Rebane's Ruminations
December 2011
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George Rebane

On the surface it just looks like more congressional bickering.  But the two current versions of the payroll tax bills have written in things which go beyond the 'kick the can' capers that the Dems are promoting and the Repubs are fighting.  Our congressman Tom McClintock peeled back a bit of the sleaze to quietly re-fund Fannie and Freddie through these pieces of legislative legerdemain.  (Some useful idiots still argue that Fannie and Freddie are not government departments.)  He made the following speech on the House floor today.

The Problem with Both Payroll Bills
House Chamber, Washington, D.C.
December 20, 2011

Mr. Speaker:

In all this debate, I fear both parties have missed a critical point.  

Both versions of this bill impose a permanent new tax on every mortgage backed by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

To pay for an additional two months of tax relief under the Senate version or 12 months under the House version, more than $3,000 of new taxes will be imposed on every $150,000 mortgage backed by Fannie or Freddie.

A family taking out a $250,000 mortgage will pay $5,000 more in taxes – directly and solely because of this bill – hidden in their future mortgage payments.

This is atrocious public policy.  It shifts the burden for this bill to future homebuyers, kicks the housing market when it’s already down, makes it that much more expensive for home buyers to re-enter that market, and adds to the pressures that have chronically depressed everyone’s home values.

That’s the reason that both the Senate and the House versions need to go back for major revision.

Posted in , , ,

108 responses to “Both payroll tax bills stink”

  1. We Can Work Together Avatar

    I can see the both sides of this.
    The Republican congressman from Utah is challenging Republican senators on this bill. The Republican senators are on vacation now. It appears the Utah congressman is being a citizen congressman on this issue and I applaud him for it. It might come at great cost to him personally — vacations are sacrosanct.
    Democratic senators and congresspeople are hoping the spotlight will stay on the Republican imbroglio — they also don’t want anyone messing with their vacations.
    I think Obama made a good political play by focusing on vacations. Let’s see how it works itself out.
    Michael Anderson

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  2. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    We are living in the Twilight Zone. The HOR passes a bill and sends it to the Senate, The Senate makes changes and sends it back to the HOR. SOP is a conference committee to iron out the differences. Senate says adios we are outta here. HOR says “wait”! We need a conference. Senate Democrats say “up yours” pass our bill which actually is yours which we modified. Somehow this becomes a problem for the R’s! Do do do Do.

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  3. Paul Emery Avatar

    It’s the R’s insistence in including the XL pipeline as part of the vote that’s holding things up. That’s an entirely unrelated subject and should not be part of this deliberation. This is what is known as an unrelated rider, another word for hostage. According to the State Department it is probably not legal since it bypasses required procedures. Whether you like it or not these procedures are the law and must be followed for legislation to be valid.
    “Should Congress impose an arbitrary deadline for the permit decision, its actions would not only compromise the process, it would prohibit the Department from acting consistently with National Environmental Policy Act requirements,” the State Department said, according to the Huffington Post. “In the absence of properly completing the process, the Department would be unable to make a determination to issue a permit for this project.”
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/12/keystone-xl-state-department_n_1144570.html?1323732302&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008

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  4. Gregory Avatar

    There’s always bundles. Remember Pelosi’s ‘we need to pass the bill in order to see what’s in it’ over health care?
    A pipeline will be built, either down to the largest refinery complex in the world, in Texas, or entirely on Canadian soil over to BC’s Pacific coast where the oil can be tankered off to Asia. Take your pick.

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  5. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    The boys and girls are caving as I write this.

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  6. Gregory Avatar

    Regarding Keystone, it’s Obvious the Administration doesn’t want to be seen to kill the project, perceived as anti-commerce and anti-jobs, and doesn’t want to approve it lest they tick off the hard left anti-petroleum core voters they need to be showing some enthusiasm next November. Sitting on their collective hands, kicking the can down the road is their choice.

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  7. Paul Emery Avatar

    They’ll be able to do that because of the regs that require State Dept approval to comply with NEPA requirements. That will easily extend it till 2013 for final approval.
    The R’s in the House took a pretty good whomping on this one with even the WSJ and Carl Rove jumping on them. They need a break. 2012 will be a tough year for the House Freshmen and the Grover drones. It will be fun.

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  8. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Grover’s Groover* Movers will packing up and looking for some other place to dump.
    *Please reference river rafting to make appropriate connection for terminology used here.

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  9. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, the fraudulent CO2 endangerment finding is a wrong that is yet to be corrected, but will. And Keystone will be hard to kill.

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  10. Paul Emery Avatar

    I’m sure it will be hard to kill because of the millions of dollars of special interest money supporting it. My contention is that the process for approval that is in place now will delay any decision for at least a year and a half.

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  11. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    How many of the Grover drones ran on the notion of throwing the old career guys out, and replacing them, and doing the same to them in two years time? Guess what, time’s up! Out you go, or stay on as a hypocrite hoisted by your own petard.
    In 2012 , it’s time to expel, the GOP freshmen, for hazing the poor and middle classes.

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  12. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, if by “special interests” you mean everyone who uses and benefits from affordable fuels, yes, there’s special interest money in play here.

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  13. Paul Emery Avatar

    This was an easy example to find about the Koch brothers usintg their influence.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/10/idUS292515702420110210
    “The company’s website says it is “among Canada’s largest crude oil purchasers, shippers and exporters.” Koch Industries also owns Koch Exploration Canada, L.P., an oil sands-focused exploration company also based in Calgary that acquires, develops and trades petroleum properties………..
    The Koch brothers are not run-of-the-mill political opponents. An investigative report last year by the New Yorker magazine on the secretive and deep-pocketed pair have shown them to be “waging a war against Obama.” They have bankrolled the Tea Party movement, climate change skepticism and right-wing think tanks, such as the Cato Institute, the Heritage Foundation, the Competitive Enterprise Institute and the National Center for Policy Analysis.

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  14. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Merry Christmas to the Koch Brothers. True American patriots!

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  15. Gregory Avatar

    Paul, so what? Name a billionaire Democrat who doesn’t throw money into their favorite groups!
    I think it would be just fine if the Koch’s would give more money to Cato and Reason. Even CEI. Double or triple. Great idea.

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  16. Paul Emery Avatar

    Yeah Todd Real sweethearts the Koch Brothers. You’re kind of guys
    “In regards to the sales to Iran, the company made them through foreign subsidiaries, thwarting a U.S. trade ban. The company’s products helped build a methanol plant for Zagros Petrochemical Co., a unit of Iran’s state-owned National Iranian Petrochemical Company. The facility, in the coastal city of Bandar Assaluyeh, is now the largest methanol plant in the world, according to IHS Inc., an Englewood, Colorado-based provider of chemicals, energy and economic data.
    “Every single chance they had to do business with Iran, or anyone else, they did,” George Bentu, a former Koch engineer, says.”
    http://www.huliq.com/3257/koch-brothers-elbow-deep-corruption-and-murky-deals-iran

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  17. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Why thanks PaulE, they are my kind of guys. Successful capitalists, they support freedom with their riches, have a large philanthropic arm and are proud to be Americans. Your buddy George Soros and your favorite President, Obummer, are the exact opposite. So, it would appear you have the lame relationships, not me.

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  18. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Well Todd, glad to know you support the Milo Minderbinder mentality so well illustrated in Joseph Heller’s “Catch -22.”

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  19. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Koch Brothers are patriots so what is your point?

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  20. Gregory Avatar

    And Soros waged war agin’ Bush. So what?
    The world’s largest refinery is run by Dr.R.Pachauri’s patron. The fact that the IPCC’s work gives them a competitive advantage is secondary. Yep. No doubt. You bet.

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  21. Paul Emery Avatar

    Patriots don’t do illegal business with our enemies. See my post above.

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  22. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    It was explained and you are just desperate. You probably think GE and Jeffry Immellt (Obama’s bud) are patriots. No, the Koch Brothers are patriots, they just support the opposite ideas of yours, but hey ain’t America great!

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  23. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Todd, did Patriots sell war materials to the Germans during WWII? You have a funny vision of a Patriot.

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  24. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    PaulE, I checked out your link and did some research and I’ll be darned if I can’t seem to find out anything about the fellow who owns the internet link you placed here. His name is Armen Hareyan and he seems to be a ghost. So I would be careful using links to people or websites no one can check for their political background.
    Keachie, I think you are misguided.

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  25. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Well, the feeling is mutual, Todd At lkeast it is one thing we have in common. Do you like Irish coffee?

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  26. Gregory Avatar

    Golly Paul, Obama’s Justice Department has had almost three years to make a case against the dastardly Kochs. How’s that coming along?
    But innuendo is so much more fun, eh?

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  27. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    If the Koch brothers went out and got drunk, would they be hoochie-koochie men?

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  28. Gregory Avatar

    Behold, the deep thinking from a bona fide public school teacher. Doing your profession proud, Keach.
    Get any good pictures of Pelline at Cornish Christmas last night?

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  29. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    The Koch brothers probably own the brewery and they take their profits and send them to conservative organizations. Ain’t America great!

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  30. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Well Koch sells Brawny and Northern paper products, which we do not buy, but which are on sale (marked down) now at SPD. I wonder how many other follow the money and have chosen to cut it off too? As for Jeff Pelline and Howard Levine, you can find them in the most recent Christmas set on the left, here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/keachie/collections/72157627003553262/

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  31. Paul Emery Avatar

    Todd
    Here’s more on your buddies and American patriots the Koch brothers. This time from Bloomberg. Is that legit enough for you?
    “A Bloomberg Markets investigation has found that Koch Industries — in addition to being involved in improper payments to win business in Africa, India and the Middle East — has sold millions of dollars of petrochemical equipment to Iran, a country the U.S. identifies as a sponsor of global terrorism.
    The ‘Koch Method’
    Internal company documents show that the company made those sales through foreign subsidiaries, thwarting a U.S. trade ban. Koch Industries units have also rigged prices with competitors, lied to regulators and repeatedly run afoul of environmental regulations, resulting in five criminal convictions since 1999 in the U.S. and Canada. ”
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-02/koch-brothers-flout-law-getting-richer-with-secret-iran-sales.html

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  32. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Already explained so keep trying. They are patriots toe ideals of America, sort of a mirror image of your bud Obama and Clinton. You know, the Prez who sold our rocket secrets for cash to a Chinese general. Yep, just like them, oh sure..

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  33. Paul Emery Avatar

    Can you document Clinton’s cash sales of rocket secrets to a Chinese General?

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  34. Paul Emery Avatar

    Here’s more about the American Patriots you so admire, Todd, did you actually read the article I linked to?
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-02/koch-brothers-flout-law-getting-richer-with-secret-iran-sales.html
    “federal grand jury issued a 97-count indictment against Koch Petroleum Group, Mietlicki and three refinery managers on Sept. 28, 2000. Koch Petroleum Group pleaded guilty to a felony charge of lying to the government about its benzene emissions in April 2001.
    Judge Jack fined Koch Petroleum $10 million and ordered that it pay another $10 million to fund environmental projects in south Texas. Koch earned $176 million in profit from the Corpus Christi plant in 1995, prosecutors told the court. The company said in a hearing that it would have cost $7 million to comply with the benzene emission regulation. “

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  35. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    The Kochs are patriots and your stories are old and worn out PaulE. Life is a balance and the scale tips way to the right and good. They paid their fines and stopped the trading. Why don’t you travel to their headquarters for a pow-wow.

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  36. Gregory Avatar

    Koch Industries owns Flint Hills, the 17th largest refinery in the world… not exactly a monopoly position. In this list of the largest refineries, ExxonMobil has 10 times their capacity.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_refineries#World.27s_largest_refineries
    Regarding the Iran sales, they apparently happened when it was legal for subsidiaries to make such sales as long as Americans were not involved and the company took steps to assure that. The law changed, and they follow the new law, too.
    As far as I can tell, none of the legal troubles implicate the Koch brothers directly. Paul, is that also your understanding?
    Now Soros actually has a personal conviction for insider trading, in France, and amassed his fortune not by actually producing goods and services but by currency manipulations. Is that to be admired?

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  37. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    PaulE likes Soros. never a word of criticism. That is why there is no veracity in his outrage. Soros made a few hundred million in the last few weeks on the troubles with the Euro. What a guy.

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  38. Paul Emery Avatar

    I’m suprised Todd that you are such a fan of the Koch bros. They were stridently against the Iraq invasion, support gay marriage and stem cell research, and push for the decriminalization of marijuana. True American patriots right Todd.

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  39. Paul Emery Avatar

    Todd, Gregory. Please verify that I have never expressed affection for Soros on these pages. To pull that out of the hat to distract the discussion is a a pretty obvious cop out. I am opposed to the influence of big money on either side.

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  40. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    PaulE, it is a liberal trait to reject someone for a one or two issue activity. The Koch brothers put their money where their mouths are and support causes I agree with in the most part. There is no one on earth I totally agree with so your incredulity is laughable.

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  41. Gregory Avatar

    I’ve no idea if you have or have not, Paul. I do find it curious you pummel the Kochs for apparent criminal acts by a handful of their 50000 US employees and legal commerce with Iran years ago while ignoring Soros, perhaps the most visible bankroller of left-leaning causes, who has actually been found personally guilty of at least one criminal act while profiting from the destruction of value of the savings of millions if not billions of people.

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  42. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Heck PaulE, we on the right are much more forgiving than you lefties. I even have a few things I like about Obama! But you leftwingers hate a person 100% when they disagree with you even on one item. That is why the left is headed to the dustbin, thank goodness.

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  43. Paul Emery Avatar

    Wrong Todd. I’m assuming you are clumping me in as a leftie. Gee Todd, George and I disagree on many things but we’re friends and I consider you a friend as well. I certainly don’t hate you. I don’t know why you always revert to such simplistic conclusions when challenged.

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  44. Gregory Avatar

    “Patriots don’t do illegal business with our enemies.” Paul 24 December 2011 at 04:17 PM
    “The decision did not find that Koch-Glitsch GmbH engaged in price fixing or any illegal behavior.” Bloomberg, in the actual article referenced
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-02/koch-brothers-flout-law-getting-richer-with-secret-iran-sales.html
    Paul, maybe I missed something. Where was the actual illegal sales to Iran documented? Lots of european corporations, including US subsidiaries, were legally selling to Iran in those days.

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  45. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    So PaulE you are not a lefty? Hmmm. I never held anything against you but if you think my criticism of your unwavering defense of all that is left and your 100% criticisms of all that is right doesn’t make you a lefty then I guess I am confused. Also your belief in the man on the grassy knoll.
    You also said
    “I don’t know why you always revert to such simplistic conclusions when challenged.”
    I would say you are the fellow that runs and hides when challenged on your statements. You always tell us after we catch your lefty doubletalk that you were simply tossing it out there for a discussion rather than holding yourself responsible for your statements. That is not a good debate tactic PaulE because no one will take you seriously.
    Regarding your claiming I am simplistic. Yes, I usually boil down liberal BS into a couple of tried and true reasons they are so misguided and I state those things so that even a simple person can understand what I say. Yes, I am guilty of not being a “smarter than the average bear”” explainer.

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  46. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    Oops, I also don’t see any feedback from you PaulE on your unforgiving attitude towards the Koch brothers as we have towards Obama and many liberals. It show how you are an unwavering partisan.

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  47. Paul Emery Avatar

    Todd. The Koch boys were making deals with Iran as late as 2007 while they were making bombs to kill our boys in Iraq. And still you call them American patriots. Really

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  48. Paul Emery Avatar

    Gregory
    Of course anything is considered legal unless you’re prosecuted and convicted. The fact is that according to Bloomberg, “Koch Industries sold materials to the state-owned National Iranian Petrochemical Co in order for them to help build a methanol plant for Zagros Petrochemical Co. These deals were put together by way of Koch bypassing the government issued ban by inking the deals through Koch offices internationally, including posts in Germany and Italy.”
    Technically probably legal in the same way that Clinton was truthful when he claimed he “Didn’t have sex with that Woman”
    More from Bloomberg about the legality of dealing with Iran
    “Since 1995, trading with Iran has been barred since President Clinton called the country an enemy of the state, a sentiment echoes an administration later by George W Bush, who called the country of the nations making up the Axis of Evil. The US State Department lists Iran as a supporter of terrorists groups including Hamas and Hezbollah, and has also tied the nation with insurgents affiliated with Taliban.”

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  49. Todd Juvinall Avatar

    PaulE, you don’t listen. Adios.

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  50. Paul Emery Avatar

    What is there to listen to? You admire persons who use cover back door techniques to do business for their personal profit with our enemies. It’s one thing to appreciate their support for causes you believe in and another to admire them and consider them to be Americans patriots. That’s what will get most reasonable people out of their seats.

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