Rebane's Ruminations
July 2011
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George Rebane

Oslo110722 So now Norway has Anders Behring Breivik, its own equivalent of America’s Timothy McVey.  We read that the 32 year old farmer has killed almost one hundred people, personally murdering eighty some by shooting each of them at close range.  He also posted a YouTube video (now removed) of himself declaring his terror rampage before first setting off a bomb in the center of Oslo, and then going out to a nearby island, disguised as a policeman, to shoot the youth gathered there.

We read that Breivik was a declared Christian “extreme right winger with anti-Muslim sentiments.”  He was disturbed by what he saw as the permissive multiculturalism that has given rise to the Islamic enclaves throughout Europe including his native Norway.  Apparently this attack was in planning for almost two years, and was to serve as a dramatic call for European “martyrs” to begin some sort of violent pushback of Islam and Marxism that he has described in a long “compendium/book” he titled 2083 – A European Declaration of Independence.  I have not read it, but it can be downloaded from google docs here.

What we do know is that he ordered six tons of fertilizer from which he presumably made at least one bomb, and that the island massacre lasted 90 minutes before the Norwegian SWAT team finally arrived after 40 minutes, and then took another 50 minutes to stop the killing.  Apparently there was not a single law-abiding gun on the island that could have saved lives during that interminably long killing spree.

It is hard for me to conclude that this was the act of a sane individual.  Perhaps he offers an explanation in his compendium as to how he thought that his terror would start some kind of spontaneous attack on people of non-European cultures.  But to a sane person, no matter his politics or sentiments about Islam and western culture, this act did nothing to achieve his declared end.  In fact, I think, like Timothy McVey, this was the most horrifically inappropriate and misguided use of violence that Breivik could have conceived – an assessment I cannot lay at the feet of Islamic terrorists who have so far used worldwide terror effectively to advance their ends.

Now we await for the investigation to reveal the complete and, perhaps, a different story about Breivik.  I am saddened that so many people had to die at the hand of a twisted individual, especially one who claims to be a defender of western culture.

Your thoughts?

[update]  One question that occurs during events like these is ‘to what extent is this a canary in the mine?’  It is usually at the edges that society first shows that something with it is awry.  The mentally or economically frail begin to visibly protest existing conditions, and then start to act like outlaws.  Wealthy and advanced societies usually react positively if not always in a timely manner to such signs.

If shopkeepers begin reporting that bread is being stolen from their shops, and this becomes more widespread, then an enlightened collective would be better served by finding the cause of the problem instead of just hiring more police.  If ill-schooled students graduate in greater numbers when more money is put into education, then an enlightened collective would conclude that there might be other factors at work than lack of funds.

But here we come into a conundrum – ascribing cause.  Upon reflection philosophers and scientists have come to understand that cause is ascriber-specific.  People with different belief systems, knowledge, intelligence, experience, and data can look at an event and ascribe markedly (wildly?) different precursors that were its actual cause.  To the extent that a culture and/or ideology are shared by a society, they will tend to interpret things in a more like manner and come to similar conclusions as to cause.  And the opposite is also true as we witness every day (and also on these pages).

So, in Norway was this madman a harbinger, a fraying edge that declares existence of a deeper problem in Norway’s European population?  What caused him to go on his murderous rampage, and what should the Norwegians do to minimize the likelihood of such future occurrences?

(In a future post I am planning to do a piece on causality that may help in the discussion of events like this and broader aspects of assessing public policy.  The effort always is to promote complete, clear, and concise communication on these pages.  Hard duty.)

Posted in , , ,

153 responses to “Norway Terror (updated)”

  1. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I did a post yesterday and used news reports that some Islamic group claimed credit then that was tossed when they caught this fellow. I know the loony left is already trying to claim the “Christian right” is somehow connected to this nut. No one I am familiar with claiming to be a Christian would murder so my conclusion is anyone can clai to be anything. Also, the press will begin to try and claim all people on the “right” are now suspect because this nut says he was from the right. This tragedy of mayhem and murder has been done by a person who must be insane. I pray for all the victims and if I could go back in time and help them I would.

    Like

  2. Russ Steele Avatar

    There are no concealed carry permits allow in Norway. According to Wikipedia:
    The owner must always have a good reason to bring the weapon to a public place. Such reasons include transportation to a range or hunting area, transportation for repairs, or for maintenance and hobby activities.
    During transportation, the weapon must be empty and concealed, but not worn on the body, and under the constant supervision of the owner. This applies equally to replicas, air guns and decommissioned firearms.

    Many report say the killer had automatic weapons, which are banned from civilian ownership in Norway. Yet, he managed to get an automated weapon.
    Once again, gun control has proven to be useless, if not a contributing factor to this tragic event. Since defensive personal guns are not allowed in Norway, the shooter knew he would not have to take any cover, thus allowing unfettered access to his victims.

    Like

  3. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    This was not the act of a Christian… see the 10 Commandments. No doubts that this was the act of an insane individual.
    It will be more fruitful to learn of the experiences/world view which led to such a state of mind.
    I need to get my CCW.

    Like

  4. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Interesting and very telling that George and others here use a lot of their comments to discuss gun rights and gun laws.
    Russ’s post is all about the gun laws in Norway and gun control… a so VERY telling look into Russ’s mind and what he thinks is the critical issue of this tragic event.
    Let’s see… didn’t this all start with a massive bombing?
    I have been reading parts of Anders Behring Breivik’s 1,500 page rant and a lot of it reads like it was copied for this blog.
    PS: I’m a VERY strong supporter of guns rights in the USA. I shoot at the range a number of times a month, I’m a former deputy sheriff and federal drug enforcement officer and have real world CCW experience.

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  5. Russ Steele Avatar

    Steve E,
    You wrote:
    I have been reading parts of Anders Behring Breivik’s 1,500 page rant and much it reads like it was copied for [from?] this blog.
    Before we buy into your BS accusation let us see some direct comparisons. I suggest you find some direct quotes in the Anders Behring Breivik “rant” and then show us where they appeared in Ruminations? We are waiting for you to stand behind your veiled smear of this blog with some facts.

    Like

  6. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Hey Russ do your own reading of Anders Behring Breivik’s 1,500 page rant. But it’s mostly full of:
    Anti-Muslim, anti Islamic rants, the need to stop multiculturalism, Marxism and the socialists that are destroying the county and Europe, a call to take back Europe and take our country back… sound familiar?
    Russ, but you just keep posting about guns laws in Norway.

    Like

  7. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Russ he is posting this all over the other blogs as well. When he tells us he was a cop and a DEA agent he is simply fibbing. There is no proof in that and there is no proof he is a licensed planner here in California. I think we should simply apply the term master fibber to him. He has no employees and no land here that can be identified in the public record. I think he may be a ghost.

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  8. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Todd, not DEA. As I have said I’m a former federal drug enforcement officer. The feds have a number of agencies that address drugs, do some research.
    And as I have asked you before Todd:
    I’ll bet you $1,000 cash that what I say is true. You and I put up the cash and we give it to George to hold. I provide proof to George and I get your $1,000 cash… it’s that simple.
    So Todd… wull you back up your mouth?… I bet you don’t have the stones to back up your mouth. I have my $1,000 cash ready… let’s do this!

    Like

  9. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Bullhockey. Go read it for yourselves. It reads like a normal day on the Nevada County right wing blogosphere!

    Like

  10. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Steve F…. some of it reads like the Tea Party “take back OUR county” rants and then there is the simular use of violent terms to start a revolution and the need to stop the socialists and marxists.

    Like

  11. Dixon Cruickshank Avatar
    Dixon Cruickshank

    Sounds like in thought he was kinda on target – his methods to achieve them are not acceptable

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  12. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Well Todd, where’s your $1,000?

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  13. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    So many people have there land here held by trusts that they control, registered in other states, that reviewing the local tax rolls is practically worthless when attempting to identify the holdings of any individual.

    Like

  14. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Well Todd, where is your $1000? and would you like to make a side bet?

    Like

  15. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Dodger Todd is doing his dance again.

    Like

  16. Russ Steele Avatar

    Todd you have once again opened the door letting our local left lead us off the topic. They are so deft at changing the subject when they do not want to address the issues, so stopping opening the door for them. I could care less about what Enos was once, I am more interested in what he is now and his distorted views of the world. These side issue you keep bringing up just inhibit us for learning about the real Enos. Everyone, left and right, needs to stop cluttering up the comments with boring crap that is not relevant to the discussion.
    We all know what Steven Frisch is, now let’s get back to the issues of this post and let the left reveal themselves.

    Like

  17. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    By far the greatest terror threat the world faces is from deranged individuals.

    Like

  18. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, unless you differentiate individuals from the Maos, Stalins, Hitlers, and the ayatollahs, your profound statement appears to be a tautology.

    Like

  19. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    The issue is whether this is a deranged individual or a deranged individual who is part of a larger plot. The left is now trying to smear this blog and other conservative blogs by making the intimated and actually open claim there is complicity n philosophy. I simply attempt to point out the leftwing hypocrisy by their actual words and deeds. They then go into pack mentality (just like dogs) and attack me. I don’t really care if they attack me because they are not important to me. What is important to me is their impugning folks I care about and who share my philosophy. When I confront these liberal nuts with their own words and ask for them to back up their claims they never do and they attack (Alinsky tactics). I understand that our side is usually non confrontational when these nuts attack and I understand the desire to get along. But, like the old saying, don’t befriend a rattlesnake because he will bite you.
    The nut in Norway apparently acted alone and though he claims he is a Christian, he is not. The same nuts from the left, Frisch, Enos and DK, cry us a river when someone here says the terrorists of Islamic bent may be a example of Muslims, yet do not give the same leeway for a Christian. They are simply being outed by me for their total hypocrisy.

    Like

  20. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    So Todd, I have my $1,000 and the balls to back it up… so where’s your $1,000 and your balls “Dodger Todd”?

    Like

  21. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    uss, here’s some info on the gun laws in Norway:
    Arild Groven, secretary-general of the Norwegian Shooting Association, a sports shooting group, confirmed that Breivik had belonged to Oslo Pistol Club, one of 520 clubs in the association.
    He said the process of obtaining a handgun license for sports shooting was strict, requiring a safety certification and a police background check. Fully automatic weapons are illegal here he said.
    In California to purchase a handgun one must:
    Obtain a handgun safety certification
    and under go a background check. Fully automatic weapons are illegal here too (mostly).
    The real issues is there is a very big difference in culture between the USA and Norway on guns and violence. One just needs to check the data on the number of shootings and murders in the USA vs. Norway for a better uderstanding of this.

    Like

  22. Bonnie M Avatar
    Bonnie M

    Interesting discussion. Last night on the news (13)the reporter mentioned that the terrorist was angry with the labor unions (although he was a former union member) and the youth group he attacked were members of a union. So what are we to believe?

    Like

  23. Common Cents Avatar
    Common Cents

    Enos, your inability to contribute to meaningful dialogue is (again) well documented. Your words and action show the hate boiling inside you. You will never gain the control you so aggressively seek of others, therefore I fear your hatred will only grow.
    Should it shock us that Enos’ power trip/control complex led him into law enforcement?

    Like

  24. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    The following paints a clear picture and it sure has a number of similarities with some here in the USA:
    The police identified him as a right-wing fundamentalist Christian, while acquaintances described him as a gun-loving Norwegian obsessed with what he saw as the threats of multiculturalism and Muslim immigration.
    A police official, Roger Andresen, said at a televised news conference. “What we know is that he is right wing and a Christian fundamentalist.”
    Breivik claimed to be part of a small group that intends to “seize political and military control of Western European countries and implement a cultural conservative political agenda.”
    Breivik was also believed to have posted a video Friday calling for Christian conservatives in Europe to rise up violently as a modern-day version of the Crusades-era Knights Templar to save Europe from Islamic totalitarianism.
    He had been a member of the right-wing Progress Party, which began as an anti-tax protest and has been stridently anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim. Breivik quit the party in 2006, apparently disappointed by the party’s move toward the center… does this sound familiar?
    “This is the Norwegian equivalent to Timothy McVeigh,” the right-wing American who blew up a government building in Oklahoma City in 1995, said Marcus Buck, a political scientist at the University of Tromso in northern Norway. “This is right-wing domestic terrorism.

    Like

  25. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    George’s update above states:
    “What CAUSED HIM to go on his murderous rampage, and what should the Norwegians do to minimize the likelihood of such future occurrences”
    “What CAUSED HIM to go on his murderous rampage”… so that’s the question that needs to be asked?
    It’s like a guy that beats his wife and then says to the cops… she caused me to do it.
    It’s like saying… “what should beaten wives do to minimize the likelihood of such future occurrences”
    Yikes, is this a telling statement from George that shows how he looks at this tragic event.

    Like

  26. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    This fits my expectations; the loony left around here is once again trying to tar the folks they love to hate with a wide brush dipped in far away blood.
    I guess the Norwegian bachelor farmers grow differently in the home country than they do in Lake Wobegone.
    Far right wing is something different in Norway than in the US, and IMHO none of the right wing bloggers in Nevada County even make it to “far right”. One thing I found to be incredible was that it was a liberal political party summer camp that was hit. Not Scouts, or the equivalent of a Boy’s or Girl’s club, or something regional where all beliefs mix. A fun political getaway for the younger set. It sometimes take me aback how un-American non-American european customs are.
    I can’t imagine sending my kid to a political party’s camp, can you?
    How quickly the local left forgets the left wing nutcase in Arizona. Mental illness is an equal opportunity affliction.

    Like

  27. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveE, I don’t know how much longer we can support your tutoring requirements. Of course the prime question arising from this is to identify an operative cause for the behavior in order to come up with a reasonable policy of remediation and prevention of future such occurrences.
    If your ilk does not understand this, then you really don’t belong here to discuss such issues. However, there are countless other blogs, local and national, that will welcome such wisdom and provide a supportive home for it. Here you are again becoming a source of heat without light.

    Like

  28. Russ Steele Avatar

    Greg,
    They forgot because he was not a right wing nutcase. He was just mentally ill, as I am will to bet a lunch that Anders Behring Breivik will also be declared mentally ill.

    Like

  29. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    “The nut in Norway apparently acted alone and though he claims he is a Christian, he is not.”
    So if this is the case, those who claim they are Muslims and commit terrorists acts, are also, “not Muslims.” Your logic would dictate this to be true.

    Like

  30. George Rebane Avatar

    DougK, check your reasoning. Muslim terrorists are actively recruited, blow themselves and others up in hordes numbering now in the high hundreds, attacks breaching multiple decades, launched by well-funded and led religious organizations citing scriptual commission, with detailed public declarations of intent and objectives, and with their acts subsequently celebrated and honored by millions of co-religionists.
    Did you and SteveE take the same curriculum in reasoning and logic?

    Like

  31. Dave Cranfield Avatar
    Dave Cranfield

    I received an email from my cousin in Oppdahl, Norway this afternoon. All in Norwegian text. Oppdahl is about 400 KM north of Oslo. My mother frequently spoke Norwegian around our house when we were kids and my sister and I sort of picked up the language. Between my sister and I, we managed to (hopefully) make a sensible translation.
    As received.
    Kjære David
    Den forferdelige hendelser av fredag ettermiddag har rystet oss alle Selv om vi forblir i Oppdahl, langt vekk fra åstedet, er landet vårt i sorg. Det er nå søndag kveld og gatene i Oppdahl er fortsatt i live med mennesker, sammen med mange stearinlys til minne om våre falne borgere. Takk for at du tenker på Kurt, jentene og I. Vi håper du og Helene kommer til Norge og besøke oss snart. Love, Anna
    Translated?: Dear David The horror of events on Friday afternoon have us all shook up. Even though we are in Oppdahl, a great distance from the scene, our country mourns. It is Sunday night and the roads in Oppdahl have many people on them with lit candles to memorialize our (dead?) citizens. Thank you for remembering Kurt, the daughters and I. We hope you and Helene will visit us in Norway soon. Love, Anna.
    If there are any Norseman out there who can make a better translation, please let me know.

    Like

  32. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Douglas Keachie Said:
    “So if this is the case, those who claim they are Muslims and commit terrorists acts, are also, “not Muslims.” Your logic would dictate this to be true.”
    Tell me you know better Douglas?
    “The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called ‘hypocrites’ and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.”
    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

    Like

  33. Dixon Cruickshank Avatar
    Dixon Cruickshank

    Interesting discussion. Last night on the news (13)the reporter mentioned that the terrorist was angry with the labor unions (although he was a former union member) and the youth group he attacked were members of a union. So what are we to believe? Bonnie
    maybe that he figured out how really evil they are and his camp target was a indoctrnation camp for socialists that have allowed in the muslims – this loss national identity is spreading all over Europe as the EU takes away each countries soveriegnty to control its own borders and citizens
    All I can think of, I can understand it though, the Brits feel it also.

    Like

  34. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    This is some real sick stuff by Dixon:
    “maybe that he figured out how really evil they are and his camp target was a indoctrnation camp for socialists that have allowed in the muslims”.
    WOW… now that’s some sick stuff to think and post.

    Like

  35. George Rebane Avatar

    Re Dixon’s 323PM comment. What Dixon here presents is a plausible line of reasoning that may have been in Breivik’s mind. Without pinning a truth value on that line reasoning, its use by Breivik is an explanation that should should not be dismissed until further evidence comes in. Through such analysis we begin to make progress in first looking into the minds of Norway’s ‘Breiviks’ (yes, there may be more out there), and then deciding how valid such propositions are, and then deciding what should be done about it.
    And now it appears Dixon nailed it, as corroborated by the latest report from Norway.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903461104576463592110417526.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories
    “WOW… now that’s some sick stuff to think and post.” And with such baseless pronouncements, I think most RR readers would be very interested to know how the SteveEs of the land would instead pursue such an investigation. In any event, thanks for the counterpoint.

    Like

  36. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    It’s really this simple.
    There is a big difference between talking about Breiviks’ possible own self motivations vs. making a statement about one’s own postion about the camp that was attacked.
    Dixon did not say it was Breiviks’ possible motivation. Instead Dixon said “maybe that he figured out how really evil they are and his camp target was a indoctrination camp for socialists that have allowed in the muslims”.
    It’s one thing to say it was Breiviks’ possible motivation, it’s a whole different thing for Dixion to say he thinks the camp was “really evil” and the “camp target was a indoctrination camp for socialists that have allowed in the muslims”.
    Two very different things. One talks about Breiviks’ possible motivations and the other takes a position on what the camp “is”. Dixon stated his positon about what he thinks the camp “is”.

    Like

  37. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    SteveE should simply go beat his gums on a blog that cares about his crap. The fact a country like Norway, terrorized by the Nazi’s during WW2 would produce some like this murderer is incredible. Also, to murder his fellow countrymen to prove a point shows he is a mentally ill nut. Enos is simply doing the Alinsky tactic og guilt by, in gthis case, not even association, to denigrate jis hated enemies, Christians and conservatives. This is a line from the WSJ article that cements Dixon’s words about the nut and tosses Enos view into the crapper. The political landscape of Norway is truly left, not right and they don’t even have a mainstream conservative party there. From the WSJ
    “Norway doesn’t have a mainstream far-right party.”
    So if they have no far right party they must have center and center left.

    Like

  38. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Todd said:
    “Norway doesn’t have a mainstream far-right party.”
    So if they have no far right party they must have center and center left.
    And they don’t like Israel.
    http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/boycott-israel.jpg

    Like

  39. George Rebane Avatar

    Is it only me, or do others also notice that the progressives have a lock on psychoanalysis? They all seem to know what we are really thinking regardless of what we say. And then they just blurt it out and tell everyone. Tough crowd to deal with.

    Like

  40. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    So it is official from the mouth of Todd, far-right and conservative are the same thing. Remember that for future reference.

    Like

  41. RL Crabb Avatar

    Yeah, George, but isn’t it fun to have total strangers tell you what you think? And it’s a lot cheaper than a shrink.

    Like

  42. Larry Wirth Avatar
    Larry Wirth

    Think I’ll wait a few days (or a few weeks) to form an opinion on this one. First ‘take,’ a nutter, A-Z, period. We won’t know his true motivations until more is in the can. Let’s revisit this conversation in a week or so, ok?

    Like

  43. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Gee, nothing has changed here!
    Christian “terrorist” goes on rampage and we see none of the hyperbolic rhetoric that we would have seem had he been Muslim.
    Not only that, but we get to hear what amounts to excuses and explanations of why the poor guy was basically “forced” to kill by the Muslim “threat”.
    Same old ridiculousness for the same old ridiculous!

    Like

  44. Russ Steele Avatar

    I see the left wing re-enforcements have arrived. Welcome back Mike.

    Like

  45. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I can now see in full force that liberalism is truly a mental disorder. George has it right. These leftwingers just can’t help themselves and keep telling us what we really think and believe. What a hoot!

    Like

  46. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    His 1,500-page manifesto lays it out. It shows he was following American bloggers and writers who have “warned” for years about the threat from Islam.
    From his manifesto it’s very clear he was deeply influenced by a small group of American bloggers and writers who have warned for years about the threat from Islam, lacing his 1,500-page manifesto with quotations from them, as well as copying multiple passages from the tract of the Unabomber.
    In the document he posted online, Anders Behring Breivik showed that he had closely followed the acrimonious American debate over Islam.
    His manifesto, which denounced Norwegian politicians as failing to defend the country from Islamic influence quoted Robert Spencer who operates the Jihad Watch Web site, 64 times and he cited other Western writers who shared his view that Muslim immigrants pose a grave danger to Western culture.

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  47. George Rebane Avatar

    It appears that no matter the source or how it’s twisted, Dixon’s assessment was correct. Breivik did use what he believed to be the Muslim encroachment of Norway as his reasoned basis for planning and carrying out attacks on those he thought responsible for the compromise of his homeland.
    Given that, what should be the next step for the Norwegian government and people? And what should, say, Denmark and Sweden do – both have been warned of similar dangers from Islamic terrorists and their own Breiviks?

    Like

  48. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    These days sending your kid to a fundamentalist summer camp is equivalent to sending them to a political camp.

    Like

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