Rebane's Ruminations
August 2011
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George Rebane

[This is the corrected form of my Union column for August.  In the submitted form I mistakenly assigned PM Cameron to the Labor Party.  However, due to a glitch, it did not appear today but will instead publish next Saturday 20aug11 here, hopefully in the corrected version as below.  Thanks again to readers for pointing out my blooper.  In the post below I have addended comments about a related piece on the “skills gap” that appeared in the 11aug11 WSJ.]

There’s a burr under my blanket about how our young people are short-changed by establishment schools.  But before getting to that irritation, we need to frame the issue.

Across the world we have two massive social storms merging into an historical typhoon of unknown proportions.  Expanding economic crises due to massive overspending by European Union governments and the United States is colliding with an un(der)employed youth demographic already cooked into developed western societies.  The result is growing civil unrest.

Without adding in the so-called Arab Spring uprisings across the middle east and Africa, Europe is showing the strains of belated austerity measures as the growing “number of protests against public-spending cuts have turned violent.”  They began last year in Greece and have haphazardly spread across southern Europe, and now we have witnessed days of wanton rioting and looting in the UK.

There Tory Prime Minister Cameron has attempted to sweep it all under the “pure criminality” rug, but when such criminality quickly spread from London to other big cities like Birmingham, Bristol, and Liverpool, then wiser heads know that there is something more than spontaneous hooliganism going on.

We in the US are not immune from this social disease.  Here no progressive politician would consider sponsoring a serious cut in the only major entitlements that might slow our fiscal freefall.  But cuts will come, they have to.  And then we will see the thread count of our civilization’s ‘gossamer veil’.  It has ripped before.

So what have we been doing with our young people, those whom we expect to graduate from high school and go on to college or into the job market?  Other than giving most of them a second rate education, we send a large fraction of our youth into the job market without even a high school diploma.


Our high schools reached their pinnacle performance in 1969 when 77% of entering students graduated.  That was about the time that President Johnson’s Great Society programs began to kick in, and public education started going downhill.  Things shifted into a real low gear ten years later when President Jimmy Carter launched one of the most arguably damaging government bureaucracies, the Department of Education – costs skyrocketed, performance plummeted, and graduation rates dropped to about 68%.

Consider that today our secondary public education mills annually pump out about 4.3 million students in their late teens.  Of those 1.3 million are dropouts – no diploma.  By the way, taking into account people retiring and immigrants arriving explains why the economy needs to add about 250,000 jobs a month.

But these jobs are not being created, and the dropouts go directly to the bottom of the hiring barrel, joining the ranks of the unschooled and unemployed.  Dropout rates are disproportionately higher in urban areas where such young become the ignorant and malleable fodder for politicians who promise them checks and jobs they can’t fill.

My regular work with young people on various educational and scholarship programs, gives me a chance to talk about their futures.  Perhaps the biggest tragedy is that these young people – with or without diplomas – leave high school clueless as to what awaits them in the real world.

The punchline is that almost all the students don’t know what skills are required for various jobs, the kinds of jobs currently in demand, and how technology will impact the future jobs picture.  They don’t have a clue because no one has told them.  Almost all of them are lackadaisical about what field or career would interest them.  They believe there is plenty of time to get all that sorted out after getting into college.

No one told them how life gets faster after you leave high school.  No one told them the best subjects to take while you’re making up your mind (today’s answer – science, math, computer programming).  Many so-called educators in high school are silent on those topics, and mostly give out self-esteem points if you play sports or sing in a choir.  There is little sense of the ‘career urgency’ we all had when we graduated in the dark ages.

So today’s overwhelming fraction of young enter the job markets under-skilled for the available work.  Many of them instinctively become sucklings at the public trough, looking for this or that government job where skills are optional. Or they simply join the angry unemployed living on some public transfer payment.  What will they do when they learn that their check may no longer be in the mail?

Take some time to talk to your neighborhood teenager.

George Rebane is an entrepreneur and a retired systems scientist in Nevada County who regularly expands these and other themes on KVMR and Rebane’s Ruminations (www.georgerebane.com).

[Addendum]  Democratic Senators Landrieu and Murray wrote ‘How to Close the Skills Gap’ for the 11aug11 WSJ.  In it they correctly cite a “skills gap” that prevents most workers, young and old, from filling the jobs that companies have available.  The Bureau of Labor Statistics states that over three million jobs are currently open, but no qualified workers to take them.

Being of the liberal bent, the good Senators have a hard time finding the proper causes for such a shortfall – at least none that can’t be solved by more federal spending.  They are totally blind to the abortion we call public secondary education in America, and instead want to reauthorize, reform, and refund “the Workforce Investment Act, our nation's foundational federal work-force development policy.”  Yes, indeed.

In the process, they seem to have rediscovered apprenticeship as a way to get young people into the workplace and have the employer fill in what the schools missed.  On a more positive note, in addition to finally realizing that there is a growing skills gap contributing to unemployment, these liberal senators are the first that I have seen who give a nod to the dreadful state of adult literacy in America (oft cited along with innumeracy on these pages, e.g. here and here) – “According to a report by the National Commission on Adult Literacy, 90 million adults have literacy skills so low that success in postsecondary education and training is becoming more and more challenging.”

“More and more challenging” my overtaxed a$$ets!  In the aggregate, the high schools are a failed public institution made so by years of indiscriminate government funding and the tender mercies of the teachers’ unions.  And these senators prescribe the predictable reprise of perpetually failed prescriptions.

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122 responses to “Our Painfully Uninformed Young People (Addended)”

  1. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    First things first: fiscal policy. I think both debt and unemployment are serious problems. We are in the unfortunate situation where traditional ways to reduce unemployment, stimulative spending, exacerbates our debt problem. Thus, a policy that reduces unemployment while reducing debt is needed. Such a policy would cut entitlements, restore pre-2000 tax rates, restructure the military to simultaneously address the asymmetrical nature of modern warfare and cut the defense budget by $300 billion per year. The savings, which I have calculated at more than $1.5 Trillion per year, could then be used to reduce debt and engage in stimulative activity. I would propose a 2:1 ratio of debt reduction to investment. The stimulative acivity I would support includes large investments in infrastructure, education (to increase technical, scientific and other job skills), and energy (both carbon based and renewable).This done in conjunction with a policy that accelerates inflation, in a controlled way, thus increasing the money supply to help get spending going, would gradually get people back to work and reduce debt; providing the predictability and confidence necessary to get the $3.7 Trillion in private cash reserves sitting on the sidelines right now moving.
    That is a bi-partisan, gradual, conservative fiscal policy.

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  2. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    By the way, the second point in the spending above is the link to the topic of this thread. I do believe we need education reform, to include both reform of the tenure system and an increase in technical and skills training. I just think that eliminating tenure creates a political fight that is counter productive to that goal by freezing our political processes. It is an unachievable objective that turns education reform into a partisan political football.

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  3. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I see that you are censoring uncivil diologue, at least mine. Considering that, you may want to eliminate Greg’s reference to Doug living in a ‘socialized bubble’, McD’s referring to my comments as BS, and Todd’s referring to me as ‘slanderous’.

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  4. Kathy Jones Avatar
    Kathy Jones

    The foundation for the demise of the middle class did NOT start with the Nixon administration. The foundation for the Nixon years was built during the administrations of JFK and continued into the Lyndon Johnson administration (check your history!). It was Johnson that set down the foundation for “The Great Society”, which by its very nature needed to suck from the middle class for support. Johnson’s “War On Poverty” has back fired, and now we have a large percent of our population NOT paying any taxes, but sucking up the dwindling tax dollars that are paid into the system. Americans need to work to pay income tax!
    Remember, also, it was Kennedy that torqued up US involvement in VN which turned into combat, and Nixon who brought the troops home!

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  5. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Some people are a little confused here.
    There is no such thing as tenure in the K-12 system in California. Teachers can be fired for cause at any time. A parent saying a teacher is “bad,” is not adequate grounds, in and of itself, for such an action.
    What Greg called for is mandatory firing every year of the “bottom of the barrel” which in different places at different times, he indicates different percentages. Such yearly firings of a predetermined number of professionals does NOT occur on any sort of mandatory basis in any other field.
    It is akin to (pick you favorite despot) ordering the shooting of every 12th villager until moral improves.
    Want to buy an election?
    try this:
    “So, Bachman bought and paid for 6k people to show up but only got 4k to actually vote for her. Now she declares victory and the media is treating her like the Queen of Sheba. Ron Paul had ~200 votes less than she got and didn’t pay for any of them to my knowledge but the media acts like he’s invisible. All this “straw poll” is is a way for the repud party and the “winner”(who buys the most votes)to raise money and the media is complicit. It’s a disgusting misuse of our political system.”
    If the economy really tanks, Ron Paul will be a shoo-in.

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  6. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    This so cute, but what does it mean in real numbers? What was the school student population back then, K-12, and what is it now? What was the number of employees back then, what is it now? What was the number of teachers back then, and how many are there now? Did you add in the community colleges, and their zillions of $$$ saving adjunct one class a week teachers?
    “Since 1970 overall public schools employment has increased 10 times faster than public school enrolment”
    “enrollment”

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  7. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Cupcake, Keachie did spend his working life in a socialized bubble, in Baghdad by the Bay no less, and his statement that prefaced the comment was proof he didn’t have a clue about non-governmental, non-union job security.
    Music isn’t just taught in K-12, it has been a key part of academia for as long as academia has existed. Here’s a snippet from “Medieval University” on Wikipedia: “The first six years were organized by the faculty of arts, where the seven liberal arts were taught: arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, music theory, grammar, logic, and rhetoric.”
    Academic is not a synonym for Letters & Science. Even Pythagoras was a music theorist.

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  8. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    The second topic: unimodal versus bimodal income and wealth distribution. I would challenge your assumption that we have a unimodal “hump”.
    Although the great hump of wealth is still in the middle, the proportion of wealth in the middle, relative to the top, is shrinking, and has indeed shrunk dramatically in the last 4 years as a result of the current “Great Correction”, as some economists are now calling it, primarily because the definition of wealth held is insufficient to tell the real story. One must also consider the debt to asset ratio of people in different strata of incomes. To do that a more accurate measure would be household net worth.
    In 1995 and 2005, respectively, household net worth was approximately $60 Trillion. Household net worth today is approximately $10 Trillion, although that is increasing as most Americans increase their savings rate. The functional effect of this dramatic drop has been to leave most Americans about 3 month away from bankruptcy should a disaster strike them.
    Social scientists agree that the American middle class is the engine of commerce, and most industries, from construction to education to consumer products rely on a strong middle class, and on the middle class having large amounts of disposable income. The dramatic drop in household net worth described above has stopped this engine.
    Recently essayist Charles Hugh Smith, writing in Business Insider, made the observation that the American middle class has become ‘debt serfs”.
    Smith notes that, the top 20% of the American populace holds roughly 93% of the country’s financial wealth, and the top 1% of the country holds approximately 43% of the money in the U.S. Meanwhile, the middle 20% of the population — what would, officially, be called the middle class — holds only 6% of the country’s total assets. While disturbing, even this minuscule share of the wealth pie dwarfs the bottom 40% of the country, who control less than 1%.
    Which begs the question, what is the definition of middle class? I would content that the middle class is primarily defined by their assets; they must have assets sufficient to provide transportation, health care, housing with significant equity, and education. If this is the definition of the middle class, according to Mr. Smith, then, “Clearly, Americans are holding a fantasy-view of their piece of the American Dream/middle-class membership. A number of people I know consider themselves middle-class based on their substantial income–but they own very few financial/liquid assets, and if they lose their jobs then their health coverage vanishes.”
    One could easily argue that Mr. Smith’s politics are progressive, but data is a political. I would challenge readers to look at the following slideshow, check the data, and decide for yourselves if the great American middle class is in good shape, and whether the “great central hump” George refers to really exists:
    http://www.businessinsider.com/22-statistics-that-prove-the-middle-class-is-being-systematically-wiped-out-of-existence-in-america-2010-7#83-percent-of-all-us-stocks-are-in-the-hands-of-1-percent-of-the-people-1
    A synopsis of the findings: 83% of all US stocks are in the hands of 1% of the people; 61% of Americans live ‘paycheck to paycheck”; 36% of Americans say they don’t contribute anything to retirement savings; for the first time in US history banks own a greater share of residential housing net worth than homeowners; the bottom 50% of income earners in the US own less than 1% of the nations wealth; 21% of all children in the US are living below the poverty line; and my personal favorite, the average federal worker in America now earns 60% more than the average worker in the private sector.
    I threw that last one in because it goes a long way toward explaining the sense of disdain most Americans feel for government today. However it is important to note this statistic does NOT say that the average federal worker makes 60% more than a like private sector job, that ration is really about 1.3 to 1 including benefits.
    If we are going to make progress toward recovery we have got to get people working again, on things made and used in the USA, and we may be able to gradually rebuild the “great central hump” that George was referring to.

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  9. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    First, an intentional inflation is never conservative economic policy, as it steals from savers in order for those in debt to pay off in a debased currency.
    Second, tenure needs to be abolished because there really isn’t any role of academic freedom for a 4th grade math teacher, and if they can’t teach math very well they should be shown the door. Nor is there a need for tenure for any K-12 teacher, who, unfortunately, also tend to come from the bottom of the academic barrel anyway, and there really isn’t academic freedom now. One friend of mine, a retired music educator and fine instrumentalist from central California, kept his mouth shut regarding politics for 35 years. He was a conservative and a Republican, pretty middle of the road, and he existed in such a Democratic sea that his career would have been toast had he spoken out. No, he wouldn’t have been fired, but he would have been starved for resources and would have had little cooperation from others. He’d seen it happen all too often.

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  10. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    And Greg, who claims I don’t know him, also comes up with incredible BS about my presumed past:
    “Not only do individuals get cut, sometimes fairly and sometimes not, entire companies sometimes get wiped out.”
    Greg, you missed the memo on the years between 1974 -1985, BEFORE I got in as a probationary teacher. If you can find it, look up Chuck Peddle’s computer and activities with the Victor 9000. I spent time selling these machines, until a bitter divorce of the owner of the company sent me packing, to again start selling, this time SALVO database software, which went swimmingly until the VC folks pulled out, and I had products sold which now couldn’t manufactured. Then I worked for a firm an hour and 1/2 commute away, selling in a storefront. Then one day they told me and everyone else we were fired. Our last check was here, the bank was there, and not all checks would be covered. I had my ten speed, and got to the bank first.
    All the while I was doing photography on the water and in the air above San Francisco Bay, product shots, and doing substitute work in SFUSD at $44 a day.
    So bull to any and all comments about what I do and don’t know about business and the private sector. I got hired to teach computers, because there were no minorities and/or women available to take up the slack, and I stayed in the Bay Area to protect my older child in a complex and nasty joint custody arrangement.
    So now, George and the rest of you, when the Koch Brothers take it all, and you wind up living in one Reinette Senum’s tin roofed plywood palaces, will you finally admit that unbridled capitalism was probably not the smartest choice?

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  11. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Kathy, I did not say the, “foundation for the demise of the middle class” started in the Nixon administration, I said the drop started in the Nixon administration. I assiduously avoided ascribing cause, because I did not want to get into that debate. Statistically the American middle class was growing in its share of wealth until about 1973, and began declining in its share of wealth after that, thus, “the demise of the American middle class, which began in the Nixon administration” is an accurate statement.
    If your contention is that the CAUSE of the decline of the middle class began in the previous administrations, you may well be right. I did not address that issue.

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  12. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    BTW, in my usual improvisional candid poseur style, there are some of my NC Fair photos at:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/keachie/collections/72157627307232581/

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  13. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    See Greg that is what starts these eruptions: First, I did not address you, I addressed George. Second, I did not call you a name. Third, implying as you do that Keachie’s teaching history disqualifies his opinion as socialist is intellectually arrogant and dismissive, an intentional insult. Fourth, attacking him, or me, personally is against George’s stated desire that these posts stay on topic.
    But if I must compare you to a character in Animal Farm, it would be Squealer.

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  14. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Music and computer programming go hand in hand, Borland had their own jazz band with Phillip Kan as the leader. Too bad one of his fellow players, instrumental and corporate, Gene, took off for Symantec.
    “Socialized bubble” at SFUSD? You don’t know 1/100th of what you don’t know, Greg.

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  15. RL Crabb Avatar
  16. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Greg, I agree that in normal economic times, and under normal conditions, one would never seek to increase inflation, for the very reason you stated. However, the antithesis of inflation is deflation, or a negative inflation rate, which many economists fear we are dangerously close to now, and which we experienced in 2009. Deflation is particularly dangerous because it can lead to conditions where decreases in prices, leading to decreases in production, which lead to decreases in wages, closing the loop and leading to further decreases in prices; the classic definition of a deflationary spiral.
    A little inflation can be OK, at the right time, and in moderate amounts. Adding a little inflation during a recession when there’s a lot of people in debt encourages consumers and businesses to spend rather than risk declining value of their money. Spending leads to increased production, which leads to increased employment, which leads to increased consumption, and the cycle repeats. If the value of debts drops a little it eases the burden on strapped borrowers. The key is that one has to keep control of the inflationary cycle as well. Our current inflation rate is about 2%, after being negative, or deflationary, for most of 2009.

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  17. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    That is a right-on cartoon. I was talking with a friend last night who is a part of the Oppenheim Fund crew from New York. They hire many Harvard/Ivy League types and there is now something different they have come across. When the grad arrives for the interview, the grad is now the questioner. What are the benies, vacation days, tardy policies etc. Rather than being concerned with the job and its duties, the lovelies the country is spitting ut from colleges only think about themselves and their wants and needs. We are seeing the results of the “self esteem” movement foisted on us by the liberals who have run our schools and colleges now for forty years.

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  18. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George, BTW, many union members stopped by and talked with us at the Republican booth. There are many of them trying to disengage themselves from the traditional unions because they are not being represented . There may become a movement en masse soon. It could spread across the country and it was clear from these people the union bosses are unmovable in their support for the left which is why there is disharmony. You are the only one of us I thin can do a post on this.

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  19. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Keachie, it is my understanding that anyone with tenure, including at the college level, can be fired for cause at any time. The issue would seem to be the definition of “cause”.
    Where I agree with the conservatives (and probably you) here is that I believe that a teacher who does not keep up in his/her field, is incompetent in some way, has consistently poor results with their students, or violates ethical or moral rules, should be able to be fired, WITH CAUSE, without administrators having to worry unduly about the level of challenge or oversight over that decision. If the teacher has a valid case that the termination is without cause there should be legal remedy there as well.

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  20. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Trust me, the Union’s do not give two whoops in H about teachers who are really beset with problems. The Union will give lip service and then hand the employee’s head over on a platter.

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  21. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Yes Doug, that is my experience as well. I think the real problem is in non-union school administrators who will not get rid of incompetent teachers.

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  22. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    The problem with “consistently poor results” is that oftentimes the student population varies dramatically in what I would call, for lack of a better word, “teachability.” Punishing a teacher in a core ghetto school for not achieving what happens in a school for the gifted is just plain silly.
    There’s a certain magic that makes up a “good” teacher, and that doesn’t always show up on test scores. And, there are no standardized test for music art and PE. What are you going to do, fire every 10th music teacher, or the coach who doesn’t bring home the city wide championship?
    Greg’s blanket assumption that year after year teachers have to be fired is just plain silly, and one more example of a citizen who wishes to blame the failings of his fellow adults, employers and employees, for the kids they produce, who happen to be rather high in “un-teachability” these days, on the teachers in the schools. Could it be that low wages lead to broken homes that leads to not the best attention in school on the part of kids of such marriages?
    Perhaps rotten attitudes about school and life in general are part of what George thinks is a “abominably” or “minimally” acceptable standard of living for the poorest? Those attitudes do not come forth in a vacuum, you know…

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  23. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Clearly results would need to be relative, and firing every 10th teacher smacks of anti-partisan tactics.

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  24. Kathy Jones Avatar
    Kathy Jones

    Music and computer programming are both good things. Most of the money making “so called” musicians I hear moaning about their pitiful lives are not classically trained (the foundation for good music of any type), and the masses without trained ears are filling these so called musicians piggy banks. Computer programming is so easily outsourced, that it is almost worthless when it comes to making a living.
    Where are the skills that are needed to survive, those considered the “art of living”? How many saleable skills are we giving kids right out of high school which give them entrée into the workforce? We have too may history, psych, and philosophy majors (because college is the “only” acceptable thing to do after HS) that ended up with a degree on the wall and barista job for their paycheck.

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  25. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Doing away with the Federal Department of Education would be a good start. The students need to form a ‘Student Union’ to combat the ills of the teachers union.
    Teaching reading, writing, math, science, history and economics should be enough to keep the kiddos busy all day. Sports, ‘arts’, FFA, should remain extra curricular activities. I recall being ‘forced’ to take x amounts of arts and x amounts of language to graduate from high school, though I would have rather taken a computer class or even home economics!

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  26. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    “The students need to form a ‘Student Union’ to combat the ills of the teachers union. ”
    This is already here. You can check out teachers at NU, for example. This rating service, student driven, has been around for at least seven years.
    http://www.ratemyteachers.com/nevada-union-high-school/3207-s

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  27. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “What Greg called for is mandatory firing every year of the “bottom of the barrel” which in different places at different times, he indicates different percentages. Such yearly firings of a predetermined number of professionals does NOT occur on any sort of mandatory basis in any other field.
    It is akin to (pick you favorite despot) ordering the shooting of every 12th villager until moral improves. ”
    Actually, it does a decent job of improving the morale of the employees doing a good job.
    Sorry Keach, you lose again. I believe virtually all companies make a concerted continuing effort to find underperforming employees and to help them either meet expectations or help them to the door. At Cisco Systems they were open that their goal was clearing the bottom 4% by their metrics each year and improving their recruiting and selection process to minimize poor fits. So you see, it is what is done out in the real world, and, not to split hairs, I didn’t say K-12 should get rid of the bottom 5% every year but rather there was nothing that was wrong with K-12 that would not be improved.
    Personally, I think a better idea would be getting rid of the bottom 10% each year until the teacher corps is populated primarily by the upper two quartiles of the college population rather than being dominated by the lower two, and when there must be a reduction in force, to ignore tenure and seniority to focus on performance.

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  28. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    I remember a poor teacher my sister was stuck with for math in Junior high a few decades ago. My dad was a counselor at the time at the same school and in this case, couldn’t get her moved. The teacher in question (in the Montebello Unified School District) would typically conduct class every day by writing an assignment on the board and then start reading the newspaper and refusing to answer questions. The guy was tenured, did not run afoul of any of the rules, and basically did no teaching. The union supported him. The administration hassled him as much as they could but had no teeth, and the guy (and the union rep) knew it.
    They did get rid of them a couple years later after he molested a kid (not a student of his school) he picked up in a park. So, refusal to do his job was not enough. Took a criminal act. Welcome to public education.

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  29. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “firing every 10th teacher smacks of anti-partisan tactics”
    What is an “anti-partisan tactic”?
    By the way, both Frisch and Keachie seem confused about the term “socialized”. It is not a synonym for socialist. K-12 in California is socialized. The government runs it. It’s paid for with taxes. Socialized.

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  30. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    And just how would you make an accurate, reliable, and verifiable assessment of your music, art and PE teachers? I understand you want to based everything on achievement tests for English and math, but again you will have great difficulty comparing ghetto and suburban school teachers for success. If a teacher had a group of kids for years on end, you might get somewhere, but how many times does a great teacher get the junk kids from the mediocre teacher the year before? Or the kid who is really permanently off the wall, and yet clever enough not to quite get himself kicked out of a school. There are some that view the educational system as a video game, and the teachers as the targets, and every uproar session as a victory.
    Does the PE teacher with the over weight kids get fired?
    Does the theater teacher with no drama queens one year get fired?
    You have already pointed out that the the upper 2 quartiles are not attracted to teaching because it pays too little. Are you in favor of increasing the salaries so that attracting them is even possible. If not, what other incentives will you use to get them into teaching? if you cannot come out four square in favor of something to attract them, then all you are really trying to do is tear down the current system, and replace it with home schooling and private schools, and at its heart, HOARD your MONEY, instead of contributing to the common good.
    What’s more, those upper two quartile folks are well aware of the risks of going into teaching already, and you want to make them face the firing squad because they got Mr. and Mrs. GodsGifttotheWorld kids who just didn’t have it upstairs, or had it beaten out of them by a church that wouldn’t love them unless they disavowed science? Greg, under your plan, the upper two quartiles will never enter the school house doors, unless they were born of privilege and feel it appropriate for themselves to pay something back, and can afford to become temporarily unemployed.

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  31. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    RLC, regarding that survey that inspired that Doonesbury…
    “Students who majored in the traditional liberal arts — including the social sciences, humanities, natural sciences and mathematics — showed significantly greater gains over time than other students in critical thinking, complex reasoning and writing skills.
    Students majoring in business, education, social work and communications showed the least gains in learning. However, the authors note that their findings don’t preclude the possibility that such students “are developing subject-specific or occupationally relevant skills.”
    No real surprise there. The subjects with the least academic rigor (including Education) produce the least learning. And note, Music is a traditional liberal art. Not an extracurricular activity.

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  32. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    “I believe virtually all companies make a concerted continuing effort to find underperforming employees and to help them either meet expectations or help them to the door.”
    And that’s why so many of them outsource their tech support to India and elsewhere to people who barely speak English, and haven’t much a a clue beyond the scripts in front of them about the problems they are supposedly there to help with? Let alone ZERO authority or access to actually do or affect anything?
    Greg, you have a truly Pollyanish view of corporations and how they operate. Read more Dilbert and 5th Wave.

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  33. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Keach, as usual you’re just pretending you didn’t grossly misunderstand and mischaracterize the world of work outaide the ed biz.
    Many more top students would become teachers were it not for the stultifying and often counterproductive certification process.

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  34. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Weak links, not top students, if they can’t cope with 1 1/2 years of simple minded ed courses. I really doubt that has anything to do with the situation.
    We’re right back to Greg doesn’t want to shell out for the common good.

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  35. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    “The teacher in question (in the Montebello Unified School District) would typically conduct class every day by writing an assignment on the board and then start reading the newspaper and refusing to answer questions.”
    Any teacher who tried this today would be thoroughly videoed and photographed and posted on YouTube and Facebook by the students, and would not last more than a month. Times have changed, Greg.

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  36. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Keach, “coping” with 1 1/2 years of b.s. in order to get a job is enough to push away someone with other options. And in order to pass those simple minded ed indoctrinations you have to keep your mouth shut if you have contrary views.
    We’re right back to Keachie thinking the status quo would be just fine if only the gov’t would throw more money their way.
    Times really have not changed. Just doing a lousy job isn’t cause for dismissal once past the probationary period.

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  37. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK, and here I thought that GregG has spent his life shelling out for the common good. What am I missing?

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  38. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Greg Goodnight… what is your impression of http://www.johnadamsacademy.com and would you join me in starting such a charter school in Nevada County?

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  39. bill tozer Avatar
    bill tozer

    Times may be a’changin, but one think has not, i. e., the old expression “close enough for government work”.

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  40. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Here is Warren Buffets Op-Ed in the NYTs and it is a doozy. He complains he and his “super-rich) pals don’t pay enough taxes. Nowhere did he say anything about the spending side of government. This statement of his is fairly instructive and if he is so dumb and he is a gazzillionaire, then our country is toast.
    “Many have joined the Giving Pledge, promising to give most of their wealth to philanthropy. Most wouldn’t mind being told to pay more in taxes as well, particularly when so many of their fellow citizens are truly suffering. ”
    What struck me about this self serving statement was liberals are always trying to redistribute wealth yet have been unable to get his or his super rich pals wealth. Why is that? If Americans are hurting Warren, cut California a check for 10 billion so we can balance the budget here. Then all the poor could have a ride to the Buffett soup line. Amazing hypocrisy from the third richest dude on the planet. What is ironic from my standpoint is I do not, as a middle class person, begrudge his wealth. I guess he has a lot of guilt.

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  41. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    MMcD, economics are stacked against even charter high achools, and despite lofty language, I’m unimpressed with that one.
    Was even less impressed after reading the founders bios. Several BYU grads, leading me to conclude it’s there for Roseville Mormons so they can avoid the public high schools.

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  42. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Greg, my educational philosophy has always been a Summerhill student centered one. This was considered contrary to the times when I went through. Ed courses were for the most part supremely boring, as I had already wet my feet as a tutor in West Oakland as an undergrad. If you don’t have enough energy to keep the Grad Ed profs happy and still have plenty of intellectual horsepower busy doing other things, you probably aren’t smart enough to be a good teacher.
    My my my, so Mormons are on the off list, how about born-again home schoolers?
    George, I do not view Greg’s life as one full of good works or attitude. He, without having spent one minute in a classroom where I was teaching, has anointed himself the judge and jury, not only for me but 250,000 other California teacher, and declared us all, repeatedly, “losers.”
    The day he actually does set up a charter school and manages to met his standards with a broad cross section of kids in this county, then, and only then, will he have done the walk, instead of just all the hot air talk. In the meantime, he’s all for more mouth and less money, when it comes to the public schools and their staffs. So far, his fantasy school doesn’t exist, and he’s doing a “lousy job” of making any such thing go.

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  43. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Greg, can you give me a quick summary to support your thesis “economics are stacked against even charter high schools”
    I will wait to find out why the founder’s religion or the desire to avoid public schools would be a negative (which seems to be the opposite of earlier comments of yours).

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  44. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    “By the way, both Frisch and Keachie seem confused about the term “socialized”. It is not a synonym for socialist. K-12 in California is socialized. The government runs it. It’s paid for with taxes. Socialized.”
    It rather of interest to me that Greg references words that does not exist ANYWHERE in this post and all the comments, except in his own comment. Weird!

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  45. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    I have NEVER declared any group of teachers to be losers. George, will you please remove that lie of Keachie’s meant only to defame me.

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  46. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Nor do I think I have ever used the term “loser” (Keachie’s quotes) to refer to any group of teachers. Keach is just making this up.

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  47. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Correction to keep the Propwashout happy:
    Greg has said numerous times, including right in this very thread,
    “Sorry Keach, you lose again.
    Teacher who do a lousy job are winners?
    The inferences and implications are peppered and sprinkled regularly through his comments, and I double dog dare Greg Goodknight to put in print:
    “There are no teachers in California that I would consider to be losers.”
    Greg just loves to play hide and seek. Michelle Bachman must be his role model, as she is now trying to claim that the state of being gay is not topic suitable for questions, as she runs for the Presidency.
    Wonder where Greg is on the following problem Christians, the Pearls, not the Christians banded against them:
    http://whynottrainachild.com/tag/court/

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  48. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Pearl’s critics find such child rearing abusive, and they try to steer parents away from his guidance. Crystal Lutton, a Christian counselor from Arizona, spends her days helping moms “unlearn” Pearl’s techniques. At least two Web sites and countless blogs rail against the Pearls’ ministry, calling his books child-abuse manuals. In the United States, critics have posted hundreds of scathing reviews of his books on Amazon.com.
    Overseas, a group in England is trying to block a home-schooling magazine from being distributed there because it advertises Pearl’s books, said Michael Fortune-Wood, a home-schooling father and editor of a home-school journal. They are also lobbying Amazon UK to stop selling the Pearls’ books.
    Meggan Judge, a mother in Alaska, wishes someone had stopped her from following Pearl’s instruction sooner.
    “Thirty times a day, I was striking my son. He wasn’t even 2 years old,” Judge said. “I kept waiting: Where is this joy we were promised?’”
    She slowly gave up Pearl’s methods three years ago after locking her son in his room one afternoon for fear that she would hurt him.
    Years later, hearing of Lynn Paddock’s story, Judge knows she’s lucky. She suspects she could have been driven to such lengths if she hadn’t met a community of other Christian mothers on the Internet who urged her to abandon Pearl’s teachings.
    “Without a doubt, I know I would have been capable of that,” Judge said. “Anyone who says they wouldn’t is a liar. I never knew I had anger issues until I started using his methods.”
    Read more: http://www.newsobserver.com/2006/04/30/73811/parenting-guru-is-revered-reviled.html#ixzz1V9hTJ2pX

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  49. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Pleaae note Keachie has taken my assertion he had once again lost an argument and turned it into my having called 250000 teachers “losers”.
    George, it’s your blog. Do such lies pass muster here?

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  50. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Greg, I seldom discuss anything with DK because he is so out there.

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