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August 2011
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                        Ignorance is the handmaiden of tyranny.  R. Clay Reynolds

George Rebane

As these pages long attest, for me the answer to the title question is a resounding YES.  And our western governments aid and abet that as being the reasonable response.  The progressive tsunami of proscribing anyone who evinces fear of Islam ranges from Mayor Bloomberg banning any and all inclusion of religion in the upcoming commemoration of 9/11 at Ground Zero, to Canadian police giving Muslims a pass on physically assaulting non-Muslims in public.  (Read this piece in the 2aug11 Toronto Sun by David Menzies)

Hijab A more compelling and terrible look into the mind of Islam is the tragic story of a young Palestinian woman who lived in Gaza.  She was severely burned in a propane cooking accident about a year ago.  Requiring more treatment than available in Gaza, she and her care givers pleaded with Israeli officials at the border checkpoint to be allowed to seek help at a nearby Israeli hospital.  She was given a compassionate pass, proceeded to the hospital where she received treatment for her burns, and after recuperating she was released to return home.

A year later, she arrives with three small children at the same checkpoint in hijab (nearby picture), looking obviously pregnant, and requesting to revisit the hospital to be checked for how her healing has progressed.  The Israeli border guards sensed that something didn’t add up, and took her into custody.  She was placed into a now standard interrogation/isolation compound nearby and asked to disrobe.  Thereupon and in great distress, she confessed that she was a suicide bomber with a mission to go into the same crowded ward where she received her treatment, and then, surrounded by medical personnel and patients, she would detonate herself.

The Israeli video here shows the last moments of her interrogation and her detonating the twenty pounds of high explosive she had strapped to her belly.  It is a devastating record of a dedicated and determined servant of Allah willing to kill without mercy the very people who showed her kindness and compassion, and all for the sole purpose that they were the most proximal infidels that in her zeal she could reach.  That consideration overarched everything else in her life.


As recorded here many times, I have the most genuine respect for Islam’s stated and demonstrated objective to become the one-world theocracy commissioned in the Quran.  Their willingness to die and wantonly kill by the thousands in an ongoing daily round is beyond my comprehension.  And since they purpose themselves to destroy everything that I hold dear, and have demonstrated palpable success in that enterprise, I fear them.

My fear is amplified by those simple souls among whom I live, those who do not share any of my Islamophobic concerns, and instead, view me and those like me as unreasonable and unreasoning ‘racists’.  These same people issue a constant stream of pabulum about how such terrorists make up an insignificant fraction of Islam, a culture which seeks nothing but to live in peace with its non-Islamic neighbors.  Anyone who does not believe this message of sweetness and light is asked to go to the nearest Islamic center (an ever more easier task today than yesterday, and even easier tomorrow), and just sit down for a conversation with our Muslim neighbors.

I don’t know how to approach such a visit to the nearest Islamic center.  If I believe them to be devout in their religion, I know that they are taught the practice of taqqiya (religious dissimulation).  I have witnessed their worldwide silence and their overseas mass celebrations in response to the atrocities performed by their brothers and sisters.  What are we to believe when exposed to a regular stream of blatantly acceptable wholesale murders by Muslims who moments ago were our accepted countrymen in Europe and America?

Our own government dares not make the obvious connection.  The lame excuses given for the avalanche of evidence range all the way from attempting to argue symmetry with examples like McVey and Breivik, to pointing out that the majority of Muslims among us will reject the call when it comes, and throw in with western values when choose they must between these civilizations.

But then we recall that one of the most cultured of peoples, those who gave us Goethe, Schiller, Beethoven, Einstein, … , were silent and compliant when a minority band of brown shirts took over the Reichstag, and started their murderous genocides leading to the greatest of all wars.  And these same people remained silent and compliant right into the eve of the Götterdämmerung in 1945; I saw it with my own eyes, I was there.

And we in the west are to believe that Muslims lack such cultural loyalty and adhesion, qualities that they daily demonstrate across the world?  Dear reader, I don’t claim to have a solution, but only the considered viewpoint that if we do continue hiding the truth from ourselves, as also witnessed by the examples I give above, we will not save western civilization as we know it.  As a child, student, and defender of that civilization, I worry for my children, grandchildren, and, already, great-grandchildren.

[update]  Two Black Americans were elected to congress this cycle, and both are Republican. Col. West is from southern Florida. He won in a walk.  Below you can see why.  H/T to RR reader.

[1sep2011]  These kinds of interviews and news items flood the Islam streets daily.  They are invisible to our multikulti progressives who bend over backwards in the attempt to show that orther cultures – especially Christianity – are just as rapacious.  Here is a typical one from the Middle East Media Research Institute that never makes our lamestream outlets.  H/T to RR reader.

Posted in , , , ,

164 responses to “Islamophobia – a rational response? (updated 1sep2011)”

  1. Ben Emery Avatar

    Here are a few of the victims of ethnic cleansing/ genocide that took place on our continent. There are many many more.
    ALICHE, KALOOSAS, ALUGHQUAGA, MANGOAGS, CHIKAHOMINI, MANNAHOAKS

    Like

  2. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    BenE, you need to start living in the present.
    PaulE, I think the wars in the Balkans were created long ago when the Turks moved in. You know, five hundred years ago. The Turks controlled the area under Islam until the last century. I think that is correct. So, who did what to whom in there Paul?
    Hereis a quote from your favorite place Wiki, on the Turks.
    “The Ottoman conquest of Bosnia marked a new era in the country’s history and introduced tremendous changes in the political and cultural landscape of the region. Although the kingdom had been crushed and its high nobility executed, the Ottomans nonetheless allowed for the preservation of Bosnia’s identity by incorporating it as an integral province of the Ottoman Empire with its historical name and territorial integrity – a unique case among subjugated states in the Balkans.”
    Got milk?

    Like

  3. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    BTW, I find the use of the word “subjugated” pretty interesting. How about you PaulE?

    Like

  4. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    BenE, when you stop feeling guilty get back to us. I don’t have any about our Manifest Destiny (hard for me to feel five to ten generations removed guilt). The world has seen many peoples come and go. Millions more died in Europe of the Black Death than they could count. Genghis Khan murdered millions of Caucasians on his trek west as did his sons. On and on. So crawl back under the blankie and suck your thumb some more. You have no moral high ground. You could achieve it though by going to the Sudan and helping the people left over after the Muslims murdered a million Christians and animists in Darfur. Try it then come back and tell us the story.

    Like

  5. Ben Emery Avatar

    Todd,
    Interesting, it is you that continues to return to years 630 – 750.

    Like

  6. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Ben,
    If you want to feel guilty about something…Try this!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0ZWdX6Z5T4

    Like

  7. Larry Wirth Avatar
    Larry Wirth

    I take it that you all will now agree that banning Muslim immigration is certainly “Constitutional” and the only question is whether we should do so. I say yes.
    Like the rest of you, I wouldn’t deport Muslims for religious reasons, any more than Hindus, Sikhs or Bhuddists. I would deport them for sedition, for which ample precedent in American history exists.
    Ben E, for the record, there are today more Amerinds than at any time in history. You see, their life expectancy, including infant survival rates, has increased greatly under the Great White Father. Sorry if that’s an inconvient truth. L

    Like

  8. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Looks like the best BenE can come up with is pretty lame. He can’t even answer my questions which disprove him. Beat him like a drum.
    DDT would save millions BenE. Why not champion that?

    Like

  9. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    As to the “Killing Fields of Bosnia” Ben; I was there with the U2…must have just missed ya!
    http://www.markdanner.com/articles/print/52

    Like

  10. Ben Emery Avatar

    Guys,
    You claim that Christianity only comes with love and peace but I showed a different reality. Who said anything about guilt? If you want it closer to home try the missions of California salvation/ slavery/ death. I already do volunteer work for an organization in a third world country, thanks for the suggestion.
    Since you guys believe that we are in the middle of a holy war and I am assuming you believe the US is the Christian representatives in this war, can you explain to me the invasion, occupation, death, destruction, relocation, torture, depleted uranium, white phosphate, and chemical weapons used in Iraq as bringing peace and love.
    The US military was sent into an unjust illegal invasion/ occupation and were only following their orders. It is the higher ups that should be indicted and put on trial for their illegal actions.

    Like

  11. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Yes Ben, let’s get the U.N.!

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  12. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Yes BenE, when a country is at war the goal is to kill people and break things. We are all shaking our heads at your responses. It is amazing.We understand you really have no use for this country so tell us BenE, which country best fits your ideal of a place for your philosophy and ideology?

    Like

  13. Ben Emery Avatar

    I didn’t realize our congress debated and gave a declaration of war, when did this happen? Do you hold President Obama accountable for the lack of a war declaration from congress with Libya? I do. I have been outspoken and in the streets with this disregard of the US Constitution. But I don’t believe either major party represents the people or upholds the constitution. Partisanship is an ugly destructive thing, you should try living in reality for awhile and see how things really work.
    Who said anything about the UN? Since you mentioned it here is what the UN secretary general had to say in 2004 about the invasion of Iraq. “I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter from our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal.”

    Like

  14. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Don’t you remember Hillary’s vote?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkS9y5t0tR0
    Bush went to congress, Obama didn’t!

    Like

  15. Ben Emery Avatar

    Dking
    Bush never got a declaration of war. There is nothing in the US Constitution giving Congress the power to pass on the power to authorize the executive branch to use force. I repeat “Partisanship is an ugly destructive thing, you should try living in reality for awhile and see how things really work.”
    Bush lied us into an illegal invasion of two countries. Bush illegally retained innocent people without trial denying them their habeas corpus rights. Bush illegally tortured. Bush illegally used banned weapons. Bush illegally ordered extraordinary rendition to secret global prison, much like the Russian gulags. Bush illegally spied on American citizens. The list can go on and on but I guess the US Constitution doesn’t matter to rumination regulars as long as it is a republican in the white house.
    You are going to have a hard time getting me to defend Hilary Clinton or President Obama. My list can go on with the current administration as well but since we agree I will save the time and space.

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  16. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    BenE you can’t rewrite gistory. Bush went to Congress and got a vote on a resolution to use force. All your favorite people voted for it. Except maybe Barbara Lee, the commie from Berkeley. So, please, stop trying to make others think the country did not do it as it was supposed to fo under the Constitution.

    Like

  17. Ben Emery Avatar

    Todd,
    I can’t rewrite history that is true but you aren’t smart enough to understand it. H.J.Res. 114 required a second resolution, which did not happen.
    All my favorite people voted for it, tell me who are my favorite people? The representatives I support in DC didn’t vote for this illegal invasion/ occupation as well as Patriot/ FISA Acts.
    Article 1 – The Legislative Branch
    Section 8 – Powers of Congress
    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
    To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
    To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
    To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
    To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
    To provide and maintain a Navy;
    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

    Like

  18. Ben Emery Avatar

    Todd,
    When I post a link it works like this, you click on it and then proceed to read the information.
    Those who voted against H.J.Res. 114
    US House 133 Nays
    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2002-455&sort=vote
    US Senate 23 Nays
    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=s2002-237&sort=vote

    Like

  19. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “…provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States…”
    Promote the general welfare NOT Provide it!

    Like

  20. Ben Emery Avatar

    Talk about rewriting history
    “”…provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States…”
    Promote the general welfare NOT Provide it!”
    No it is PROVIDE not promote.

    Like

  21. George Rebane Avatar

    Gentlemen – the Constitution’s Preamble, as such, is considered to outline the overarching purpose and objectives of that formative document.
    “We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
    There is no possibility to “secure the blessings of liberty …” in the case where government is charged with providing the general welfare. No government has so succeeded, and empires have fallen in their attempts to do so.
    That ‘promote’ was left out from modifying ‘welfare’ in Art 1, Sec 8 has been taken by 20th century American socialists as carte blanche for transforming the country, first into a democracy (from a republic), and then into an enveloping government by an elitist autocracy. Today the perversion continues and grows with each cohort of functional illiterates annually pumped out of government schools.

    Like

  22. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    No country has succeeded? I disagree. For the last 60 years Denmark, Sweden, Norway the Netherlands have done a pretty good job. I’ll await your predictable response that they will soon fall under the bayonets of tyranny when their money runs out.

    Like

  23. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George, the left is not smart enough to understand what you just wrote, especially the failed candidate for Congress. The ignorance was apparent to the people of the district which seems to have escaped his notice.

    Like

  24. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    OMG!

    Like

  25. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    Actually the terms Democracy and Republic started being used interchangeably in the 1830’s. It was in the last 20 years or so have we seen the big push towards the republic meme.
    Let me ask you, do believe our government should be run in the interests of the majority of the people through democratic elections? Or do believe that we should have people appointed to be the reps of government who decide the policies of the nation?

    Like

  26. Russ Steele Avatar

    Oh my
    A new study out by the Pew Research Center has some interesting statistics out on American Muslim feelings towards suicide bombings. While all the news agencies appear to be reporting on the “wonderful” news that the amount of American Muslims that approve of suicide bombings on civilians has decreased since 2007, no one seems to be reporting that we have American citizens who believe it is ok to do!
    I’m sorry, but 9% of Muslims in the U.S. are ok with blowing up civilians! Think about that. According to the CIA World Factbook, in 2010 there were 1.8 million Muslims in the United States. I’m going with this lower figure because no one really knows and I’d rather err on the side of caution. If the 9% holds steady through all 1.8 million American Muslims, then that puts us with at least 162,000 people in the United States that believe it is ok to suicide bomb civilians!
    Where are the Muslim leaders speaking out against suicide bombings if it is really against Islam’s teachings? Muslim leaders should be denouncing that 9%. Yes, it is nice to see that fewer people want to murder civilians in the U.S., but even the survey may not be completely accurate, because the sample may not be completely honest. More on that here.
    American Muslims Still Approve of Suicide Bombings | Godfather Politics
    My emphais added. When you see some of this 162,000 walking around the Mall in black robes and tummy bump, do you hang around, or run the other way? Just wondrering?

    Like

  27. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE (104pm) – actually, the interchangeable use of republic and democracy has never occurred among the well-read who have engaged in serious dialogue on these distinct forms of governance. And moreover, as witnessed by the Founders’ writings and Franklin’s famous exit statement in Philadelphia, the Constitutional United States of America was explicitly intended to be a republic and NOT a democracy.
    If that is not taught in today’s schools, then it is another example of crappola curriculum being dished out to the kids.
    I believe that the government should be run in the interest of the people in the exact form that the Founders intended in their seminal writings and the Constitution as lawfully amended.

    Like

  28. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    But, George, the left wants to “change” America and do it in their image. We who favor a enumerated limited government just are too dumb to understand the liberal “enlightenment”. Of course I am being a smartass but I just can’t understand how a Congressional candidate is so dense and expects everyone to apparently be in his camp or be called stupid. When someone gets 2-3% of the vote, (mickey mouse usually gets that much as a write in), and then comes here with the ridiculous tripe we are reading from him, you have to thank God the people are with us and not him and his ilk. We have a republic, if you can keep it.

    Like

  29. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    You can do better than this. The BOD of the linked Middle East Media Research Institute is a virtual campus for drunken playboy President George Bush’s Neo Con advisors that got us into the multi trillion dollar Iraq war. Why should anyone on either side listen to what they have to say
    Note I am using descriptions of our former President to match the style of Todd Juvinalls description of Obama. It seems to be fair game to tag a public official with a moniker based on their pre elected years.
    “Of course they never did the same to the self proclaimed cocaine user/dealer in the White House.”

    Like

  30. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Thanks PaulE.

    Like

  31. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    I’m glad that makes you feel good.

    Like

  32. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    It sounds romantic but there was much debate going on during the framing and founding of our nation. Your interpretations are only a fraction of the argument. Just because you discount opposing views to your own doesn’t mean they don’t exist. So you should take your own advice and read up on the topic. Obviously you have missed out on many of the correspondence and letters of Rush, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Washington, Franklin, Pierce, Hamilton, and so on.
    Happy reading

    Like

  33. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE – I believe you are confusing two independent notions – the debate which preceded adoption of the Constitution as founding a republic, and what the Founders and the people subsequently understood that had been put in place. For the latter, there was a broad understanding that reached way beyond the Founders of what dangers lay in a democracy. And at the turn of the 19th century these were underlined by the failures of the French Revolution which gave rise to the welcoming of short man on white horse who cast a very long shadow.
    That you don’t understand that distinction, as a potential future public official, is strong confirmation indeed of the group of intellectually suspect colleagues (aka clowns) that you will join should you be successful.

    Like

  34. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Let’s look at this realistically. The only way the Constitutionality of a law or policy is successfully challenged is through the courts. So until successfully challenged, laws and policies are Constitutional no matter what anyone thinks. the rest is personal or institutional opinion.

    Like

  35. George Rebane Avatar

    Au contraire PaulE – the constitutionality of law or policy when challenged is in abeyance until resolved by Congress of the courts. The moral equivalence of this is that you are innocent until due process through the courts judges you to be guilty. A less stringently brought indictment does not imply an automatic sentence.

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  36. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    This statement pretty much sums things up from my perspective
    “The most important misjudgment regarding Iraq that must be dealt with is the charge that Muslim terrorists attack us out of envy for our freedoms, our prosperity, and our way of life. There is no evidence this is the case. On the contrary, those who have extensively researched this issue conclude that the #1 reason suicide terrorists attack anywhere in the world is because their land is occupied by a foreign military power. Pretending otherwise and constantly expanding our military presence in more Arab and Muslim countries as we have since 1990 has only increased the danger of more attacks on our soil, as well as in those countries that have allied themselves with us. If we deny this truth we do so at our own peril.”
    Ron Paul
    “Why We Fight”
    2005

    Like

  37. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Ron Paul’s view on foreign policy is ridiculous. I like his views on money but when he said we were to blame for the Muslim’s attacking us on 9/11 that was it for me. Rudy G. put him in his place and the people have rejected Paul’s positions. He gets single digits in the polls so perhaps PaulE’s quotes from Paul, the Ron, are just too out there.

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  38. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    I was on a backpacking trip and just got back last night. My response to 02 September 2011 at 01:18 PM didn’t post last night. I’ll try again.
    So you want Senators to be appointed and only property owners have the right to vote? Do you want to make it so only white males can own property again as well?
    I know of the dialogue that you mention, it is a group of wannabe aristocrats speaking about their own superiority over the masses. The more I gather from your topics and writings you are one of the wannabes.
    Federalist #10 was about pure democracy vs republic. The United States of America has never been a pure democracy. The US Constitution gave Americans the power to shape and construct their government thus shaping the society from which we live. The are called amendments to the Constitution. Through movements we have created a democratic republic/ representative democracy. Those movements people gave their blood, sweat, tears, and lives to fight back against the tyranny of the minority over the majority. It is in America’s DNA to do so.
    There is a saying put towards activists “Love It or Leave It”, so George which one will you choose? Or will you become the very thing you have despised over the years, an activist?
    Have a good LABOR DAY
    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/09/03

    Like

  39. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE, that’s quite a laundry list of charges. I hope that I may have the same alternatives that you have available. I have demonstrated my love for America in more ways than you will ever understand. Your focus on me as being the sole source and repository for the ideas I write about in these pages is charming, but not quite accurate.
    Your binary offer to more than half of America is too constraining. We both love America, and yet we both have wildly divergent prescriptions for its future. And these are based on even more divergent worldviews. And here we are still free to convince others as to the truth of our separate beliefs. But let there be no mistake, each of us believe that if the other gets the wheel, he will drive the country into the ditch.

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  40. George Rebane Avatar

    To further illustrate the broad basis for Muslim hatred of the west, the 3sep11 Economist reports,”In all Muslim countries polled recently by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, majorities still refuse to believe that the perpetrators of September 11th were Arabs. Pew finds that the Muslim world and the West still see the other as fanatical and violent. Muslims are liable to add that Westerners are also immoral and greedy – and largely to blame for keeping Muslims poor.” (emphasis mine)
    More comparisons of the cultures here in Atlas Shrugs
    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/09/islams-war-on-western-culture-bbc-cancels-israel-philharmonic-performance-in-london-because-of-musli.html
    Can you imagine Christians launching a reciprocal event somewhere in Islam? No report of such things in the lamestream. Denial of Islamophobia is complete.

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  41. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t recall you responding as to whether you believe 3 Trillion spent on our military effort in Iraq was money well spent,

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  42. Ben Emery Avatar

    Well George,
    I am glad that you see that we all love our country. My observations have been the topics and your writings. You have said before that you believe in a Ayn Rand type social structure and I believe that is a recipe for Feudalism. I don’t think an original idea has been presented on RR not because the lack of intelligence but rather we have all had our ideals shaped by those who came before us.
    Free speech is one of the pillars of the continuous experiment we call America. As I exercise my free speech I embrace those same rights of others.

    Like

  43. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    So do you want to go back to only property owners can vote and only white males can own property? It is an easy straight forward question.
    “I believe that the government should be run in the interest of the people in the exact form that the Founders intended in their seminal writings and the Constitution as lawfully amended.”
    I will go back to my original point with you about their “seminal writings”, there were many views being debated and you along with rumination regulars refuse to recognize other voices of the day that opposed the philosophy of the federalists, Hamilton/ Adams, and Sir Edmund Burke. What is you interpretation of the form the founders intended? One interesting point to remember, almost all loyalist were conservatives and for keeping the minority elite in power.

    Like

  44. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE, there are at least two ways to keep “the minority elite in power”. One is to restrict the voting franchise in some way favorable to the elite, the other is to place no restriction on the franchise and open it to everyone (i.e. democracy unlimited). Most nations, including America, pick places in between and specify qualifications for the franchise. We have no embarked on the second road.
    Having a serious discussion on how to fashion a voting franchise would be at least interesting, and possibly even illuminating. Having such a discussion with you is problematic, since you have yet to demonstrate to me that you would be willing to lay aside your ‘gotcha commenting’ approach.
    In any event, here’s what I said a year ago –
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/09/taking-stock-16-september-2010.html

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  45. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George, from my POV, BenE is a political novice with little common sense about the way the world works, in a political sense. I don’t have your ability in the use of words but at least I know that and appreciate it. BenE is out of his league.

    Like

  46. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    I will read your link at a later date but my gotcha questions are legitimate. From your opinions posted here my guess you believe that only a small few people should have the right to vote or hold office. There is nothing gotcha about it.
    Here are two examples of favoring the elite
    The new ID requirements would be a way to hold down the vote for the party who represents the poor, elderly, and urban voters? In my opinion it is basically a poll tax or the reincarnate of Jim Crow laws.
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-19-states-require-voter-ID_n.htm
    Citizens United Decision allowing unlimited money to be spent anonymously by domestic and foreign corporations, this turns our elections at the mercy of the wealthiest individuals/ corporations on the planet. This reduces the average persons influence and representation even further.

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  47. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE – actually I believe that the current voting system is broken and am searching for a reasonable alternative to it that provides a stable beneficial governance including an economic system that maximizes the minimum income level in some Pareto-optimal manner. I don’t yet have a preferential system in mind and would like to explore alternatives with people of goodwill – are you one of them?
    BTW, I know of no evidence that shows putting in place an ID system that reliably allows only the legal electorate to vote is in any way harmful to any voter. But the evidence is overwhelming that not providing such a system does promote and enable voter fraud.

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  48. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Hell, we can’t even have a photo Id requirement. The system is only as good as the people running it and if they are susceptible to cheating like say Tammany, then the people lose their faith. With motor voter and same day registration, all placed into reality by democrats, and with the democrat shills like ACORN and the unions, we have to stay diligent to the voter thieves no matter which system is in pace.

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  49. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Diaz-Mulsims-UN-Diaz-Muslims-UN-Diaz-Muslims-UN
    Phoney,trumped up, flavor of the month, conspiracy, brought to you by the people who live and profit from America being in a constant state of fear.

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  50. George Rebane Avatar

    MikeT – I missed the logic of your 303pm, or was a blanket dismissive the only alternative at hand?

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