Rebane's Ruminations
November 2011
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George Rebane

The political season is in full swing again; actually I don’t think that it has taken a breather since 2008.  The Great Recession and all the government programs designed to bring us back into a fine and fundamentally transformed fettle has highlighted an ideological rift in America of proportions to rival its Grand Canyon.  And the result has been a debate that is now changing into a shouting match in the streets.

That would be all well and good if it laid the groundwork for greater understanding between the sides.  Not a chance.  And one of the main reasons is the fact that, starting with the politicians in Washington, we don’t argue our respective cases very well.  The Left and Right, having long ago given up on each other, are both trying to convince the supposedly undecided Middle.  They do this by putting on a show of attempting to persuade the other through various arguments relying on a supposedly shared sense of justice, equality, fairness, with even an occasional nod to reason and logic.

I don’t think the Middle is all that impressed with the rhetorical fireworks.  Some of that may be due to limited interest or background in things political, historical, international, or even economical.  Although the last part is beginning to get people’s attention, especially those looking for a job.

Admittedly, this is not the most favorable view of those ideologically innocent millions, so let’s assume that enough undecideds out there are interested in the country’s direction and fate, and that they have been keeping up with what’s going on.  So let’s assume that what and how we argue matters.

ConfusedIf so, then the ‘where was X when Y first happened?’ sounds silly right off the starting blocks.  You know the ones I mean; as when Congress or the Administration is about to do the next questionable (aka dumb) big thing.  The often brilliant retort by the defenders of the proposal is an indignant, ‘Well, where was (Bush/Clinton/…) when all this first began?’  And that repartee, accompanied by a well-delivered smirk, is supposed to defend the issue?  Most certainly not to anyone paying attention.

You see, it really doesn’t matter where anyone was when it first happened or was first opposed or first ignored or whatever.  That was then, this is now.  Logically, the puffed up defender responds instead by asserting to all within earshot that the current proposal is justified, as a what? – a belated tit-for-tat, a retribution? Against whom? For what?  Almost never is there anyone to demand that he answers the criticism by citing the merits of the present case, and not by some dubious dredging of politicized history.


This kind of retort reaches nosebleed heights of absurdity when it is levied against an organization or relationship that wasn’t even in existence in that bygone day of the ‘where was when’ repartee.  And more so when the, say, organization subsequently came into existence to address precisely the issue in question.  How many times have we seen the ‘where was when’ argument derail any hope for a productive dialogue, and often end it with a false sense of victory or defeat, depending on what side you took.

Now we come to the fine art of begging the question.  The definition of this type of logical fallacy has spread enough so that few understand the real meaning of the phrase which actually has been studied since Aristotle covered it in his Prior Analytics (in classical literature this fallacy is referred to by its Latin petitio principii).   To beg the question is to use a proposition’s premise – often cleverly stated and/or hidden – to justify the proposition that is the objective of your discourse.  And that can be done in a wondrous number of ways.  In these pages it has been an unintended(?) staple of debate for years.

As an example, let’s look at a well-argued proposition that is now law – Obamacare.  We have asked whether it was best and proper (constitutional) for the Democrats to shove nationalized healthcare down the country’s throat.  The justification most often given is that Obamacare will provide healthcare for millions who previously had none.  So Obamacare is said to satisfy this requirement – but hold on.  Obamacare itself is justified only if it is the best way (efficient, cost effective, etc) of delivering healthcare to the nation.  And that is exactly what Obamacare’s critics dispute.  So the defense, by the administration and other Leftwingers arguing that Obamacare is proper public policy because it will provide healthcare for additional millions, simply begs the question.  And the light thinkers of the land just lap it up as a sufficient apology for Obamacare, and are happy to move on to their next mental challenge.

Let’s conclude this little exposition with a logical fallacy that is habitually used by the Left’s intellectuals, a fallacy whose depth is only exceeded by its wide application.  It may be summarized by ‘Love the principle, love its progeny (its expressions)’ – or more formally, the confusing of a semantic taxonomy .  The proponents of this fallacy do not reliably recognize the conceptual difference between a higher level notion like ‘freedom’ and specific expressions of freedom.  For example, expressions of freedom in a society may range from an individual being able to travel anywhere at his whim, to also driving there at an excessive speed and killing someone in the process.

The naïf in this logical fallacy will accuse the previously declared freedom lover of being guilty or contributing to the death of someone killed by a speeding driver – ‘You wanted people to be free to go anywhere, and now seeing someone killed, you’re arguing for restricting driving speeds.  As a lover of freedom, how can you be such a hypocrite?’  By this time, dear reader, you are shaking your head and saying that no one can be logically so debilitated.  Yet a short perusal of the comment streams in this and other blogs, and, of course, Left liberal media outlets like MSNBC will quickly disabuse you of this comforting belief about your fellow man.

As a recent example from these very pages, a leading local Leftwing intellectual strongly argues that’s it’s a Rightwing hypocrisy to be for states’ rights while at the same time condemning AB32 as an expression of such rights.  No kidding, that is really how they think.  And this is just one of many such arguments in these pages that impose ‘Love the principle, love its progeny.’ as their only appeal to ‘reason’.

The careful reader will notice that this logical deficit requires not only the ability to mangle a semantic taxonomy, but also to concurrently apply a liberal (sic) dollop of the AND (‘All or Nothing Definition’) fallacy discussed in a previous exposition (here).

Cobbling all this together is a complex and confusing tour de force indeed.  Make no mistake about it, the stuff we tackle here is hard enough as is without wandering off into logical la-la lands.

[correction]  As noted from Mr Steve Frisch’s 410pm comment and my 541pm reply below, the above paragraph should read –

As a recent example from Russ Steele’s NC2012, a leading local Leftwing intellectual strongly argues that’s it’s a Rightwing hypocrisy to be for states’ rights while at the same time condemning California’s fuel economy standard as one expression of such rights.  No kidding, that is really how they think.  And this is just one of many such arguments in these pages that impose ‘Love the principle, love its progeny.’ as their only appeal to ‘reason’.

However, Mr Frisch’s claims as to the “fallacy” of this “entire post” stand as further evidence of the points highlighted in the above arguments.

[14nov2011 update]  We are fortunate to have Mr Steve Frisch step forward, identify himself, and accept the above bestowed ‘Left intellectual’ mantle.  His subsequent comments throw more light on the above presentation.  Specifically, I draw your attention to the following –

In your twisted delivery of the points above each and every one of you is still missing the key point; your position is inherently inconsistent with your pro states rights position. If you believe in states rights and do not believe the commerce clause should extend to imposing national standards (which is your key argument against national health care) California has a perfect right to set its own fuel economy standard.  Posted by: Steve Frisch | 14 November 2011 at 03:33 AM

Here Mr Frisch not only reinforces the ‘Love the principle, love its progeny’ mindset attributed to liberals, but he also introduces us to the fact that this logical fallacy can be used hierarchically – that it can be applied at all levels of the argument.  From the above comment we see Mr Frisch imposing ‘Love the commerce clause, love all its of it implementations.’  And if you don’t love all of its most pernicious implementations, you obviously don’t love the commerce clause, never mind the original intent of its inclusion in the Constitution.  Priceless.

(Please also see Mr Barry Pruett’s comments that follow from Mr Frisch’s.)

So now we have Mr Frisch having first imposed ‘Love states rights, love California’s fuel efficiency standards’, and then sliding effortlessly to ‘Love the commerce clause, love all of its implementations’.  If you don’t, then to a progressive you are being inconsistent and illogical if you still embrace states’ rights and the commerce clause of the Constitution.

Finally, the important point not to miss is his assessment of the “twisted delivery” herein.  To progressives like Mr Frisch, this presentation of the workings of a liberal mind really is a twisted piece of logic.  We must not diminish what has been said – the man is not embellishing or using hyperbole, this stuff is totally inaccessible to him and his brethren in both its exposition and in its application.   The magnitude of the gulf dividing us is fearsome.

Posted in ,

38 responses to “The Liberal Mind – Ridiculous Rules of Engagement (updated 14nov2011)”

  1. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Actually George, this debate did not occur here did it? I thought it occurred over on Russ’s blog:
    http://2012nevadacounty.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/rep-darrel-issa-paging-carb’s-mary-nichols/#respond
    And it was not over AB 32, it was over CAFE standards, and the contention by Darrel Issa that the state of California by setting its own fuel economy standards interfered with federal processes to establish fuel economy standards, and his request to question California officials over the issue.
    And I think my point was that it is inconsistent to oppose California establishing its own fuel standard when you are advocating for every state to be able to set their own standards for health care. Both issues are governed by the same constitutional principle, the commerce clause.
    So, in short, your entire post is based on inaccurate information, an untrue characterization of my comments, and a false definition of the logical fallacy at play.
    But I am flattered that you would call me an intellectual. I don’t consider that an elitist sign of disconnect with the American people as many of your posters here do.

    Like

  2. Russ Steele Avatar
    Russ Steele

    Steven F,
    The issue is not about if CA had the right to set green house gas emissions standards under AB32, it is about CARB’s influence in setting milage standards since these had been given under CAFE to NHTSA, not to the EPA or the White House, yet Mary Nichols held secret meetings with both by her own admission to implement millage standards under AB32. Here are some details from an article in Land Line Magazine.
    “In light of these concerns, I am expanding the Committee’s investigation into the activities of CARB leading up to the agreement for fuel economy standards MY 2017-2025,” Issa wrote. “I respectfully request your cooperation with this investigation.”
    CARB spokesman Stanley Young said CARB is working on a response to Issa’s letter.
    “Chairman Nichols welcomes the opportunity to respond to the letter,” Young told Land Line Magazine. “We do want to make it clear that, as for the claim of ‘apparent’ violation of federal law, we have federal court decisions in Vermont and California that definitively indicate that ARB’s vehicle standards are not fuel economy standards.”
    OOIDA Executive Vice President Todd Spencer blasted a process that would allow a state regulatory body to set federal policy.
    “Given the level of incompetence coupled with blatant arrogance exhibited by CARB in California on truck emissions, to think they could be calling the shots nationally is a disaster with far-reaching consequences almost too terrifying to comprehend,” Spencer said.
    California’s actions in setting fuel economy standards may have violated federal law, Issa said in the letter. Congress has delegated fuel mileage authority to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
    CARB’s regulation of greenhouse gas emissions involve fuel economy regulation, Issa wrote, even touting the “cost-effective” nature that CARB’s greenhouse gas rules create for vehicle owners.
    “In summary, it appears that CARB and the state of California are in the business of regulating fuel economy standards, in direct contravention of the law,” Issa wrote.
    ooo
    Issa’s Nov. 9 letter concludes with 18 questions, including many multiple-part questions, as well as requests for documentation of the negotiations between CARB, EPA and the White House. The committee wants to know what technical research in the EPA rule was provided by CARB, which CARB staffers worked on negotiations, and whether group meetings between the agencies were avoided in favor of tightly controlled meetings.
    “Do you believe that a closed and secretive process is the best approach for regulating an industry that affects nearly every American?” one question reads. “If no, explain in detail why CARB agreed to participate in such a process.”

    So, the issue is not about States Rights, it about the intrference of CARB in a federal mandated process, which they had no legal standing and it was done in secert.

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  3. bill tozer Avatar
    bill tozer

    Dr Rebane, your excellent article is demonstrated in true fashion by the first two comments posted above. Guess it really does matter when, not the substance, lol. And you are a big fat liar to boot!. I do wonder if anyone of the “when” aka, YOU started it first or anyone of the good ole name calling sides ever read your articles or simply skim over looking for a opportunity to come up with the ole “Hey, he started it and you are stupid” comments. These first two posts are perfect examples of your last sentence. “Make no mistake about it, the stuff we tackle here is hard enough as is without wandering off into logical la-la lands.” So very predicable…….

    Like

  4. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF 410pm – You are correct that your remark was specifically on California’s fuel economy standards (which does have an AB32 element). My remark in the post was directed to this comment on NC2012 – see your last sentence with my emphasis.
    stevefrisch says:
    November 9, 2011 at 22:35
    Yeah, lets see the CAFE standard (the Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards) is set by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. The law enacting the standard is signed by President George W. Bush in 2007. It is a federal standard.
    The 9th circuit court rules that the standard is too low. Obama negotiates a deal with all of the major auto manufactures that fixes the fight going on in the courts.
    In the mean time, California creates fuel economy standards on a state-wide basis, which is consistent with the negotiated standard, and because it is the biggest single state market in the nation auto makers decide to follow suit.
    Seems like Issa is barking up the wrong tree. If he has a problem with the fuel standard he can pass a law in Congress lowering the standard.
    Besides, how do you see opposing California’s standard as consistent with your belief in states rights?

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  5. George Rebane Avatar

    Administrivia – Jeff Pelline’s ad hominem droppings deleted.

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  6. bill tozer Avatar
    bill tozer

    It is all Bush’s fault so I hereby absolve myself from anything I post or do from here to eternity. All arguments must be subservient to the trump card I hold: Its Bush’s Fault. With that said, a wise man once told me years ago when I was facing a mountain of problems something to the effect: “When you wake up and find yourself up to your neck in quicksand and sinking fast, the first thing you ask yourself is how to get out of here, not how did you get here. You will have time later to figure out how you got there, but now the first question is how do get yer ass out of here before you go under.”

    Like

  7. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I have a new ad hominem attacker named M. Mooers over on my blog. I think these lefties are trained in the same schools by the same teachers. They are so boringly similar in their attacks. My golly, the fellow on my blog is writing the Steeve Enos/Frisch words almost verbatim.
    I think the problem is one of DNA. These liberals have to be motivated by some sort of DNA hormone emanating from some unknown organ they seem only to possess. I know hundreds of people in our community and the liberal seem to be the only ones stuck in a similar rut of thought. The conservatives seem to be more open to ideas and can even be swayed by a good argument. Liberals are unable to achieve even a semblance of change, they are stuck in mid 1800’s socialist thought.

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  8. Russ Steele Avatar
    Russ Steele

    Todd, it is the liberal brain? Scans show liberals and conservatives have different brain structures
    A new study shows that brain structure may have something to do with which side a person lands on the political scale, researchers told LiveScience.
    Researchers at Britain’s University College London scanned the brains of nearly 120 adults who ranked their political views on a scale of one to five from very liberal to very conservative.
    The results showed that those who considered themselves conservatives had a larger amygdala, a part of the brain that processes fear. Liberals tended to have a bigger anterior cingulate cortex, which monitors conflict and uncertainty.

    Details HERE.

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  9. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Maybe this will help.
    CARB – Diesel Emissions Overestimated 340%
    http://www.examiner.com/ecopolitics-in-los-angeles/calif-climategate-part-ii-air-board-s-340-pollution-error
    I wonder if hanging an exhaust filtration system on trucks will change their MPH. Just kidding, it will.
    So, the larger overestimation, the more restrictive the filter and the lower the MPH. Yeah?
    More info on Russ’s site. Interesting people, these CARB folks.

    Like

  10. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Oops My comment is awaiting moderation on Russ’s blog.

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  11. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Thanks Russ.

    Like

  12. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Russ thanks for the link on the difference in a libs and conservatives brains, I thought the libs didn’t have a brain they just live on emotions. LOL. I see the usual suspects from the left are emoting over here again. What a hoot!

    Like

  13. George Rebane Avatar

    For the record – the study announcing the finding of physiological differences in liberal and conservative brains that I have been citing was posted here
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2011/04/hardwiring-the-right-and-left.html

    Like

  14. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    In your twisted delivery of the points above each and every one of you is still missing the key point; your position is inherently inconsistent with your pro states rights position. If you believe in states rights and do not believe the commerce clause should extend to imposing national standards (which is your key argument against national health care) California has a perfect right to set its own fuel economy standard.

    Like

  15. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Interstate commerce clause – Congress shall have Power to regulate Commerce with among the several States. It is well-settled law that Congress can impose transportation standards in connection with interstate commerce. For instance, if different states have different standards for trucks, one would have to change vehicles when entering California as a truck from Illinois may not comply. Thnis type of activity was exactly what the framers intended to thwart. In the future, the tenth amednment will play a larger role in constitutional law, and we will see a roling back of federal authority under the commerce clause. Healthcare is and will be one of these cases.

    Like

  16. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Well said Barry.

    Like

  17. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “…California has a perfect right to set its own fuel economy standard.”
    Even if the numbers are mangled / faked by an unelected board of flat assed bureaucrats?
    http://2012nevadacounty.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/rep-darrel-issa-paging-carb%e2%80%99s-mary-nichols/#comment-866

    Like

  18. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Barry, well done. Nice smackdown of the “smarter than the average bear” fellow.

    Like

  19. Barry Pruett Avatar

    This just in…the Supreme Court will hear the Obamacare case that emanates from Florida. They will hear the Florida case which held that the mandate was a violation of the commerce clause. The ruling from the Supreme Court should come out around June 2012.

    Like

  20. bill tozer Avatar
    bill tozer

    The left always takes an issue and runs it to the ridiculous extreme to make their point and justify their position. If someone is for property rights, then the counter argument is that person secretly wants to poison his well and pollute the water table of his community. The War Between The States did not obviate states’ rights as some would like to believe. Concerning Obamacare, one would have to argue a national defense issue to rationalize, then justify, the mandate using the Commence Claus. Health insurance is not sold across state lines as each state has its own insurance commissions and state run regularity boards which sets the rates and coverage providers must adhere to. But it is the individual mandate that is the real issue here, although the proponents love to use the Commence Claus. Can the Federal Government force me to buy something solely because I am alive and residing within its borders? Can any individual be coerced to purchase a product by the Feds simply because one has breathing air? This is where States Rights come in. A State can make me carry an ID, so I need to purchase a California State ID if I opt out of having a CDL. Probably costs about 10 bucks. That is the state, not the Feds. Federal passports are not free either, but no citizen is required to have a passport or travel abroad. I believe a state can set its own standards, as evidenced by a recent trip to Montana. I pulled into a gas station and the pumps looked rather odd, yet vaguely familiar. The nozzles did not have the black foreskin you have to pull back to dispense petro. Nope, just the metal nozzle that pumps faster and doesn’t always click off like we used to have here. What a joy to have effortless pumps back if even only for a few minutes. States Rights.

    Like

  21. Ben Emery Avatar

    So much to talk about but I will stick to the obamacare. I like Paul don’t like it because it isn’t the answer. Our so called “representative” likes to throw out that 53% of Americans don’t like it while implying we all agree on the reasons. No in fact more Americans don’t like it due to the fact there was no public option than for the reasons Mr McClintock and my guess a majority at RR. I will say this if obamacare is allowed to be fully implemented, remember it doesn’t come into play for another couple years, most people will like what the law has done. We need to move towards a state by state single payer insurance program.
    http://www.healthcareforall.org/

    Like

  22. Mikey McD Avatar

    Health care is not a right. BTW, I just got a huge credit from my health insurance company (again). I choose free markets/competition (big surprise) over government force, discrimination and anti-constitution BS.

    Like

  23. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Obamacare:
    You must buy this because you are alive.
    If you do not buy this because you are alive, you must rot in jail until you are not alive.
    Does that sum it up?

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  24. Mikey McD Avatar

    D. King nails it again!

    Like

  25. Douglas Keachie Avatar
    Douglas Keachie

    We obviously need a new source of energy:
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150393617978360&set=a.379473193359.158222.290539813359&type=1&theater
    You probably need a Facebook account to view this. And GG, remember what I said about not taking me too literally…
    The other images in the series are great too. Click to the right and left to see them.

    Like

  26. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Very funny Doug!

    Like

  27. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Another example of a deceptive logical fallacy: George said in his post “a leading local Leftwing intellectual strongly argues”, clearly referring to me.
    I reply, ” I am flattered that you would call me an intellectual”
    George concludes, ” We are fortunate to have Mr Steve Frisch step forward, identify himself, and accept the above bestowed ‘Left intellectual’ mantle.”
    What George does not acknowledge is that I did not accept the “left” portion of the statement, only the intellectual portion of the statement.
    Consequently George is misrepresenting both my position and my ideology, as USUAL!

    Like

  28. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George, I did go and look at the SBC filings an WOW! It looks like as of 2009 the SBC burned through about 6 million dollars and was going upside down real bad. There was no Schedule B listing the contributors so I now understand why StevieF was reluctant to supply a link. I would say the SBC is on the ropes. I also appears they get the bulk of their money from the taxpayers.
    Here is the link.
    http://oag.ca.gov/charities/charity-research-tool#Location:Summary

    Like

  29. George Rebane Avatar

    Todd – there are hundreds of non-profits registered here in the county that are basically funds forwarding shills to all kinds of, overwhelmingly liberal, activities in the state. I understand that these forwarding non-profits exist basically to hide the money trail to the end users. Does it appear that SBC is so engaged; I can’t imagine SBC spending that much money on its own projects.
    It would also be interesting to know who finally gets the money and for what purposes.

    Like

  30. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Does your scrutiny of non profits include conservative non profit tax-exempt organizations such as the Heritage Foundation?
    “Governed by an independent Board of Trustees, The Heritage Foundation is an independent, tax-exempt institution.”
    http://www.heritage.org/

    Like

  31. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    SBC ‘s filings since 2002 appear to be missing a lot of relevant information for the inquiring mind. Now I am no expert but even my limited knowledge of income and expense would make me scratch my head in wonder how all those millions were spent. It looks like a ot goes to the Exec and his/her benefits. But, I think a forensic accounting of SBC would be very helpful to those few members it now seems to have left.

    Like

  32. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Yup, ya gotta watch those “liberals”, but don’t bother about the racist conservatives calling for outright “war”!
    http://yubanet.com/usa/SPLC-Intelligence-Report-War-Rhetoric-Intensifies-on-the-Radical-Right.php#.TsM5X1awVic

    Like

  33. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Todd, your limited experience in business is showing!
    As I posted on another thread, (titled: “The International Cancer of Public Unions Posted by: Steve Frisch | 13 November 2011 at 03:19 PM) all of our accounting is independently reviewed by auditors who are legally required to report any problems to the IRS. We are the amongst most transparent corporations in existence.
    I am proud of the fact that we have been growing for the last three years. I’m also proud of having managed a $5 million program to help farmers and ranchers access conservation easements in the Sierra Valley, which explains why our net assets dropped from 2003-2009–it was because we were sitting on private money we used to pay ranchers for easements; decisions they made as part of their private property rights.
    You don;t know what the hell you are talking about.
    By the way George, I assume you read your own blog? So you read the post over on the other thread, that has very specific financial information. Am I right?
    The perils of radical transparency are idiots like Todd. Too bad his financial statements are not transparent. I suspect we would discover what an experienced business man he really is!

    Like

  34. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF – The remarkable contribution of $5M from private individuals to purchase conservation easements should explain away the decline of SBC assets. I have no desire to have RR be the venue for any investigations of how non-profits operate with private funds. Any interest I may have had involved only the use of public monies.

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  35. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George, the bulk of SVC’s money, I’d say 80-90 percent is taxpayers money. What is missing is the Schedule B of who gave the money to them and it looks to me as if most was spent on payroll. ` What the attack from Frish means to me is he is trying to throw off a real investigatory review of his money most of which is tax money. He stoops to his usal name-calling becasue he is hiding something. His statements , the 990’s, are the compilation of data he puts together and any account will have a disclaimer statement that they did not review the sources of the information. Therefore, we all now the veracity of the information is suspect. I think I will ask for a review of the 990’s by the AG.

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  36. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Todd, for someone who lives in a glass house, you talk and awful lot of $#!+!
    Really, how much money have you stuck the taxpayers with having to pay on YOUR bad debts!

    Like

  37. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Not a dime MikeT. You don’t know anyting but you sure try.

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