Rebane's Ruminations
July 2011
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George Rebane

Our friends on the left are overjoyed with President Obama’s latest gambit to keep the country going toward bankruptcy.  He has floated a hazy vision of $4T spending cuts that comes with at least $1T of tax increases that add on to the $1T tax increases required by Obamacare – our new nationalized healthcare system that is now providing the country with a new bombshell a month in additional costs, reduced care, and rationed services.

Supposedly this rejects Speaker Boehner’s new proposal to cut spending by $2T with no new tax hikes.

And now Minority Leader Sen McConnell’s desperate response (with sparse Republican support) is to pass a law allowing Obama to unilaterally increase the debt limit by $2.5T in three tranches with equivalent TBD spending cuts.  The only caveat is a no-caveat that these debt limit increases could be over-ridden only by super majorities in Congress.  This puts the ball back in the Democrats’ court, and they would continue to own the country’s downward spiral as 2012 rolls around.


In all of this back-and-forth few seem to be paying attention to the realities –

1. The country’s real financial obligations are many times the $14.3T current national debt.  The most hopeful estimates put the total federal obligations at around $64T, and more realistically above $110T.
2. Our current GDP is around $14.7T and estimated to grow very slowly for the indefinite future.  The federal budget is 25% of GDP (around $3.6T).   Even at this rate the federal revenues are only $2.2T, forcing us to borrow about forty cents of every dollar we spend.  Current plans call for annual deficits in excess of $1T indefinitely.
3. No one (Republicans or Democrats) have a plan to pay off the national debt, let alone the country’s total near-term entitlements obligations outlined above.  The only thing that the tea party movement has been able to do so far is bring this situation into the national debate.
4. No plan put forward reduces the national debt; all they hope to do is slow down its growth by some insignificant amount like $4T over ten years.  Recall that ‘deficit’ is the annual growth of ‘debt’.
5. US will default (delay debt service payments) only if Obama so orders it.  Our annual debt service is less than $300B, and receipts are $2.2T.  The US has defaulted on its debt and delayed debt service payments several times in history, this would not be the first.
6. Progressives (Democrats) tell us that GDP growth is not affected by either taxes collected or the level of government participation in the economy.  Obama’s plan is to make the current 25% participation the new norm as compared to its historical 19%.
7. Progressives believe that raising tax rates increases government revenues for the long run.  The EU countries, led by Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Ireland, Belgium, give lie to that principle, as does our own history.
8. Greek debt is junk, Portugese debt is junk, Ireland’s just became junk, Italy’s is about to become junk.  The European Central Bank has only one recourse, to denigrate the rating agencies out of one side of its mouth, while putting forward a plan to screw private lenders to these countries.  And that is not even a sustainable solution.  Result: the eurozone will disintegrate.
9. The United States is solidly on track to follow its leftwing-hallowed European socialist models into financial chaos.

Few are astute enough to ask, if such tax increases don’t affect GDP and will, in fact, increase government revenues, why are the progressives so willing to postpone them until after the election.  Occam recommends accepting the simplest explanation that has always accounted for all the observables – the purposive demolition of the dollar and downfall of America, first as a hegemon, and then as a sovereign nation-state.

In the meantime, while American progressives are popping corks for what they consider Obama’s latest coup, the lenders are all playing musical chairs with how they manage their loans to the various fiscally irresponsible countries.  No one wants to lend very much, and everyone is moving their money around trying not to be where the next default(s) will come.  And yet there are some high yields out there that may still have some life in them, as long as the politicians do their part and continue to obscure the onrush of reality with their fog of lies.  What to do, what to do?

Exit question:  Anybody been keeping track of precious metals and commodities?

[15jul2011 update]  My voice has long joined those having explained to the innocent true believers in the Social Security Trust Fund that there is nothing there but IOUs – nothing that anyone can spend with which to buy a single apple.  For years the Dems have been telling their sheeple that SS is fully funded to some misty date in the future.  Many of these same simpletons live in these mountains.  A reader reminded me that if there were an actual SS Trust Fund, then we could tap it like the Strategic Oil Reserve.  And then the President wouldn't have to spew his bullcrap about not being able to send out SS on 3 August.

Well, it turns out that no progressive wants to point out the truth that the SS is bust, there is nothing there but another $2.3T of unfunded debt that will explode in the coming decaded – here is more in the San Francisco Examiner.

Posted in , , , ,

116 responses to “Unlimited Debt Musical Chairs (updated 15jul2011)”

  1. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, “fair” has many faces and looks different depending on your vantage. Nevertheless, given all the improvements you cite, we will continue increasing our debt with taxes at the historical 20% of GDP level. In fact, according to Obama’s past budget proposals we will continue increasing our debt at 25% (current) of GDP spending levels. And at this rate our economic growth will be anemic, which further exacerbates the problem.
    We are past the tipping point. No one (Repubs or Dems) has a plan to get us out of the debt/deficit crisis. The only visible oasis in the distance is GDP growth at levels that make all reasonable people identify it as a mirage.

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  2. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Fair share is at least some share which the Republicans would like to keep at 0 since they don’t advocate any elimination of subsidies or loopholes . And nowhere do the Repubs look at the sacred cow of military spending and the huge waste in our foreign policy which under the Bush admin allowed truckloads of cash literally to be dumped into the tents of tribal chiefs as bribery for their support of our illegal war. In fact they call for an increase in the military budget.
    So I’ve given this my best shot. What is your best idea abut how to precede ?

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  3. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    If a man works 80 hours a wek to get ahead and his neighbor works 10, should we take from the 80 hour fellow via government and give to the 20?

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  4. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Todd
    I’m afraid your question has nothing to do with the current topic. I’d love to get into that conversation but not at this time.
    What is your opinion on whether the above listed corporations should pay taxes?

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  5. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Paul I am surprised that you don’t understand my relevant question to this thread and punt.

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  6. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Okay Todd I’ll give it a go
    First of all, the number of hours someone works has nothing to do with the income they earn. Someone working at minimum wage for 80 hors a week may make only $500 a week before taxes. Someone with a substantial trust fund may make $5000 a week without working at all so income has little to do with the willingness to work.
    I believe in a graduated income tax with a rate similar to 1999 before the Bush 2 debacle that led us to where we are. I believe it is Constitutional because in the nearly 100 years it has never been declared otherwise despite many legal challenges. I believe it is moral because it provides for the greater good and promotes a civil society and the general well being of all citizens. There is not a modern government in the world that does not have a progressive income tax. So yes I believe a reasonable graduated income tax to be fair and moral.
    Now your turn. Is it OK for the above Corps, to pay no taxes?
    (from 15 July 2011 at 03:47 PM)

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  7. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Well let me clearer since you obfuscated m question.
    Let us say a musician works eighty hours a week and hits it big. Lets say he gets a record contract and a tour gig and is paid $100 per hour. After a while of those 80 hour weeks he has earned $64,000 buckos. His neighbor, a crummy guitar player is kind of lazy and works 10 hours a week at $25 bucks an hour. Should the successful guitarist have the government take part of his money and transfer it to the lazy guitarist because the lazy guy said he needs it and it is only fair.
    There.

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  8. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    You have created a colorful scenario to characterize the progressive income tax. I know crappy guitar players that never learned to play that make millions because of the way they look and how they’ve been marketed and brilliant players that practice all the time that make chump change so what’s the point? So if hard work is the basis for economic value should the lousy rich guitarist who didn’t work hard to achieve his wealth subsidize the hard working brilliant player who failed to achieve commercial success? I support a progressive income tax. What more do I need to say
    Please, it’s your turn. What about the tax free Corps?

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  9. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    If a person or a company follows the law and owes no tax then they pay no tax. If that is not acceptable change the law.

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  10. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Then should we change the tax code to insure they pay taxes?

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  11. George Rebane Avatar

    Instead of picking someone to punish for following a tax code that is perhaps perverse, why don’t we redo the tax code into something that is not made up of patch upon patch without knowing how one patch affects the others.
    But then again, that’s only the reasonable way, and not the populist way through which politicians can demagogue the voters.

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  12. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “I know crappy guitar players that never learned to play that make millions because of the way they look and how they’ve been marketed” – Really Paul? Who are they? Oh – I know – you and Bob have all of these realities and they are in your files back at the office. You can’t name any, but they are real. At least in what you call a brain. Once again, I ask for facts. How rude – how uncivil. There are all of these rich, filthy rich people and they devour small children and plot to keep the poor hard working union members in chains.
    The nation is going broke and the useful idiots squabble over who can sit in which deck chair. Have fun, fools. Capital and productivity will slip away to fairer climes whilst the louts and knaves sport amongst themselves smashing things and declaring themselves kings over the wreckage. That crown made of the detritus of what was here earlier looks quite fetching on you.

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  13. RL Crabb Avatar

    Okay, Scott…I’m an idiot. It says so on the masthead of my comic strip. I can’t back up my assertions with a long list of links that you would dismiss anyway because they are no doubt biased. I used to get the same criticism from the progressives on our local left-leaning blog. I know I can’t win even if I agree with you.

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  14. George Rebane Avatar

    I wonder if there is at least general agreement that continuing to increase the debt-to-GDP ratio will rapidly cause a decline of America along ALL dimensions of our sovereignty and quality of life.

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  15. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Bob – You haven’t backed up your claims with anything. For example – Where have I ever said or implied that the R’s are blameless? I don’t mind having some back and forth with those I disagree with, but I would expect that folks would challenge me with examples or explanations and I always try to give some. The postings I see here from the left seem to be filled with hyperbole and extremely distorted views of how the business and banking worlds work. Wall Street (that is: the large banking, financial services and insurance companies) are composed of folks just like you and I. They are, by actual fact, pretty much divided politically from top to bottom the same as the rest of the country. They work just as hard or more as you and are just as law abiding. The left loves to mis-characterize them as the source of all evil and greed in this country based on a very few and highly publicized scandals. You have a right to your opinions, but as I stated above, just keep railing at your boogey men and ghosts while the rest of the world goes to work and surpasses this country. I am not so naive to trust any party or person with the answer, but neither am I so cynical or prejudiced that I dismiss a whole group of people as automatically bad just because of their work or income. This nation brought itself down financially because of it’s collective greed and stupidity and laziness. Now the rope has come to near it’s end and the left wants to blame it all on: Those that worked harder and smarter, anyone in a certain profession, and the “free market” that doesn’t even exist. Those of us on the conservative side have been pointing out (in some cases, for decades) what was coming and why. And it has pretty much happened as predicted. Our fed govt has strayed from it’s legal boundaries and catered to the craven desires of the stupid and greedy in exchange for the votes to get into office and power. Both parties had a go at it, but the left and the Dems are the worse by far. In fact, they brag about it. The only good potential leaders I see are currently in the Republican Party, but there are still plenty of them I wouldn’t vote for even against Obama. In the last presidential, I voted for Alan Keyes. He has plenty of baggage, but he was the best choice of them all. It’s not a matter of “winning”, Bob, it’s that we all need to make sure we start with actual facts and go from there. I can present my facts and you can present yours, but all I hear from your side is talking points from the left.

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  16. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Scott
    I was responding to Todd’s rather odd analogy by reversing his storyline. Sorry if you found it distasteful. Lousy guitar players? Pick any of the hair band whankers that made millions (Aerosmith, Black Sabath, etc..) and compare them to Danny Gatton or Roy Bucannon who barely got by as an example.
    I tend to agree with you George about the inevitable GDP ratio crisis. That’s why we need a decline in spending and an increase in revenue by mining the tax slackers and big time avoiders. George, you know that tax reform is a huge and time consuming process. Why not tax abusers that have scammed the system by eliminating loopholes and subsidies for those described above for exmple while striving for meaningful reform? If we are in the state of emergency that you claim I’d think you’d be into any fair way to close the gap including raising revenue.

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  17. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    It appears I have stumped Paul. He is unable to grasp what I have asked. What a hoot!

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  18. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    You may be too deep for me Todd. Can you reword your question is really simple language?

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  19. George Rebane Avatar

    OK PaulE, that’s a step forward. But massive spending cuts are the only realistic way to drive deficits to zero and stabilize the debt (without even a hope yet of paying it down). I don’t know of any “tax abusers”, and if any are identified, then the combined resources of the IRS and DOJ should make sure they spend some hard time behind bars.
    But as I have pointed out numerous times already, we are in unknown territory today with the feds sucking out 25% of GDP (and plan on making that the new norm), and you (and yours) want to increase this fraction even more. And then you expect that government revenues are going to increase as a result. I invite you to reconsider the arguments put forth here – http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2011/06/the-liberal-mind-tax-rates-dont-affect-earnings.html
    Finally, the question that no liberal wants to answer: What percent of GDP should be enough for the feds to pull out of the economy and spend for the necessaries of state? The conservetarian in me looks at the numbers and comes up with 15% which, under a new tax code, should make the economy and government revenues soar.

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  20. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Abusers to me are the leeches that make billions of $ and spend no money on taxes therefore taking advantage of the infrastructure, government services and military protection while contributing nothing towards their funding. The “wall of shame” corporations fall into that category for a start.
    http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/ad-lib/2011/apr/10/tax-evaders-wall-shame/
    Requiring a balanced budget requires a clear consensus and understanding of what role we ask government to play in our lives. That consensus will then elect representatives that pass supporting legislation and set tax levels to support those objectives. All additional spending would require funding support and if necessary tax increases such as a war tax for adventures such as Iraq, Afghanistan and yes, Libya. For example, if it becomes an expression of the national will to have universal health care then funding to pay for it will be in the budget and may include tax increases. Just a reminder that all citizens of Denmark pay taxes, there is a minimum tax rate no matter what your income level.
    A balanced Budget amendment does not necessarily deal with the current debt. That will require additional measures to establish a revenue surplus that will then pay down the debt, much like the Clinton-Gingrich example.

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  21. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Sorry, Paul, even if there was no corporation income tax whatsoever, every penny of corporate profits would still be subject to taxation. Corporations are just handy places for government to reach in and skim some off the top, before that profit gets to the owner, whether they are a blue collar guy’s retirement savings or Teresa Heinz Kerry’s Senatorial purchase fund.

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  22. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    But Greg these Corps pay no taxes and in many cases receive millions in subsidies. Are you saying that this is OK and Corps should pay no taxes?

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  23. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Correction Billions in subsidies

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  24. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Paul, the profits of corporations are owned by the owners. The owners get taxed. Ratchet up the effective corporate tax rates and you hurt the retirement savings of the working stiffs more than you hurt your hated ‘fat cats’.

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  25. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “Requiring a balanced budget requires a clear consensus and understanding of what role we ask government to play in our lives. That consensus will then elect representatives that pass supporting legislation and set tax levels to support those objectives.”
    No, a balanced budget just requires the Congress to not spend more than is taken in. It’s much easier than you make it out to be.

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  26. George Rebane Avatar

    Acknowledging that my questions were again sidestepped (nothing new here), the accusation of the “leeches” is a bit puzzling. Why so? Well, apparently the corporations did everything that the government wanted them to do, and were subsequently rewarded exactly as the government specified that they should be rewarded. Adding this to GregG’s comments, isn’t this exactly the desired corporate behaviors that were envisioned in the the Grand Plan when the tax code was last modified????

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  27. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Paul – I have a lot Buchanan’s stuff but he was a lousy example to pick. The man was a hopeless drunk and he screwed his own career. He was a great guitarist but ended his life in a jail cell in shame. Sad. I like Adrian Legg, Phil Keaggy, and Bill Frisell a lot but they’re not going to fill arenas and I don’t think they would want to. Just because you don’t like Aerosmith et al, doesn’t mean the guitar players are lousy. Those guys can play a lot of other good stuff, but it doesn’t make money and they don’t record it.
    I think now I’m way off from George’s topic, but I doubt there’s going to be much in the way of agreement here. I think most folks just can’t appreciate how broke we are. We need to cut spending a lot and increase the economy a lot to just stay afloat. But it just won’t happen, so hang on and have fun.

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  28. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Okay George let’s look at at least one of your questions. To put the tax revenue at 15% of GDP as you suggest would put us in the company of such countries as the Dominican Republic and Tunisia who have similar rates. Here is a useful chart from the Heritage Foundation for reference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
    If we look at the 25% level we chart next to Venezuela and Samoa Most Western European nations are above 38% so we’ve got a ways to go to match them.
    Also, we should look at the percent amount paid for military spending and we are at 4.7%, sixth highest % and by far the greatest over all spender in the world surpassed notably by Iraq and Israel and other Arab nations such Saudi Arabia. Since there seems to be no disposition to cut military spending from your side the cuts would have to come from domestic programs and the percent paid to support military ventures would increase dramatically. This is from
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
    It all boils down to what kind of country do we want to live in and, yes, are we willing to pay for it.
    My use of the description of money sucking Corporations as leeches is of course an editorial but somewhat effective description of business practices that live off the blood provided by hard working taxpayers.

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  29. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Paul, does the tax burden in those countries reflect all taxes? The reason I ask is in America we are taxed at special districts, cities, counties, states and the feds. Is that 15% only at the federal level in those countries?

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  30. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, ‘there you go again’ to quote a famous man.
    Your comparisons to Tunisia and the Dominican Republic as America’s fate with a 15% of GDP government share are from the simplistic world model that all collectivists purvey. Such countries have autocratic governance, corruption beyond comprehension, and economic engines from which nothing that low taxes (per se) can unleash. Such desperate comparisons humorous.
    The behavior of corporations has been countlessly explained here. They are a creation of our malevolent tax code.

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  31. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Good question Todd. The chart, provided by the Heritage Foundation, bases their figures on total tax revenue as a percentage of gross domestic product.

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  32. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    I didn’t place a judgment on our house mates in the 15% GDP that you prefer. The numbers, from the Heritage Foundation, tell their own story. I keep asking for contemporary examples of admirable countries but you seem to have none, other than a couple of Asian City States, so that leaves me grasping for straws when I try to extrapolate your supposition to the real world. I need some help here.

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  33. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    “business practices that live off the blood provided by hard working taxpayers” Actual examples? C’on Paul, if you can’t provide any backup, why should anyone listen to this non-stop hatred and prejudice? The fact is, you can’t raise the tax rates high enough to sustain the out of control spending. Our military is a necessary and mandated cost. It is not the reason we are going broke. I’m a hard working tax payer and I know who takes my money and wastes it. It’s the govt, Paul. What company forces you to pay them anything? Name one, just one. You want to raise the taxes on companies? Where does that money come from? Keep shooting your foot Paul, you might have a little stubble where your toes were.

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  34. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Pal, I checked your link to Heritage and could not find if the countries you are using pay property tax, special district taxes and fees at all levels. Even though it says total tax burden I do not believe they mean at all levels. The reason is logical. The fed burden we are discussing is only the fed burden. So I have to assume they mean only the top government for a comparison. I don’t think Afghanistan has a property tax but I could be wrong. When you add all levels of government here in the USA you have somewhere near a 50% burden.

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  35. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Actual practices? Scott you are like a greyhound chasing a phony rabbit. The thing is that I agree with much of what you say but I think revenue increases have to be part of the formula so why not go after those who take and don’t give. Our corporate taxes are not the highest in the world when you factor loopholes and subsidies. Then they come in quite low. How about this one from the Hall of Shame.
    “Wells Fargo, the fourth largest bank in the US, which took $107 billion in bailouts, wrote off all its losses by acquiring Wachovia, thus paying no taxes. Yet its CEO earned $5.6 million in cash for his salary and $13 million in stock. ”
    The illegal war in Iraq will likely end up costing us 1.5 T or more. That’s chump change right? Also, the truckloads of bribery cash dumped into the tents of mullahs by the Bush admin. It’s military spending so no scrutiny allowed. Thank goodness your view only represents 25% of the electorate but it’s fun to chat with you anyway.
    Yes Roy Bucannon was a drunk and probably a bad example. But Danny Gatton? What a player. Have you heard him?

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  36. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Todd
    I was just using he Heritage numbers and definitions. Total tax means total tax in my mind. Of course you might not trust the Heritage Foundation but they are a Conservative think tank of note.

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  37. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    No Paul, I trust them. Their definition does not contain any tax rates other than the federal level.

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  38. George Rebane Avatar

    “Wells Fargo, the fourth largest bank in the US, which took $107 billion in bailouts, wrote off all its losses by acquiring Wachovia, thus paying no taxes. Yet its CEO earned $5.6 million in cash for his salary and $13 million in stock. ”
    And what in hell was wrong with that??!! Wells Fargo was one of the banks that were called in to the famous ‘Saturday night massacre’ by the feds and told to accept the bailouts, no and, ifs, or buts. It received $25B (not $107B) and paid it back. In the meanwhile it bought a failing bank in order to strengthen its position in the industry and maintain value for its shareholders. Clearly, all criminal activity.

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  39. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Todd
    Can you show me the details that conclude that State and other taxes are not part of the Heritage calculations? It’s a very important conclusion that needs validation.

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  40. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Paul the onus is on you since you cited Heritage. I am the one who is sceptically. Please give the readers the whole enchilada.

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  41. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Okay since you have no information otherwise let’s let it stand as Heritage puts it “total tax revenue” . There is no information otherwise. Nice try Todd, I gave you a fair chance.

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  42. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Well golly thanks. Dodging is not pretty Paul.

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  43. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    You do a pretty good job of it.

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  44. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    No dodging here. You failed the test of veracity.

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  45. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Yes, Paul – increased revenue does need to be part of it, but that needs to come from an expanded economy. Not taking more from those that already pay more. You have failed completely to make your case. What about the BLOOD? Yes – I will look up Danny Gatton, I suggest you look up a basic math primer and some good books on western logic. We can provide help, which you obviously need.

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  46. Mikey McD Avatar

    Some believe that Wells “bought a failing bank” due to strong arming by Uncle Sam. The foreclosure season is still very much upon us…

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  47. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Scott
    What happens if the economy does not expand enough to cover tax cuts? Answer Bush 2, Reagan, Bush 1, massive debt and doubling and tripping of the deficit. It’s the Republican way that’s why they can’t be trusted with math. Those numbers are undeniable even by Todd the Dodger.

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  48. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Spending cuts work Paul, endorse them.

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  49. Mikey McD Avatar

    Paul, increased tax rates kill tax revenue.

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  50. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    All you Republicans who claim that more tax cuts will magically grow America out of a debt crisis, please explain to America why almost a decade of Bush tax rates have coincided with the worst economy since the Depression and the biggest spike in deficits in U.S. history?

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