Rebane's Ruminations
March 2012
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George Rebane

That Rush Limbaugh called Sandra Fluke a slut is a debate for other fora, but I do want to reflect on the broader ramifications of having the state pay for the prophylactics used in sexual intercourse.  The practice is hugely supported by the left because it underwrites another cut to the traditional cultural mores, especially as they are touted in the Judeo-Christian ethic.  The purported social purpose for the entitlement is that people like Ms Fluke will climb in bed with or without the proper contraception, and if she and her partner are both carefree then the care of her offspring will not be free for the rest of us.  So we should pay for her pills or IUD or whatever.

Reducing this argument to its elements says that society should collectively assume the costs of attempting to prevent behaviors of the irresponsible and indigent, which costs are lower than the subsequent collective costs of dealing with the after effects of such behaviors.

In the minds of many of us, the next question that pops up right away is ‘where does it stop?’  What about the state paying for the statins of people who love to eat fat burgers so that we don’t then have to pay so much for treatment of their subsequent cardio-vascular maladies?  And we can go on to the taxpayers having to bear all kinds of preventative burdens that used to be the personal responsibility of the individual or his family or his relatives or his church; you get the idea.

Here we have the case of a woman who admittedly screws so frequently with diverse partners that neither of them can be counted on, in the heat of the moment, to undertake their pleasures with proper preparation.  One could counter her congressional testimony with the plea that if her activities were, shall we say, more episodic or less frequent, then the specialness of the occasion would naturally invoke other behaviors in the prelude that would prevent an unwanted pregnancy.  But apparently that is not the case with Ms Fluke and her peers.

In order to prevent this new entitlement creep to become a gallop, perhaps we could suggest that she might fund her own 24/7 protection by charging a fee, or asking her partners to chip in a small amount that would total to her ongoing costs of such enterprise.  This would place the burden where it should be borne, and nip in the bud another round of ever expanding and never ending public expenditures.

[5mar12 update]  A reader gives us a heads up on the sad tale concerning Ms Fluke that, in short, reveals that she's no fluke when it comes to  progressive public pyrotechnics.  The source is the American Thinker, where we read –

"Ms. Fluke is long-time feminist activist who graduated in 2003 from Cornell's "Feminist, Gender, & Sexuality Studies." In the decade since then Ms. Fluke has become a political professional for a huge range of feminist causes. She has worked for the (Democrat) Manhattan Borough Taskforce on Domestic violence and…."

The rest is here.

[6mar12 update]  This morning's leftwing NPR Morning Edition contained a segment on Limbaugh's 'slut apology'.  It was classic propaganda to keep this issue alive and focused on the very narrow subject of how Limbaugh characterized Fluke.  In the piece the reporter's entire argument anchored on Fluke being "just a civilian".  To the uninformed listener, the woman was just a random Georgetown University law student with a pocketbook problem in that her and her friends'/peers' rights were being violated by having to bear the cost of their own contraceptives.  Her professional and public political activities were purposely misrepresented, she was anything but "just a civilian".  I base the 'purposely' claim on the fact that Ms Fluke's past and professional agenda have now been broadcast over the countryside, and could not have been missed by NPR's equally professional investigative reporter.

So the pot must be kept boiling and the focus kept on 'slut' instead of the proper breadth of national entitlements.  I am heartened that here on RR we are discussing the important issues regarding the implementation of Obamacare that have been raised by this incident.  I suppose the 'slut gambit'' served its purpose – most certainly here – as an attention getting device.

And here is a fresh perspective from Ms Cathy Ruse, Georgetown law alum and senior fellow for legal studies at the Family Research Council.

Posted in , , ,

204 responses to “The Sad Tale of Sandra Fluke (updated 6mar12)”

  1. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    George as you can read from the ridiculous comments of MichaelA he believes a condoms a civil right. Maybe the counter lady could offer women a strawberry malt and a rubber. What we have here from MA is a classic liberal endorsement by him of Obamacare and its mandate. Government has forced insurance companies to cover things under penalty of jail-time if they don’t. Because of that, a condom deemed necessary by Ms. Fluke is 3 grand instead of one buck. A liberal in sheep’s clothing like MA is always a liberal.

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  2. David King Avatar

    “Gentlemen…”
    “…for the umpteenth time the issue of this post on Ms Fluke is the expansion of entitlements, this time through the door of state…”
    Sorry George, but this is too juicy to overlook!
    “Carbonite is one of Rush Limbaugh’s advertisers that caved in to the left’s faux outrage over slutgate and dropped their advertising from his program. As it turns out, it looks like it may have been an easy decision for David Friend, the company’s CEO. Dan Riehl dug into Friend’s political donations and found that he’s not only a donor to Democrats, but also to the far-left group MoveOn that’s always wanted to silence conservatives like Rush Limbaugh.”
    http://lonelyconservative.com/2012/03/i-would-never-trust-carbonite-to-back-up-my-computer/
    Can you say hypocrite?
    “This explains why Carbonite didn’t pull advertising from Ed Schultz’s show after he called Laura Ingraham a “right wing slut.””
    Ed Shultz
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLeGQr9TK6g
    Again, sorry George.

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  3. billy T Avatar

    Yo, my dear readers of the left: Why do you think Obama and our H&HS Secretary dropped forcing this issue on Jesuit Universities? Why? Why did Obama announce that health insurance providers have volunteered to pass out free contraception to those whose policies do not cover the Pill, the Sponge, or purple prophylactics? Hmmmm? Got any clue? OK, once again. It is because the government cannot mandate that a religious organization violate its own doctrines and beliefs. It is called the First Amendment. It is not hate speech, not health issues, not humping like rabbits or breeding like rats. Nay, it is not left or right, neither Torry or Wig. It is called the Constitution of the United States of America. Perhaps someday eating pig will be found to be life saving. Can the government (any level of government) tell the Mosques in Dearborne, Michigan that they must eat pork? Can the government tell any Church they must violate their traditions? Darn those old white male dinosaurs that wrote the 1st Amendment. Darn them and their pesky Constitution.

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  4. Steven Frisch Avatar

    I am breaking my New Years Resolution to say that perhaps you guys need to read the actual testimony once again, since George is a big stickler for reading comprehension, implying that anyone who does not agree with his comprehension must be intellectually challenged.
    Ms. Fluke DID NOT say that birth control costs HER $3000 a year, she said, “Without insurance coverage, contraception can cost a woman over $3,000 during law school. For a lot of students who, like me, are on public interest scholarships, that’s practically an entire summer’s salary.”
    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/page/271051_Full_Transcript_of_Sandra_Fluk
    She went on to say that many women could not afford appropriate medication, “Women employed in low wage jobs without contraceptive coverage face the same choice.”
    She also went on to make the case that the argument that many other choices are available is sometimes not true, and supported her case with a specific study:
    “You might respond that contraception is accessible in lots of other ways. Unfortunately, that’s not true. Women’s health clinics provide vital medical services, but as the Guttmacher Institute has documented, clinics are unable to meet the crushing demand for these services. Clinics are closing and women are being forced to go without. How can Congress consider the Fortenberry, Rubio, and Blunt legislation that would allow even more employers and institutions to refuse contraceptive coverage and then respond that the non-profit clinics should step up to take care of the resulting medical crisis, particularly when so many legislators are attempting to defund those very same clinics?”
    Then backed it up with a specific example, one not identifying the purpose of birth control pills being used for contraception, but to treat ovarian cysts:
    “In the worst cases, women who need this medication for other medical reasons suffer dire consequences. A friend of mine, for example, has polycystic ovarian syndrome and has to take prescription birth control to stop cysts from growing on her ovaries.”
    And then specifically related it to the amendment being considered by the Republican controlled House:
    “…..under Senator Blunt’s amendment, Senator Rubio’s bill, or Representative Fortenberry’s bill, there’s no requirement that an exception be made for such medical needs. When they do exist, these exceptions don’t accomplish their well-intended goals because when you let university administrators or other employers, rather than women and their doctors, dictate whose medical needs are legitimate and whose aren’t, a woman’s health takes a back seat to a bureaucracy focused on policing her body.”
    And no where did Ms. Fluke say that contraception should be available with “no copay and no limits”.
    Correct me if I am wrong but is this not precisely the type of government interference with a decision of a doctor to treat a patient that conservatives have said they are against? Is this fear not the origin of the “death panel” claims made by some? So know you are supporting death panels if they suit your “….traditional cultural mores, especially as they are touted in the Judeo-Christian ethic”.
    Nothing could be less Christian, or for that matter more antithetical to the traditional American principle of equal protection, than supporting separate standards for health care coverage based on your personal cultural mores.
    And as George points out, if Congress can deny coverage for birth control does that not also set the precedent for them denying coverage for statins if someone eats fatty food, Viagra because it is not necessary, insulin if someone eats sugary foods their entire life, chemotherapy if someone works in a filed where they are exposed to carcinogens?
    In addition, Ms. Fluke does not mention her specific circumstances once in her testimony. No where does she talk about how she has sex, how often she has sex, with whom she has sex, whether she suffers from any similar circumstances where she may need to take birth control pills for a non-sexual health related reason.
    And yet you guys rush to protect a man who describes an individual testifying in front of Congress as a “slut” and a “prostitute”.
    No where is there mention of “having the state pay for the prophylactics used in sexual intercourse”, as George stated. No indication that “people like Ms Fluke will climb in bed with or without the proper contraception”, as George stated.
    George states this in his original post, “Here we have the case of a woman who admittedly screws so frequently with diverse partners that neither of them can be counted on, in the heat of the moment, to undertake their pleasures with proper preparation.” There is absolutely no evidence in Ms. Fluke’s testimony to support this statement, and if there were who’s business is it anyway? Sex is a fact of life. It is clearly covered under “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Do you want the government passing judgement on how often you screw? Don’t you all see how antithetical to your own stated conservative values this would be?
    No where do the critics here acknowledge that this is about what private insurance companies are required to cover, they perpetuate the fiction that this is about what “the state will pay for”. But the critics do put out a ton of false information, like the fiction that UnitedHealth Group, the private insurance company that covers Georgetown students, is “a Catholic insurance provider whose parent company is a Catholic Organization”.
    Amongst the most disturbing things here is how the regular posters allow false, misleading and intentionally defamatory content to stand.
    George, you should be ashamed of yourself for jumping on this ridiculous bandwagon. Not only is there no evidence to support your statements, they are mean spirited and cruel, and clearly designed to support punishing this woman publicly for stating her opinion by invitation in an appropriate forum. If this is not intentional intimidation I don’t know what is.
    I hope all of your daughter weigh in on this one, perhaps over the next Thanksgiving dinner. But they will probably shake their heads and hold their tongues, electing to value family peace over speaking truth to intolerance. After all, they can’t help it that their parents are out of touch with the world as it is rather than the world as they wish it to be.

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  5. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    It isn’t about entitlements its about power/ authority. Our government is supposed to representing all people and “We The People” are the ones who determine the standards of the day through our government. Government is supposed to be us not a separate entity. The numbers on this issue are that eight out of ten Americans support birth control pill and the numbers on contraception in general are about the same. The stance you and many on RR are taking are a very small minority of the population. Keep this issue alive and your numbers will diminish even more.
    Sunlight on the issues is the best disinfectant for those who hold anti-democratic views, the albatrosses around the necks of those who want to move forward.
    I encourage you all to keep speaking up about this issue.

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  6. George Rebane Avatar

    StevenF 1019am – Your message is still the same – excoriate the messenger. I beg to differ greatly with your interpretation of Fluke’s testimony, the entire point of which was to bring government to bear on paying for the most expensive prophylactics for people, including herself, who could not avail themselves to cheaper means to fill the same function. Else she would have sued the university or insurance company for breach of contract.
    Your moralizing is both inaccurate and rings hollow since you only join the cohort of fellow progressives who will not address my post’s stated and reinforced issue (which is NOT Ms Fluke, her specific needs or manifest charms).
    But no matter how brief your stay, welcome back.

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  7. John Galt Avatar

    I never did think it was such a good idea to give some unknown company, remote access to my computer to backup my data–so thankfully I never did subscribe to Carbonite.
    Besides, I figure if I just waited long enough, politicians in Washington DC would realize that I’m entitled to have my computer’s health insured.
    I do rely on my computer to conduct medical research, perform financial transactions, and to communication my emoitions. So it should be obvious that I am suffering FINANCIALLY, EMOTIONALLY, and MEDICALLY because of the lack of computer health coverage.
    And when I look around my town, I see the faces of the women and men affected by this lack of computer health coverage, and especially in the last week I have heard more and more stories of people who tell me they have also suffered FINANCIALLY, EMOTIONALLY, and MEDICALLY because of the lack lack of coverage.
    –John Galt

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  8. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE 1028am – great illustration of the progressives’ (your?) rationale in such discussions. Whatever does the notion or fact “that eight out of ten Americans support birth control pill and the numbers on contraception in general are about the same.” have anything to do with Ms Fluke’s testimony or the topic of my post??? We are here attempting to talk about the extension of government enforced/mandated/subsidized entitlements. The statistic about the public’s support of contraception as a means of preventing unwanted births is a separate matter (semantically orthogonal), capice?
    And I have no idea how your ‘we the people’ bit even comes close to the issue.

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  9. Steven Frisch Avatar

    I don’t see you taking Rush to task for “excoriate the messenger”. Clearly your standards are different based on closeness to your philosophy.
    If the case is not about Ms. Fluke perhaps you should not have posted this: “Here we have the case of a woman who admittedly screws so frequently with diverse partners that neither of them can be counted on, in the heat of the moment, to undertake their pleasures with proper preparation.”
    This statement is patently false, and cruel. It is a boldfaced lie.
    I also note you did not address the hypocrisy of supporting government interference in the choice of a woman and her doctor while opposing government interference in other cases. But then not addressing the core issues, whilst claiming others are not, is kind of your normal modus operandi.
    As far as the interpretation of Ms, Fluke’s testimony, I will count on the lurkers to actually read the testimony, and your lies, and the lies of your friends and regular posters, will be clear as a bell.
    My “stay” is over.

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  10. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Without insurance, the doctor’s visits to get the prescriptions and annual checkups might well make $3,000. Frish did an elegant job. With the exception of McGuire, this is an all male forum. As a member of a an extended family with lots of females, trust me, birth control is a right, to be guaranteed by the government, and an inexpensive one to implement, when the gov says, “produce at cheap prices, or we buy overseas, in bulk, or make it ourselves.”

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  11. billy T Avatar

    Steven Frisch is correct about one thing. It is I, Billy T, that wrote has “a Catholic insurance provider whose parent company is a Catholic Organization”. I was dead wrong on that one. Spent too many hours yesterday studying cases on this topic and confused the Catholic insurance provider whose parent organization is a Catholic Institution with the Georgetown case. Me bad, although I was delighted to be mentioned again on the Fat Boy’s bloggie. My 15 minutes of fame, albeit on a lefty blog full of lefty politicians run out of office. Well, beggars can’t be choosers. Right back at ya. The similarities between the Georgetown case and the other case all boil down to one thing. Separation of Church and State. Can’t get around it, “can’t pole vault over it, can’t parachute behind it” or whatever the Wicked Witch of the West Queen Nancy was quoted about Obamacare is a’coming whether you like it or not. Well, Nancy, what about the first amendment. Hey, Georgetown U requires all student to have health insurance. Read their entire health care coverage yesterday and even the options for full time profs. Most of would die for that kind of coverage. 100 buck for ER, waived if you are admitted, etc. Thank you again Mr. Firsche for pointing out my grievous error. Remember the 1st Amendment as you delight in removing God from the public square. That is a two edged sword. People ask me where was God in these school shooting. The reply is simple: He got expelled.

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  12. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    “The reply is simple: He got expelled. ”
    And who did the expelling? May I suggest the Quest for the All Mighty Shekel, at all levels has a lot to do with it?
    Everyone wants as good and low a price as they can get for any item.
    Every manufacturer wants to have a product that sells.
    Every manufacturer wants to get as much for himself as he can.
    Every manufacturer cuts costs by:
    fighting any form of taxation, including schools, and fees for inspections, regulations, etc
    lowering wages as much as possible
    lowering taxes by gaming the system every which way, and paying lobbyists to set up a very tilted playing field
    Thus employees are kept poor and stupid, and their kids come to school poorly equipped, attitude-wise, to learn anything. The kids who are able to learn, as a whole, come from the wealthier classes, who in part garner their wealth by hawking useless trinkets whose perceived value is enhanced by the steady drumbeat of advertising on the tv’s, so many use as a drug to escape their poorly paid lives.
    So who kicked God out of schools and allowed for school shootings? Just about everyone. Who has the power to change the situation the most? I’ll let you decide.

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  13. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    I wonder if whoever is paying Rush the $400,000,000 or so is now going to look to get out of the contract, and will be the number one supporter of Ms. Fluke’s legal retaliation team? Is slander a possible crime, more than just a civil offense, and thus punishable by jail time?

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  14. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK 1126am – “birth control is a right, to be guaranteed by the government.” Now you’re talking on topic! Thank you.
    That extreme position of assigning it to be a right sets a proper stake in the ground. And I presume it is a right established to serve the utilitarian sense I expressed in my 1131am above. (BTW, for semantic precision I understand ‘rights and privileges’ as defined here http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/03/rights-and-privileges.html )
    So in that same utilitarian sense of extending our QoL at a lower cost, when may we begin adding the rights for being supplied accoutrements of similar function – e.g. my running shoes and treadmill and … ?? Is there any end to the discovery of such new rights? If so, where or at what point are they to be circumscribed? We all know the obvious answer discovered in the USSR years ago – as soon as the other people’s money runs out, you will not get your pills, rubbers, shoes, adequate food, …, and most certainly, by that time your rights are already toast.

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  15. John Galt Avatar

    Good grief Doug: You’re seriously asking us to trust you as an expert on this topic based on the number of females in your extended family?
    –John Galt

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  16. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    You really support Rush?
    “Limbaugh first blasted Fluke on Wednesday: “What does it say about the college co-ed Fluke who goes before a congressional committee and essentially says that she must be paid to have sex. What does that make her? It makes her a slut, right? Makes her a prostitute. She wants to be paid to have sex.”
    Limbaugh, an influential conservative commentator known for his take-no-prisoners style and shocking comments, is one of the most listened-to radio talk-show hosts in the country.
    “If we are going to pay for your contraceptives, thus pay for you to have sex, we want something for it, and I’ll tell you what it is: we want you to post the videos online so we can all watch,” he added, repeating the slurs again on Thursday.
    Fluke said Limbaugh’s comments were meant to silence women who spoke out about their health care needs, but the attack had failed.
    “It’s clear from the voices that we’ve heard from all over the country that women and the men who support them are not going to be silenced on this issue,” said Fluke, who plans to take the bar exam in California and continue her advocacy work for women after graduating from law school in May.
    Fluke told lawmakers in a Democratic House hearing on February 23 that female students at Georgetown, the oldest Catholic and Jesuit university in the country, suffered financial hardship because contraception was not covered by their healthcare insurance and in some cases had stopped taking it because it cost too much money.
    Georgetown University President John DeGioia said the debate over the contraceptives policy was a legitimate one, but he blasted the comments of Limbaugh and others as “behavior that can only be described as misogynistic, vitriolic, and a misrepresentation of the position of our student.”
    Fluke said she had not ruled out suing Limbaugh for slander, but was focused on the policy debate for now.”

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  17. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    John Galt, have yet to see female here supporting Rush. Good luck finding one. Unless maybe Bonnie McGuire really hasn’t had a good look at Rush wife #4*, and is still holding onto sex addiction as if it was a common incurable disease. “but sex addiction creates unwanted human beings”
    * http://the-reaction.blogspot.com/2012/03/i-am-rush-limbaughs-wife.html
    What a gem! Reflects his values perfectly!

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  18. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK 1225pm – it seems you’re beginning to lose focus again. This is not a forum where the issue is men or women “supporting Rush”, “taking Rush to task”, “sex addiction”, and other such niceties.

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  19. Michael Anderson Avatar

    Dear “John Galt,”
    Your clever comparison of computer health coverage with human health coverage is a false analogy. So, not even a nice try.
    Dear Todd,
    I won’t respond to any of your comments if they contain non sequiturs, name-calling, misogyny, and/or childish taunts. You did bring up one point that I will address, however, and that is whether government should be allowed to regulate health care: Horse. Left. Barn. Already.
    Look, if you really want to get rid of PPACA then you can’t stop there. Medicare, VA Hospitals, Medi-Cal, and Medicaid–they ALL need to go.
    If the Commerce Clause says we can regulate the Interstate Highway System, then for pete’s sake we can sure enough regulate the health care industry. I’m willing to have a debate about how best to do that because it’s a very complicated issue. But as for whether the federal gov’t has any jurisdiction over national health care, we’ll just have to wait for the Supreme Court to decide. And if they say no: They. Are. Wrong.
    Michael A.

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  20. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 1236pm – “If the Commerce Clause says we can regulate the Interstate Highway System, then for pete’s sake we can sure enough regulate the health care industry.” Is that a bridge too far, or just to nowhere?

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  21. billy T Avatar

    Well, Doug, I have to agree with Dr. Rebane that is good you finally came out and declared birth control is a right”. Good , now that is cleared up. My question is birth control a right at a Jesuit University? Ms. Fluke, or any Georgetown U student/employee can go see a doctor with her insurance plan. The doctor can write a script for her after a pelvic exam and usually an venereal disease exam. Then she can go to a pharmacy. Her RX benefits do not cover the script, so she has to pay out of pocket. Are her rights violated? Poor women can get a script for birth control pills without even seeing a real Dr, usually by going to a clinic and seeing the Nurse Practitioner. Heck, my neighbor’s daughter got some pills by going up to the Health Department or some low cost place without even using her Doc, who is down in Auburn. I understand well how young people get in such a hurry. But I digress. Is fire protection a right? Suppose the firetruck is delayed while the house is burning. Are your “rights” violated? The Supreme Court has ruled that a Catholic School or other religious group can fire folks for violating Church doctrine/long held religious beliefs and fair firing practices be damned. Remember that case in New Mexico when the State employee drug counselor was fired for being high? It was overturned and he got his job back. Why? Because his “religion” practiced smoking heavy doses of Peyote, thus the State crossed the time and violated his religious practices and discriminated against him. There is a special firewall between Church and State that supersedes the students “right” to birth control or even firing a drug counselor high on Peyote. Now, if you want to discuss rights in the public sector or the population at large, I am all ears. PS: still smarting over your dog and I hope you are OK. The news of your beloved dog struck me like a knife as we both love dogs.

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  22. Paul Emery Avatar

    George you wrote this about Ms Fluke without any information that she indeed did “admittedly” say those things.
    ” a woman who admittedly screws so frequently with diverse partners that neither of them can be counted on, in the heat of the moment, to undertake their pleasures with proper preparation.”
    Later you wrote:
    “Nowhere have I commented on or judged Ms Fluke’s character…..”
    05 March 2012 at 08:59 AM
    George, if accusing someone of admittedly “screwing” multiple partners with no information to justify that opinion isn’t character assassination than I don’t know what is. George, my friend, you are wrong on this one and you should fess up to it. It has nothing to do with your well expressed opinion about “entitlement creep” that from your campfires is a legitimate discussion.

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  23. billy T Avatar

    Doug, about rights. For arguments sake, suppose I have a right to public education. But the school district wants me to pay a bit for the bus ride cause I live out in the boonies. Are my rights violated? I have a right to attend a Nevada City school, but do I have a right for free transportation to and from the school campus? What about Sierra College? Suppose the class I want is full. Are my rights violated? Suppose I want to go to UC Berkley or Davis, but the classes are full or enrollment is closed for this year. So, I look around and find the only campuses that will accept me are the new ones in Bakersfield or Channel Islands. But, I want to stay close to my Alamo. Are my rights violated? Suppose I want to attend Gonzaga U in Spokane on a basketball scholarship. I am given free room and board and tuition paid. But, the campus does not cover free rubbers for me or my sex partner. I can argue that an unplanned pregnancy would disrupt my life and that of my girlfriend’s degree aspirations. I can argue that everybody is sleeping around and it cheaper to prevent a pregnancy. I can argue that all the nice Catholic co-eds use contraception. I can argue that people on Welfare get free/low cost birth control pills. I can argue and argue until the cows come home, but the place I choose to attend does not include birth control devices/pills in their RX plan. Are my rights violated? What are my rights? I know I have a right to free speech (with new limitations) and the right of free association and the right to worship as I please or not worship at all. There are other rights and restrictions such as commercial speech, which is not free speech at all.

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  24. Steven Frisch Avatar

    This is ridiculous, the issue is not whether “birth control is a right”, the question is whether health insurance, under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act should cover contraceptives at religious institutions engaged in non-religious functions, or whether Congress, through amendment, should allow limiting coverage for contraceptives.
    That is what Ms. Fluke was testifying on.
    No one has answered my question—is this not PRECISELY what conservatives critiqued the ACA on? Is this not the origin of the “death panel” nonsense? That some care would be denied based on political or unwarranted financial considerations?
    Essentially, when the Catholic Church employs or serves non-Catholics and performs non-religious functions, it needs to offer all the same rights and protections that non-religious institutions are required to provide. That is the law. Being a student is a non-religious function. That’s why Blunt and others are proposing to amend the law. They are proposing taking away an existing right.
    If I am an employee, or student, at Georgetown, I am guaranteed the same rights under the law as any other American citizen, under the equal protection clause.
    The rights of conscience of particular Catholics, and of the Catholic Church collectively to believe and worship as it wishes, should not extend to a right to encumber the free exercise of conscience of everyone who they employ for non-religious functions. This is intrusive and authoritarian. If I am not a Catholic I should be free to work at or go to school at a Catholic institution. I personally know many non-Catholics who went to Notre Dame, Marquette and DePaul. There are more than 200 Catholic colleges and universities in the United States. This law would affect hundreds of thousands (if not over a million) of students and employees. If the Roman Catholic Church (or any other church) wants its employees, or its students—even the non-Catholic ones—to honor its moral dictates then it should trust them to freely obey.
    I suspect the whole thing is moot now anyway. Republicans have just totally lost the independent women’s vote, and thus the Presidential election, due to their hubris, and consequently President Obama will get the next one or two Supreme Court appointments and this amendment, if passed, would be tested and tossed.
    (By the way Paul, you are absolutely right, George smeared Ms. Fluke, and he should admit his un-Christian act and repent, just as Bill T did, to his credit, above).
    P.S. My wife is going to kill me for posting here!

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  25. Paul Emery Avatar

    Here’s a good question to add to the conversation. Should a person who is a pacifist by religion be required to pay taxes that support war?

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  26. billy T Avatar

    Got to love it. We all have different opinions coming from our various and sundry life experiences http://www.realfunpictures.com/hooters-girls-own-protesters-5014/

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  27. Gregory Avatar

    “Greg,
    What gives you any say when Ms Fluke is prime to start a family?”
    It’s not me, Ben, it’s the calendar and human physiology; the biological clock is ticking. Early 30’s sees a decline in fertility rate, with it running less than half of the rate in their 20’s by around age 35. By 40 the odds are getting very steep.
    At 30, she’s young by my standards, but not by human reproductive biology.

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  28. Gregory Avatar

    “P.S. My wife is going to kill me for posting here!”
    I’ll believe that when I read it in The Union.
    “Essentially, when the Catholic Church employs or serves non-Catholics and performs non-religious functions, it needs to offer all the same rights and protections that non-religious institutions are required to provide.”
    I’m trying to find that enumerated “right” in the Constitution. Any hints?

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  29. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 105pm – it is always a puzzle as to why a person of liberal leanings, who putatively does not attach a moral judgment to the frequency of sex, does readily accuse another (especially conservative) of doing so when they claim (correctly or incorrectly) that someone does have frequent sex. I concluded from reports of her not being served by more slowly applied prophylactics that her sexual activity was frequent. This was no character assassination to anyone of an open mind who does not equate character with screwing frequency. Apparently you do.
    Now, you may argue that inference about such frequency from my secondary sources was erroneous, or my secondary sources were in error. That is another matter to which I would readily admit error, should that be shown. But I do sincerely believe that you may still harbor some latent puritanical attitudes about an adverse relationship of intercourse frequency to character. Such an interpretation, of course, is your right. But please don’t accuse me of having made it in this post – it is you and your ideological fellow travelers here who have introduced that connection.
    Re your 135pm – that is indeed a good question and there is large literature on it (just google ‘pacifist paying for war’). But before leaping into it, I’d ask you to expand on its relationship to the current topic were the answer YES or NO (or even depending on some contingency). In other words, what conclusion would you draw to state mandates on prophylactics cost sharing to sharing the costs of war.
    I do understand where you want to go with this, and I’d rather have the landscape laid out before heading into these woods where the shared cost of one thing in society will be argued by the collectivist (using analytical continuation) that therefore the cost of all conceivable things can and should be shared.

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  30. Gregory Avatar

    “Doug, about rights. For arguments sake, suppose I have a right to public education. But the school district wants me to pay a bit for the bus ride cause I live out in the boonies. Are my rights violated? I have a right to attend a Nevada City school, but do I have a right for free transportation to and from the school campus? What about Sierra College? Suppose the class I want is full. Are my rights violated? Suppose I want to go to UC Berkley or Davis, but the classes are full or enrollment is closed for this year.”
    For argument’s sake, if a school district fails, like the GVSD failed last year, to have more than ONE student out of 171 8th graders reported Advanced in 8th grade algebra and very few even Proficient, have all those student’s rights been violated?
    They will most likely never catch up, and will be behind if they even manage to get into college and want to attempt to major in a math intensive subject.

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  31. Gregory Avatar

    “”Essentially, when the Catholic Church employs or serves non-Catholics and performs non-religious functions, it needs to offer all the same rights and protections that non-religious institutions are required to provide.”
    Let’s examine this one more closely… does Steven Frisch, CEO of the misnamed Sierra Business Council, claim that Mt.St.Mary’s Academy in Grass Valley and Forest Lake Christian High should be forced to provide insurance coverage for birth control and abortions for all of their employees?

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  32. Steven Frisch Avatar

    The power is enumerated in the constitution under both the general welfare and the equal protection clauses.
    The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) passed Congress and was signed into law by President Obama. PPACA passed the Senate on December 24, 2009, by a vote of 60–39 with all Democrats and two Independents voting for, and all Republicans voting against. It passed the House of Representatives on March 21, 2010, by a vote of 219–212, with 34 Democrats and all 178 Republicans voting against the bill. When a law is passed in the United States it is in effect. Unless, or until, it is overturned by the Supreme Court of the United States, it is the law of the land. The PACA establishes the right to enforce the rules as defined by the law.
    The Blunt amendment proposes to restrict that right:
    http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/292318-s-1813-amendment.html#document/p5/a44791
    …start reading at page 5 line 7-22.
    The Blunt amendment failed to pass Congress and be signed into law by the President.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/birth-control-exemption-bill-the-blunt-amendment-killed-in-senate/2012/03/01/gIQA4tXjkR_story.html
    You may disagree with it, but if you do, the process for challenging it is through the courts.
    Consequently the PPACA is the law, and due to the point that it was passed under constitutional standards, it is constitutional, unless determined otherwise. It’s really that simple.

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  33. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Greg to keep things on the up and up perhaps you should refrain from mentioning my professional affiliation. When I post here I am doing so as an individual.
    But the answer is, yes, if people are employed by these institutions (Mt.St.Mary’s Academy in Grass Valley and Forest Lake Christian High), and insured by these institutions, and are employed in a non-religious function, they should be required to provide health insurance consistent with existing US law, just as any other employer would.

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  34. Steven Frisch Avatar

    George Rebane: “Now, you may argue that inference about such frequency from my secondary sources was erroneous, or my secondary sources were in error. That is another matter to which I would readily admit error, should that be shown.”
    Now that is a Rush Limbaugh style apology if I have ever heard one. You are in essence saying, “I challenge you to prove the negative.” It is not up to us to prove the negative. It is up to you to prove the positive.
    Since the primary source material has no statement about frequency of sexual intercourse, it is up to you to admit your sin and repent!
    I would say it is pretty clear that before you made your statements you did not read the primary source material. Why can’t you just admit that and move on?

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  35. George Rebane Avatar

    “… and are employed in a non-religious function” as determined by whom? That is where things start getting both fuzzy and slippery. The cited institutions, from a Christian perspective, are a religious ministry in toto. What bureaucrat would be qualified, other than by fiat, to come and dissect the enterprise into that which must be rendered to God and to Caesar?

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  36. Michael Anderson Avatar

    George wrote: “Is that a bridge too far, or just to nowhere?”
    George, you and I have been agreeing to disagree on this issue for almost a year now. I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine. We’ll just have to wait for the Supreme Court to make its ruling.
    If the Supreme Court allows the mandate, then we’ll be done talking about this for a long, long time. Today’s young American citizens, once they move into the electorate, will form a voting bloc that will prevent a revisiting of this issue for three generations. By then, universal health care will be so ingrained in our society that getting rid of it will be almost unthinkable.
    If SCOTUS throws out the mandate, I can guarantee you it will come up for another vote within a decade. This incoming generation is radically inclusive and wildly intolerant of inequality, injustice, inefficient/broken-down systems.

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  37. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 228pm – No apology yet intended – Limbaugh style or otherwise. I’m not asking anyone to “prove the negative”. I’ve given the reasoning for my high frequency inference, and admitted to its potential error. However, no one has yet shown Ms Fluke’s need for expensive 24/7 protection for reasons other than that the frequent bother of cheaper slower methods. Mind you, I’m not saying one does not exist, but dredging it up just places the explanation next to mine and allows the reader to judge the relative plausibility of each.
    Steve, you’re back here bashing me and others like me again. Try to contribute to the topic – it’s not Ms Fluke’s sex habits no matter how I may or not have characterized them. Aren’t there loftier discussions on FUE’s blog for the more high minded to partake?

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  38. Gregory Avatar

    George, the right to life, liberty and the making of unlimited whoopee is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.
    Frisch, the general welfare clause doesn’t fit this (the Feds forcing schools operated by churches to buy insurance for faculty and students that provides free contraceptives and abortions seems awfully specific, not general), nor does the equal protection clause (IIRC Bob Jones U can still . I think you’re forgetting the real claim, which is the one size fits all Interstate Commerce clause.
    IIRC the Feds successfully used the Equal Protection clause to revoke the tax advantage the racist Bob Jones University had as a charitable institution, but couldn’t force BJU to stop their racist ways. So why do you think that clause can be used to force Catholic institutions to fund and perform abortions?
    The legal challenges are just beginning, with that pesky and usually ignored 10th Amendment waiting in the background.

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  39. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA 239pm – Right you are. And what is scarier is that your assessment of the “incoming generation” as being “radically inclusive and wildly intolerant of inequality, injustice, inefficient/broken-down systems” might be spot on, and doubled down on their inherent (through public education) inability to see solutions anywhere except pie-in-the-sky socialism.
    The only error I see in your picture is that this “incoming generation” is so homogeneously ignorant, that it doesn’t have a subset of minds that see other possibilities for fixing such “inefficient/broken-down systems.” There I sincerely hope you are wrong. And that brings up the Great Divide question, will your new generation peaceably let go of the new generation in which I and mine place our hope?
    Gregory 245pm – Agreed.

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  40. Gregory Avatar

    Steven Frisch, CEO of the misnamed Sierra Business Council, I understand and accept your positions here are yours and not necessarily those of the Sierra Business Council.
    I think it’s on the up and up to mention your affiliation.
    When the Congress passes an unconstitutional bill that is signed into law, it is the right and responsibility of the people to resist it. In the case of the regulations causing the chafing, iirc they aren’t actually all in the original bill, not that anyone outside of a small circle of Nancy and Harry’s friends got to read and pretend to understand that abomination before it passed. They’re post facto regulations being promulgated by the executive branch as a result of the statute. Even better for disobedience. Agnostic dittos to the Catholic Church.

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  41. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Re: George Rebane | 05 March 2012 at 02:30 PM
    Under the Equal Employment Opportunity Act, if a persons position qualifies for a “Ministerial Exception” to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 they are considered employed in a religious function. A “Ministerial Exception” is defined in US lay by the case Alcazar v. The Corporation of the Catholic Archbishop of Seattle.
    http://slotelaw.com/education-law/articles/ministerial-exception-title-vii-protects-religious-institutions-when-they-hir
    If they are not, they are considered employed in a non-religious function.
    Otherwise, all those responsible for non-religious functions are covered under the “common rule”.
    These functions are laid out in Title IX of the Civil Rights Act as amended in 1972:
    “Under the Title IX common rule, a recipient must not discriminate on the basis of sex in providing health and insurance benefits or services. Specifically, the provision of such benefits and services to students must meet the same requirements as outlined in the employee provisions of the common rule. 65 Fed. Reg. at 52873-52874. However, these provisions do not prohibit a recipient from providing any benefit or service that may be used by a different proportion of students of one sex than of the other, including family planning services. However, any recipient that provides full coverage health service must provide gynecological care. 65 Fed. Reg. at 52872.”
    http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/cor/coord/ixlegal.php#8.%C2%A0%20Health%20and%20insurance%20benefits%20and%20services%20%28%C2%A7%20.440%29
    So, in short George, the definition is laid out in the law, and once again, want to change the law…do it!

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  42. Gregory Avatar

    One of the time honored ways to change bad laws are to ignore them and dare the authorities to take action, giving you an right to challenge them in court.
    How soon after one of their own gets into the Presidency does the Left forget the basics.

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  43. Steven Frisch Avatar

    George, my posts have been equally as respectful as yours and fellow posters. I believe I have pretty effectively proved the “false, misleading and intentionally defamatory content” I referenced. I would challenge you to show me how I am ‘bashing you and others like you again’. I think your just not used to reasoned, rational, sourced responses.
    Gregory: health care (PPACA) fits under general welfare; extending health care to students equally and providing equal services is covered under equal protection. Definition of whom what services are extended to and at what standard are sourced above in my last post to George. Until the Catholic church protest (by the way they are not protesting anymore, they have reached an agreement with the President, it is politicians who are protesting by trying to pass the amendment, and they just LOST)is successful the law stands. If you want to make your point you may want to cite case law to make your point, otherwise its really just “he said, she said”, and your my…..

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  44. Brad Croul Avatar

    The phrases, “provide for the common defense”, and “promote the general Welfare” in the Preamble to the Constitution are open to some interpretation.
    When the Constitution was written, overpopulation and the cost of medical care was not an issue, but it is now. The Constitution gives us some guidelines, but times change. Does birth control fit in with “promoting the general Welfare”?
    Could overpopulation actually be a national security issue? How do we clothe, feed, and house all these people, with more on the way due to lack of education and/or contraception availability/affordability, without the jobs now being lost to robotics and foreign outsourcing of jobs?
    To the notion of where do you draw the line,
    maybe we should also limit the level of government sponsored medical care for retirees to only that level of sophistication that was available when they reached the age of maturity and started contributing to Social Security, or joined the military. We could throw in antibiotics as a good will gesture for those born before they were widely available. But no more hip transplants, organ transplants, heart bypasses,dialysis, chemo, etc. through the VA or Medicare. Why should citizens who had no expectation of the medical advances we have seen over the last 50 years now be entitled to them at government expense?
    Going forward, citizens would be given a menu with the Basic Plan (cheaper) good for infections, broken bones and everyday outpatient procedures. The Deluxe health plan would cost more but would include all the transplants, bypasses, etc. and a resuscitation clause.
    Would our health care system then become sustainable and affordable again?

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  45. Steven Frisch Avatar

    By the way George, is it considered respectful for Gregory to preface his comments to me with “the misnamed Sierra Business Council”?

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  46. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Just to be clear, I am not referring to the General Welfare clause as it appears in the preamble, I am referring to the general Welfare clause as it appears in Article 1 Section 8, Clause 1 of the Constitution of the United States….
    “The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;…”

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  47. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    So I guess SteveF is on vacation since he is posting on a Monday during business hours? That $100,000 salary is calling you. Here is what Thomas Jefferson said about the General Welare Clause.
    “Thomas Jefferson explained the latter general welfare clause for the United States: “[T]he laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They [Congress] are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose.”[7]”
    The idea of the clause was to deal with the United States government, not the ability of the taxpayer to pay for condoms. What is fascinating to me as well is the 180 degree difference in how we see things and how wrong the liberal mind is.
    I have actually seen polling and some features of the youth coming up that give me some hope. They are seeing how messed up the country has become with spendthrift government and over regulations of the liberal nanny state. Frisch is a prime example of the kinds of people taking the tax money and we never see it again. Things will change as soon as we stop making the employer be the tax collector and the bureaucracy then has to be the collector. As soon as the tax bill is due after no withholding all year, there will be a middle class taxpayer revolution.

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  48. Steven Frisch Avatar

    Talk about changing the subject Todd, first you agree that we should interfere with a woman’s body, now you think you have a right to question my time of work. So much for being a libertarian, eh?
    Hey George, you gonna keep Todd, “on the topic”?

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  49. Michael Anderson Avatar

    George asked: “And that brings up the Great Divide question–will your new generation peaceably let go of the new generation in which I and mine place our hope?”
    “Your” generation and “my” generation? Don’t you and I both place our hope in the same generation? Sorry if I’m being thick…
    Todd, I agree that business should be the tax collector of last resort. But you will never get rid of withholding, that is a pipe dream. Similar to the pipe dream of taxpayers voting directly for how their tax dollars are spent.

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  50. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 326pm – I think I’ll just let this comment of yours answer your ‘bashing’ question – I couldn’t give a more clear answer. Regarding your proof of the nature of my content, I believe it to be beyond redemption. We established long ago that our individual views of history and elements of proof are maximally incompatible. You’re here to present your ideologically interpreted reality to the undecided readers, and snide remarks within reason, you have access to this forum.
    Re Gregory’s “misnamed Sierra Business Council” – he is being too kind. I have long and more correctly referred to SBC as being cynically named since by any and all measures I judge it to be a promoter of progressive causes and propaganda funded by the public and benefactors of similar mind. And I do resent the public funding component. But all that is another matter between you and Gregory, I have spoken my piece.

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