Rebane's Ruminations
July 2011
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George Rebane

“Norway's murders shouldn't be an excuse to shut down debate over multiculturalism and the failure of many Muslims to assimilate to Europe's cultural norms. British Prime Minister David Cameron and French President Nicolas Sarkozy have broken taboos by speaking sensibly on the subject. Democracies need to address their anxieties openly, rather than push the political debate underground where the likes of an Anders Breivik can let them stew into a rationale for violence.”  26jul11 WSJ

The recent terror in Norway is an event that again has altered our times.  But it is not yet clear that its dissection in the aftermath will serve to illuminate these times.  This is made amply clear in the various media venues that serve commentary and discussion.  The event most certainly has highlighted the radically different views held by various ideologically defined cohorts, and in the US it is another timber thrown into the fire that continues to consume the bonds holding the country together.

This is no more visible than on these very pages as documented in the comment stream for ‘Norway Terror’.  For the more attentive reader, it is obvious that much of the generated heat comes from the discussants not taking the time (or being able?) to understand that they are semantically imprecise and all over the map when presenting their views.  Semantically orthogonal aspects of the case are co-joined willy nilly and the discussion wanders in random circles, resolving nothing, including where people stand on the related ideas and issues.

In the hope that more commenters here are people of good will, people who want to use this venue to clarify, dispute, or confront each other’s ideas instead of continuing to play ad hominem ‘gotcha’, I offer the following (no doubt incomplete) list of semantically orthogonal notions about the Norway tragedy, and invite others to add to it their own discoveries as they meditate on the greater dimensions of this tragedy.

Then in no particular order, some semantically orthogonal (or independent) areas that come under the larger umbrella of ideas and notions arising from Norway’s terror are –

1. The right of a culture to endure and thrive in its homeland,
2. The right of a culture to spread trans-nationally through (assimilating, insular) settlements,
3. The historical impact of multi-culturalism (cultural mixing) on individual cultures,
4. The status and objectives of the current multi-nationally based Islamic jihad,
5. The status and objectives of non-Islamic needs for energy from Islamic lands,
6. The social impact of EU immigration policy,
7. Major themes in today’s European acceptance/confrontation with Muslim immigrants,
8. Norway’s immigration policy,
9. The behavior of Muslims in Norway,
10. The formal political structure of Norway (major, minor political parties and recognized nationalistic and trans-nationalistic movements),
11.  Norway’s sub-rosa political structure (secret organizations, terror cells, etc),
12.  The recent sentiments of ethnic Norwegians toward immigration in general,
13.  The recent sentiments of ethnic Norwegians toward its Muslim population,
14.  Legitimate and illegitimate means of opposing cultural dilution,
15.  The ideas in Breivik’s manifesto/compendium,
16.  Assessment of Breivik’s stated objectives,
17.  Assessment of Breivik’s means (the terror killings),
18.  Assessment of Breivik’s sanity and/or mental state,
19.  Impact of extra-national political movements and policies on Norway,
20.  The political future of Europe,
21.  The ethnic future of Europe,
22.  The future of western culture in Europe,
23.  What the Breivik massacre reveals about American politics,
24.  New and beneficial policies for Norway,
25.  New and beneficial policies for America.

If a discussant is unwilling to recognize how these notions stand on their own, then it should be his job to establish, identify, and defend any co-joinings in his arguments.  If a discussant doesn’t understand any of this, then it is better for all if he continues to study the matter and remains a passive reader of the debate until the ‘Aha!’ occurs.

Posted in , , ,

139 responses to “Discussing Norway and Breivik”

  1. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    ULCA…that’s almost George’s alma mater!

    Like

  2. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Bill Tozer did leave out one mass murderer, I’m sure it was just a slight oversight…
    Many American books, television documentaries, and Sunday sermons that preach of Hitler’s “evil” have eliminated Hitler’s god for their Christian audiences, but one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler’s God equals the same God of the Christian Bible. Hitler held many hysterical beliefs which not only include, God and Providence but also Fate, Social Darwinism, and ideological politics. He spoke, unashamedly, about God, fanaticism, idealism, dogma, and the power of propaganda. Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:
    “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”
    Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible’s God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery’s coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler’s most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many have questioned Hitler’s stand on Christianity. Although he fought against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various reasons; this does not necessarily make one against one’s own Christian beliefs. Nor did the Vatican’s Pope & bishops ever disown him; in fact they blessed him! As evidence to his claimed Christianity, he said:
    “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
    -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
    Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Christian Austria and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to Aryan Christians. Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther.

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  3. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    MichaelA, ditto.
    DougK, i had a physical with all my pals from NU in our senior year in Oakland. I was 1A. Sorry you have a hearing problem but nobody is perfect.
    Oh, regarding lunch counters, (I really did understand MA’s original jab but I wanted to see how much bloviating he would do), I too like HD and especially now that they play FOX News on all their TV’s. If MA has proof the payroll taxes are not paid I would suggest he turn them in since he is making quite an allegation. Please give us the proof so we can better understand how a 40 year business is so bad.

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  4. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Sorry I wasn’t more clear, Todd. I wasn’t making any allegations about our beautiful Dump. I just know of a couple of lunch counters in Nevada County that don’t pay all of their payroll taxes, and I suspect there are more. You’ve heard about the underground economy, right?

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  5. Mike Thornton Avatar

    OMG, Herman Cain meets some Muslims and discovers that they are actually pretty much human beings just like him. Then he has the class to do something incredibly rare in regressive land these days, he apologizes for his previous statements and bias.
    Maybe there’s hope for the Godfather of Pizza after all…
    http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/herman-cain-apologizes-to-muslim-leaders-after-meeting/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+OTB+%28Outside+The+Beltway+|+OTB%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo
    (removed for saying something nice about a regressive)

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  6. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Gee, the Internet rule prevails. Bring up Hitler and the conversation goes away.
    On lunch counters, 1960’s haven’t rooted out all ethnic hatred, see today’s The Union and swastikas at Memorial Park.
    Amy Goodman goofed, to the tune of a factor of 1,000. Listed cost of wars at 5 billion, when the number was 5 trillion. Went right on through The Union’s editorial staff, despite items listed in story worth more than 6 billion. In fact, they high lighted in large type, as a leader for the story.
    More on lunch counters, a waitress from Perko’s will get at least some of my future business, for stopping to jump start vehicle after battery failed big time. Normally I’m a dumpster too.
    Back in 2008, Joeseph Stiglitz listed the war at at least 3 trillion:
    “The Three Trillion Dollar War: The True Cost of the Iraq Conflict (Hardcover)
    Three trillion dollars for the war in Iraq is an incredible amount, almost beyond comprehension, and certainly far beyond the figures provided by the Bush administration. Yet this total is made both credible and comprehensible through the documentation of Joseph Stiglitz (2001 Nobel Prize-winner in economics, and Professor at Columbia) and Linda Bilmes, Harvard University expert on public policy and finance.”

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  7. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    ” The right of a culture to endure and thrive in its homeland,”
    So then you agree that the CIA coup in Iran in 1952 was a violation of this right. Also the invasion of Iraq
    You can also clump in other CIA assignations, coups and interventions in this category of violating the rights of sovereign nations.

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  8. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Maybe you could ask the same question about the genocidal conquest of the “New World”
    (removed for daring to challenge Euro-American Centrism)

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  9. George Rebane Avatar

    Gentlemen – please see tomorrow’s post on item #1.
    MikeT – I’m sorry to report that you have no idea of what you write that is offensive. Only your snarky ad hominems are being removed. That shouldn’t be too complex of a discrimination problem.
    DougK – say more about the “actual cost of the war”, because if you are right, then the reported marginal cost of the war has been significantly under-reported.

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  10. Mike Thornton Avatar

    So, George (this is a serious question) can you tell me why you never hold Todd to any standards? I’m just curious about why he can say anything he wants too and no matter how nasty it is, you let it ride. I’d just like to try and understand the logic and ethics of that?

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  11. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George here is the latest Krauthammer column and it is called The Great Divide. Maybe now the lefty commenters here will understand why we just can’t agree.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-great-divide/2011/07/28/gIQAeOtifI_story.html

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  12. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE – re your 1249pm comment, I’m afraid you misunderstood the meaning of the 25 points, but hopefully not that of the entire post. I established no such right for a culture in point #1, and only included it as a very relevant topic for discussion (about which I will give my commentary in tomorrow’s posting). The intent of this post was to suggest a structure for discussing the Norway terror in particular, and the Islamic incursion into Europe in general.
    MikeT – Todd doesn’t take well to turning the other cheek, and I’m working with him on alternative responses. One thing in Todd’s favor is that he has yet to gratuitously attack me, and we both agree on more things than those we disagree when it comes to public policy and how the world works. You will have noticed that I have a pretty long fuse in letting RR commenters duke it out with each other, nevertheless I am trying to change that.
    But since you ask, I’ll be frank. We live in different universes, and your coming to my blog to gratuitously attack me instead of the presented ideas just pisses me off. I barely tolerate your presence here, and do so only because you serve a purpose as Exhibit A of how a hard left collectivist interprets the same world that we all look at. I think it benefits a wide spectrum of RR readers to directly experience your screed, otherwise folks just hear incredulous stories about people like you and wouldn’t know what to believe. You effectively remove such doubts.
    Your (and everyone else’s) ideas would go farther with this audience if you would be able to stick to the topics under discussion (I would offer as exemplar the relentless, hard, but gentlemanly debates in which PaulE participates). But in the end, I guess a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do. And this is a serious answer.

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  13. Mike Thornton Avatar

    [Deleted for being true to form. From the sound of it, this may have been his swan song. However, one can never tell – last time he left with too much back spin. In any event, vaya con Dios. gjr]

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  14. George Rebane Avatar

    As promised, my contribution to #1 ‘Cultural Rights’ is posted and awaits your tender mercies.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2011/07/cultural-rights.html

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  15. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George, I was reading the AP this morning and of course they and their leftwing cohorts across Europe are trying to muzzle and corral anyone they deem to be from the right. Of course they are using the word “extreme” to indicate anyone on the right. Now what is fascinating to me is the concerted effort across Europe and here n the leftwing circles, to make it all about Islam. This nut killed his fellow Norwegians to supposedly make a point about Islam? He would have better made his terrorist point by murdering people who practice Islam if he was sane I think. The press and the politicians of Europe are not interested in that point. So, by killing fellow Norwegians seems to be less important to the analysis by them than the nuts hate for Islam. I am still trying to understand that but perhaps you can better explain than me.
    Lastly, since Europe was governed by the USSR until 1991 or so, by force, and it is a leftwing idealogy, how is it the press and the politicians of Europe have such a hatred for anything middle and right? I would think they would be very sensitive to all the years of commie rule as they were unable to experience western style freedoms including thought from the “right”?

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  16. George Rebane Avatar

    ToddJ – The most plausible (sane?) analysis that I’ve heard is Breivik’s intent to draw attention to the political forces (in power and in training) that he believes enabled and supports the Muslim immigration. Therefore he is trying to draw attention to a leveraged response by fellow Norwegians by pointing out the guilty political leadership rather than making resident Muslims a target and therefore pitied victims. That’s the best that I can understand for what came out of that fevered mind.
    The west European press has been a leftwing organ since before the Bolshevik revolution. Anything collectivist is looked upon kindly. They see the 75 year atrocities of Soviet communism as a grand experiment that went wrong and needs to be repeated, and this time correctly. Our lamestream are their country cousins, and continue trumpeting every socialist turn that is made in Europe, Africa, and Latin America. There will never come a time when collectivists admit that it won’t work; their eternal motto is, ‘But next time we’ll do it right.’

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  17. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    “They see the 75 year atrocities of Soviet communism as a grand experiment that went wrong and needs to be repeated, and this time correctly.”
    George, this is a grand generalization that I’m quite surprised is coming from you. Can you provide some documentation for this sweeping declaration?

    Like

  18. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    On the “actual cost of the war,” I can only add that assuming our Nobel prize winning economist is a far lefty, and maybe a bad economist to boot, I rather doubt that he would be off by more than a factor of 50%. 2.5 Trillion builds a lot of infrastructure and funds the jobs that come with them, thus lowering the cost of doing business inside the USA, which would have in turn strengthen the USA economy. We could have been energy independent, with good roads and bridges. Instead, what have we reaped?

    Like

  19. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    BTW, how do we get a picture avatar to work here? I have a gravatar.

    Like

  20. RL Crabb Avatar

    One wonders if hobbits and fairies can co-exist in Middle Earth.

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  21. George Rebane Avatar

    Don’t know about Middle Earth, but in San Circumcisco it’s the law.
    DougK, by “picture avatar” do you mean what command set would let you include a picture in/with a comment?

    Like

  22. Steve Wynn Avatar
    Steve Wynn

    Todd eats for free everyday of his adult life as he’s never had to pay for anything (including his bad business investments!) [SteveW, I’m trying to purge RR of this kind of crap coming in from left field. Behave yourself.]

    Like

  23. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, re “grand generalization” – please turn on MSNBC or almost any other lamestream outlet. A little bit of socialism is like being a little bit pregnant as the EU countries, and now the US, are finding out. The easy out from any local problem arising from using other people’s money is to get more of it by the gun or printing press. And as the rules multiply, freedoms wither, and soon we are there.
    Some early insight
    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-255.html
    and a more comprehensive survey
    http://www.cato.org/pubs/dpa/dpa11.pdf

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  24. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    GeorgeR,
    That command set would be nice too, but what I am referring to is the fact that only your pretty smiley photographic face accompanies your comments, and the rest of us have line squiggle graphics instead.

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  25. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK – OK, understood. I have no idea when my puss suddenly appeared in that box; I did nothing to put it there. It must have appeared through the hidden graces of TypePad since that jpg is stored on RR. Let me rummage around in the guts of TypePad and see what I can find.

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  26. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George, a couple of months ago we had the following exchange
    “So George under your definition is Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland Socialist countries on the path to Communism?
    PaulE, I have no idea. But their state run programs seem to be gobbling up an ever greater fraction of their GDP. As the song says, ‘Something’s gotta give.”
    It’s a very convenient fear tactic to exaggerate situations to aid a weak argument. Show me one, just one, European country that has completed the journey you describe of drifting into Soviet style communism.

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  27. George Rebane Avatar


    This is an attempt to insert an image in a comment. I did this by snipping out the appropriate HTML code for inserting this image from an existing post. But that code references an image (e.g. this one) that I had previously uploaded to TypePad during posting the related piece. Am not sure how a reader would do that ‘from the outside’.

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  28. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, no one has yet gone into “Soviet style communism”, and I’m not sure that this is the only destination form of communism that total socialism (see my RR pieces on this) would evolve into. There may, of course, be a revolution inserted into such a path somewhere – let’s keep our eyes on Greece since they have traveled far on socialism’s road.
    Your arguments like this are of a consistent form – ‘If it hasn’t happened yet, then it’s unreasonable to make the case that it will happen.’ For more cogent examples, we can also examine the post-WW2 evolutions of Bulgaria, Rumania, Yugoslavia, Albania,… in their rapid spiral to communism.
    The exceptional standouts were Finland and Austria. Both resisted the direct path to communism because they had witnessed and successfully fought off its barbaric caress. But their soft socialisms have put them into quandries similar to the other European, especially the Nordics’, economies – as their social programs continue to consume their attainable GDPs.
    But then, we’ve sung that song before on these pages. Until the splat, you and yours always like the cool breeze and carefree feeling of weightlessness. A timely discussion as we head into this weekend.

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  29. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    This was your observation regarding the lamestream media.
    “They see the 75 year atrocities of Soviet communism as a grand experiment that went wrong and needs to be repeated, and this time correctly.”
    Doesn’t that mean that they actually desire a “Soviet communism” governance for Europe. Let’s be specific. Do you believe the UK Guardian, who I’m sure would qualify as a lamestream media, wishes for Europe to become Soviet style Communistic countries?

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  30. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    To make it simple, list a few of the media outlets that you had in mind when you made this statement.
    “The west European press has been a leftwing organ since before the Bolshevik revolution. Anything collectivist is looked upon kindly. They see the 75 year atrocities of Soviet communism as a grand experiment that went wrong and needs to be repeated, and this time correctly.”

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  31. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, not at all. Please reread my 213pm comment. No one wants to go back to Stalinistic communism. That was communism done wrong, and every socialist admits that save, perhaps, some Russian dinosaurs receiving pensions. Done right, the new communism will be as Marx and Engels envisioned it. (I can’t believe I’m explaining this to you.)

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  32. George Rebane Avatar

    Paul, this is getting ridiculous. I do think you’re pulling my leg. In Great Britain alone –
    Daily
    The Morning Star – now connected to the Communist Party of Britain, formerly the Daily Worker.
    News Line – from the Workers Revolutionary Party.
    The Guardian – Founded in 1821, it is now owned by the Scott Trust, via the Guardian Media Group.
    The Independent – Launched in 1986 and owned by Alexander Lebedev
    Weekly
    New Statesman – independent
    The New Worker – from the New Communist Party.
    The Socialist – from the Socialist Party of England and Wales.
    Socialist Worker – from the Socialist Workers Party.
    Tribune – Labour movement newspaper, with Labour Party connections
    The Weekly Worker – published by the Communist Party of Great Britain (PCC).
    Fortnightly
    Freedom – from Freedom Press.
    Scottish Socialist Voice – from the Scottish Socialist Party.
    Solidarity – from the Alliance for Workers’ Liberty.
    Monthly
    The Catalyst – from the Solidarity Federation.
    Fight Racism, Fight Imperialism – from the Revolutionary Communist Group.
    Labour Left Briefing – produced by Labour Party members.
    New Internationalist – independent
    Resistance – from the Anarchist Federation.
    Revolution – from the British section of Revolution
    Socialist Appeal – from the British section of the International Marxist Tendency
    Socialist Campaign Group News – connected with the Socialist Campaign Group of the Labour Party.
    Socialist Review – from the Socialist Workers Party.
    Socialist Standard – from the Socialist Party of Great Britain.
    Socialism Today – from the Socialist Party of England and Wales.
    Workers Power – from Workers’ Power.
    “Gagged!” – from the South Wales Anarchists.
    World Revolution – from the International Communist Current[1]

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  33. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    OK I get it.
    The only one of these that’s remotely mainstream is the Guardian and and the Independent. The rest are admittedly left wing sources that hardly reach anyone beyond their cordial followers. To be precise then you believe the UK Guardian and the Independent subscribe to your scenario and desire that Britain become a soviet style communist nation. How about the BBC?

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  34. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, if you mention that I’m interpreting ANYONE wanting to go back to a Soviet style communism, then this thread is over.

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  35. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George, the Steve Wynn character is a ghost. I can’t seem to find him in any documents of public record. I think he is a sock puppet. These lefty folks are quite slanderous aren’t they?

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  36. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Then please clarify what you meant when you wrote this
    “They see the 75 year atrocities of Soviet communism as a grand experiment that went wrong and needs to be repeated, and this time correctly.”
    I’m just trying to get a better understanding of your view.

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  37. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Let’s see what happens with a straight post from Flickr.
    In FB this will produce an image thumbnail.
    I think all houses should be paid for in full up front. None of this namby pamby mortgage stuff. That is not a balanced budget at all.
    Ooops, wrong cut and paste.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/keachie/sets/72157627312609968/detail/

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  38. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Flickr Action Share menu give me the following code:

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