Rebane's Ruminations
November 2011
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George Rebane

Does everyone understand what went down this morning between our Federal Reserve and the European Central Bank?  I venture that less than one in ten thousand Americans know that their pocket was legally picked today by international central banks.  This morning the Fed executed a “dollar swap” with the ECB that essentially allows the tottering European banks to have an endless and cheap supply of new US dollars flow to them through the ECB.

When I saw this barely coherent report on the online edition of today’s WSJ blandly talking about “making dollars available” to the ECB, I almost tossed my cookies.  My take on what had actually happened was corroborated by a couple of phone calls to one of my Washington spies who sent me the summary page of “the Fed memo” (about what the Fed did) that was hastily circulated to members of Congress to soften any awkward outcries to the press.

DowntheToiletRR readers know the precarious sovereign debt positions of countries like Greece, Spain, Italy, … .  There is little chance that the euro will survive as the European currency, let alone continue on its vaunted march to becoming a competing reserve currency to the US dollar.  Recall that bankrupt countries borrow from commercial banks to finance their existing debt and continue funding their insane social programs.  Lenders to some countries have already taken ‘haircuts’ on the amounts loaned.  More of this is on the way since none of the eurozone countries have any foreseeable chance of growing their way out their debts.  Instead, many of their economies are shrinking.

So here’s the situation.   A growing number of eurozone countries, up to their eyeballs in debt, owe on their purchases of stuff like oil, other commodities, and their international trade imbalances.  The bills must be paid in dollars.  Their banks are tapped out of dollars (they can still borrow euros from the ECB which can print them, but euros won’t do) so they must borrow from the only source that will still give them the time of day, the ECB.  But the ECB is fresh out of dollars.

So Mario calls Ben and asks for a dollar/euro swap along the lines that was set up way back when “to provide dollar liquidity to foreign banks”.  This essentially means that the ECB sends over to the Fed some euros – at TODAY’S EXCHANGE RATE – and the Fed sends over some newly printed US dollars which get credited to Europe’s banks, who in turn lend them to the heavily perspiring eurozone countries.

In theory the Fed gets its dollars back along with some below market interest income when the ECB is able to repay.   But if the ECB can’t come up with the dollars as stipulated, then there is no default.  The built-in swap provisions allow the ECB to roll over the debt (er, I mean swap) and get more dollars if it needs them for more euros at the bygone fixed exchange rate.  This can go on indefinitely, and it means the Fed is on the hook for continuing to print more dollars to pay European debt with no end in sight, and no way to cash in on the collateral euros it holds in the ECB account.  The way it’s set up, this debt cannot default.

Now I know, dear reader, that you think this is a post in which I’m pulling your leg, and that it should really be posted on April Fool’s Day.   Unfortunately, I’m dead serious.  Without a single elected representative having had a say in this, the Fed has committed to have the dollar follow the euro into what most likely will be an inflation death spiral.  And the American taxpayer will become the lender of last resort to the profligate socialist governments of Europe.  You can get your own snootful on this through a careful read of the memo’s summary page I mentioned above – Download Fed Memo_111130.

I wonder if the fact that 70% of the profits for our international corporations comes from trade with the eurozone has anything to do with this quietly arranged European bailout that went down today.  Like the Chinese don’t want us to go broke, these multi-national corporations (and we?) don’t want Europe to go broke.  You may want to call your congressional rep and hear what s/he has to say about all this.  And that’s how we play kick the can. 

Posted in , , , ,

86 responses to “The Fed/ECB dollar swap”

  1. louis from Italy Avatar
    louis from Italy

    Thank you Mr Rebane for your post. I totally agree and see your point. I have another point which perhaps all should focus on: the price of oil in Euro (not in US dollars) seems to be have always been quite stable. I find it strange that the dollar has not yet surged againt the Euro and if it did so I feel we could see an instant crisis throuout the system.
    best to all,
    Bert

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  2. Martin Avatar
    Martin

    Another end-run around Congress following what was recently leaked in the news that since 2008 the FED has secretly given Trillions of $$ to failing US and foreign banks but no one Congress seems to care. And, where’s The Kenyan on this? ….absent.
    We’re in deep trouble folks.

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  3. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Thanks for the details on how this was done. Yesterday all I could get was that the Fed had “provided liquidity” for the ECB. There is another reason the Fed is straining to keep things solvent in the Euro zone. It is unclear, but troubling as to how deep the major US financials are invested in CDFs for Euro debt. If they cave, it will be back to “too big to fail” time. The only nit to pick is that it seems to me that the Fed, not the ECB picked the US tax payers’ pockets. I’m sure that the justification in the Feds minds’ is that we, as taxpayers, pay now or pay more later. The trouble is that this just buys a little time and then what? The underlying problem is just getting worse.

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  4. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Sorry – not enough coffee yet. credit default swaps, CDSs, not CDFs.

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  5. George Rebane Avatar

    ScottO – the ECB, along with the coordinated actions of the other named central banks, pulled the trigger on the swap. The Fed technically had to comply and did. But Ben had to know the greater implications of this swap, and should have immediately conferred with the country’s political leaders to advise them of what was coming down and whether he should comply. We don’t know yet what he did, but play out both scenarios, and then judge for yourself either the silence from the administration (and congressional leadership), or that the Fed’s unelected elite are flying solo in making momentous decisions about the country’s future/survival.

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  6. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Along those lines – I was reading the Fed memo (summary) and then went to the Fed’s web site. These memos don’t seem to be available to the general public. Are they somehow available from the Fed if you know the secret handshake? Or was this just for certain members of the fed govt? The lame stream press always seems so clueless on this sort of thing. They are far more ramped up about voluntary $5.00 a month fees from banks.

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  7. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “So Mario calls Ben and asks for a dollar/euro swap along the lines that was set up way back when “to provide dollar liquidity to foreign banks”. This essentially means that the ECB sends over to the Fed some euros – at TODAY’S EXCHANGE RATE – and the Fed sends over some newly printed US dollars which get credited to Europe’s banks, who in turn lend them to the heavily perspiring eurozone countries.”
    So, tax the poor / middle class through inflation.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9IYcq6hzJE

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  8. George Rebane Avatar

    ScottO – good questions, but at certain times I do have to keep my sources confidential.
    DaveK – you got it; inflation is a government instituted assets tax that hits hardest on the poorest.

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  9. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Here is a short video that may help our leftist friends to understand current events and policies to avoid in the future. Well, maybe!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGPa5Ob-5Ps&feature=channel_video_title
    If they only knew what the new patent laws will do to innovation!

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  10. Mikey McD Avatar

    Only elitist central planners/politicians can justify using more debt and currency debasement to combat too much debt and currency debasement.
    At lease we can be comforted by the godfather of socialism’s answer to our present day crisis…. “in the long run we are all dead.” I feel better already.
    Don’t look for the approval of such shenanigans in the US Constitution, no such right exists.

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  11. Mikey McD Avatar

    The lame stream media should be reporting on this travesty nonstop (24/7). Add this to the long list of treasonous acts perpetrated against the American people by the unaudited, unconstitutional, uncontrollable Federal Reserve. No organization on the planet has and will do as much harm to the working class as the FED. End The FED.
    The central planners disrespect for personal liberty and complex systems leads to demise.

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  12. Mikey McD Avatar

    Rate of inflation since 1913 (Start of THE FED): 2187.1%
    TWO-THOUSAND-EIGHTY-SEVEN PERCENT IN LESS THAN 100 YEARS!
    http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

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  13. George Rebane Avatar

    MikeyMcD 244pm – the difference between inflation amount and inflation rate is important. The 2187.1% in 98 years is the AMOUNT of inflation suffered by the dollar since the Fed was established. The average inflation RATE for that period is about 3.5% per year.

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  14. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Being correct about what is happening (the huge debt and unfunded liabilities) and how it will end is important, but if your timing isn’t right, you still lose your shirt. We can expect Pres. Zero to make sure the Fed will keep the spigot open for another year, but there are other events and the unexpected to watch out for. Exciting times, for sure.
    Things seem to be pretty stable right now, but stuff happens (the mid east exploding, massive strikes in most of the former Euros, etc) and the 3 Gs will suddenly be red hot. Guns, Groceries and Gold. Washington isn’t stupid and will work hard to try to avoid that, but the music has to come to an end some time and I think a lot more than one chair has been removed in the last 40 years. Where will you sit, folks?

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  15. George Rebane Avatar

    Point of information in this game of musical chairs. THERE ARE NO CHAIRS. The music has to keep playing, and when it stops …

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  16. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    AS a musician that has rehearsed beginnings and endings of songs for 45 years I can say that every song does eventually end.
    The ruling class always prevails when ever there is a disaster and it’s the poor that suffer. At one time it was useful to have legions of poor people because they was useful menial work that needed to be done and it needed a cheap labor force. Not so true today.
    In Ireland during the 1850’s millions of Irish either starved to death or left the country because there was no food for them because of the potato blight. There were starving villages bordered by prosperous British farms that grew other crops that they were not allowed to eat. They were guarded by cheap labor soldiers employed by the rich farmers for protection. So you had the ruling class, the lower class workers and soldiers paid cheap and the rest were left to starve or leave the country. In Russia and central Europe the situation was largely the same and it lead to revolution and ultimately Communism when there was no longer a strong enough central authority to control the rebellions.
    So perhaps it’s worth considering the value of an effective social net because if you turn loose the dogs of desperation and rebellion it won’t be pretty.
    Of course the so called “revolution” created another ruling class and on we go….
    What does that mean today? Can we learn from history ?

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  17. George Rebane Avatar

    Well said Paul. We cannot leave the poor. All we must do is to be able to make mostly good decisions between those who can’t and those who won’t. Then succor the former and encourage the latter, else the blood in the gutters may be our own.

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  18. bill tozer Avatar
    bill tozer

    Man I wish this was an April’s Fools gag. Now I know why Obama treated the British diplomats so shabby the moment he took office. And the BIG O is no fan of Germany either right now. Merkel and the Big Zero just have not found their warm fuzzy moment yet. France is more to The Big O’s likening, but they are getting too chummy with the Germans fighting to save Euroland. Guess the only one in Euroland that sees eye to eye with the Big O is Greece. Now don’t that beat all. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-01/franco-german-push-for-budget-rules-snubs-investor-bid-for-ecb-crisis-role.html

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  19. bill tozer Avatar
    bill tozer

    Paul, don’t forget the Black Plague. Made the potato famine seem like sand box stuff.

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  20. Larry Wirth Avatar
    Larry Wirth

    In 1914, the German Mark was worth .025$ and on 1 Jan 1924 it was again worth .025$. In between, between 1916 and Dec 1923 it was inflated to 50,000,000,000 to 1$US. How was the problem fixed without much fuss? I know the answer, but George is much better at explaining such things, so have at it George. Because it increasingly looks like our own near term future. Thanks. L

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  21. Larry Wirth Avatar
    Larry Wirth

    Oops! Meant the Mark was worth .25$ US, not .025$ US. By the way, it was worth that much until the mid Seventies when it began to float upwards to its final rate of .45$ US just before the Euro came into being.

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  22. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Bill
    I don’t understand why you chose to trivialize an historic event that caused approximately 1 million people to die and a million more to emigrated from Ireland, causing the island’s population to fall by between 20% and 25%. At some point our contemporary ruling class will have to cater to an increasing larger disenfranchised underclass. That’s why many Conservative economists in Europe and in this country support what our host would consider Socialist programs to keep meat on the bones so to speak of the working and non working classes. They stay happy and become good consumers.
    There is not a chance that this will change significantly and certainly not enough to satisfy the fringe Conservatives that are currently leading noisemakers at least over here although not so much elsewhere though.
    I use Ireland’s potato famine as an example because it became a rallying point for various nationalist movements, as Ireland was then part of the Great Britain, that ultimately overthrew the ruling class in the revolution that led to the Republic of Ireland in 1922 after a violent revolution.
    From a recent history of Ireland:
    At the top of the “social pyramid” was the “ascendancy class” (ruling class), the English and Anglo-Irish families who owned most of the land, and who had more or less limitless power over their tenants.”
    The Celtic grazing lands of Ireland had been used to pasture cows for centuries. The British colonised the Irish, transforming much of their countryside into an extended grazing land to raise cattle for a hungry consumer market at home. Pushed off the best pasture land and forced to farm smaller plots of marginal land, the Irish turned to the potato, a crop that could be grown abundantly in less favorable soil. Eventually, cows took over much of Ireland, leaving the native population virtually dependent on the potato for survival”

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  23. bill tozer Avatar
    bill tozer

    Oh Paul, I am a bad boy. I want to push Granny over the cliff, take away the homeless’s blankets on freezing nights (or give them smallpox laden blankets) and snatch food from the mouth of Tiny Tim on Christmas. Yes, God created whiskey to keep the Irish from ruling anything. No blacks or Hispanics or Jews in Ireland, so the Irish learned to improvise. Actually, I had an ancestor who fled Ireland when the Queen of England ordered his head on a platter. He was a passive/rebellious man who send the Queen some risque Fredicks of Hollywood type undergarments. Some people do not have a sense of humor. Because of him, I am here. Sure, when people are hungry, change is in the air. When the World War I vets marched on Washington to get prepayment of their veterans benefits, Hoover told the military to show restraint. Instead Patton sent the troops in and busted heads. NY Gov FDR heard the news and commented “I just won the election for President.” France’s revolution was stupid cause they just threw the bums out and replace one King with an Emperor. Kingfish Long rose in popularity in hard times. We have a nation where people flee to for the chance of a better life. They just want the opportunity, the chance. Jamaican immigrants fair much better here than do our Black-American citizens. They see America as opportunity, as do immigrants from South America and India. The left sees the glass as half empty, the game is rigged, life is hopeless (as they use their flush toilets, have drinking fountains with clean water in public squares, own microwaves, have grocery store shelves restocked daily and talk on their cell phones while driving their very own automobiles). Makes me hungry for meat and potatoes.

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  24. RL Crabb Avatar

    Some Irishman once said, “Other people have a nationality. The Jews and the Irish have a psychosis.” Maybe we should add conservative Americans to the list.
    And I believe it was Doug MacArthur who routed his former comrades-in-arms.

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  25. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Eisenhower was the culprit.
    Bill, you hit the nail on the head with your humor. Sorry Crabb didn’t get it.
    No matter how good we have things the liberals always find the subset they can claim are abused in order to gain power. It is in their DNA. No logic involved.

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  26. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 253am – I do consider your citations of the British occupation of Ireland and the Irish potato famine to be a gratuitous historical non sequitur to this discussion. The disconnects between that era and our situation now are just too many to point out.
    And your lead to the “happy consumers” proposition being brought on by more doses of socialism is a perennial progressive dream that, for the rest of us, appears like the nightmare it has now turned into in Europe. Your ascription of these views as being unique to RR readers invites a broadening of reading habits.
    However, on these pages I do have a four year public record of promoting a sharing or redistribution of wealth with those who can’t produce it, while we continue efforts to reduce their numbers. And as has been said here many times by me and others, for those who can’t, we’re not going provide through collectivist methods that have inevitably led even the most advanced countries in the world – with all the support of modern society and technology – into bankruptcy, rioting, and TBD misery. But thanks for confirming again how the liberal mind approaches the solution to what caused the problems in the first place.

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  27. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    From Paul – ‘So perhaps it’s worth considering the value of an effective social net because if you turn loose the dogs of desperation and rebellion it won’t be pretty.’
    The most effective social net is an educated and properly motivated public. Simply taking resources from the better off will not help the have-nots in the long run. It never has. We have a huge number of brain dead entitlement-mentality masses in this country and yes, they are a problem when the goodies run out. When we get to the end of the quanitative easing, and the money’s no good, a lot of realities will sink in. First of all, there won’t be any govt services, (the left’s safety net) because most of the govt workers will be the first to walk off the job and riot. (see Europe).
    No, it won’t be pretty – do you really think Paul, you are telling us conservatives something we don’t know?

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  28. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    The Irish history I recalled was just an example of how the ruling class ultimately cooks their own goose when they become too greedy.
    Of course we do have a ruling class today (worldwide) and they are most aware of history and that’s why they will support the “Socialist” programs you feel will cause the world to go bankrupt. It’s a lonely world for American Conservatives. The Cheese Stands Alone…

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  29. George Rebane Avatar

    Amazing PaulE, simply amazing. The headlines of ALL the world’s media are shouting the news of Europe’s imminent collapse, which might well trigger a worldwide financial panic, and you are still talking of “Socialist programs that (I) feel will cause the world to go bankrupt”!! Didn’t you read my post? Much of Europe is already bankrupt, capice?? We’re not talking about “feelings” any longer, we’re talking about drastic bailouts with newly printed faith-based money that will destroy the wealth of hundreds of millions of workers across the world.
    And you are citing economists who are recommending more socialism to cure what got Europe there in the first place – that’s like shooting yourself in the other foot to fix the first one with a bloody hole in it.
    Conservatives lonely? If that were so, then the ECB’s printing presses would already be humming, instead of Angela and Nick dickering while an apprehensive world looks on. Your comments here clearly illustrate the ongoing problems in interplanetary communications.

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  30. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “Your comments here clearly illustrate the ongoing problems in interplanetary communications.”
    Come on George!
    It’s about a new world order, which has been conceived under the influence of pot and delicious cheetos!

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  31. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    As you know George I prefer to use the word adjustment rather than collapse.
    I really enjoyed reading the Cato institute piece ‘The End of Market Failure’http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv23n2/zerbe.pdf
    It’s clear, precise and certainly serves as a Libertarian 101 primer on the costs of government interference in the market place. Thanks for the link.
    I use the word “socialist” because you feel comfortable about it and it eliminates the need for response on your part. I don’t see the type of Conservative economics that you value being a major player in this adjustment process for the reasons I stated. For one thing much of what you expose is very American and so early 20th Century and builds on values that most of the world has not shared in their history. Institutions such as the Socialist ones you dislike have long traditions especially in Europe and, like all enduring institutions, have built in survival mechanisms that will trigger resistance when threatened. Because there is nothing like an international Conservative movement to bolster them they will look elsewhere for their substance and no doubt the financial and cultural institutions will follow. Look for a global reset at the most with a revaluation of currency to capital and the predictable inflation that can be managed along the way.
    Nothing personal but I feel you’re wrong on this one. There will not be a collapse. The armies of socialist turned communist countries will not be goose stepping through Western Europe and Obama will be re-elected by default because he’s just mediocre enough to cause no trouble to the ruling class.

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  32. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    More on the European Conservative movement from
    http://www.ebireflections.com/2/2/4
    and
    http://www.social-europe.eu/2011/04/the-new-progressive-conservatism-in-europe/
    “Is conservatism dead on the Continent? Even the more right-wing governing coalitions of Germany and Italy are participating in the culture of international bailouts for bankrupt governments, as European nations are being subsumed into a mammoth superstate. Where is the conservative movement in Europe? Does it exist?
    Conservatism is indeed rare in Europe. A major reason is the long legacy of fascism, which helped to discredit much of the European right. The decline of authoritarian regimes in Europe after the defeat of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy at the end of World War II also entailed the collapse of any other existing conservative forces.”

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  33. George Rebane Avatar

    Fair enough PaulE. I use socialist in the sense that I have essayed here, which we have discussed before. I do find it remarkable that with all the emphasis that I put on this being an epochal time – “… the last great century of Man.” – with regard to almost all dimensions of human existence, accompanied by clear statements that we can’t go back, and outlines of alternative redistributive futures, and in spite of that you still interpret my ongoing remarks in that light.
    On the other hand, when one reads the liberal media, there is a constant drumbeat of wanting to go back to the early part of the 20th century and redo the assault on Mt Socialism – socio-political stasis codified. In these exhortations for a “fundamental transformation”, I for one am still looking for a new idea that the progressive/communist cadre from TeddyR to Lenin did not already exhaust (please note that I left out Stalin).
    No personal offense taken in your disagreement. Such is the sum and stuff of pleasurable debate on this blog, and I especially enjoy our jousts. And, of course, instead of my own dire predictions, I’m rooting for your assessment of an “adjustment” in the world’s economies, accompanied by a “reevaluation of currency”, no matter that I am still blind to such pleasant sounding prognostications. All of us who frequent these pages will be closely monitoring the developments.

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  34. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE 340pm – these analyses that confuse the conservative/libertarian ideologies with collective fascism are a tiresome undertaking to refute one more time. No one yet knows what “progressive conservatism” means besides being an oxymoron within traditional semantics. I will take a pass and let my published words stand.

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  35. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    It’s an interesting study though to look at Europe to access it there is anything like the Conservative movement in this country. Without the underpinnings of history that fuel the romanticism of the movements there is not much to hold onto. There seems to be a swing between center left and center right that sways with the current fashion. Right now it’s on a center right arch for sure.
    My observations are that Socialist institutions (your defination of course) fight for survival much like corporations. If they don’t get fed they cease to exist so their only mission is to eat what they need to survive and grow. Corporations eat profit, socialistic institutions eat tax revenue. They are also driven by the feeders at their trough with whatever diversions for influence are available to justify their existence such as special interest money. In that sense they are similar in their structure and mechanism when it comes to survival.

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  36. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE – perhaps another more lucid way to say “Corporations eat profit, socialistic institutions eat tax revenue.” is that “… socialistic institutions eat other people’s profits.” With that distinction, I agree on the ‘need to survive and grow’ objective.

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  37. bill tozer Avatar
    bill tozer

    What was the topic? Got so involved reading the autobiography of Vlad the Impaler that I forgot to toss the house boys in the basement some tofu. Vladdy, Vladdy, Vladdy, what a character! Oh yeah, the topic? Bailing out Euroland. Hmmm. Well, hyper inflation has not reared its ugly head yet so everything must be ok, right? Yes, Paul and George and even little ole me agree there will unrest in the streets. That is a given. Take away a baby’s baba or dinky and they scream bloody murder. I also agree that we should have and definitely DO have current safety nets. For those who are too old to work or disabled or who simply do not have the mental capacity to do even the simplest tasks, we have disability, SSI, crazy money, food stamps and Medical. Think it was the Pilgrims on the boat that quoted the Bible and instituted the policy “if a man will NOT work, he will not eat.” Hunger is a great motivator to alter behavior. Hunger has driven moi on and on in the harshest of environments. All in all, I am glad some on the Fed Reserve do not believe in throwing good money after bad because politicians totally lack the stomach to solve Euroland’s big headaches. Raise tuition and there will be rioting in the streets. Make union folk pay 3% more into their pensions or pay 6% of their health care and again there will be rioting in the streets. A total no brainer. http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=OBR&date=20111202&id=14584493

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  38. RL Crabb Avatar

    I must be channeling Bill Tozer. Today, for some unknown reason, I was thinking about Vlad Dracul. I was remembering how he dealt with the safety net problem. He invited all the the poor and disabled folks to a banquet and after they arrived and settled in for the feast, the doors were bolted from the outside and the building set on fire. What a sense of humor!

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  39. bill tozer Avatar
    bill tozer

    Wonder what delicious food Vladdy served? A feast is a terrible thing to waste. Yep, Vlad was an unusual fellow and had a odd penchant for decorating the roadways. In his book “The Misunderstood One”, Vlad shares his highly guarded secrets on home improvements.

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  40. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Pretty clever George (02 December 2011 at 06:05 PM)
    The similarities of the food chain are obvious. Corps and “socialist” enterprises have to eat to survive. Both have to justify their existence by filling a need for goods or services. How can we defend ourselves against make work defense contractors that loot us of billions by promoting needless wars through special interest money. Since the only customers war toy suppliers have are the gvernment shouldn’t we not allow lobby money to enter the arena affecting elections and policy. That’s not free enterprise and has nothing to do with free trade.

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  41. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE – you raise a very complex part of the lobbying issue. I’m not aware of any evidence on defense contractors “promoting needless wars” or “looting” the government. Most certainly I saw none of that in my years in the combat systems development industry. We submitted proposals that the government advertised in The Commerce Business Daily. The only weaknesses we saw were in the government’s procurement system that was managed in many places by political hacks instead astute technicians. Those were the individuals and projects that we and other contractors literally saved by our own performance. You have no idea how many unbilled hours those of us on the front end spent in sweating solutions to our nation’s defense problems. The Soviets had no such hours expended in the behalf of their workers’ paradise.
    By its very DNA, government does everything inefficiently, including procuring guns, grenades, and green technologies. At least in the defense industry we are competent.

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  42. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    “Political Hacks” ? Does that mean they were placed in there to do the bidding of special interests? Explain what you mean. “Promoting needless wars” is indeed a defensible opinion.
    They don’t necessarily lobby directly, instead the use the collection agency services of the Republicrats to voice their opinions.
    Of course they promote military necessity to sell their products. You can’t be so naive to suppose they don’t. They chum the water to get the big fish. I consider them to be socialistic by your terms since they wouldn’t exist except for the necessity of the government products and services they provide.
    You certainly won’t see infrared guided cluster bombs for sale at B & C

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  43. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE – ‘political hacks’ were managers and execs promoted because of their connections and not due to professional accomplishments. “Promoting military necessity” is not “promoting needless wars”, there seems to have been a shift here.
    By extension, your reasoning points to any business venture to be ‘socialistic’ if they sell anything from soup to submarines to the government. And all of them would exist without the US govt being a customer – they would simply sell to other governments. Do you know where you are going with this line of argument? I don’t.

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  44. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    To the extent that military contractors lobby to support foreign policy favorable to military interventions that would use their goods and services I would say they are guilty of promoting war for the purposes of their own profit. There are no free bullets. This of course is no surprise. I doubt there would be many wars if there was no profit. In our case we just borrow money by increasing the debt. Socialism? You bet.

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  45. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE – you seem to admit war as ‘push phenomenon’ by the sword makers convincing the king to arm and fight his neighbor. I think reality is bit more complex. For eons kings have envied the riches next door and have decided all on their own to get by force what they could not from trade. Throughout history this ‘pull phenomenon’ has caused kings to command their sword makers to arm their armies.
    In recent years the situation has become more complex, but it would still strain credulity to ascribe the rise of the British or Soviet empires to the exhortation of English and Russian sword makers. Even Krupp did not goad Hitler into the ideology of a master race requiring Lebensraum attained through force of arms. It was Hitler who told Krupp to ignore Versailles and gear up for war.
    Even today it’s a mixed bag of whether national policy leads arms procurement or armament manufacturers lead foreign policy. Most certainly it was the former between WW1 and WW2, and now it looks like we’re back to a lean military.
    But I would agree that the government-industrial complex is more than a bit of expressed socialism, because here we are talking about companies that could not exist without the government as a customer, and the government would be instantly singing castrato without the reliable supply from its industrial minions.

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  46. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    An example that I can use with some authority is the situation in Northern Ireland which was exploited by the arms dealers on both sides for their profit. The war would have ended years earlier but was encouraged because of the ready access to patriotic cash on both sides. Once the Boston money slowed down the war slowed down. .
    In my opinion the war in Iraq was largely make work for contractors who were big contributors to Repub campaigns. Modern war is largely taxpayer subsidy for high tech industry.

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  47. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    correction
    I meant to write “contributions to Republicrat campaigns”
    My inherent prejudice shows. I have to remind myself they are essentially the same,

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  48. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “In my opinion the war in Iraq was largely make work for contractors who were big contributors to Repub campaigns.”
    This is borderline insanity. Dems in Congress were nearly as enthusiastic as the R’s were for meddling in the gulf, and folks like Sam Nunn (D-GA) were as relentless a booster of military tech as any R (especially if jobs got moved to Georgia), and Dems like DiFi have been delighted to feed the machine.

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  49. George Rebane Avatar

    GregG 1058am – I guess you didn’t see PaulE’s 829am where dispensed the blame a little more evenly. Apologies, I could/should have just made the correction for Paul, but I got lazey.

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  50. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    This is an illustration and begs the question should defense contractors be allowed to influence policy that brings them profit?
    “The ten largest defense contractors in the nation spent more than $27 million lobbying the federal government in the last quarter of 2009, according to a review of recently-filed lobbying records……Such an increase in lobbying expenditures is partly a reflection of just how profitable the business of waging war can be. Each of these companies earned billions of dollars in defense contracts this past year. As the U.S. ramps up its military activities overseas, and the army is stretched thin by other ventures, it stands to reason that the contracts won’t dry up any time soon.”
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/21/top-defense-contractors-s_n_431542.html

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