The Vocational Technical High School

December 2011
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The Vocational Technical High School

03 December 2011

George Rebane

In today’s Union, James Hinman calls for a new high school in Nevada County that focuses on producing graduates who are able to go directly into the workforce and begin earning a living at a job that can develop into a career path (here) These pages have long argued that today’s colleges focus on providing its students with expensive, gratuitous meathead degrees that prepare them for very little in real life. Additionally, we recall that high schools used to prepare young people for the workforce in many highly technical and high paying positions.

I am the beneficiary of such a high school. Recently I again summarized my experience here in a comment stream –

I believe that shutting down high school shop (occupational) programs was a very big mistake. Especially since they kept a lot of the politically correct crap for curriculum. I took the full course of ‘shop classes’ in Indiana, and was subsequently able to work summers in industry besides men who were my father’s age. In California, I hired on as a draftsman (promoted to designer) on the strength of what I learned in my high school year of drafting. My wages were such that I could have quit school and made a rewarding career, and raised a family on what I learned in high school. Instead, my summer drafting job paid for a physics degree from Univ of Calif. And my story was not unique, high school prepared us for life in those days.

In the past decades high school has become a remedial institution for dysfunctional grade schools, and in the large, college has become a remedial institution for dysfunctional high schools. The political orientation of teachers and curriculum shares most of the blame for this. Mr Hinman suggests the formation of a new charter ‘votech’ (my term) high school.

I would like to see this approach discussed, planned, and implemented along a procedural path that sidesteps, as much as possible, the corrupted teaching establishment. The aim here should be to develop a votech high school that can also serve as a template for other communities similarly motivated – i.e. the proverbial ‘movable feast’. Industry and commerce should be the prime partners (both in planning and funding) in this enterprise. And no one should expect clear sailing to build such votech schools here or elsewhere. The progressive elements in Nevada County and across the country will come out swinging against this student and jobs oriented revamp of high schools, for it will shake the very foundation of their long-established sinecures.

Posted in Culture Comments, Current Affairs, Nevada County, Our Country

116 responses to “The Vocational Technical High School”

Russ Steele

04 December 2011

Here are two schools that offer the heavy equipment training, post highschool, one in Southern CA and one in the Valley:
Rio Hondo Community College’s Heavy Equipment Training Programs
Rio Hondo Community College (RHCC) is a 2-year public school located in Whittier, California. The college offers heavy equipment training through the career and technical education department. Nearly 21,000 students attend RHCC to pursue a variety of certificates and associate degrees.
San Joaquin Delta College’s Heavy Equipment Training Programs
San Joaquin Delta College (SJDC) is a 2-year, public college located in Stockton, California. More than 20,000 students attend classes at SJDC’s various campuses, including the Manteca Center in Manteca, California and the South Campus at Mountain House in Tracy, and the main campus in Stockton. SJDC offers a certificate of achievement program for heavy equipment mechanics and heavy equipment technicians, as well as an associate’s degree in heavy equipment technology.

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Greg Goodknight

04 December 2011

“I also agree that votech high schools must bring their students up to grade level in reading, writing, and arithmetic, something that ROTM schools have had no apparent requirement to do for some time now.”
I think something of a “you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink” needs to be remembered. No school “must” cause someone to learn to read or to factor fiendishly difficult quadratic equations. It still takes a motivated student to make it happen.
Schools aren’t required to be successful with any particular student, one of the reasons parents should have choice over where their children’s education takes place. The family has to live with the educational outcome, the school doesn’t.

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George Rebane

04 December 2011

Agreed GregG. “… must bring their students …” is meant in the aggregate, else close the school as an unnecessary expense to society.

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Walt

04 December 2011

Nothing real special George, High school diploma, GED,( Spanish is almost required these days if you catch my drift)and some common sense. But most important, knowing what they are getting into.
Some people can pick this up rather quickly, others not so fast, some ,not at all.
There are so many differant “jobs” that operators may fins their way into. From the local dump to aerospace. It’s not all roads and housing developments.
BTW,,, I hope my work still has your approval, and is holding up well.

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George Rebane

05 December 2011

Walt – beautiful job, it’ll last more than a lifetime (at least mine) 😉

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Walt

05 December 2011

Thanks Mr.R. If you had said otherwise, I would have been out there with a rake and shovel before noon to fix what went South. ( since I no longer have access to equipment. It was all sold at auction.)

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Greg Goodknight

05 December 2011

Russ, your mention of Rio Hondo brought me a smile… back when I was in high school, loosely attached to Rio Hondo College was the Rio Hondo Symphony (having played in both, I’d say they were roughly equivalent to the Auburn Symphony) and the Rio Hondo Youth Symphony. I got into the adult symphony when a high school junior, 3rd trumpet behind two music teachers. I think that first concert included Dvorak’s New World and Franck’s D minor symphonies. Neat stuff for a kid, but I remember one of the hardest things (besides the transpositions) to do were to accurately count hundreds of measures of rests… some composers just didn’t want to hear trumpets very often.
I was asked to sub in the youth symphony once, they were short their 1st trumpet. I was introduced to the group (peers in age) as a friend in the adult symphony from Montebello High (the next district to the West from most of them) to some gasps… the first time I felt like a pro from Dover. One rehearsal, then concert. They were remarkably good for a youth group, back in the days before school music programs had hit rock bottom.
This reminds me, music remains a viable career choice. Vocational. Youse guys should accept that. Music in the schools may just be a diversion that leaves a student with some arts appreciation to the majority, but others go on to actually earning a living. More kids take that route than get into pro sports. But guess what? Most kids who take math don’t become mathematicians or scientists, either.

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Bob W

05 December 2011

George, I think what you might have been referring to by my hint was the engineering that precedes the dirt moving else which dirt where? And then the realization that the intent is to transform natural into dedicated sculpture. The “follows” refers to what the sculpture is engineered to support starting with a foundation or base and so forth which of course is another entire litany of expertise, skills and professions. All this being an ideal presentation of accomplishment, productivity, and the resultant gratification.

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George Rebane

05 December 2011

BobW 926am – would like to respond, but don’t know to which comments of yours and mine you are referring. Using comment time tags as their labels helps, especially when the comment stream is long and contains multiple threads.

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George Rebane

05 December 2011

GregG 909am – Do you have any idea about what fraction of professional musicians have jobs that must be supported by government or private foundation grants? Maybe PaulE, being a producer and pro musician, has this data.

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Greg Goodknight

05 December 2011

“what fraction of professional musicians have jobs that must be supported by government or private foundation grants?”
Must be supported by government grants? Not a one.
Are supported by private foundations? Many more, but even the greats had patrons. That the wealthy and groups of the not all that wealthy choose to support arts that aren’t as commercially viable as the Madonna du jour is none of anyone’s business but their own.

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Bob W

05 December 2011

George it was the 4th 5:48PM.

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George Rebane

05 December 2011

GregG 1024am – You seem to be circling the wagons on this one – no attack imminent from me. However, the feds (and even some states) have long supported the performing arts with grants. Classical music has been a longtime recipient of public monies from sources like the National Endowment of the Arts.
http://theperformingartsalliance.org/site/PageServer?pagename=importance_federal_funding_arts
The answer to my question was intended to frame thoughts about encouraging young people to enter the musical and other performing arts fields through public schools programs.
BobW 1053am – Agreed. But even though that there might be some pretty fancy prep work required, say in soil engineering, that is beyond the ken of the dirt moving students, I wouldn’t ask them to master that, only to appreciate it before they start the engine of their dirt mover.

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Greg Goodknight

05 December 2011

George, no circling of the wagons here. The operative word you chose to use there was “must”. If you meant “are”, that is a bit more, though in SoCal where I grew up there was lots of commercial work for film, tv and radio. Less after one protracted strike in the ’80’s that the union “won” but not before a lot of producers found they could get the same work done cheaper and just about as good elsewhere.
All in all I’d expect government supports fewer musicians by percentage than anthropologists or sociologists.

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George Rebane

05 December 2011

GregG 1219pm – Before moving to NC, we were lifelong residents of SoCal – my wife as a third generation native and I since teen years – and we supported the local classical music scene by memberships and attendance. I’m glad you brought up my use of “must”, because that was exactly my intention. Through the years, we constantly heard, especially on NPR outlets, of this or that ensemble, group, chorale, quartet, and even symphony orchestra shutting down or cancelling seasons because they had lost or had their government funding reduced.
I’m not sure that such vicissitudes visit the pop scene (except maybe cowboy poetry readings in Nevada) as much. But a lot of talented young musicians arriving at early adulthood seem surprised at how hard it is to earn a living as a musician, and many have to take a day job in order to pursue their first love.
How should public policy address such a cultural issue for musicians of a distinct bent (funding their training, funding their work), especially since the industry derives its income from the discretionary spending part of its customers’ budgets?

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Greg Goodknight

05 December 2011

George, to take what you’re suggesting to its logical conclusion, why take any tax receipt to train any kid to do anything? If you want your kid to be able to read, do it yourself or you pay for someone else to do it.
While it can be argued that individuals and communities did that pretty well before the Ed Biz became the largest single expenditure of the formerly great State of California, that isn’t what we have now and it’s a big loser politically. To argue over that may make you feel good but it is counterproductive.

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Douglas keachie

05 December 2011

Well George and others, we all know the schools were asked to cut expenses to save on taxes, by the 1%’ers and their lackeys. Now you are reaping the rewards. Shop programs were very expensive, and finding qualified teachers led SF Unified to offer a 7 year boost up the pay scale for potential vocational teacher who would then have to give up their more lucrative private practices. Yes Virginia, some private sector jobs pay more than the public sector ones.
Given the wonderful economy resulting from the job creating Bush tax cuts, we now have 2,200 homeless students in SFUSD alone, out of 55,000 students. That means on average every classroom has one homeless student in it, complete with all that entails. It is more difficult to teach a student who is hungry and cold, and had no safe place to do homework and then get back to a makeshift shelter.
How much of the country will become homeless before the 1% realize they have made a very, very bad miscalculation?
On reading levels and potato chips, I give you, and especially Greg: http://www.insidebayarea.com/oakland-tribune/ci_19469388

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Douglas keachie

05 December 2011

As long as they’ll bring in some top soil, I have easily 5 acres to spare that could be flatterned as smooth as a baby’s bottom, and trenched, and whatever else needs to be learned. I’m sure many property owners would be open to such a deal, as long as liability is totally taken care of by the school.

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Douglas keachie

05 December 2011

On machining, try this on for size:
http://michiganradio.org/post/lights-out-machining-you-go-home-machines-keep-working

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George Rebane

05 December 2011

GregG 128pm – I’m not inclined to travel on that track of logic, because heading in the opposite direction would recommend spending public monies to also teach kids to flatulate in key and perform the national anthem at sporting events (cf Mr Methane the flatulist and his 19th century predecessor Le Petomane). I think we may reasonably define the bounds of skill sets benefiting society in the aggregate that should be candidates for public funding.
DougK 132pm – welcome back. And what a delightfully simple world you again show us. With union stuffed administrators now outnumbering dysfunctional teachers in our schools, all we need is more money to be thrown at it. Taxing the vilified ‘1%’ is no doubt the long-sought solution. From your mouth to God’s ear.

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Douglas keachie

05 December 2011

Not sure what a “union stuffed administrator” is? The administrators have their own union, separate form the teachers and staff in SFUSD.
We represent administrators in the San Francisco Unified School District.
The United Administrators of San Francisco (UASF) is the official union organization charged with ensuring the equitable treatment and professional well being of its members by working to promote employment conditions that enable supervisory administrators of the school district to operate effectively.
UASF is responsible for developing and providing professional services and activities to promote the success of its membership.
UASF will represent, advocate and defend the rights and collective interest of its membership.
UASF, Local No. 3, is affiliated with American Federation of School Administrators AFL-CIO.
Contact us at:
United Administrators of San Francisco, Local 3 – AFL-CIO
P.O. Box 31940
San Francisco, CA 94131
And George, what do you find so delightfully simple minded about lights out machining? And just what simple solution, (final solution? i should hope NOT!) do you have for the homeless that are piling up on our nation’s underpasses? if you close your eyes do they all just disappear?

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Douglas keachie

05 December 2011

Good luck getting teachers for your heavy equipment school, at beginning teachers’ salaries, and good luck getting the funding to pay for such a school, even if concerned citizens like myself make major donations of spots to run the school.

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George Rebane

05 December 2011

DougK 217pm – never commented on “lights out machining”. How did we get to solutions for the homeless??
However, your 221pm lament is worthy of discussion. You clearly are implying that high school teachers in California are paid too little.

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Douglas keachie

05 December 2011

I am clearly implying, and have previously indicated, that to get someone with both teaching and heavy equipment skills, you will have to pay more than what a first year teacher normally gets in California.

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Douglas keachie

05 December 2011

BTW, my name is Keachie, Doug keachie.

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Douglas keachie

05 December 2011

Typing without glasses again, “Keachie, Doug Keachie.”

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Mikey McD

05 December 2011

Moonbeam thinks more money to school and fewer CA employers = solution.
Dear Employers,
Please leave California. Go On, Get!
Signed, Governor Brown.
http://blogs.kqed.org/newsfix/2011/12/05/jerry-brown-files-ballot-initiative-for-higher-taxes/

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George Rebane

05 December 2011

DougK 255pm – Apologies Doug, I have corrected my thoughtless fingers.
I think that requiring heavy equipment operator teachers to qualify also as California classroom teachers is a gratuitous application of bureaucracy to keep the teachers union happy. As a university lecturer, Army instructor, and having qualified to teach in California’s high schools, I know and have practiced the drill. The bigger problem is that heavy equipment operators may get paid more at the commercial schools offering such instruction.
But I bet that you and I can get together with an experienced operator (maybe Walt here) and fairly quickly develop the pedagogical side of what has to happen during the course of such instruction. To make any headway toward a local votech school will require end-running as much of the establishment as possible.

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Bob W

05 December 2011

I have been letting my machine run at night while I was away for 20 years now and others have been doing the same for over 30. Nothing new here. It all depends on what you are running. Yes CNC has eliminated more man hours than it has created. This would only be a surprise to someone who is typically cooped up in an office. It is very common for someone not familiar with the myriad of machining specialties to over simplify any of these processes. Just verifies that they haven’t a clue.

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Russ Steele

05 December 2011

When I visited Innovative Metals plant, they are now gone, they had robot cutting machines that ran all night long. The machine grabed a sheet of steel and cut our the patterns that had been programs into it, stacked the parts, and then grabed another sheet of metal. Worked 24/7 as long as it had sheets of metal to grab according to my guide. At the time they were buidling the moving assembly racks that Dell Computer was using to assemble computers. They were looking to move as the cost of shipping in metal sheets and out finished product was too high here in the foothills.

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Bob W

05 December 2011

Lights out.
http://www.theunion.com/article/20070314/NEWS/103140173&parentprofile=search

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bill tozer

05 December 2011

Guess it all depends on the instructor. Kinda like a good teacher/mentor in any field. If there were only more “Dead Poets Society” types out there, our schools would be much better. When I started to settle down after a very prolonged childhood, a local guy here encouraged me to get into welding. He was finishing his career as a union welder which took him to nuclear plants on the East Coast and hospitals on the West Coast. Made 6 figures and had months off and generous benefits. He said “Don’t take the welding course at Sierra College (Rocklin). The instructor there does not know what he is doing.” In college, one favorite business professor would point to the book and tell us what sections were pure BS. He reminded us that the texts were written by Ivory League doctorates who had not been in the field in 30 years and don’t know how the real world operates today. Then he would share his experience and were told the proper procedures in the current age. A good auto technician course with the best mechanics costs about 36k for their 18 month program. But, the grads are superior techs, not mediocre. My niece recently wanted to be a journalist of all things. She moved to Boston to be an understudy/intern for some Pulitzer Prize author and is doing research for his next novel. Now, the little country girl is hired full time by the Boston Globe writing general interest stories for the past year. Yes, I know they say print is a dying, low paid field, but I say follow your dreams. Point is without good instructors/mentors, our younger generation will be cursed with the same old sub par products as evidenced by what our public school system churns out year after year. And noooo, DougK, throwing more money at out of touch uninspiring teachers will not solve anything. My name is Bill Tozer and I endorse this message.

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Bob W

05 December 2011

Look, honestly this isn’t as it appears. When conditions reach a point, and I have no idea when that may be, where there is a need in industry then industry will fill it. Industry never needed the government to get involved. Industry has always prospered the most when government kept out of the way. There are a few exceptions. These are very few and when there is a role for government it usually is indisputable.
Need will arise out of desperation of those on the lower income scale. That is when this will turn around. Don’t hold your breath!

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Douglas keachie

05 December 2011

Throwing more homeless students and students from homes that devalue education and in particular declare all public school teachers to be out of touch and uninspiring, sure isn’t going to improve the educational system either.
How much damage has been done by all the drum drum drum mindless chanting of “evil teachers with evil unions” as illustrated typically by control freak parents born one too many times and wanting to make J. C. the number one topic in the curriculum and get paid to do it to boot?
APPARENTLY SOMEONE FORGOT TO TEACH THAT 2007 NEWSTORY ROBOT HOW TO SHUT ITSELF OFF…

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Douglas keachie

05 December 2011

tHE CHARTER SCHOOLS MOVEMENT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR WELL OVER TWENTY YEARS BY NOW. That’s plenty of time in which to find and identify and REWARD those OUTSTANDING teachers that the right is forever declaring to exist, somewhere over the rainbow.
If such teachers are really and truly valuable, then surely the best schools are competing for them, and university would be paying terrific fees to study the outstanding techniques of such teacher.
So, find me ONE teacher, just ONE teacher, K-12, that is making over $200,000/year from teaching. can’t do it, can you?
Alternatively, find me ONE teacher, just ONE teacher, K-12, that is making more than their ‘superior.” Can’t do that ewither, can you? merit pay it total BS and DOES NOT EXIST and NEVER WILL.

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Douglas Keachie

05 December 2011

So Bob W, just how do you expect this to play out?
“Need will arise out of desperation of those on the lower income scale. That is when this will turn around. Don’t hold your breath!”
15% of the country is living below the poverty level. The are 5 applicants for every job. So when the bottom gets totally desperate, they then break the law, go to trial, and then off to prison, at a cost of $42,000/year each? If just 4.5 million of the 45 million belkow the poverty line did this, that would be roughly $180,000,000,000 nationwide, every year.
Smart plan, what’s NEXT!

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Bob W

05 December 2011

Keachie you have so little of a clue what realty is and are so incapable of accepting it that there is absolutely no point in even trying to educate you on it.
Besides the point that I would think less of myself by attempting it.
My comments are not meant for you believe me!

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Russ Steele

05 December 2011

Keachie, what does living below the poverty line really mean? Here are some discussion points:
• For decades, the U.S. Census Bureau has reported that over 30 million Americans were living in “poverty,” but the bureau’s definition of poverty differs widely from that held by most Americans.
• In fact, other government surveys show that most of the persons whom the government defines as “in poverty” are not poor in any ordinary sense of the term.
• The typical poor household, as defined by the government, has a car and air conditioning, two color televisions, cable or satellite TV, a DVD player, and a VCR. If there are children,
especially boys, the family has a game system, such as an Xbox or PlayStation.
• In the kitchen, the household has a refrigerator, an oven and stove, and a microwave.
Other household conveniences include a clothes washer, clothes dryer, ceiling fans, a
cordless phone, and a coffee maker.
• The home of the typical poor family is in good repair and is not overcrowded. In fact,
the typical average poor American has more living space in his home than the average
(non-poor) European has.
• By its own report, the typical poor family was not hungry, was able to obtain medical care when needed, and had sufficient funds during the past year to meet all essential needs.
More here: http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/07/what-is-poverty

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Douglas Keachie

05 December 2011

I can buy one of each and every item on the household amenities list for under $1,000, in today’s thrift store and yard sale environment. What a strange mind that rates poverty by household amenities possessed.
You might better ask, how many hours of the day can you walk safely to and from a school or library, if you are girl, of whatever age range you care to identify? How quiet is the neighborhood and household. Is there a place to study in the household? How much hot water is available for showers? How come there are still lots of ghetto laundromats, if all these households have washers and dryers? How come these kids show up early for food at the school? How wonderful is it to know your parents/caretakers will never have a dime for college?
Poverty sucks, get used to it.

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Douglas Keachie

05 December 2011

Rebane at 3:39. I seem to recall that they would take people without regular teaching credentials, and let them take several years at full pay to take night classes at the District’s expense, to get a credential. That’s how I got my Community College credential, credit for profession experience in photography, and they didn’t even bother to make me take classes, but that was above K-12, they may have had more discretion.

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bill tozer

05 December 2011

I suppose to some, having 40 acres and a mule is being a 1%er. To others, the evil rich are those that make double what they make in their chosen field. Has nothing to do with choices I suppose. To me, anybody that owns a washer and dryer is either rich or spoiled.

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Walt

05 December 2011

3:39,,George,, There is no real “book” to learn the trade. Every operator develops his own “style” ( for lack of a better term ).
People can be trained to make a machine do what they want it to do within it’s limitations.
For the sake of discussion(again) a “tractor school” we start would
produce apprentice class operators.( hopefully better than that)
They would know the basics. Do they want to learn one piece of equipment? or ten? Some tractors take longer to get the hang of.
Safe operation will be the priority. Working around people on the ground, etc. Current safety procedures when working near gas, and power. ( I’m sure PG&E would send one of their own for that class. In Nevada that class is two days all by it self)
Like I said. Apprentice level is what to shoot for. The less classroom time, the better. This is truly hands on learning.
A real good example of a heavy equipment school to emulate is the military’s training center at Ft. LeonardWood MO. ( just so happens I am a graduate from there. They wanted to keep me as an instructor. I respectfully declined. The Winters there truly sucked, and they don’t call it Fort Lostinthewoods for nothing)
Keach, if you really want to get the most out of your Kabota, let me know.. ( for a fee of corce.LOL)

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Douglas Keachie

05 December 2011

Walt, at over 2,500 hours in the seat, countless “got stuck” and releases, moving a boulder or two weighing twice the weight of the tractor, shoving small structures into place, trenches, postholes, brushhog, roads, etc., I’ve self taught quite a bit. At this point we are stretched, doing a fixer, or I’d take you up on that. Frank Jones (ex-PG&E) taught me quite a bit when I first got the tractor.

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Douglas Keachie

05 December 2011

We own a washer and a dryer, but we do not use tthe dryer. Better to hang up clothes, outdoors or in.

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Walt

05 December 2011

OK, so you got a little time under your belt. I quit counting hours long ago. If I recall you lost the last pissing match you just had to get into. I will pass on this one. But I will say that I have done a thing or two that most didn’t have the balls to do, and live to tell the tail. Ever hear the term ” Yo-YO”? Two dozers, one cliff,one cable and pulley.That’s the one comes to mind first.
What the hell,,,, Piss away.(lol)

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Greg Goodknight

05 December 2011

Don’t Feed the Keachies.

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Douglas Keachie

05 December 2011

No PIZZA for Greggie.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keachie/6464376987/in/photostream/lightbox/

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Greg Goodknight

05 December 2011

George, the only instrument that resembles the letting of foul air is the bassoon, and there aren’t many high schools that have one in their bands.
Really, George, music and fine arts are not the reason for the shape schools are in, and they don’t provide training sufficient to make a living at it, and never have. However, it does provide enough experience for a potential musician to discover their talent, and that is appropriate for schools.
Music is a plus for the individuals in the program and for the school. You don’t know what suffering for one’s craft means until you’ve played Elgar’s Pomp and Circumstance with enough repeats to cover 1000 names being read one by one.

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Douglas Keachie

05 December 2011

I count the hours to make sure I change the oil and filter every 100 hours, or rather the hour meter does it for me. Lube every ten hours, all points of major pressure. Nearly killed myself during first 50 hours, Became very respectful after that and got a tilt meter, and learned that tractor may be four wheel drive, but they are only two rear wheels when it come to brakes. Overload the front bucket on the level, be in two wheel drive, go down a hill, rear wheels lift off the ground, and ZOOOOM! I bailed into the bushes, tractor flipped 30 feet further at the curve. I’m sure you can piss much further than that.

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Walt

05 December 2011

At least you learned from your mistakes.( I hope) And yes, I have my own bone head moves that never will be disclosed. So 2500HRS. for you and the tractor? So the tractor is freshly broken in, Nice low hours. Is this your first hands on machine?
And just to hike my leg one more time, there is hardly a piece of equipment that I am not qualified to operate. But having some special licence for some, I don’t have.( disclaimer)

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