Rebane's Ruminations
July 2011
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George Rebane

Oslo110722 So now Norway has Anders Behring Breivik, its own equivalent of America’s Timothy McVey.  We read that the 32 year old farmer has killed almost one hundred people, personally murdering eighty some by shooting each of them at close range.  He also posted a YouTube video (now removed) of himself declaring his terror rampage before first setting off a bomb in the center of Oslo, and then going out to a nearby island, disguised as a policeman, to shoot the youth gathered there.

We read that Breivik was a declared Christian “extreme right winger with anti-Muslim sentiments.”  He was disturbed by what he saw as the permissive multiculturalism that has given rise to the Islamic enclaves throughout Europe including his native Norway.  Apparently this attack was in planning for almost two years, and was to serve as a dramatic call for European “martyrs” to begin some sort of violent pushback of Islam and Marxism that he has described in a long “compendium/book” he titled 2083 – A European Declaration of Independence.  I have not read it, but it can be downloaded from google docs here.

What we do know is that he ordered six tons of fertilizer from which he presumably made at least one bomb, and that the island massacre lasted 90 minutes before the Norwegian SWAT team finally arrived after 40 minutes, and then took another 50 minutes to stop the killing.  Apparently there was not a single law-abiding gun on the island that could have saved lives during that interminably long killing spree.

It is hard for me to conclude that this was the act of a sane individual.  Perhaps he offers an explanation in his compendium as to how he thought that his terror would start some kind of spontaneous attack on people of non-European cultures.  But to a sane person, no matter his politics or sentiments about Islam and western culture, this act did nothing to achieve his declared end.  In fact, I think, like Timothy McVey, this was the most horrifically inappropriate and misguided use of violence that Breivik could have conceived – an assessment I cannot lay at the feet of Islamic terrorists who have so far used worldwide terror effectively to advance their ends.

Now we await for the investigation to reveal the complete and, perhaps, a different story about Breivik.  I am saddened that so many people had to die at the hand of a twisted individual, especially one who claims to be a defender of western culture.

Your thoughts?

[update]  One question that occurs during events like these is ‘to what extent is this a canary in the mine?’  It is usually at the edges that society first shows that something with it is awry.  The mentally or economically frail begin to visibly protest existing conditions, and then start to act like outlaws.  Wealthy and advanced societies usually react positively if not always in a timely manner to such signs.

If shopkeepers begin reporting that bread is being stolen from their shops, and this becomes more widespread, then an enlightened collective would be better served by finding the cause of the problem instead of just hiring more police.  If ill-schooled students graduate in greater numbers when more money is put into education, then an enlightened collective would conclude that there might be other factors at work than lack of funds.

But here we come into a conundrum – ascribing cause.  Upon reflection philosophers and scientists have come to understand that cause is ascriber-specific.  People with different belief systems, knowledge, intelligence, experience, and data can look at an event and ascribe markedly (wildly?) different precursors that were its actual cause.  To the extent that a culture and/or ideology are shared by a society, they will tend to interpret things in a more like manner and come to similar conclusions as to cause.  And the opposite is also true as we witness every day (and also on these pages).

So, in Norway was this madman a harbinger, a fraying edge that declares existence of a deeper problem in Norway’s European population?  What caused him to go on his murderous rampage, and what should the Norwegians do to minimize the likelihood of such future occurrences?

(In a future post I am planning to do a piece on causality that may help in the discussion of events like this and broader aspects of assessing public policy.  The effort always is to promote complete, clear, and concise communication on these pages.  Hard duty.)

Posted in , , ,

153 responses to “Norway Terror (updated)”

  1. George Rebane Avatar

    BonnieM, you’re helping to keep the decorum in these comments. Thank you for the kind words.
    DougK, “confessed killer is anti-tax” must be a new piece of information. Don’t recall any mention of that in his rant or the news reports. Being a camp for indoctrinating kids in religion and what the US Constitution says doesn’t make the Jesus Camp politically oriented. Maybe we understand political orientation differently.

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  2. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    “the guy is really really pissed his Government is giving his country or at least half of it to the muslims”
    Dixon, you use of exaggeration really reveals your prejudice to come up with statistics that are no where near the truth for the purpose of making some kind of point. Where did you get that 50% number? This statement without even a remote foundation of truth is not just deceptive and untrue it is also delusional and ignorant.
    This is from Statistics Norway website that shows the total immigration numbers to be slightly over 12%. Other information states that the total of Muslim immigrants is between 3 and 5%.
    http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/00/00/10/innvandring_en/
    Norway’s immigrant population consists of people from 215 different countries and independent regions. They have come as refugees, as labour migrants, to study, or to join family living in Norway.
    * Immigrants and those born in Norway to immigrant parents constitute 600 900 persons or 12.2 per cent of Norway’s population. Broken down by region, 287 000 have a European background, 210 000 persons have a background from Asia, 74 000 from Africa, 19 000 from Latin-America and 11 000 from North America and Oceania.
    * The majority of the immigrants are from Poland, Sweden, Germany and Iraq. Thirty-four per cent of the immigrants have Norwegian citizenship………….

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  3. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    “Maybe we understand political orientation differently.”
    Most likely so. I’m sure you are still telling everyone that the Tea Party is not a political movement, and therefore has no intentions of affecting elections.
    We do live in different linguistic universes.

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  4. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Paul, you provide facts and Dixon provided factless bigotry, the type used to inflame and incite and his rants on this topic read like Anders Behring Breivik’s manafesto.

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  5. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    The American Revolution was begun and supported by less than 25% of the population. It doesn’t take much to destabilize a small country let alone a large one. You can quote all the statistics you want but I seem to recall you lefty stat fans are always bemoaning the 2% who are the “rich” here in America. So keep quoting. Oh, and as far as bigotry, you all are top performers against anyone with more than you. Or is that envy?

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  6. paul emery Avatar
    paul emery

    Todd
    You seem to support Dixon’s claim that Norway is 50% Muslim Yes or no?

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  7. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Never addressed that so I can’t say. My guess is the total population is mostly Norwegian of Nordic descent and the rest are immigrants.

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  8. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Todd, it is concern about where the country is headed. You seem to be in favor of a country in which those who corral the most dollars, rule everything, by means of controlling the legislatures and other elections, and then the legislative process itself. By controlling those processes, they guarantee themselves short term gains, at the expense of a sound country for the long run.
    You can certainly argue that the average American consumers, by buying up all the China non union schlock that WalMart and Home Depot could arrange to have produced, caused their own demise. I would argue, however, that only a madman hands a six year old a loaded gun. So, while the average American consumer is unable to make wise choices, neither are those who have garnered more scheckles than average. We are living proof that economic short term success is no proof of wisdom for organizing intelligently for the long haul.
    I guess it will take one of the Mars rovers’ cameras suddenly confronting a space suited figure bearing a Red Chinese flag and a “No Trespassing” sign to finally wake you folks up.

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  9. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    The essence of politics in this country is to offer an interpretation of what the Constitution means.
    ~ Douglas Keachie ~

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  10. paul emery Avatar
    paul emery

    Todd, why are you critical me of me when I was only trying to set the record straight after Dixon’s exaggeration of the Muslim population in Norway. He was either ignorant of the truth or wants to invent his own to match his distorted view of the world.

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  11. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, come on now, nowhere did Dixon say that 50% of Norway was Muslim. He was using hyperbole of “giving half the country” to Muslims to make a point of Norway’s lax immigration laws. Try to find a better common understanding of English usage, else you’re just adding gratuitous heat.
    DougK, nowhere have I stated that the tea party movement is NOT political. It is very much political and with a very focused agenda that promotes candidates of any party that conform to its four principles. It is not a political party.
    Am still puzzling on your “essence of politics” statement – in principle I like it.

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  12. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Todd, previous comment directed at you was in ref your 7:59 comment. Two others intervened before I hit post.

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  13. paul emery Avatar
    paul emery

    George
    Dixon was very clear about what he meant to say “the guy is reallt really pissed his Government is giving his country or at least half of it to the muslims.”
    The question is why did Dixon choose to make such a huge exaggeration to enhance his argument? Can you help us out here Dixon. The total Muslim population is closer to 5%.

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  14. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    George, here’s the anti tax AND a Tea Party USA connection. You people still haven’t learned that sending Keachie off on the hunt can have unintended consequences.
    “Anders Behring Breivik, detained in the deadly Oslo bombing and shooting that has left 92 dead, has links to Norway’s anti-government political group the Progress Party, according to the LA Times:
    On social media forums, he claimed to be a disgruntled former member of Norway’s anti-tax, small-government Progress Party, according to the Norwegian Nettavisen news service. His postings reflected strong anti-Islamic views and a deep skepticism about the mixing of different international cultures.
    As if turns out, Tim Phillips, President of the Tea Party group Americans for Prosperity, spoke at a Progress Party event in 2010. According to an article published in the Norweigen paper Aftenposten on April 24th, 2010:
    Phillips was invited by the Progress Party leadership to talk about grassroots organizing. But he talked mostly about how his organization is fighting for a weaker central government and lower taxes, to health reform and climate change.
    Moreover, he spoke regularly Democrats in the U.S. as the “left side”.
    http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/638969/koch-funded_tea_party_heavyweight_tim_phillips_spoke_at_norweigan_killer%5C%27s_political_party_event/

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  15. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Americans for Properity is connected to the Tea Parties as an ardent supporter, most likely many are members of both.
    http://www.americansforprosperity.org/041509-taxpayer-tea-parties-update

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  16. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Claiming that Tea Parties are not political, that many different groups are all “different” and therefore not heads of the same monster, is as disingenuous as dressing as a policeman and telling people you’ve come to “help.”

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  17. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Wow, the regressives sure are a fearful bunch.
    (removed for telling the truth)

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  18. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK, I guess my 856AM comment about the tea party movement was not worthy of consideration or went right over your head. And I don’t have a clue on the point you’re trying to make in your 911AM and following comments.
    PaulE, you have now identified and become victim to an even a more seminal problem in the attempt to fix the radical polarization from which America suffers. It is beginning to sound as if Urdu and Swahili speakers are debating each other in their native tongues.

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  19. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Paul, here’s another insight into Dixon’s mind.
    Dixon posted above why he thought Anders Behring Breivik went to the youth summer camp and shot and killed the children.
    Dixon posted the following:
    “maybe that he figured out how really evil they are and his camp target was a indoctrnation camp for socialists that have allowed in the muslims – this loss national identity is spreading all over Europe as the EU takes away each countries soveriegnty to control its own borders and citizens”.
    So Dixon thinks the summer “camp target was a indoctrnation camp for socialists that have allowed in the muslims”.
    Paul, this is some real sick stuff and facts sure seem to mean nothng to Dixon.

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  20. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    George, I was referencing your comment which seem to indicate you didn’t think he had an “anti tax connection. I not only provided the connection, I sealed it with a connection to the USA antitax groups, which daisy chain right back to the beloved Tea Party in all its incarnations. You need to lift your hood up a little higher to see what’s going on.

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  21. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    “It is not a political party.”
    “one and a half million is $1,000,000.50”
    Again, we live in different linguistic universes. The Amerindians discovered Columbus on the beach, too. He didn’t discover them.

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  22. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    George, Keach will ignore everything that gets in the way of his argument, which is typically just empty rhetoric thrown into the fan.

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  23. Ben Emery Avatar

    Just listened to some news coverage of Norway and their reaction to events. 11% of their roughly 5 million population are immigrants and just under half of immigrants are Muslim. The suspect has a 1500 page manifesto and belonged to the fundamentalist right wing of the nation and religion, much like the Taliban and al-qaeda. I have had many friends/ acquaintances over the years from the Scandinavian countries and almost nobody attends church services in this region of the world but fund the churches through their taxes. They see it as a social good.
    My earlier post was about worldviews and how to deal with issues. The overall point was those small few, right wing fundamental extremists, who want to make it a holy war do it at the expense of the rest of the planet and future generations. The people and all of the government officials I heard interviewed were taking the worldview that this event/ opinion is a very very small minority of their population and needs to be handled through the judicial and mental health systems.

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  24. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    What is wrong in correcting the record of a careless and misleading contributor? Don’t we have to be somewhat responsible for the veracity of our statements? You seem the believe that in this case it’s not important to be truthful if it assists in expressing an opinion that you support.
    Dixon, at least you could try to set the record straight by supporting the truthfulness of your statement or explaining what you meant by misleading readers.

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  25. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, we do indeed have responsibility for the veracity of our statements. My observation of your understanding Dixon was meant to highlight that, given we are all people of goodwill, there seems to be an ideological taint to how we interpret each other’s language. And I pointed out to you an obvious example of your misunderstanding what Dixon said. I venture that no other conservative commenter here misunderstood Dixon’s “half the country” usage.

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  26. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    See Paul it’s your fault.
    Paul it’s you “misunderstanding what Dixon said”. But how can anyone that is being truthful misunderstand what Dixon said as his factless statment is there in black and white?
    Well Paul, it’s simple and you reaaly need to stop the insane idea of wanting facts behind the claims beiong made here, the facts just get in the way.
    Yo see Paul, as George just explained, if you were a “conservative commenter here” you would have undstood the Dixon’s “half the country” claim was ment to “hignlight”.
    Facts as a basis for ones posts and claims are not needed if one is a “conservative commenter here” Paul.
    Paul, it’s your fault, facts are not part of the discussion.

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  27. George Rebane Avatar

    In the ever fervent desire to encourage more light than heat, I have just posted some thoughts – ‘Discussing Norway and Breivik’ – that might be of help.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2011/07/discussing-norway-and-breivik.html

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  28. Bonnie M Avatar
    Bonnie M

    George…See what a good job you’ve done with your website? Like the Union newspaper, you’ve attracted those who have a lot of junk to peddle. On the subject of the political youth group in Hitler’s Germany. I knew people who lived there during that period. They were afraid of the “Brown Shirt” youth who behaved similar to our gangs here…and caused lots of trouble. The Nazi’s represented the National Socialist labor party, just as the Socialist Communist labor party controlled Russia. If you go far right and far left you have the same thing…a totaliarian government. Most of the people on this blog who are being called “extreme right” are actually centrists with a more liberal outlook. They reject big government dictating and controlling everything in our lives. Those who claim to be liberal progressives obviously support a totalitarian type government with complete regulatory and taxation power over all our resources. It’s really very simple to see. And this too will pass, because you cannot reason with the totalitarian mind who knows it all and insists on forcing its will on everyone else. However, what goes around comes around…and life’s natural (law of cause and effect)circumstance is the only thing that gets their attention. As a human being, I don’t like having to go through our society’s spanking, but that’s where America’s at. Look at the big picture! Those at the helm of government imposing taxes for specific purposes, then stealing the money for other purposes and then wanting more. It’s against our Constitution’s law regarding no taxation without representation! What our government is doing, is no different than those despised investment scammers that were sent to prison. Is that too difficult to understand?

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  29. George Rebane Avatar

    Well said BonnieM. The only downer in all this is the historical fact that autocracy (from mild socialism to outright tyranny) is the most stable form of governance known. This means that once a society sinks into it, the people’s sufferings become worse until there is real hell to pay (all revolutions are not successful). And in every age autocracy abetted by technology was the more stable and longlasting. The advanced technology available to governments today makes this an horrific thought.

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  30. Mike Thornton Avatar

    And the Oslo Killer is STILL a politically motivated, right wing murderer, who was inspired, in part, by right wing regressives in the USA.

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  31. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Thornton is a former News Director at KVMR? his puts the Victorian Mountain Radio news slant in context.
    The left thinks the right is evil, while the right just thinks the left is wrong.

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  32. George Rebane Avatar

    Hang on GregG, MikeT promised to leave us again soon.

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  33. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Under a self definition, someone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian. A mad act by one person does not condemn the whole of Christianity. The left is trying to do this and like the shooter in Arizona who the left tried to claim was a righty, we will not let them be successful with the lie. Also, I am unaware of the Norwegian shouting Jesus when he was murdering those poor kids. I think the Muslim terrorists were shouting Allah or something weren’t they?

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  34. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    And then there’s the good Christians shooting and killing doctors that provide abortion services and the bombings of abortion services offices in the name of God. What do these good Christians shout?

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  35. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “And then there’s the good Christians shooting and killing doctors that provide abortion…”
    Nope!

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  36. Ben Emery Avatar

    Todd,
    Maybe you will begin to understand of how making blanket assertions of an entire faith is a dangerous and unfair game to play?
    I would make the argument that many who proclaim to be Christian are only in name but not in practice. The same goes for many who consider themselves Muslim. In the end it is not our job to judge whether or not someones faith is real or not.
    The parable that sums up the teachings of Christ for me. Mathew 25
    The Sheep and the Goats
    31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
    34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
    40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
    41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

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  37. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Well Steve, let us see. Hmmm. Two abortion doctors murdered by two bad people and twenty million children murdered in the womb by secular, non religious doctors. Hmmm.

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  38. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    No BenE you missed the whole point in my post regarding Christianity. You are trying to condemn all Christians and we only condemn those Muslim terrorists themselves. I pointed out the Norwegian killer did not shout Jesus while murdering like the Muslim terrorists do when murdering or chopping off heads (thereby confirming the religious reason). You write too many words but have no comprehensive skills.

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  39. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Yikes… So Todd now tries to justify the shooting and killings of doctors that provide abortion services and the bombings of abortion services offices and also claims to be a Christian.
    Doesn’t get more disturbing that this.

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  40. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    SteveE, you really are out there. What a hoot!

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  41. George Rebane Avatar

    I did not see Todd justifying any killings, only bringing their relative frequencies to our attention. But apparently these straightforward concepts are not broadly accessible. Ane the relative frequencies of such killings, fueled by the Christian faith versus the Islamic faith, speak volumes.
    Let no one denigrate the strength and depth of Islam. In recent centuries no religion save Islam has been able to inspire adherents by the thousands to willingly sacrifice their lives in the service of their god. They sign up and stand in long lines to do what their scripture prescribes in the full faith of its promised reward.
    The little minds, that try to equate Islam to Christianity in its power to inspire action, have no understanding of what the west faces as its ramparts are breached. Let me put it directly – politically correct socialist slogans will not save what we have built, and what so many of us still cherish about western civilization.

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  42. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    You are correct George. I have yet to see a Christian put a bomb vest on and go into a daycare center. Enos has no way to do a moral equivalency so he hits the gutter as usual.

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  43. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    You go from:
    “Under a self definition, someone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian. A mad act by one person does not condemn the whole of Christianity.”
    to:
    “You are trying to condemn all Christians and we only condemn those Muslim terrorists themselves.”

    but you are not accepting of:
    “Under a self definition, someone who claims to be a Muslim is a Muslim. A mad act by one person does not condemn the whole of Islam.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    and suddenly it is not the act of a madman, instead the terrorism is causally linked to the religion claimed by the individual.
    “And the relative frequencies of such killings, fueled by the Christian faith versus the Islamic faith, speak volumes.”

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  44. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    The guy is a nut! If he calls himself Napoleon, does that make him Napoleon?

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  45. Ben Emery Avatar

    Todd,
    It is you that totally missed the point, those from any religion who perform any terrorist acts are not behaving in a spiritual path or manner. My point was this man is mentally ill much like those who acted on 9/11. They are misled followers of a cult who believe they are martyrs.
    Please point where I condemn all Christianity or where I mention Christianity in a negative light at all? I have been saying treat this act as a crime not a religious holy war since my first post. It has been you that made the argument that since day one a jihad against infidels has been taking place. Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are Abrahamadic religions who have bloody pasts and texts that we can point to as proof of being bad. I choose to believe in the peaceful and uniting messages of all religions not focus on the negative fear the other messages.
    Your remarks from my first post
    “What is interesting to me regarding comments like BenE’s is his total lack of history. PaulE is the same. The Arabs have conquered where there are through force and intimidation and most of their land mass was secured within 50 years of Mohammed’s death in the 600’s. They have been in a perpetual jihad against all infidels since day one.”
    Then your last post you put
    “You are trying to condemn all Christians and we only condemn those Muslim terrorists themselves.”

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  46. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    So George rants:
    “The little minds, that try to equate Islam to Christianity in its power to inspire action, have no understanding of what the west faces as its ramparts are breached. Let me put it directly – politically correct socialist slogans will not save what we have built, and what so many of us still cherish about western civilization”.
    Seems George has only 1,499 pages more to write to match the length of Anders Behring Breivik 1,500 page rant. Georges’s rant above is an almost exact match to Anders Behring Breivik rantings.

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  47. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    On to the holy war! To the ramparts of Malta! The gates of Vienna! Rise the sword and shield of Christendom to the new Crusade.
    Here’s how you can participate in saving western civilization: you can join the Knights Templar, the Knights of St. John, the Knights Santiago, or you could become a Teutonic Knight (just like our Livonian forefathers) and protect the village from pagans in the east.
    See each one of us can play a role!

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  48. Ben Emery Avatar

    I was talking with some local elected officials and they let me know that they are tempted to come on to these blogs to post but in reality the people who run them are so insignificant in the decision making of our world it would be a wast of time. After reading through this thread I am thoroughly convinced they were right.
    Good Luck with all the fear of the other and hopefully one day rumination regulars will realize we are all human beings living on a small planet together. Cooperation is the answer to the problems we face today not might makes right.

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  49. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF and SteveE, do either of you have any intent on discussing the issues I post on RR, or will your years long personal attacks and denigrations continue as the order of the day?

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  50. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    If you read my post above there are some very thoughtful counter-points being made.
    If we have to endure your labeling us as leftists, collectivists, Marxists, and idiots, you should have to endure us labeling you as a rightist, fascist, bigots and simpletons. If you allow personal attacks on Mike or Enos or Ben from Todd and Greg and Dixon It’s only fair. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
    I think Ben is entirely correct. Cooperation is the answer, but those who regularly post here are not a significant part of the solution. That’s why you are here.

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