Rebane's Ruminations
November 2011
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George Rebane

[This is the transcript of my regular KVMR commentary broadcast on 18nov11.

Princeton’s progressive economist Alan Blinder is in the national media again (14nov11 WSJ) arguing against the flat tax.  Ignoring all the benefits that flat taxes have brought to post-Soviet eastern European countries, he lambasts America’s reconsideration of the flat tax as the “bouncing back of a bad penny.”   Before taking a closer look at Professor Blinder’s arguments against the flat tax, let’s review some basics of the new tax proposals.

LeadingBlindThe Flat Tax is often mentioned together with the Fair Tax without many people knowing the difference.  A flat tax is computed as a fixed percentage of your taxable income, which according to its promoters, is easily computed with few or no deductions or exemptions.  The Fair Tax is actually a federal sales tax imposed in place of the current income tax.  Both taxes have provisions for giving some advantage to the poor wage earners and consumers.

The prime criticism against these leveling taxes is that, yes they cause more people to pay taxes on a more even basis, but they both come out being unfair in the sense that they are not as progressive as the current taxing scheme.  Progressive is taken to be good in and of itself since it makes the higher earners pay a more disproportionate share of their income in taxes.  Today this disproportion has the top 5% of earners paying almost 60% of all federal income taxes, and almost half the workers paying no federal income tax at all.


The flat tax would not tax corporations or capital gains because corporations in reality pay no taxes, they just pass their tax expense on to their customers in the prices they charge.  The governments then get to collect even more taxes from the higher sales taxes they get from the subsequently higher prices.  Of course, high prices are hardest on the poor and act as a general friction on the economy.

Taxing capital gains is another friction on the economy in that it inhibits investment monies going to the most efficient accelerators of the economy, and in many ways also imposes double taxation on the gained capital.

So Professor Blinder opposes the flat tax claiming that computing taxable income is made no easier than it is now.  And since most of the complexity of both tax schemes is involved in computing what can be taxed, there is no gain in going to a flat tax.  But this argument is based on the false premise that taxable income will still be computed in the current convoluted way, and then begs the question by using the false premise as the argument for supporting the proposition that a flat tax is no simpler than what we have now.

The good professor then doubles down on his assertion that the flat tax is no good because it is not progressive as is our current tiered-rate system.  This again uses the classical logical fallacy of begging the question by using the absence of the premise characterizing the proposition to attack it.  Here Blinder wants us to tacitly assume that a progressive tax is better than a flat tax, and then he points out that the flat tax is not progressive.  Therefore the flat tax is not better than the current tax system.  Got that?

Reduced down, Blinder states progressive taxes are the only good taxes.  The flat tax is not progressive, therefore a flat tax is no good.  Begging the question is a well-worn and very successful logical fallacy used by debaters, salesmen, and politicians to win arguments with light thinkers.

Blinder finally argues that it is politically difficult and dangerous to simplify the existing tax code.  Therefore the politicians will not do it.  Therefore reality dictates that we should give up working for a simplified tax code.  Throughout this Dr Blinder has definitely been leading the blind – I hope that you are not one of them?

My name is Rebane, and I also expand on these and other themes in my Union columns, and on georgerebane.com where this transcript appears.  These opinions are not necessarily shared by KVMR.  Thank you for listening.

Posted in , ,

26 responses to “On flat tax Blinder is leading the blind”

  1. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    The more convoluted the ta system is the better it is for the maintenance of the present system. Just add up all the people and money to maintain it! It also allows for favors and just like the Mafia, it enables people who can’t even tie their own shoes to have incredible power. Politicians want and cherish power and when you have a tax system raising 2.5 trillion dollars and you can pick the winners and losers, what a rush! GE apparently paid ZERO again on 14 billion bucks, they are winners because they are “friends of Obama”. This goes on with them all though.
    I cannot support a flat tax at this time and I have resisted it since it was first recommended on the national scene. The reason is the politicians would take the current budget amount and divide it out and that would be the tax percentage. We see what Obama did with that when he increased the budget by 25% in one season and now everyone uses that number as the floor.
    Also, any change in the system would require the removal of the old system first because we know the politicians would prefer to leave both on place. Mandates from one level down to the next, usually without funding, is another activity that must be curtailed before any change in the system. We saw how California politicians, when spanked by Prop 13, decide to make their monopoly a “fee for service” government and when all is said and done the amount of taxes/fees, received since 1978 is about the same as if Prop 13 was never passed.
    I think the people thinking outside the bos will always lose this argument on which system is best because American have been on the opiate of tax results and withholding for so long that only a revolution can change things.

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  2. Ben Emery Avatar

    How about payroll and consumption taxes George? What is implied by your language is that most people pay no taxes when actually working for a paycheck population pays way more % of their income than do the top income brackets. Once again faulty logic where life is broken down into straight mathematical breakdown. Someone who spends 100% of their income vs someone who only spends 50% of their income makes taxation a much different animal. The main problem I see at RR is the view that taxes are a punishment instead of the dues. The more you make the more of the system is used. This means physically, intellectual, and the intangible.
    Here is some commentary from somebody who has a bit more experience with economics than yourself.
    If the 1% had less would the 99% be better off? Wrong Narrative presented by the status quo.
    http://www.marketplace.org/topics/economy/commentary/reich-if-1-had-less-would-99-be-better

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  3. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE – I believe you changed the subject to one of what is the ‘fair fraction’ each earner should pay in total taxes to the government – a worthy subject we should take up, but not one I treated in this commentary on certain types of tax policy.
    And that the ‘rich’ use more of the ‘public systems’ than others is patently false. The truck driver on a public road is not using the road for his capitalist boss, he is using it for himself and his family because the road provides for the job he has. He and the business owner and the investor are all paying for infrastructure that they benefit equally from, counter to the unsupported assertions by Obama’s late consumer czar. If anything, the wealthy need fewer public amenities than those having less, because they can also provide for themselves through alternative private means. The poor can provide even less, and public amenities are truly a wealth transfer for their convenience and enjoyment.
    Your mention of Robert Reich is an unfortunate citation. The man is an established Leftwing ideologue, and not much of an economist whose statements on economics should deter no one from voicing their own. But here he speaks of public awareness and misses the point completely. It is the Left (e.g. typified by the current occupiers) who maintain that the 99% would be better off if the 1% had less. Reich supports this and hearkens back to a totally asymmetric post-WW2 world economy to demonstrate that everyone was better off when incomes were more equal.
    His lack of immediate reference to the Great Doubling, accelerating technology, and workforce skills demonstrates a profound stasis in his thought processes and understanding of major economic forces. It is fortunate that Berkeley has him teaching public policy rather than economics – but then again, bad public policy is what got us into this mess.
    And to argue that our present tax policy is not punitive to those who can and will, strains credulity. Why do even level-headed Democrats admit that this system is need of a major overhaul.

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  4. Mike Thornton Avatar

    George Writes:
    “The truck driver on a public road is not using the road for his capitalist boss, he is using it for himself and his family because the road provides for the job he has…”
    You are, of course, kidding, right?
    I’ve heard some pretty twisted logic before, but this “takes the cake”.

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  5. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Give us your interpretation of the road then. All you do is criticize so if you want any credibility, describe the point George was making in your own terms.

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  6. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Todd: I’ve told you before, I don’t care what you think. I don’t know how many times, I have to say that before you understand it?
    As far as George’s “point”, a flat tax is a regressive tax, which makes sense why he would support it. I simply don’t buy the premise that the truck driver should pay part of the capitalist’s tax bill for the privileged of making said capitalist a profit.
    Let the capitalist drive the freaking truck himself. let’s see how long that lasts!

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  7. Walt Avatar
    Walt

    Mike. Maybe ALL the truck drivers should take a week or two off.
    Maybe then you will feel the bite of their importance.
    We pay for our use of roads every time we put fuel in the tank. Some of us more than others. I pay more in road taxes than a guy
    driving a Prious. So I say the prious owner should pay a higher tax to bring him equal to me.
    Ever notice those little yellow stickers on eco buggies? They somehow rate special privileges on the roads.( but pay less taxes)
    They can use the carpool lanes without carpooling. ( nice…)
    MY truck should have that sticker. ( I pay more) Since those lanes are supposed to cut down on “smog”, and slow traffic,idling and so-called ” big engine pollutants”,are supposed to the culprits, would it not be better for “those” vehicles be the ones using the “express lanes”, and not the “eco” crapcans that can afford to sit in traffic?
    So do explain the bass ackwards logic behind that.

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  8. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Thornton refuses to answer our questions because he can’t. His level of response in these threads is too simpleton so I can understand why, with his socialist/communist ideology, he would dodge our entreaties. (He likes slogans though) It is apparent he cannot compete here in the discussion of ideas so I suggest he travel on over to the liberal blogs where his intelligence levels are equaled.

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  9. George Rebane Avatar

    MikeT 1108am – But then what will the former truck driver do?
    (BTW, most of us who started businesses worked untold hours and did ALL the jobs ourselves at first. Then when the business grew we were able to create more jobs and hire others to fill them. Then we went on to do other work to grow the business. Most trucking companies are started by guys and gals (often married) who drove their own rigs in the beginning. Then they were able to hire drivers and provide other jobs. Capitalism kinda works that way, and we all benefit.)

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  10. Russ Steele Avatar

    We all pay for the roads when we fuel up our vehicles for both CA and US sponsored roads, except for the EV drivers, who use the road, but pay no road taxes. The hybrid car owner used the road as much as a totally carbon powered vehicle, but pays fewer road taxes. CARB wants 1 of 10 vehicles purchased between 2012 and 2025 to be electrics or hybrids. Why should those driving carbon fuel vehicles be paying for the roads used by all these EV/Hybrid vehicles?
    That raises another tax questions. Under our current system the roads are gong to hell. When the new CAFE standards are implemented, fuel consumption will be significantly reduced, but the miles traveled will be about the same or more as the population increase, but their will be less money for the maintain the roads.
    If we use the socialist solution we will have to tax the rich more to improve the roads, so they will not destroy the EVs and Hybrids in huge pot holes. From the capitalist point of view, all road user should pay for the development and maintenance of the road structure. Does this mean more toll roads? This is historically how our early roads were paid for, drivers paid a toll. We may have to return to that mode to make sure we are being fair to all vehicle owners.
    Or, some percentage of the flat tax, paid by everyone for road development and maintenance.

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  11. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Walt, the carpool lane privilege is not in place for hybrids any more, only for EV’s. With new electric charging stations going in, and prices coming down on EV’s, as well as 53 mpg fuel efficiency standards I think you will see a lot more of them in the next 10 years. I propose we tax vehicles based on weight, then you guys can pay your fair share for your Suburbans and F-350’s.
    By the way, the truck drivers are going on a two-week vacation in some parts of the country. I hear the teamsters are supporting both the recall in Wisconsin and the roll back of anti-union legislation in Ohio, which is of course their democratic right in a free society, so we may be able to see who will do better under an organized set of work actions.
    By the way, my friend who started a trucking company under the exact conditions described by George above is the number one investor in two algae biofuel plants in California.
    heh…heh….heh….

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  12. Walt Avatar
    Walt

    Russ. you bring up some great points. I would like to bring up one historical foot note when it comes to “road taxes”. Back before we even dreamed of a road tax, our local roads were maintained by the land owners the “public” roads cut across. The County owned at least one horse drawn road grader.( I met the owner of one that I know of.) It was passed from land owner to land owner. They had a vested interest to keep the roads in half way decent shape to get their goods to market.
    We actually have the same thing going on today. Just downsized a little. ( also weather you want to or not) Those living in town, must repair and maintain the city sidewalk in front of their property at their own expense. OR so I have read. ( but that may vary from town to town, and county by county.)

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  13. Walt Avatar
    Walt

    Please post the tax revenue supplied by that bio fuel maker.
    I know of a few people that have a bio fuel “still” of their vary
    own and love to brag about NOT paying taxes on it.
    As for the HOV lane, your correct.( but ONLY as of July)
    Here is the whole list from the state.
    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm#vehicles
    Still, the vehicles that are said to be “gross polluters” in congested traffic should have first access to that lane. ( to cut down on idle time, reduce smog, and save fuel.) let the so called ‘Non polluter” rot in traffic, since they are not paying any road tax as it is, and are using the road for FREE, and adding wear and tear at us tax payers expense. Good luck making an argument that
    “electric” should have “special” rights to that lane, “just because”
    they are zero emission. ( except for the ozone they put off. remember the “Ozone Hole” fear trip?)lol

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  14. Walt Avatar
    Walt

    Ad don’t toot your horn over bio fuel. It’s not that great for the environment, and is more expensive that the good stuff, and you get less bang for the buck, not to mention ounce for ounce.
    But since it makes you feel less “guilty” ( ECO Progressives love guilt trips. Even their own.LOL)to pay more for less, have at it.
    I hear you can afford to play that game. I can’t.( and won’t)

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  15. Mike Thornton Avatar

    “We all benefit”
    Gee George, it’s pretty clear (according to the data) that a minority is benefiting a much higher rate, while the living standard for the majority is dropping like a rock. That same minority continues to sell this country out, in order to lines their own pockets. Maybe you don’t have a problem with that, but I do. This is (of course) all happening in an era where the tax burden for the wealthiest Americans has been reduced by a third.
    I just don’t know what you guys want?
    Everything, I guess….

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  16. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 142pm – so that we can all appreciate your chortle, could you please let us know how the biofuel enterprise and its eventual market performance is funded so that it attracted your clever friend’s investment?
    MikeT 229pm – you seem to be switching subjects all over the place. My feeble attempts to keep up don’t seem to work. I couldn’t find your answer to my 1145 question. And in your 229 you seem to imply that the trucking company owner and his truck driver should benefit equally from the success of the company. Finally, you continue quoting the fiction about the tax burden for the wealthiest having been reduced. The wealthiest in all categories pay the greatest share ever of the collected taxes – their share has been going up, not down – please check the data. Focusing on tax rates within this convoluted tax policy, instead of share of revenues paid, is a fool’s errand and the time-worn effort of the populist naif or fast-talking scoundrel.

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  17. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Elizabeth Warren on the roads.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/EddieMGeller

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  18. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Oh wait, here’s the real one.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx2H31ZgkIQ

    Like

  19. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    To a hammer…once again. The number one client of the biofuel from algae company my friend is the primary investor in? the United States Navy. What he sees is this: he can invest in a company, support national defense, and secure a permanent supply of fuel for his 5,000 truck fleet in California at the same time….hmmm..the entire company is a hedge against rising fuel prices.

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  20. George Rebane Avatar

    Yes SteveF, it is indeed a hedge as long as the taxpayers through a profligate government are paying the difference and securing your friend’s investment. Woe be to him, when the ‘Solyndra plug’ is pulled. Actually, our Navy’s fuel security is guaranteed by an ever expanding national reserve of economical fossil fuels and uranium, not socially engineered alternative energy projects that have no economical basis.

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  21. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I think you need to do a little research George, the DOD is investing in biofuels because they consider fossil fuels insecure. My friend is investing in biofuel because he wants his own supply. Why no mention from ou of the huge subsidies fossil fuels and nuclear get?
    I find it interesting that you would support subsidizing fossil fuels, but not a secure supply of domestically produced alternative fuel. That just tells me it is not about the subsidy, it is about ideological support of carbon based fuels with you.

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  22. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF – I don’t support subsidizing fossil fuels or nuclear energy; don’t know where you got that idea. My understanding is that the DOD is ‘investing in biofuels’ because of political expediancy – they have to accept these monies in order to get funds needed for real programs. I have read nowhere that the military is in any way concerned that biofuels will play any significant role in the nation’s defense for the foreseeable future. Would be glad to be disabused if this is not true.
    Your friend’s investment is perfectly rational given the government’s burdening regulations and partially compensating subsidies/guarantees. But I do believe that any unclassified energy or technology developments that the government undertakes for its own reasons should also be available to American taxpayers, both corporate and private individuals. I hope I’m being clear here, and that you don’t call that kind of information transfer a subsidy.

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  23. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Seriously, you have not heard of the DOD investing in developing biofuels as a strategic defense initiative?
    http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/STO/Programs/Biofuels.aspx
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/us-navy-tests-biofuel-to-power-ship-with-overnight-cruise-along-southern-california-coast/2011/11/16/gIQAtRJJSN_story.html
    If you don’t support subsidizing fossil fuels why do you have a hard on for blasting renewable research, development and deployment, while remaining silent on the tens of billions per year we spend to subsidize fossil fuels? If we paid the true cost of fossil fuels and nuclear renewables would be quite competitive. If you were being consistent your position should be “end the subsidies for all energy” and let the chips fall where they may. So I am expecting you to come out soon against the $7 billion per year DOE nuclear subsidy, or the freight hauling break coal gets.
    Finally, of course I support technology investments in R&D being made by government and being transferred to the public and private sector and don’t consider it a subsidy.

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  24. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    By the way, I take you at your word that you were not aware of the DOD investments, but I’m not sure how you could have missed it, it has been all over the energy news for a couple of years now.

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  25. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF – Where did you draw the conclusion that I was “not aware” of DOD investing in biofuels – please reread my comment. I have been aware of DOD efforts in this area ever since I and my company were involved in the Navy’s ‘Kelp Farm’ project in the 1970s (growing macrocystis in the open ocean). I have described that on these pages.
    Having the government doing biofuel energy research in these times is a misallocation of funds when considered in the larger scheme of things. Perhaps if you revealed how such programs can help the country’s strategic position – what are the expressions of utility that are being served – then we could all get a better understanding. Right now it all looks like a politically motivated series of ‘feel good’ projects. Now, encouraging the private sector to do such research is something that may show promise. Although if there was any real money at the end of that rainbow, there would be private investment going into the area.

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  26. Mikey McD Avatar

    It is a false belief that someone who makes $251,000 uses the system more than someone who makes $249,000 (or $49,000 for that matter). Such a belief is void of facts…Who (the ‘rich’ or the ‘poor’ uses free health care, public education, WIC, welfare, unemployment insurance, etc?
    One can easily prove that someone making $49k a year uses far more services than someone making $250k year.

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