Rebane's Ruminations
June 2011
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George Rebane

Archie&Meathead Apropos to the lively discussion at ‘True Value of Work and Caring Economics’, Harvard professor of government Harvey Mansfield contributed a telling piece about the “poor choices … students made in selecting their courses and majors.”  In ‘Sociology and Other Meathead Majors’ Dr Mansfield points out the distinction between education based on facts and that based on values.  And, of course, therein lays a root cause of rot in our workforce.  Majors in ‘values based’ subject areas are hard to sell on the labor markets.  And moreover, such majors are victims of the commercially useless leftwing ideologies that are rampant in the country’s schools.  That is a double burden that no employer, save the government, wants to bear.

Mansfield opines that “Archie Bunker was right to be skeptical of his son-in-law’s opinions.”, and goes on to say –

More fundamental, however, is the division within the university today, in America and everywhere, between science and the humanities. Science deals with facts but the humanities also have to deal with values. This is where the problem of bad choices arises. We think that one can have knowledge of fact but not of values—the famous “fact/value” distinction.

Science has knowledge of fact, and this makes it rigorous and hard. The humanities have their facts bent or biased by values, and this makes them lax and soft. This fact—or is it a value?—gives confidence and reputation to scientists within the university. Everyone respects them, and though science is modest because there is always more to learn, scientists sometimes strut and often make claims for extra resources. Some of the rest of us glumly concede their superiority and try to sell our dubious wares in the street, like gypsies. We are the humanists. 

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332 responses to “‘Meathead’ Majors”

  1. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “It pisses me off, to no end, to listen to a bunch of pompous idiots, talk about things that they no nothing about.
    If you want to know about my “major”, it comes from growing up and living on a lot of those mean streets. I’d didn’t learn what I know from a book in a college class at Berkeley. I’ve been out in the world for a long time and I’ve learned the vast majority of what I know from living it and/or seeing it first hand, up close and personal!”
    We’ll make that ‘honorary meathead’, you’ve earned it. If it makes you feel better, I didn’t learn anything from a book in a college class at Berkeley, either.

    Like

  2. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Greg, I find you very logical. More importantly I find that you cite facts and offer solutions. Well done, keep up the good work.
    First, I am unaware of the working definition of ‘regressives’ (can anyone say SPIN!), but Rebane, Greg, etc never demean the poor; you are making things up. Ironically, Rebane and I have teamed up to put OUR money where our mouth’s are (not for a pat on the back, as a part of a SOLUTION). “you need to get your ass out on the pavements and see what it’s really like! “Posted by: Mike Thornton | 03 June 2011 at 02:12 PM
    I will start taking suggestions from a heartless, hateful, illogical ranter like you when tuna start riding bicycles- not a second sooner. Ask yourself, when have I ever offered a solution?

    Like

  3. Mike Thornton Avatar

    But isn’t that was because you were too busy sleeping off the bath house party from the night before, Greg?

    Like

  4. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    George, I find it amazing that you pull the ‘mudslinging’ card out only when one of the ‘left’ calls it like it is. The unrestrained incivility of Mr. Goodknight and your propensity to tolerate it, speaks clearly to your stewardship of this forum. Greg and Todd are both serial insulters. I have said it before but I will say it again, you reap what you sow.

    Like

  5. Cha Cha Cha Avatar
    Cha Cha Cha

    And Enos and Thornton and Frisch are boy scouts (not the LSD kind that Jcutter despises).
    “are both serial insulters.”

    Like

  6. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George, you are doing just fine here. When the loons on the left complain they are simply doing what they have done since age two. No big deal. I find it interesting Frisch defends the mud slung by Thornton and cries a river when Greg defends himself. What a hot!

    Like

  7. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Frisch, I feel your pain. You can dish it out, but you can’t take it when you come out swinging hard and get your nose bloodied anyway.
    I believe the ‘incivility’ Frisch has been experiencing started afresh after he wrote an Op/Ed for The Union extolling the virtues of AB32 and the evil of Prop 23, and in the comments afterwards tried to pass himself of as a disinterested observer of the process of good governance. He just wouldn’t fess up to being the CEO of a company that would gain revenue from that good governance. Hence the lying by omission charge.
    BTW on the global warming front, here’s an interesting recent sea level measurement discussion:
    http://www.aviso.oceanobs.com/fileadmin/images/news/indic/msl/MSL_Serie_EN_Global_IB_RWT_NoGIA_Adjust.gif
    http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/sea-level-plummeting-lowest-level-since-at-least-2004/
    Note the red line is smoothed… the last of the blue raw datapoints are nearly off the bottom of the chart on the lower right corner. Steve, please tell me again how CO2 is the driver of modern climate and sea level in the context of this new info!

    Like

  8. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Greg, Frisch has self interest in global warming and no facts will dissuade him.

    Like

  9. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Mikey, I’ve got a 30 year track record of working to make a positive difference, so I’m pretty comfortable about what I’ve done and where I stand in these matters.
    And while putting up some “money” is a pretty cool thing to do, it doesn’t mean that you actually have any real experience, nor is it the same as being on the front lines.
    But hey, if you’ve done something, than you desreve credit for what you did!
    And lets be clear that it is the regressives who are constantly judging and demonizing people and doing it for some of the most crass and selfish reasons imaginable.
    Then you have people like Todd, who apparently does it for kicks and/or because it gets him off somehow.
    What Steve F. says is completely true. As long as it’s the targets of regressive rage that are getting ripped, you guys are always fine with it.
    So, I really think the whining (while expected) is really pretty lame and you should give it up…
    Speaking of Steve, I can tell you that the guy knows more and is smarter, than any 10 of you combined.

    Like

  10. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Greg, incivility is your calling card.
    I never tried to pass myself off as anything other than exactly who and what I am, the CEO of a organization taking a position based on years of involvement in public policy, and applying the collective experience of myself and our staff to an issue of importance. That’s free speech my friend. Let me tell you I have been ‘taking it’ for years, and your critique is not going to hurt me, but I am calling you an what you are; a rude, ill mannered bully, who can only make his point by demeaning people, and implying they have ulterior motives for their actions.
    I have stated many, many times here that I do what I do because I believe in it, just like you, but you can’t accept that.
    What a mean spirited little man you are. It must be frustrating to you that you are stuck in Nevada County working on what? Community Access Television and playing a horn? Flying around on your little airplane. Too bad you aren’t actually working on something big and important–but then life can be a little disappointing eh? Little man syndrom really hit the mark didn’t it?

    Like

  11. Mike Thornton Avatar

    You have to remember, Steve, according to the regressives “you’re either with them or against them!” No matter what they say or do, they are right and they are moral, so if you disagree with them you have to be wrong and immoral. It’s called “projection”. They take all their dishonesty and mal-intent and then assign to whomever they see as their enemies.

    Like

  12. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    I still can’t find anything constructive in your post. How is the goal of increasing EVERYONE’S INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY ‘regressive’? The only people “demonized” here are the elite that FORCE their doctrine of nanny government on us. I side with Ben, Paul, and others that believe our gigantic (technical term) government is the problem and less of it (directed by freedom loving Americans) is the solution.
    Problem: central planning continues to fail the lower and middle class (socially via entitlements, economically via a ridiculous [I contend immoral] tax code, pathetic negative yields on personal savings, unwarranted regulation and fiscally via uncontrollable spending/debt).
    Solutions: Give choices instead of FORCING dependence on government entitlement programs [SS, farms, education, etc], reform the tax code [flat tax = equitable tax], decrease regulations, shut down the Federal Reserve, stop bailouts/stimulus/QE1.2.3., cut spending and pay down debt.)

    Like

  13. Michael R. kesti Avatar
    Michael R. kesti

    “…it is the regressives who are constantly judging and demonizing people…”
    It is clear to me, MT, that your intent in the several occasions of using the term “regressives” in this thread is to judge and demonize. You, sir, are a hypocrite.

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  14. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Kesti, OH SNAP! Well put and right on the money.
    “…it is the regressives who are constantly judging and demonizing people…”
    It is clear to me, MT, that your intent in the several occasions of using the term “regressives” in this thread is to judge and demonize. You, sir, are a hypocrite.
    Posted by: Michael R. kesti | 03 June 2011 at 07:20 PM

    Like

  15. Paul emery Avatar
    Paul emery

    George, hoot should be banned for redundancy. It just doesn’t have the devastating impact it once had..
    Todd
    For the sake of variety can you use another word other than hoot. Here’s some recommendations. What a joke, scam; lie, farce, piece of …,hypocrite, liar, phony, scammer, idiot, fool, dolt, dum dum, ass, mess, poopster, piece of whatever, hippie, commie, red, wimp, looser, dip stick, rat,dog, mouse, skunk, punk, creep, pervert,
    You can even be intellectually challenging and call some one a impetuous cynic, deceiver, or add any of the above such as impetuous dolt. You can use insidious with any of the above such as insidious dog rat or creep . how about insolent fool or looser. Try over educated dolt.
    See how creative you can be. Hope this is a help. You’re kinda in a rut.
    In fact hang out at any grammar school and get some ideas.

    Like

  16. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    What does it feel like to host Dilbert George?

    Like

  17. John W Avatar
    John W

    Paul, with the ability to name call like that you should write a comic strip.

    Like

  18. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Oh hey Greg, did I mention that all 3 pieces of legislation I was working on passed the legislature this week?
    SB 14, SB 15 and SB 201 were the numbers.
    The first two were also supported by the San Diego EDC, LA EDC, Fresno Business Council, Valley Vision along with Sierra Business Council.
    But then I am just, how did Todd put it, a failed ‘cook’.

    Like

  19. enjoy your opm high Avatar
    enjoy your opm high

    Just send us the bill, don’t rub it in our faces…
    “legislation I was working on passed the legislature this week? SB 14, SB 15 and SB 201 were the numbers. ”
    Posted by: stevenfrisch | 03 June 2011 at 08:26 PM

    Like

  20. Paul emery Avatar
    Paul emery

    Oow
    Failed cook
    That’s pretty good. That can be applied to many occupations such as teacher, mechanic, tree trimmer, plumber, developer, builder, lawyer, musician. Just about any occupation. This is getting good.

    Like

  21. Paul emery Avatar
    Paul emery

    John W.
    I don’t call anybody names. I’m just concerned about the state of the art of trash talk.

    Like

  22. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Wow, three pieces of legislation without any controversial content whatsoever. Passed the Senate by virtual unanimous consent. Mom and apple pie.
    And how many of those words did you write, Steve?

    Like

  23. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    They passed because a broad group of stakeholders spent 2 years working on them Greg. What did you do this week?

    Like

  24. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Regarding Thornton’s blind spot, the best statement of that was by the great Tom Lehrer back in the ’60’s:
    “I know that there are people who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!”

    Like

  25. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Steve, it’s unclear just what you actually did for these bills. Show up for meetings, eat a few doughnuts?
    Will California avoid financial catastrophe as a result of these getting sent to the Assembly?
    Still, cleaning up the budget process is important. Even the deck chairs on the Titanic needed proper placement.
    Bravo, Steve!

    Like

  26. Mike Thornton Avatar

    “Regressive(s)” is (as I have explained previously) the correct term to describe both the philosophy and the it’s supporters. I don’t know what else you call it when people are trying to roll back the clock, on social progress, in the way that regressives are trying to do.
    I get the fact that you don’t like it when people decide not to play by your rule book and use terms that you don’t want used, regardless of their accuracy.
    Once again, I think it’s interesting that as long as you support the regressive agenda, you can say anything you want to anyone (as long as they’re not a fellow regressive) in as snotty, hateful and dishonest manner as can be mustered.

    Like

  27. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “I never tried to pass myself off as anything other than exactly who and what I am, the CEO of a organization taking a position based on years of involvement in public policy, and applying the collective experience of myself and our staff to an issue of importance.”
    What I recall you avoiding at The Union blog was any mention of AB32 or Prop 23 impacting revenues of your company, Sierra Business Council, which, as far as I can tell, is, strangely enough, also not by any stretch of the imagination a council of businesses.

    Like

  28. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    Listen to yourself, Mike. You are being every bit as judgmental, demonizing, snotty, hateful, and dishonest as you have accused others of being. How do you justify this?

    Like

  29. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Funny Greg how you can sit on your tush and assume everyone else does nothing.
    We supported these reform bills for more than 3 years as part of the California Constitutional Convention proposal, worked with other organizations to get them included in the California Forward reform agenda, met with legislators and staff to perfect the language, and did public education through forums and meetings to ensure people knew what the impact would be.
    We worked with B Corporation, the forerunner of the Public Benefit Corporations bill for more than 6 years, before they were even formed, as part of a Stanford University innovations in business program.
    Your guys sure complain a lot…I would love it if you would stop acting hatefully toward everyone else and actually do something productive. I have said it a dozen times here; we don’t need to agree on everything, but we could work together on the things we do agree on. But that is not possible as long as you act like buffoons.
    This is how your ilk hurries the ‘great divide’ and tears our nation down. This is why you are not patriots.

    Like

  30. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Regressive–absolutely valid word. I get them having trouble with it. It is accurate.

    Like

  31. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Kesti–here is the definition.
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/regressive

    Like

  32. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Thornton…
    “…it is the regressives who are constantly judging and demonizing people…”
    Really, faced with that, is there no glimmer of self awareness in you?

    Like

  33. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Greg, you know nothing about Sierra Business Council. I have 700 member businesses, and work regularly with business councils and organizations all over the state. This has nothing to do with you doubting the number or type of businesses and everything to do with you disagreeing with the policies we promote. Just be honest and admit it.
    Plus, I directly answered the question about SBC’s work relative to AB 32 related programs. I support AB 32 because I believe in it. I will be proud to implement it.
    Under ANY circumstances any revenue derived to a non-profit has to be retained for a recognized charitable purpose.
    Of course what you are seeking to do is divert peoples attention by attacking motives rather than discuss the ideas. It is a standard tactic and I am not stupid enough to do that with you.
    Get off you butt and do something good. The world is full of way too many lazy, complaining, complacent, self interested armchair critics.

    Like

  34. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    Thanks, Steve, but I already understood the word and, although The Free Dictionary doesn’t mention it, I also understand the derision Mike intends when he uses it, too. How do you suppose he justifies his hypocrisy?

    Like

  35. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Its ridiculous Michael–regressive is a real word, and it aptly describes how Mike sees their position. If Todd, George and Greg can call people communists, socialists and collectivists when the people they are describing clearly are not advocating for socialism as it is defined, Mike can call them regressive when it fits the definition.

    Like

  36. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    I agree that “regressive” is a real word and Mike certainly can use it as he has, and I said nothing that should indicate otherwise. Do you dispute that his intention in using the word as he has in this thread is to be judgmental and demonizing?

    Like

  37. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “…Stanford University innovations in business program…”
    Just missing one thing…now what was that..I wrote it down somewhere…Oh yeah.
    Note to self:
    Must stop driving business of California before innovating.

    Like

  38. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Must stop driving business “out” of California before innovating.
    Sorry.

    Like

  39. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Mr. D. KIng SB 201 was is all about keeping business in California. Right now if you want to do business as a public benefit corporation you have to be chartered in Maryland or Vermont.

    Like

  40. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Jeez Michael I am thinking about that overused line in The Untouchable, “Never bring a knife to a gunfight…”

    Like

  41. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Does SB14 make it easier to do business?

    Like

  42. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    I’ll take that to mean that you don’t dispute that Mike’s intention is to be judgmental and demonizing. Given that he accused those he chooses to call regressives of judging and demonizing others, he has made a hypocritical statement. I ask you, again, how you feel he justifies his hypocrisy?

    Like

  43. Michael R. Kesti Avatar
    Michael R. Kesti

    I intended but forgot to thank you for showing me just am infintesimal bit of respect by calling me “Michael” rather than “Kesti”. Thank you very much.

    Like

  44. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Must stop driving California citizens and businesses off the cliff, which AB32 is already doing, while the catastrophic ‘science’ behind it continues to collapse.
    Steve, I’ve never hidden my disdain for your rent seeking policy initiatives and your working to ensure a reworking of California energy generation that is destined to ruin the state, so I don’t know why you think that requires some sort of cathartic testimonial.
    It is about policy, it is about the science, it isn’t about partisan politics.
    Your Op-Eds in The Union, and your comments in their blog, even when challenged, danced around the fact you were the CEO of a company that would derive revenue from AB32 which was threatened by Prop 23. That is a lie by omission. You weren’t ‘just a guy like the other commenters who watched what was happening in Sacramento and shared his opinions’ which, at best, was a misrepresentation.

    Like

  45. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    This is for ‘middle of the road’ Steve Frisch, a repeat of an unanswered question: please, name some Republicans you’ve supported in the past three elections. Why did you choose them over their Democratic, Green, P&F or Lib opponents?

    Like

  46. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Michael, I think Mike is saying what he believes, that the position that many are taking here is regressive. That is not inherently demeaning.

    Like

  47. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    D. KIng–I do think that creating performance metrics for government agencies, boards, commissions and programs will help business in the long run by helping to force government activities to prove their worth. I also support sunset clauses for agencies, boards and commissions, which did not happen this year. I believe that if a government program does not meet its objectives it should go away.

    Like

  48. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Yeah I am just sick of you calling me a liar–its bullshyte. You want to argue the policy fine, you want to question my motives, take a flying leap. I want to implement AB 32 because it is good public policy. If my organization can speed that..more power to us. My original post stands, you don’t know a thing abut my organization. Do you think all businesses are represented by the US Chamber? I simply attract a different type of business owner, thats my niche.
    I have not voted for a Republican in a while, because they have turned into wild eyed reactionaries. I think my last Republican votes were Ted Owens twice, Mike Holmes, and Bruce McPherson in a state office. I voted for Conlon for Treasurer. I’m sure I have voted for a number of Republicans for local boards since I don’t make a practice of looking up party registration for non-partisan offices. (Of course Republicans now tout their party affiliation for non-partisan offices)
    But the idea that you judge a degree of moderateness by partisan voting record is kind of skewed, Republicans have been increasingly radical in their positions. My moderate positions trump party, so if the Republican has tilted so far right that they are extreme I may never vote for a Republican and still be moderate. That’s why the Republicans have become a permanent minority in this state.

    Like

  49. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    By the way Greg why is the “just a guy ….” part in quotes? I always signed editorials with my organizational affiliation if they were representing my organization. Anyone that wants to can go find out what I do. How do we find out what you do? Will you start posting your stock portfolio along with your comments?

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