went into Cambodia among many other horrific things.”
    Ben, your reading comprehension and understanding is so low and your hate so high it really makes it hard to engage you. Like Keachie, you can erect straw men with bizarre leaps of illogic faster than anyone can tear them down.
    Partisan? I voted for McGovern.

    Like

Leave a comment