Rebane's Ruminations
September 2011
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George Rebane

[This is the submitted version of my column that was scheduled to appear in the print and online editions of the 10sep11 Union.  It was rescheduled and has been printed in the 17sep11 print and online editions (here) due to the Union‘s focus on 9/11 commentaries.  This piece clearly would not have fit.]

The election season is here, and the economy is in the tank.  America is at a gore point – we can take the left fork and double down on the great mistake of ’08, or we can believe that there is a future for us which rejects the global socialism in UN’s Agenda 21.  (Agenda 21? See Judi Caler’s excellent ‘The many tentacles of Agenda 21’ in the 3sep11 Union available online.)  But before next November our focus will be on jobs, and which way the electorate will swing and sway.

Readers familiar with my arguments on our workforce and employability know that the recovery, when it comes, will be unique in American history.  Comparing all kinds of data and charts on past recessions and depressions shows that we have already tipped into an unknown world.  Technology and globalism is obsolescing tens of millions of our workers.  And today only 81% of America’s potential workers between 20 and 64 are even in the workforce.  From 1948 to 1980, this was 98%.  Since then it has been steadily dropping in all worker categories.


We can argue what caused this decline – global competition, technology advances, productivity increases, worker “dumbth”, government friction, transfer payment subsidies, … – but the bottom line is that today the almost 40 million un/under-employed will increase to way over the 70 million that I recently predicted for 2020.  These folks will have to be sustained by massive wealth redistribution payments from a government that has no idea how an economy generates the needed wealth.

And now education turns out to not be the automatic cure it once was for getting a job.  We have graduated too many young people whose skill sets limit them to competing with computers, changing diapers for the aged, or becoming government counselors who listen to life stories of the desperate, deranged, or delusional.  The simple fact is that such jobs cannot command the much-touted ‘living wage’ that progressives demand for everyone.

As an aside, a definite growth industry for jobs is government regulation enforcement.  Today, led by the EPA, the number and size of rogue agencies is on the rise.   Job intensive businesses from world-famous guitar makers to local auto body shops are being raided by merciless teams of government thugs.  These are sent by unelected bureaucrats at all levels to gratuitously enforce regulations that would never be passed as standalone laws by any legislature in the land.

Bureaucrats levy crippling fines, mandate new operating procedures, and order changes in physical plants and equipments that do little or no good, and make less sense. Their devastating impact forces layoffs, delays hiring, and even closes companies.

So instead of doing the obvious things to promote enterprise, build businesses, and create jobs during this recession heading for depression, governments are adding burdens ranging from new rules to new fees and taxes.  And while governments claim a shortage of revenues to do things like educate kids or catch criminals, oddly enough, there is still plenty of money to fund hassling recently criminalized taxpayers. 

So we may ask, who enables and supports such blatant destruction of our economy and individual liberties.  The answer is simply our uninformed and ignorant voters, those whose voices are manipulated and strengthened as we abandon the republic our Founders and forefathers left us, and march toward the new American democracy.

Under the guise of correcting civil rights abuses, the left is now reducing voter qualifications from being able to fog a mirror on election day, to having once been able to do that.  Richard Rahn of Cato writes –

Many a democracy has been upended by excessive government spending — and, unfortunately, America, despite the latest budget agreement, is well on its way to fiscal and, perhaps, democratic collapse. The American Founding Fathers well understood that democracy could destroy liberty through both excessive spending and oppressive actions by democratic majorities. This is why the U.S. Constitution creates a federal republic and not a parliamentary democracy.

The Founding Fathers set about to create a government that first of all would ensure liberty and then protect person and property. To ensure against the momentary passions of a democratic majority, including spending others’ money, they deliberately designed a governmental system in which most things cannot be done in a hurry and there are many checks and balances on what can be accomplished. Even so, Benjamin Franklin and other Founders thought it was unlikely the American experiment would last very long. John Adams wrote, “Democracy never lasts very long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There was never a democracy that did not commit suicide.”

As if following some agenda, we realize Franklin’s fears.

George Rebane is an entrepreneur and a retired systems scientist in Nevada County who regularly expands these and other themes on KVMR and Rebane’s Ruminations (www.georgerebane.com).

[Addendum]  First off, let me say that I don’t have a pat answer for what America’s voter requirements should be, but I do propose that the form of today’s voting franchise is largely the reason for the country’s headlong rush toward autocracy via socialist democracy.

To undertake an exercise in fashioning a ‘better’ voting system I would like to proceed by first framing such an effort in a reasonable manner, and then see where that would take us.  And the starting point should be to get a common understanding of ‘better’, or to define a voting franchise utility (VFU) function.  I’ll offer that a VFU will highly rate –

•    Adherence to the Constitution as amended, specifically excluding strictures based on race, religion, gender, political persuasion, sexual preference, ethnicity, previous condition of servitude, etc.
•    Maximize the expected number of franchised voters, but err in the direction of minimizing unqualified voters,
•    Pareto-optimality (see below),
•    Require some demonstration of minimum cognitive function and relevant knowledge base.

The last bullet, of course, is the tricky one.  And in passing, I believe that the several states should each fashion their own voting franchises or VFs that conform to the minimum federal voting rights laws.

I also believe that no one wants to grant the vote to people who are not American citizens and demonstrably do not know what they are voting for, and propose that these considerations should be part of every VF definition across the land.  In other words, these conditions may be taken axiomatically to disqualify a person from being granted the franchise.

(As a footnote here, I feel that, in a democracy or republic, voting is the most sacrosanct civic act and duty of a franchised citizen, it is the ‘holy of holies’ of a socially responsible citizen, and the qualifications to exercise the right to vote via a secret ballot should be more stringent than the cognitive (not kinesthetic) requirements for such privileges as obtaining a driver’s license.)

We already have laws that somewhat arbitrarily prevent people under a certain age from voting, and laws that deny the vote to the clinically demented, comatose, or dead.

But now come questions like, ‘Should the person be franchised if s/he –

•    Does not comprehend written English?
•    Demonstrates no/negligible knowledge of American governance?
•    Demonstrates no/negligible knowledge of ballot candidates, propositions, issues?

My own general response to such questions is NO.  But defining appropriate tests to allow adjudication of qualified voters is the next task that faces us.  And this is where it becomes highly political, since the left’s agenda is arguably promoted by letting more than fewer people vote, and the right’s is promoted by more stringent voting qualifications.

Finally, we may also want to consider voting methods since our current one embodies definite benefits and liabilities, and many others exist.  The study of voting systems may be considered to be a special subset of what are known as fair division algorithms.  (Part of a system scientist’s toolkit, and one that I used extensively when I was in harness – actually, I still do.)  Dr Pierre Lemieux of the University of Quebec has written an excellent, short, and non-technical paper – ‘The Public Choice Revolution’  – wherein he describes the entire field of public choice, various voting schemas, and Pareto optimality.  To make progress in this discussion, I offer it as a minimal preparation.

[12sep2011 update]  Given the course of the comment thread on voting as it reflects the divergent concerns of the left and right, a Wizard of Id commentary comes to mind that pretty well sums things up.

WizofId_voting

Posted in , ,

114 responses to “Who can work, who may vote (Addended) (updated 12sep2011)”

  1. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    “How can an electorate be obtained that is conducive to sustaining our liberties.”
    Well here we go George.
    For example
    I am a firm believer of a national health care system similar to Western Europe and Canada. You believe that those are socialistic systems and they take from our liberties. You certainly believe that about Obama care. It is safe to assume then that whatever education system you prefer would teach that a national health care system is wrong because it is socialistic would take away our freedom. Where does that lead us then except to some system of indoctrination of voters to a political position? Once in place this could to apply to many other programs and policies. Sounds like Orwells Brave New World from a conservative perspective.
    Scott
    These changes in voting procedures to eliminate fraud that you prefer would have to be enacted on a state by state process right? You don’t see this being a Federal law do you?

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  2. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Todd
    Once again. I will not respond to you so please don’t solicit me again.

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  3. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE – Today our public schools, taught by marginal teachers union members, have for some decades been the most efficient institutions of progressive indoctrination imaginable – and you are worried that a bit of the Austrian school of economics might sneak in there someplace?
    But then, I don’t even care if we exclude revamping public schools for the purpose of improving the electorate (I do care about doing it for other purposes like becoming competitive in the job markets). Having voters just being able to read and know basic elements of American governance would be a tremendous leap forward for sustaining the Republic.

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  4. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    I’m concerned that you want to impose some kind of political litmus test before people are allowed to vote. Your concerns about American liberties are different from mine and that seems to be part of what you seek. I prefer to err on the side of the mirror breath test and keep agendas out of it.
    Even requiring a level of reading and knowing basic elements of American governance would require some form of testing. Any idea how that would happen and who would do it? Would it be like applying for a drivers license except you get a basic American governance test?

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  5. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, I understand your concern. Political litmus tests are an established institution in today’s schools. I propose no political litmus test for voters. But it is clear to me and millions of Americans that the left prefers the uneducated voter above all. And we also understand why educating the voter to literacy and simple basics is a fearful thing to contemplate.
    Voter education along with voting rights are primarily a matter for the states to sort out. My ignored comment about my parents and other immigrants seem to have solved that problem in days of yore. Testing was rampant for damn near everything. You had to have more than self-esteem to qualify.
    My 728pm still seems to sum up the futility of even discussing this effort to improve the electorate. Any change must be a bipartisan effort, and one party will have none of it. In the meantime we are heading pell-mell from a Republic into a popular democracy through a process led by leftwing politicians, and followed lemming-like by a growing cohort of voters who have no clue and no tools with which to get a clue.
    (In this environment Obama’s re-election is a lead-pipe cinch since half of his supporters believe that we can tax the rich to return to prosperity, and the other half believes that “the President has a stash” that even obviates taxing.)
    I hope that readers who still have yet to make up their minds on this issue will benefit from reading the disparate left/right arguments here. By not agreeing on the fundamentals of who gets to vote, we continue to lay the boundary markers of the Great Divide.

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  6. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    PaulE is simply wrong, but what’s new. He favors a uneducated electorate which is the best guarantee of electing his buddies. He has extreme views on most issues and that is fine but he is in a small teeny minority of people who think as he does. A better educated electorate by the government employees, oops, teachers and professors would go a long way to secure our democracy. PaulE and his ilk want a country of dumb serfs. We on the right have it correct and his position will be popular only in Denmark.

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  7. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Oh and BTW, a person can be stupid in America, no problem, but I have the right to object to their stupidity voting for stupidity.

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  8. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    “Political litmus tests are an established institution in today’s schools.”
    Can you elaborate on this? Are you referring to teachers, students, administration? Give me an idea of how the this test is applied so I can better understand the applications of your statement.

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  9. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, both in high school and at university level students in the ‘soft subjects’ are often taught the teachers ideological interpretation of history, public policy, literature, criminal law, etc. Woe be to the student who will contend with such teachers, especially on exams.

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  10. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Teachers and Professors, just like the media, is hugely liberal while liberals are only 20% of the country. That alone needs conservative affirmative action. The left is on the run.

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  11. George Rebane Avatar

    ToddJ, I wish you and all of us the joy of your assessment. However, that 20% is a very dedicated percentage with an even more powerful message. With the evidence presented in the last decades, a voter who still has trouble making up his mind is much more inclined to accept the easy to understand nostrums of the left than the right. And the undecideds account for 40% of the electorate; this is a steep hill to climb. To clarify –
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2009/10/obamanations-big-question.html

    Like

  12. Ben Emery Avatar

    Didn’t read through the thread but wanted to put the idea out there that it was the private sector/ Free Trade Agreements passed through government and the big banks that brought us this financial crisis.

    Like

  13. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    So its biased liberal teachers spewing dogma on unknowing students that cause them to be ignorant voters that needs to be changed by installing more conservative teachers or muting their message. How do you propose that could be accomplished?

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  14. Ben Emery Avatar

    Todd,
    Can you show any credible source for your statement “Teachers and Professors, just like the media, is hugely liberal while liberals are only 20% of the country. That alone needs conservative affirmative action. The left is on the run.”
    Pointless I know but read who owns the media in the US.
    http://www.dailypaul.com/35701/why-media-ownership-matters
    I talked to many people about this issue all the time and use this example-
    excerpt from Why Media Ownership Matters
    “In the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, there was even less diversity of opinion on the airwaves. During the critical two weeks before and after Colin Powell’s speech to the United Nations where he made his case for war, FAIR found that just three out of 393 sources — fewer than 1 percent — were affiliated with anti-war activism.
    Three out of almost 400 interviews. And that was on the “respectable” evening news shows of CBS, NBC, ABC and PBS.”

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  15. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE – not sure what you intend by citing the ‘anti-war active’ stations. Powell’s speech reflected the international common wisdom re WMD and other reasons for war. No one has shown that there was an alternative intelligence base which was conspiratorially hidden.
    The media reported what their journalism revealed as the truth of the time, and these outlets you cite are not exactly paragons of rightwing ideology.
    BTW, are you serious about doubting that the OVERWHELMING fraction of humanities departments in American universities are staffed by progressives?

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  16. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    There have been many studies and polls confirming hthe liberal hegemony of the media and the education profession and you know that is true. I have talked to local teachers who experienced the ostracism right here in river city when it became known they were republican. Just a few. Also, 93% of the Washington press corp voted democrat in 2008. That was reported just last week. You can Google but maybe you never thought to Google conservative/teacher/professor because it really is hard to find.
    Regarding fixing the imbalance in education professional political leanings. I say the political bent of someone is as important as a immutable quality. Why should the children of our country be subjected only to liberal bias intermingled in their studies? Affirmative action in the hiring of conservatives seems to be as fair as the affirmative action hires for other qualities.

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  17. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Here you go PaulE and BenE. A instant find on Google typing in “liberal professor polls”. Wow, so tough.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html

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  18. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Oh, 72% liberal, 15% conservative.

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  19. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE re 409pm – You misunderstand. Liberal teachers “spewing” whatever they believe to be truth is not the point. It’s that they don’t (can’t?) teach the kids to read, write, cipher, and think. They turn out kids who can spout some slogans, and connect very few dots in the world around them. If they do go to college or get a job, it is that school or employer that now must teach (remediate) them the minimum skills so that they can make progress.
    Instead of coming out of school hitting the ground running, they come out of school and land on their ass.

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  20. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I think PaulE’s premise has been destroyed by you. He has bailed.

    Like

  21. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    I love how certain Tea Party members tout the need to return to the wisdom of the American people and then out of the other side of their mouths contend that the people are stupid. And who is the elitist?

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  22. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    The military example is to show that the big interlocking/ multi-interest corporations that own the media will promote an idea that benefits their bottom line over the public good. We don’t have a mainstream media or as you obediently follow the messaging of Ms. Palin lamestream media, we have a corporate-media that is gobbling up all competitors leaving us with a very slanted pro-consumerism bottom line agenda media.
    Outside of your opinion of milking the government for money and benefits what do you feel the core purpose for teachers/ professors from K-Graduate School? Do you teaching about the brutal, murderous, and immoral anti-union practices of the past liberal. Or that unregulated banks/ housing bubble led us to the great crash of 29′ and then into the great depression is liberal? Or helping others over making profits is bad business model is liberal? I will post what liberal President Kennedy had to say about being labeled liberal.
    “What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label “Liberal?”
    If by “Liberal” they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer’s dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of “Liberal.” But if by a “Liberal” they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people — their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties — someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a “Liberal,” then I’m proud to say I’m a “Liberal.”
    But first, I would like to say what I understand the word “Liberal” to mean and explain in the process why I consider myself to be a “Liberal,” and what it means in the presidential election of 1960.”
    September 14, 1960

    Like

  23. Kathy Jones Avatar
    Kathy Jones

    Steve,
    You need to be a little clearer about your above jab at the Tea Party.
    Where did your “stupid” declaration originate?

    Like

  24. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    “……a Wizard of Id commentary comes to mind that pretty well sums things up.”
    It’s now at the top of the page endorsed by Mr. Rebane.

    Like

  25. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    SteveE At 11:58 – you are correct. I do apologise as I have no direct knowledge as to why he is unable to perform a simple search on line. I simply will make a note of his lack of abilities and move on. It was late and I was tired and grouchy at the tone of his post.

    Like

  26. George Rebane Avatar

    Re ‘elitist’ as a member of the ‘elite’. Most classical non-pejorative definitions define such a member as a person ascribed to belong to a class or category that is exclusive because its members have demonstrated superior performance, achievement, and/or derivation in some recognized manner.
    The pejorative versions of ‘elitist’ and ‘elite’ describe people who are self-aggrandizing by claiming exclusivity without having demonstrated any superior performance, achievement, and/or derivation in some recognized manner.

    Like

  27. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Scott
    Generally it’s good form to make some attempt at documentation and it’s certainly not appropriate to call someone names who asks for it. I will always ask you for documentation especially when your attempting to prove a point.

    Like

  28. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    We are on your turf, what is your definition of elitist? Balking by giving other definitions is using weasel words/ phrasing.

    Like

  29. Ben Emery Avatar

    Todd looked at your link, the topics covered I tend to think as wedge issues not primary issues.
    The topics I would consider important would be
    Free Trade- Giving the statistics of 50,000 factories shutting down in the last decade while losing 7 million manufacturing private sector jobs in the same time period.
    Supply Side Economics- Giving the average private sector wage since 1980 has remained stagnant and in some segments has gone down while the top 1% has seen a 23% increase in their income in the same time period
    Social Security- Giving that the program is funded through the payroll not government general fund and has not contributed one penny to the national deficit/ debt.
    Medicare – Giving the knowledge it was republican pushed Medicare Part D that has bankrupted the program to the tune of trillions due to the fact Medicare cannot negotiate for whole sale prices but have to pay retail despite being the largest consumer in the world of pharmaceuticals. This program was not paid for by the republican majority and Bush administration.
    Invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq- Giving the facts that neither nation had direct links to the attacks of 9/11 and they were not paid for by the republican led congress and Bush administration.
    Tax Breaks for the Wealthy and Big Corporations- Giving the numbers of how much of the income gains have been accumulated by the top 1% and how many tax loop holes lobbied by the big corps ($100 billion annually).
    If you ask the American people these issues with the numbers you would find that we live in a very progressive country. Their have been many progressives that were from the republican party Lincoln, Roosevelt, and Eisenhower are some that come to mind.

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  30. George Rebane Avatar

    No weasel words intended BenE (reading these pages, you should know better than that, otherwise you’d be at some other blog discussing ‘Jantz selected Big12 player of week’). I define and use ‘elitist’ in the sense of the first paragraph of 721pm.

    Like

  31. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    One thing about BenE and his ilk, when they are trapped by words or someone brings forth facts to show them wrong, they divert and diminish. I supplied the proof from a “progressive” newspaper and BenE diverts. PaulE does the same thing. That is why I don’t usually supply more info or research for them. They are never able to agree.Pretty elitist in my view.

    Like

  32. Ben Emery Avatar

    Todd,
    Lets say you’re analysis is correct that professors at top colleges are liberal, what does that tell us. It tells us the more a person researches, learns, and understands about other cultures, eras, politics, and policies they become more liberal. Maybe we should take away something from this or is it more of a conspiracy thing for you?

    Like

  33. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    “a member as a person ascribed to belong to a class or category that is exclusive because its members have demonstrated superior performance, achievement, and/or derivation in some recognized manner.”
    Would you say the elite schools that have their liberal professors have earned their non-pejorative definition? Yet RR seem to have a real problem with accepting this definition. What gives? Could it be possibly that being liberal is just a way of saying being open to other ideas and not rigidly constricted to a certain way of doing things?
    generic online definitions
    Liberal- Open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.
    Conservative- Holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in politics or religion.

    Like

  34. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE – there is no record of RR having any problem with accepting the non-pejorative definition of elitist. And yes, in general I cannot deny liberal professors who have distinguished themselves the non-pejorative label. Although I am surprised at your ignorance of the overwhelming political tilt of faculties at American universities.
    Re liberal and conservative definitions – we’ve sung that song several times on these pages. Today’s conservatives hold the values and world views of the classical liberals of early 19th century – e.g. Bastiat. ‘Liberal’ was co-opted by the progressive left at the turn of the 20th century, and now we have these mostly baseless discussions. There is very little liberal in the modern ‘liberal’, most certainly not when it comes to liberty and freedom for the individual – it’s the state über alles!

    Like

  35. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    That’s interesting because it seems that the term conservative no longer resembles the right, especially when it comes to liberty and freedom. The shredding of the US Constitution and the stripping of our liberties during the Bush administration was supported and advocated by the so called conservatives. My guess on these pages as well.
    By our standards the paradigm of what we have grown to accept with these political definitions no longer exists, maybe Paul Emery is a step ahead of RR by creating a new definition of a green libertarian, personal liberty with government/ corporate responsibility/ accountability.

    Like

  36. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George, you are unable to penetrate a rock.

    Like

  37. Kathy Jones Avatar
    Kathy Jones

    Ben,
    I think you may have missed a very important point in your attempt to label liberal and conservative, that being a fact that “history repeats itself”, some people understand this proven concept and realize the “wheel works” and can’t be improved by changing its shape.

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  38. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE is definitely “a step ahead of RR by creating a new definition of green libertarian …”. Because of its strong advocacy of “caring economics”, it is also a step ahead in a direction that RR definitely will not follow.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2011/05/true-value-of-work-and-caring-economics.html

    Like

  39. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Green libertarian is not possible. Green only works by government subsidy or the complete lack of government intervention. Libertarians want little government intervention so there is no way the GL’s definition makes any sense whatsoever. But, when greens are smoking the green, anything is possible inside the noggin.

    Like

  40. Ben Emery Avatar

    Kathy,
    That is a good saying. I don’t agree with your applying it in this situation but like it.

    Like

  41. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    I will post a short list of things that greens and libertarians agree on
    Iraq Invasion/ Occupation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5_ThKD2g4U
    War on Terror and Nation Building
    Seeing acts of terror as criminal and going after those specific individuals who perpetrated the acts.
    Audit the Federal Reserve
    US Constitution Article I, Section 8, Clause 5, of the United States Constitution provides that Congress shall have the power to coin money and regulate the value thereof and of any foreign coins.
    Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 AKA Bank Bailout
    This only made the problem worse and transparency was made even more opaque
    I would of Voted “NO”
    World Trade Organization or WTO
    Our agreements with WTO, GATT, and NAFTA strips US sovereignty over its trade and economic policies. This is why our jobs are leaving the country.
    FISA Act
    Violates our 4th amendment rights
    Patriot Act
    Strips our liberties and US Constitutional Rights
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdT0RNYoFfM
    Guantanano Detainee’s, Habeas Corpus, and Secret Prisons
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjpmdJGFv5U
    Decriminalization of Marijuana
    This would help empty out our prisons and save tax dollar money
    Real ID Card
    Assumes we are guilty and we need to prove our innocence.

    Like

  42. Ben Emery Avatar

    13 September 2011 at 01:10 PM Is a list of things that I agree with Ron Paul and the local libertarian party on.
    Another issue would be same sex marriage and no second class citizens.

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  43. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Being a Green Libertarian is quite logical and understandable. First you can not have true liberty without a healthy earth. Secondly it is the responsibility of every individual and business to support a healthy earth through voluntary lifestyle and business practices. For example you don’t need a law to make theft illegal. Most people are honest and do not steal. The same with living within a healthy balance with the earth. People should respect and honor that which sustains us. When that does not happen then it is necessary for the government, that represents the common good, to intervene through legislation and enforcement. Pretty simple

    Like

  44. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Ah, manna fest destiny, it turns everything green. Not. Green ideology is an arrogant manifestation of pagan worshipers. The rocks they lay on at the Yuba River are sacred rocks. I have been reading green tripe for years and all it does is sap the taxpayers of non profit dollars. Greens are the stealth recipients of democrat largesse. The 4th Amendment is missing as are the rest. Property rights and gun rights are not supported by Greens are they? It is my intent to receive NO response from any greenie.

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  45. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    You’ve got it Todd

    Like

  46. Ben Emery Avatar

    Todd,
    I support the second amendment and am opposed to eminent domain.
    True Greens and true Libertarians do not carry water for either of the major two parties due to the fact that the big two are the biggest enemies of third parties entering into the political arena. The big two are owned by the same entities that work against any advancement of democracy (people power). Ask yourself why will virtually almost all reps tell you privately they hate all the fundraising bs but will not speak a peep about it publicly? Much of our reps spend their time fundraising for their next election especially the US House. Who writes the legislation? The lobbyists and big industry do that’s who.
    A perfect example of this is the Medicare Part D law that is bankrupting the program. I will argue the republican party did this on purpose, ruin the program at the same time hand over trillions of dollars to their pharmaceutical masters. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/29/60minutes/main2625305.shtml
    The question then becomes where were the Democrats and their filibuster?
    Unfortunately for the American people the democratic party has become corrupted by these special interests groups enough to where the people no longer have a chance over big industry. Hence the condition of our nation and its dim outlook at this point in time.
    A perfect quote that even rumination regulars can agree with when we talk about the Bush bailouts of the banks and auto industry.
    “Capitalism will never fail because socialism will always be there to bail it out”
    Ralph Nader
    The banks should of been left to fail on their own as the auto industry. Socialize the losses and privatize the profits is the paradigm we are operating at present time.

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  47. Ben Emery Avatar

    It should read the Bush bailouts of the banks and Obama with the auto industry.

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  48. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    The greens have destroyed more jobs in the fortests of our country than the pine beetle. Greens are not for property rights they prove it all the time. It is the most important thing to them, that is, the return of the land to its state before people started to live on it and own it. I have not seen to many greens joining the military and the only ones carrying a weapon are bureaucrat greens like forest rangers and fish and game police.

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  49. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    As one chose to home during the Viet Nam war and let others spill their blood for what you believe you have no grounds to speak critically of those who don’t join the military.

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  50. Ben Emery Avatar

    Todd,
    Your nonsense is amazing and a waste of peoples time. Maybe its time for you to start a new hobby that involves little discourse with others and more time in the natural world. Being outside has many positive affects on our psyches. I would challenge your point but will refrain since there is no point in talking with somebody who seems mentally unstable and unable to have an adult conversation.

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