Rebane's Ruminations
July 2011
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George Rebane

[This is the transcript of my bi-weekly KVMR commentary broadcast on 22 July 2011.]

Let’s talk a little bit about debt and taxes.  Listening to leaders from both parties, you get the opinion that if we don’t raise the debt limit – by August 2 or whenever – that the world’s economy is going to collapse.  More sober minds, honed by the logic practiced around a kitchen table, will tell you that this is not true.

Please consider – major lenders to the US government have been quietly reducing their loans to us, they’re scared that eventually we won’t be able to repay them.  And everyone in Washington knows that today we have more than enough federal revenues coming in to pay the interest on our existing debt.  We just have to tighten belts and prioritize our other domestic spending.

So how do our creditors and rating agencies look at this?  Today we are telling the world that we will default on our interest payments if we can’t borrow more money from our creditors, so that we can then give some of it back to them in interest payments.  And everyone knows that Washington has no plan to stop increasing our national debt – we just promise to borrow more and forever.

Now I don’t know about you, but if I were China I’d say this relationship has become insane, and is most certainly not sustainable.  The name Ponzi must be starting to echo in the halls of Beijing.  But the credit rating agencies – the gang that couldn’t figure out the mortgage market trainwreck back in 2007 – are again putting out more Wrong Way Corrigan pronouncements.  They tell us that if we do change our ways, and start spending within our means, and limit our debt to the current $14.3T, then they will consider the United States to be a bigger credit risk and downgrade our rating.  Go figger.

However, if we keep spending like drunkards on payday, and keep borrowing what we don’t have to spend, then they will maintain our pristine AAA credit rating, and things will somehow again be hunky dory.  Isn’t this exactly 180 degrees out of sync with reality?  America’s creditors seem to think so. But according to our politicians, we taxpayers are too dense to figure this out.

Speaking of paying taxes, our progressive friends are convinced that the country can do with much higher tax rates.  They point back to the Eisenhower 1950s when top marginal rates touched 94% which effectively had the government take almost all of what you earned after a certain amount.  Since the country was booming in the 50s, little minds inside the Beltway are saying, ‘Let’s do it again.’

Running nimble fingers over their calculators, they can see enough dollars flowing in to put a real dent into our projected deficits, without cutting too much into the spending that buys votes.  What these same politicians don’t know, or are not telling us, is that in the 1950s no one actually paid 94 cents of every dollar they earned after a certain amount.  Why?  Because at that time the threshold was so high that almost no one earned those dollars as straight income.  And those who could, had lots of opportunities to shelter their earnings so that it never reached the 94% trigger levels.

Today it’s completely different when we consider the tax rates we already pay, and the ones being proposed by big government mavens in Washington.  Dr Michael Boskin, professor of economics at Stanford, has run some numbers which tell us that in California we already pay a 44.1% marginal tax rate when we combine federal, state, and all the payroll deductions levied against our wages.  When the Bush tax cuts expire in 2013, that marginal rate will jump up to 58.4% for those earning $200K and couples earning $250K a year.

But we’re not done yet.  Using the President’s numbers, the Congressional Budget Office tells us that to cover the projected $841B deficit in 2016, will require all (yes, all) income taxes to increase by almost another third.  This will bring the “total combined marginal tax rate to 68.8%.”  In short, government will then take more than two of every three dollars that you earn above whatever limit they decide to impose.

According to the progressive mindset, such tax hikes aren’t supposed affect how hard we work, or how much we risk and earn.  To them, we are just little mindless squirrels on a treadmill, and we’ll run just as hard as ever, never mind how much we get to keep.  Now, is that the way it works in your world?

My name is Rebane, and I also expand on these and other themes in my Union columns, and on georgerebane.com where this transcript appears.  These opinions are not necessarily shared by KVMR.  Thank you for listening.

Posted in , ,

60 responses to “Climbing Mount DebtandTaxes”

  1. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    “When the Bush tax cuts expire in 2013, that marginal rate will jump up to 58.4% for those earning $200K and couples earning $250K a year.”
    And what percentage of the population might’en that be?
    And what is the average net worth of such individuals?
    Do you expect those individuals to be at risk for losing their last paid for residence?
    And for them to wind up living under the overpasses?
    They’ve had 10 years to make jobs with their tax cuts.
    Big fail.

    Like

  2. Ben Emery Avatar

    George Washington to Jimmy Carter = $900billion
    Reagan 8 years = $3 trillion
    George HW Bush 4 years = $1.5trillion
    Bill Clinton 8 years = $1.5trillion
    George W Bush 8 years = $6trillion
    Hmmm what changed over the last 30 years? Tax policies for the wealthy and large corporations along with our trade/ import tariff policies.
    Where was the republican debt ceiling outrage under Reagan, Bush and Bush who created $10.5trillion of our nations debt? Where were the Tea Party when the constitution was absolutely shredded under Bush?
    This is a partisan ideological manufactured debate to win an election despite it really hurting millions of Americans. Where is the democratic leadership pointing all this stuff out? They are handcuffed because they get their funding from the same huge corporations and wealthy businessmen/ women as do the republicans. This means they can’t speak out to loudly otherwise it will be smacking the hand that feeds their party and campaigns.

    Like

  3. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    By the way if one is going to count payroll, sales and use, property, special district, and user fees toward the marginal tax rate for all citizens, then Republicans and right wingers have to stop using the “half of the population does not even pay taxes” canard. The bottom half of our society most certainly does pay taxes, and in some cases those taxes meet or exceed tax rates on some of the highest wage earners.
    If I make $30,000 per year, and am living paycheck to paycheck, and pay 8% payroll taxes ($2400), and pay $800 per month for housing and 10% of my housing price is used to pay taxes for the property owner I rent from ($960), my remainder disposable income is $18,000.
    From that remaining $18,000 my single largest expense is transportation, which is almost 90% likely to be an automobile for which I must purchase gasoline at and average tax rate of 40% and average mileage of 25 mpg and average miles of 12,500 equals ($700) per year in fuel taxes.
    Of my remaining income of $16,250 almost 50% goes to purchasing items that are subject to sales tax ($650) and 15% goes to utilities that are subject to taxes ($245). the remaining 35% goes to services or food that are not subject to taxes at point of sale.
    That means with an income of $30K I am paying just shy of $5 K in taxes to support my society. That is a 17% tax rate.
    The same tax rate on someone making $250,000 per year would be $40K per year.
    I think that most people making $250K per year are paying more than $40K in taxes aggregately but it is a much lower percentage of their disposable income and has a disproportionately lower impact on them.
    So dump the “half the population does not even pay taxes” canard. It is a lie. Pure and simple.

    Like

  4. ryanL Avatar
    ryanL

    That means with an income of $30K I am paying just shy of $5 K in taxes to support my society. That is a 17% tax rate.
    Stop right there.
    Half of your calculation is based on ‘payroll taxes’, which I assume means SS and Medicare payment. You should be getting that back some day, or at least most of it, so that’s better thought of as paying into an annuity.
    In the case of Medicare, people pull far more out than they put in, SS depends on your individual circumstance, but my guess is that poorer people extract far more from SS than they invest. All this subsidizing should be offset against the taxes that you paid earlier.
    You shouldn’t be so eager to accuse people of lying. The real cost in taxes to an individual is quite a difficult calculation to make.

    Like

  5. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    OFF TOPIC REQUEST:
    George, how about a story/thread about the tragic events in Oslo.
    Information is now out that it wasn’t a terrorist jihadist… it was a terrorist fundamentalist Christian from the right that planned and made the attacks.

    Like

  6. John Galt Avatar

    Good but incomplete research Ben.
    You omitted the key info that the Democrats controlled the House and Senate for the signficant majority of your time frame.
    Carter had a Democratic controlled House and the Senate for all his 4 years.
    Reagan had a Democratic controlled House for all 8 years, and for 2 years of the Senate.
    Bush #1 had a Democratic controlled House and Senate for all his 4 years.
    Clinton had a Democratic controlled House and Senate for 2 of his 8 years.
    Bush #2 had a Democratic controlled House for 2 years and for 4 years of the Senate.
    Obama has had a Democratic controlled House 2 years, and a Senate for 3 years.
    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Presidents_and_control_of_Congress
    So During the debt increases, the Democrats have been the party in power the predominante majority of the time.
    In fact for the past 66 years, only 4 of them have had a Republican controlled President, House and Senate. (Source: Huffington Post–Gary Krouse)
    Regardless of who has been responsible for the debt in the past, it’s water under the bridge. We’re approaching the final straws that will break the Camel’s back–especially now that we’re hurling truckloads of straw upon its back.
    Sustainability shouldn’t only apply to harvesting fish and timber. It should also apply to federal spending.

    In summary, George is right, the global markets will be more receptive if the Republicans stand firm and correct our Federal Government’s unsustainable spending.

    Like

  7. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    The point I am maingk ryal is that the comparison George used of a 44% rate including every tax paid, and the common canard that half of Americans don’t pay taxes, is a lie.

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  8. George Rebane Avatar

    The point from the reader’s manual (not included) to this piece is that actual tax rates are higher than quoted, and will get higher still for EVERYBODY. Given this, conserveterians like me believe that will stifle wealth creation, because new wealth is created almost entirely at the margins. Collectivists don’t believe any of this, and seek control through the powerful ruse of keeping ignorant eyes focused on income inequality and other class warfare shibboleths.

    Like

  9. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    ryanL, Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes go right from the worker’s pocket into someone else’s pocket. It is a tax. There is no “getting it back” and you can’t legally opt out. If you live long enough, you may well be the one to get the money taken from someone else, but you have no title to anything.
    I’ve no doubt it will be means tested by the time I reach “retirement” age; both programs are unsustainable.

    Like

  10. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Most who say ‘half the country doesn’t pay’ are specific about that being Federal Income Tax, and the others, like Frisch’s caricature, are just ignorant. If you’re not paying on your 1040, none of your money is going towards the national debt or deficit, it’s just going into someone else’s pocket as a benefit.

    Like

  11. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    It’s going to take years to recover from the Bush 2 economic fiasco just as it too Clinton 8 years to turn things around from the Reagan-Bush disaster of trippling the national debt in 12 years. Not to be out done Bush 2 doubled it in 8 to contribute to the legacy. As history shows it takes a Democratic President to put us on the right track. Clinton left Bush 2 with a surplus that he squandered on giveaway tax cuts that did not create new jobs and left us with massive debt. Toss in a couple of unfunded endless wars ane you have the story plain and simple.
    Watch your wallet if the Repubs come to town.

    Like

  12. George Rebane Avatar

    Gosh, it’s almost as if JohnG had not posted his 0927 comment. Does that mean that the domed building at the other end of Pennsylvania Ave is just a hothouse for potted plants?

    Like

  13. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George, this documents he fact that Republican Presidents have historically shown they are not capable of the type of leadership it takes to guide a responsible economy. Blaming it on the Democrats is just making an excuse for weak leadership. The President has veto privileges over any budget….
    This is one of my favorite descriptions of the Reagan myth from Libertarian Harry Browne.
    http://harrybrowne.org/articles/Reagan%27sLegacy.htm
    “The only positive result of Reagan’s tenure was the change in the terms of political argument. Both liberals and conservatives had a vested interest in maintaining the fiction that Reagan was gutting the federal government. Conservatives wanted to point to this with pride, while liberals wanted to scream that the sky was falling. So both sides went along with the gag.,,,,,
    Conservatives like to blame the increase in government on the Democratic Congress. But Presidents have the power of veto.
    Pens are cheap. A President can sign thousands of vetoes. Unless his opposition can muster a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress, nothing can be forced on him.
    The determining factor is whether the President has the will to reduce government. If he does, no one can stop him. “

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  14. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    I could give you about a thousand examples of front line republicans, libertarians and media commentators saying that the bottom 50% do not pay taxes, which is their strategy for making Americans believe it is true. And you are Right Greg, every one of them is ignorant.

    Like

  15. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, Harry Browne’s 2004 anti-Reagan rant “documents” nothing, and has more holes in it than a sieve as an argument against Republican presidents per se. But your argument in its use does point to the solidifying basis for the Great Divide. Our two polarized sides don’t agree where we have been, how we got here, what is happening now, and where we will wind up if we do this or that.

    Like

  16. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    GREAT you are the secessionists and we are the patriots. I can live with that!

    Like

  17. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “I could give you about a thousand examples of front line republicans, libertarians and media commentators saying that the bottom 50% do not pay taxes”
    No, you can’t, Frisch. The folks you like to hate are more precise in their communications than you want to admit.

    Like

  18. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    George, Harry Browne was in my opinion the first horrid Libertarian presidential candidate. High school graduate and rhetoric to match.

    Like

  19. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    How can you say that George. Exactly what “holes ” are you referring to? It’s a very simple fact that if Reagan had the will he could have vetoed the budget and left it up to the Democrats to gather a 2/3 majority to overcome. The fact is he sat on his hands and somehow convinced his loyalists that he was some kind of political Moses or something like that. He was a figurehead President at best and certainly does not deserve any real credit as far as leading us to any real prosperity because it was all smoke and mirrors since he passed on huge debt to future generations.
    Harry Browne was a real Libertarian pioneer before Ron Paul and the Tea Party and spoke out about how he saw things. He was an American free-market Libertarian writer and the Libertarian Party’s 1996 & 2000 candidate for President . The fact the Reagan, Bush 1 and Bush 2 had heir hands at the wheel during the greatest increase of the national debt in history and did nothing to stem the tide is undeniable.
    Why is it important to look back? Because next year another Repub will trot out the same old rhetoric while running for the White House and claiming to lead us to the promised land. It’s the same old B.S. but it is proof of the effectiveness of recycling. The idea that tax cuts lead to prosperity will again be center stage and will be as original as Rocky IV.
    Again, history shows you can’t trust the Repubs with the national wallet.

    Like

  20. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Emery, Ron Paul M.D. was the Libertarian Presidential nominee 8 years before Browne, with a fairly constant message. Ron Paul in 2011 is pretty much the same guy speaking his mind. More people are listening now; a straw poll has Paul at 37% against Obama at 41%. Makes Paul a viable VP nominee at the least.
    Obama/Pelosi/Reid spent at a rate that would sober a drunken sailor; the real power to spend is within the Speakership but Democratic apologists try to ignore that.

    Like

  21. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    We could simply not pay anyone in the House of Representatives as a start on not paying folks….

    Like

  22. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    158,000,000 hits on Google for the search, “the bottom 50%” “don’t pay taxes”
    1 in 158,000 folks are probably right wingnut pols.

    Like

  23. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    When it comes to who do we not pay, let’s start with all the members of the House of Representatives.

    Like

  24. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Darn, it dropped my first quotation mark when I did the search, 117,000 hits, and that should be “whom.”

    Like

  25. John Galt Avatar

    Ben,
    You wrote: “The determining factor is whether the President has the will to reduce government…” From this and other comments, one might believe that you favor reducing the federal government (head count, departments, and budget.) Is that an accurate deduction?
    Secondarily, May I remind you (and other readers) that per Article 1 section 7 of the U.S. Constitution reads: “All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives;”. Thus the “leadership” (or lack thereof) for the budget (revenue/spending bills) comes from The House.
    Despite Harry Brown’s attempt to distort Reagan’s history, the fact is that A large portion of the deficit increases were due to the execution of spending bills consummated during the Carter administration for which Reagan had no role or ability to prevent. (i.e. The increase was due to non-discretionary spending inherited by Ronald Reagan.)

    Like

  26. Larry Wirth Avatar
    Larry Wirth

    Ben Emery and his less decietful brother in crime like to play with statistics. Only problem, my Almanac details the deficit spending back a long ways- 1790 to be exact- and refutes Ben absolutely. Bush II = 6 trillion, my ass.
    The Bush II deficits (including a surplus in the year of 9/11) shows a total 8-year deficit of 2.08 trillion.
    Compare with a three year deficit by Obamao of 4.3 trillion and projected future deficits and then come back here and tell me that Republicans are the culprits.
    And, come to think of it, 650 billion of the Bush II total arrived with the take-over of all of Congress in January of 2007. C’mon guys, a little honesty would be welcome here…

    Like

  27. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    I agree with Rand Paul, ‘If we had a leader in the White House he would reassure Americans that SS and interest payments will continue to be made regardless of when the political posturing is over.’

    Like

  28. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Larry
    We have different numbers on the Bush2 legacy. This is from CBS News. When you add the bailout dollars you will see he easily doubled the deficit. Where did you get your numbers? Much of Obama’s numbers were inherited by Bush 2.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500803_162-4486228-500803.html
    The numbers are verified here.
    http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=11766
    “With no fanfare and little notice, the national debt has grown by more than $4 trillion during George W. Bush’s presidency.
    It’s the biggest increase under any president in U.S history.
    On the day President Bush took office, the national debt stood at $5.727 trillion. The latest number from the Treasury Department shows the national debt now stands at more than $9.849 trillion. That’s a 71.9 percent increase on Mr. Bush’s watch.
    The bailout plan now pending in Congress could add hundreds of billions of dollars to the national debt – though President Bush said this morning he expects that over time, “much if not all” of the bailout money “will be paid back.”
    But the government is taking no chances. Buried deep in the hundred pages of bailout legislation is a provision that would raise the statutory ceiling on the national debt to $11.315 trillion. It’ll be the 7th time the debt limit has been raised during this administration. In fact it was just two months ago, on July 30, that President Bush signed the Housing and Economic Recovery Act, which contained a provision raising the debt ceiling to $10.615 trillion.”
    John G
    I favor drastic cuts starting with the bloated military and foreign policy payoffs. We then eliminate redundant federal programs that are covered by states.

    Like

  29. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Greg
    Thanks for the info on Ron Paul and Harry Browne. Harry was he first Libertarian that caught my attention but Dr Paul will go down as one of the most influential thinkers of our time. Libertarian policies are too strong a medicine for most including myself but cannot be denied just because they seem impractical and harsh.
    Crafting my personal Libertarian-Green philosophy is challenging and difficult. At least I don’t have to feel restricted by believing that the Repubs or Dems are the way to go.

    Like

  30. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Paul, Browne certainly found an audience, and I reluctantly voted for him the first time. Held my nose, reminded me of my last days as a Democrat. But once was enough.
    I wouldn’t consider Paul an “influential thinker”, but he is well read, understands what he reads and has the courage of his convictions. I met him at a reception for him hosted by Dr. and Mrs. Timothy Leary during the ’88 campaign. My first Libertarian vote was for Ed Clark in ’80, and Clark was also there as were some other Libertarians I’d met and given a pitifully small amount of money to.
    Are you reading Reason? Probably the best periodical devoted to small “l” libertarian points of view. http://www.reason.com

    Like

  31. Larry Wirth Avatar
    Larry Wirth

    More specifically, Paul, my deficit numbers for 2001-2007 were provided to the Almanac by the Financial Management Service, U.S Dept of Treasury. They show 1.63 T for those years. The 2008 number is harder to find, but most internet sources I consulted show it to have been close to 455B. Not anything laudable, to be sure.
    Added together we reach $2.085 T, an average over 8 years of 260B/.
    Keep in mind that the big upsurge at the end of Bush II (TARP) falls into FY 2009. Dems and Obama could have repealed it, buy why would they, since the Dems were the ones who passed it in the first place?
    FY2008-2011 deficit numbers come from US government spending.com and the Brookings Institute. Both Show a 3 year deficit of a minimum of 4.35T, or 1.45T/year, five times the average of the Bush II era.
    I stand by my numbers. Yours are nearly double the factual record and your brothers are triple.
    Be careful about getting your “factoids” from the MSM.

    Like

  32. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    He will never agree with your well researched logical findings. He is a dodger. What a hoot!

    Like

  33. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Larry
    I don’t understand your numbers. This is direct from the US Treasury.
    http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm
    It shows Bush 2 increased the debt from 5.6 T to 10.024 T which is virtually doubling the debt. Even Tom McClintock noted this in his town hall meeting on health care a couple of years ago.

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  34. Larry Wirth Avatar
    Larry Wirth

    Paul, since we’re both (apparently) getting our numbers from the same place, I suggest to you that there is something seriously wrong here. A year by year accounting of the Bush II deficits shows a total of 2.08 trillion, it’s hard to make the accounting work. There is an explaination somewhere, maybe George can figure it out.
    But, you’re largely missing or ignoring the larger point, the national debt is on a steeply upturning curve and, to borrow a phrase, is “unsustainable.”
    Exactly what does your “side” propose to do about it??
    Answer: Absolutely nothing.
    What should we do about it? Refuse, under any circumstances, to raise the limit.

    Like

  35. George Rebane Avatar

    Re deficits, the following columns (date, debt, deficit) are from cited source
    9/30/2010 $13,561,623,030,891.70
    9/30/2009 $11,909,829,003,511.70 $1,651,794,027,380.00
    9/30/2008 $10,024,724,896,912.40 $1,885,104,106,599.30
    9/30/2007 $9,007,653,372,262.48 $1,017,071,524,649.92
    9/30/2006 $8,506,973,899,215.23 $500,679,473,047.25
    9/30/2005 $7,932,709,661,723.50 $574,264,237,491.73
    9/30/2004 $7,379,052,696,330.32 $553,656,965,393.18
    9/30/2003 $6,783,231,062,743.62 $595,821,633,586.70
    9/30/2002 $6,228,235,965,597.16 $554,995,097,146.46
    9/30/2001 $5,807,463,412,200.06 $420,772,553,397.10
    9/30/2000 $5,674,178,209,886.86 $133,285,202,313.20
    The sum of the deficits under Bush2 depend on what fiscal years you attribute to which president. But LarryW’s point is seminal to the discussion.

    Like

  36. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Larry
    It’s been generally accepted that the debt doubled under Bush2 as the increase of 5.6-10.024 T clearly shows in the Treasury Report. Anyone who might provide clarity on this can chime in.
    I just emphasize those and numbers those from the Reagan-Bush 1 era to show that historically Repub Presidents are not to be trusted with a solution.
    As to the bigger question. I don’t belong to a “side”. I would cut military spending by 40% by closing bases and bringing our troops home, eliminate the Bush tax cuts that didn’t create jobs, end corporate loopholes and subsidies, have a single payer health system with emphasis on preventative medicine, eliminate redundant Fed-State programs with a preference going to State and local jurisdiction, stop the “war on drugs” I can go on and on.
    Also, roll back all federal spending department by department by 20% no exceptions. They have to learn how to do the same job with less money.

    Like

  37. John Galt Avatar

    These figures state that the debt increased 4.4 Trillion over 8 years of Bush II.
    And
    3.5 Trillion over 3 years for Obama.
    i.e. Obama has increased the debt TWICE AS FAST as Bush II.
    Regardless of who has responsibility for the past, this current rate of increase in debt is unsustainable.
    Paul I think your across the board 20% cut is manageable. It wouldn’t be pretty, but it could be done. I think in some ways it’s easier for the public to accept a broad cut that to eliminate programs/departments here and there.

    Like

  38. Larry Wirth Avatar
    Larry Wirth

    Thanks, George, but there’s still a numbers problem, I have assumed that 2000 belongs to Clinton, 2001-2008 to Bush II. Both are, of course, since the real culprit is congress, but for the sake of argument… these are the numbers from treasury, + = surplus, – = deficit
    2001: +128,236,000,000
    2002: -157,758,000,000
    2003: -377,585,000,000
    2004: -412,727,000,000
    2005: -318,346,000,000
    2006: -248,181,000,000
    2007: -244,171,000,000
    Total, 2,08 trillion.

    Like

  39. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Larry
    Can you show me the chart you’re taking these numbers from. They are totally different from mine. You already have the url for my source.

    Like

  40. Larry Wirth Avatar
    Larry Wirth

    Oops, forgot 2008, estimated at 455,000,000.
    But, from the same source, the US Treasury Dept, we can also read that the total debt at the end of each fiscal year was:
    2000: 5,674,200,000
    2007: 9,007,700,000
    Quite different, wouldn’t you say? Haven’t figured out were the 1.8 trillion difference comes from… Anybody?
    Or, if you prefer:
    2001: 5,807,500,000
    2008: 9,562,000,000 (est)

    Like

  41. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I actually agree with a few of Paul’s ideas on government cutting and where and who should be managing it. See, we all share a few things in common.
    Also, when I was given the chance by the people of our County to be in charge of their money, we fought real hard to keep things as local as possible and force the state to stop shoving mandates without money down our people’s throats. We lost but now we have the Tea Party and thy are achieving things we couldn’t.

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  42. George Rebane Avatar

    Good discussion gents. Can both PaulE and LarryW restate their data source URLs please? This shouldn’t be too hard to sort out; there are only two columns of ten or so numbers to sort – date and national debt. I think you may not be using the same data.

    Like

  43. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    In the interest of “truthiness,” do these numbers:
    “these are the numbers from treasury, + = surplus, – = deficit”
    include the costs of Bush’s wars?
    Or were they scraped off and downloaded onto Obama’s plate?

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  44. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    “Or were they scraped off and downloaded onto Obama’s plate?”
    As interest on loans taken out to pay for those wars, or some other form of governmental budgeting sleight of hand?

    Like

  45. Larry Wirth Avatar
    Larry Wirth

    George, both sets of numbers I’ve quoted are from the 2008 “World Almanac” (a book, not a website)and are “Summary of Receipts, Outlays, and Surpluses or Deficits, 1941-2007,” attributed “to Financial Management Service, U.S. Dept of the Treasury; Congressional Budget Office,” for the year-by-year deficit numbers, and “Public Debt of the U.S.,” attributed to the Bureau of Public Debt, U.S. Dept of the Treasury” for the FY year end accumulated totals.
    Note 2008 was prior to the current administration taking over, so no real motive to misrepresent the matter at that time.

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  46. Larry Wirth Avatar
    Larry Wirth

    DougK, I wondered about the same thing. I’m pretty sure the figures include the costs of Afghanistan and Iraq. Form the same tables, I totaled the interest payments made on the dept 2001-2008 and 2.97 trillion was the total.
    No match, but you can clearly see the cost of carrying the debt; most years the interest actually exceeded the amount of borrowed. Like I said, unsustainable. This madness must stop.

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  47. George Rebane Avatar

    LarryW, no intent to misrepresent implied; I was just trying to help you and PaulE sort out the different answers you both were getting. In that vein, would you accept the numbers on the CBO website that I copied in my 1052AM comment?

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  48. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Here’s my url George.
    http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm
    I’m interested in your feedback. I recall Tom Mc using these figures to show the debt doubled (nearly) under Bush and was galloping at a record speed under Obama.

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  49. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, that’s the URL from which I copied the first two columns of my 1052AM comment that I misstated was a “CBO website” (the third column is just the differences between the stated national debt values, and presumably therefore, the suffered deficits). In fact it is actually the US Treasury website that you pointed us to earlier.

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  50. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    So then, for the record, the deficit doubled (nearly) under Bush 2.

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