Rebane's Ruminations
June 2011
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George Rebane

Archie&Meathead Apropos to the lively discussion at ‘True Value of Work and Caring Economics’, Harvard professor of government Harvey Mansfield contributed a telling piece about the “poor choices … students made in selecting their courses and majors.”  In ‘Sociology and Other Meathead Majors’ Dr Mansfield points out the distinction between education based on facts and that based on values.  And, of course, therein lays a root cause of rot in our workforce.  Majors in ‘values based’ subject areas are hard to sell on the labor markets.  And moreover, such majors are victims of the commercially useless leftwing ideologies that are rampant in the country’s schools.  That is a double burden that no employer, save the government, wants to bear.

Mansfield opines that “Archie Bunker was right to be skeptical of his son-in-law’s opinions.”, and goes on to say –

More fundamental, however, is the division within the university today, in America and everywhere, between science and the humanities. Science deals with facts but the humanities also have to deal with values. This is where the problem of bad choices arises. We think that one can have knowledge of fact but not of values—the famous “fact/value” distinction.

Science has knowledge of fact, and this makes it rigorous and hard. The humanities have their facts bent or biased by values, and this makes them lax and soft. This fact—or is it a value?—gives confidence and reputation to scientists within the university. Everyone respects them, and though science is modest because there is always more to learn, scientists sometimes strut and often make claims for extra resources. Some of the rest of us glumly concede their superiority and try to sell our dubious wares in the street, like gypsies. We are the humanists. 

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332 responses to “‘Meathead’ Majors”

  1. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    The world doesn’t need more psychologists, they need mechanics.

    Like

  2. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Well, we’ve finally gotten to the core of modern regressive thought.
    “We need to create a society and economy based upon the sage wisdom and insight of Archie Bunker!”

    Like

  3. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    You are always quoting Mao and Joseph so what is your point? LOL

    Like

  4. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    “The world doesn’t need more psychologists, they need mechanics.”…
    It seems to me that you could argue that Meathead Nation needs more psychologists…or at least more massage therapists.
    Personally, I don’t care how many degrees in Chicano Studies or Comparative Religions get issued, I’m just not real fond of paying for 3/4 of it.
    Aside from the nearly infinitely sized iron rice bowl that a modern university represents in terms of government largesse, there’s also the problem of student loans. Those things are like handing out mortgages to anyone that could fog a mirror, the main net effect was to drive up the cost of the goods purchased. You just know that I’ll get to bail that out too.
    Anyhow, things’ll keep on keepin’ on in Meathead Nation. Lots of malinvestment in things that have bad ROI, scads of handwaving about the good things that can be done with other peoples’ money. Whether it’s the hydrogen economy, modern WPA programs that simply disappear into the maw of state and local government, insanely complex health programs that do something I’m not really clear on, you can count on more good works.
    At least Obama closed down Gitmo, got the troops out of Afghanistan, didn’t start any new wars, and got the Patriot Act turned off.

    Like

  5. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Even if it were true, that I’m “always quoting Mao and Joseph”, which it isn’t, at least they were real people, Todd.
    However this thread has already illuminated another aspect of the “Great Divide”.
    Regressives value money and commerce above all else. Progressives believe that money and commerce are subservient to the needs of society. In short, money and commerce should be tools and used in the service of the betterment of humanity.
    Humanity should not be enslaved in service of commerce and capital.

    Like

  6. George Rebane Avatar

    “Humanity should not be enslaved in service of commerce and capital.” It sounds like some of us already know who will define the “needs of society”, and whose money will be “subservient” to such needs.
    MikeT, it sure would be good to get a few exemplars of such sustainable progressive societies so that we can set a proper course for our future, or know when to bid the pilgrims a bon voyage.
    BTW, in literary communications semi-quotes indicate a special emphases or unattributable quotes that someone may have said; direct quotes are used to repeat what someone actually said or wrote. Then who is attributed with saying, “We need to create a society and economy based upon the sage wisdom and insight of Archie Bunker!”

    Like

  7. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    As long as MikeT gets to decide the rules in his “workers paradise”, I bet we all know where he will be in that paradise. wink wink.

    Like

  8. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “At least Obama closed down Gitmo, got the troops out of Afghanistan, didn’t start any new wars, and got the Patriot Act turned off.”
    Don’t forget holding unemployment below 8% with passing of the Pelosi/Reid trillion$ Porkulus Bill.

    Like

  9. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    For all I know, the man isn’t real, he’s just a character on an XBox title. Maybe the man behind the throne is whoever programmed the Obama character in ‘Grand Theft America: Washington DC’.

    Like

  10. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Reading about meathead majors reminded me of a talk I couldn’t wait to be over at UC Berkeley’s 2011 cattle call commencement
    http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2011/05/16/benavidezcommencementspeech/
    Young (well, at 31, not that young; he picked up 10 AA degrees in California community colleges before transferring into Berkeley) Mr. Benevidez gave a proper lopsided left of center sermon to the captives at Cal’s old stadium. He’ll for sure be off to get his BA in Sociology Piled high and Deeper and have a good shot at actually being employed on a tenure track somewhere. Unlike most of his classmates.
    An interesting aside… when the College President (iirc) was detailing some of the wonderful work on campus, including mitigation of CO2 induced climate change, he had to stop and encourage some applause… I took it to mean there isn’t much enthusiasm among the 2011 Berkeley grads for shivering in the cold over iffy science.

    Like

  11. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Well, George maybe we have a few more examples if you and your friends weren’t constantly subverting even the slightest attempt.
    Can you give me any actual examples of where your perfect free market economy has ever worked?
    And by the way, unlike some of you, my ego isn’t so huge, that I think I should be “making the decisions”.
    I am however pretty clear that when you start looking to Archie Bunker as your spiritual master, it shouldn’t be any of you!

    Like

  12. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Mike
    Examples don’t seem to exist in modern times.
    George can confirm that. (perfect free market economies)

    Like

  13. George Rebane Avatar

    MikeT (and PaulE) – I wasn’t asking for perfect examples of economies that could serve as goals. Any of the imperfect ones that you consider adequate will do. I’m looking for any working examples of sustainable collectivism that could work in America.
    I have never claimed that a perfect free market exists now, but I can point to several imperfect free markets now and historically in the US that are better than what we have in America today. The economic ranking published annually by The Economist and others show the US down the list a way. We used to be well in the top five. We could go back to closer to such less regulated and less subsidized market places.

    Like

  14. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    No one has ever claimed there was such a thing as a “perfect free market economy”. Utopias are not an option.
    A market economy needs profit and loss. It’s the ‘loss’ side that tends to starve enterprises that need to be put out of their misery, and it’s the ‘loss’ signal that is generally missing in all of the government sponsored or controlled entities that our coersive leftist utopians are so fond of. Failed political initiatives don’t get starved, they get budget increases, sending ever more good money after bad.
    Here’s a blast from the past… Milton Friedman being interviewed by Phil Donahue in ’79, speaking to many of the points touched on by this thread…
    http://www.gold-speculator.com/youtube-videos/11809-milton-friedman-donahue-1979-a.html

    Like

  15. Dixon Cruickshank Avatar
    Dixon Cruickshank

    Nice try Thornton to try and spin away from your concept – nice going George – he only asked for 1, not 2 or 3, just 1 = epic fail as usual
    I haven’t commented here much because of your worthless neverending crap – at least this time you kept it under 5000 words I don’t want to read

    Like

  16. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Can you provide us with a few contemporary, though less than perfect, free market examples that we should be emulating.

    Like

  17. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    “Can you provide us with a few contemporary, though less than perfect, free market examples that we should be emulating.”…
    Do you mean existing free markets that aren’t used in the US? Something else?
    Honestly, I think this is a lot bigger question than commerce. What it really boils down to is whether you believe that the overall results are better from a mass of people all making individual decisions vs. codified regulations coming down from on high. The real world will provide a mixture of the two, but I think that people have a natural preference for one or the other.
    So, should the government choose your wages? how energy is produced? should it provide make-work to a huge group of people?
    The usual examples of free market failure are pretty boring. Of course you can’t allow companies to dump spent radioactive fuel rods in the creek, but I can’t say that there’s 40+% of GDP worth of regulatin’ and services to be done.
    The interesting corner case to me is lack of competition. At least there’s some push back on labor monopolies like public unions, but there are very strong natural tendencies towards centralization in some industries.
    The Friedmans of the world (who is painful to watch in his later years, too much in the way of crochety sloganizing) may be for the death of Chrysler, but the net effect is the same as abolishing antitrust law. You may not allow companies to combine to form oligopolies/monopolies, but die-off accomplishes the same end.

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  18. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    I was referring to countries that have adopted
    free market policies that you respect. Less than perfect of course.

    Like

  19. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    Sorry to indulge in my Typing Tourette’s, but there you go.
    Mr Emery, if you want to engage in an argument with a free market afficionado, what I’d suggest is going after the areas that really are problems.
    The strawman arguments against pollution are pretty played out, but I’ll suggest others.
    . As mentioned before, the problem of monopoly. Government of course is the largest form of this, but it’s worth examining. Natural production monopolies (cars, raw materials, computer components) exist in quite a few places.
    . Asymmetric risk. By this I mean the ability of people to make decisions with huge downside risk, but very little personal risk. CEO’s and financial traders, for instance, can make huge bets. If they win, they and their firm become rich, if they lose, they get fired. Lacking balance, the tendency is to put a billion dollars on black and spin.
    . National interest. Does it really make sense to live in a country that can’t make shoes? You’d better be really nice to the Chinese in a whole host of areas, or you’ll be cutting your own huaraches.

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  20. Mike Thornton Avatar

    The answer of course, Paul, is that they don’t have any examples where there policies have worked to enrich anyone but the oligarchs.
    In fact when it comes to the greatest example of capitalism’s success (being as a result of the New Deal policies of FDR) the freemarketeers want to roll all that back and pretend it never existed.
    And for Dixon, I told you before to relax and think some happy thoughts.
    Kicking poor Black women off welfare so their kids can be homeless, hungry and start working their way towards being the next prison generation will likely do it for you, I’m sure.
    The real story with all of this is that, as a result of regressive extremism and intransigence, the economy is indeed failing. We are likely on the edge of a real “Depression”.
    The sad part for regressives, is that the American people are tired of the “Manchurian Muslim” BS and are seeing through regressive deceptions. That’s why regressives and republicans are getting their lunch handed to them in special elections and recall efforts.
    And think of this, despite all of the screaming and hand wringing that FOX and regressive media has put forward over the last three years aimed at turning the public against Obama, the best that the regressives can muster when it comes to presidential candidates are “Mittens”, a 1/2 dozen FOX contributors, that are doing nothing but using “Trumped” up runs in order to personally enrich themselves and a hypocritical governor, who flies in a state owned helicopter to his son’s baseball game and then rides 100 yards in a limousine to his seat, because he’s too lazy to walk it!

    Like

  21. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Thornton, it may serve you well to travel a bit. The poorest among us has a higher standard of living than billions of people on earth; thank you capitalism (freedom).
    “don’t have any examples where there policies have worked to enrich anyone but the oligarchs.” Are you serious? If so, you now have zero, no make that negative, creditability.

    Like

  22. George Rebane Avatar

    Imperfect free market examples. Paul, I would look to what Singapore and Hong Kong SAR are doing today, and, of course, the US prior to, say, 1970.
    Since we know what government does now and what it did in these markets, we can use the good parts as models for a target market for the US. The tedious response to such a suggestion has always been ‘Well, do you really want to have or go back to …?’ thereby citing some onerous factor that has nothing to do with the establishment of a freer market than we have now. And please don’t again misunderstand, GOVERNMENT DOES HAVE A ROLE IN SETTING UP AND MAINTAINING A (LESS THAN PERFECT) FREE MARKET, primarily by enforcing the rules, and not choking the market with added rules over time as it has done.

    Like

  23. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Mikey , you realize that 1% of Americans control 40% of this country’s wealth don’t you?
    And you know that the gap is widening, right?
    I’ve actually been to some pretty poverty stricken places in the world and I can also tell you that there is an increasing number of people, right here in the good old USA, that are living in cars and under bridges, sleeping in doorways and on bus benches.
    I actually see them and talk to them on a regular basis. So do me a favor and get off your high horse, since if there is anyone who doesn’t know what their talking about at this moment, I’m pretty sure it’s you!

    Like

  24. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Mikey, you are so right. The American welfare recipient has two TVs and as much food as they need. The next generation of criminals are going to be he same ones we have always had, black, white or blue, they are lawbreakers. The liberal welfare state starting with the Great Society said to women that a husband was to be replaced by the state and they were right. The state takes care of the offspring from birth thru incarceration to death.

    Like

  25. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    The state takes care of the offspring from birth thru incarceration to death.
    LOL!

    Like

  26. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Another example of shallow regressive thought.
    “Welfare recipients have two TVs and as much (high calorie/low nutrition) food as they need.”

    Like

  27. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    MT, Looks like you can copy paste, wow!

    Like

  28. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Mike, Paul I have to ask again–why are we here?
    It just seems totally futile.

    Like

  29. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    So it appears Frisch is in agreement then with MT’s posts. We knew you were pulling our leg when you said you were a fan of capitalism. Liars never prosper.
    Paul at least has the intelligence to debate here.

    Like

  30. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “Resistance is futile!” – Locutus of Blog
    Really, Steve, how many times have you written such things, yet you stay here. Why?

    Like

  31. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “Welfare recipients have two TVs and as much (high calorie/low nutrition) food as they need.”
    That actually reminds me of a Soviet propaganda campaign that backfired. Pravda (or some other house organ) had an interview with a supposedly poor US urban black man who spoke much like Thornton. The piece included a photo of the guy out on the street in his bombed-out neighborhood, leaning against his primer-gray wreck of a used car.
    Instead of the fellow’s downtrodden misery, “middle class” Soviets focused on … he has a car? Something they couldn’t afford.

    Like

  32. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    At least in the USA we still have the choice to live in poverty or to work ourselves out of it. Their are much worse things in the world than an income gap; just ask anyone in North Korea.

    Like

  33. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    Hey all I am doing is asking them what the heck the value proposition is for them being here. It seems the same things are repeated, no one ver changes their minds, no real learning is going on, and one just has to suffer the slings and arrows of incivility to participate. I mean really guys, what is the real value?

    Like

  34. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Do the poor in the USA have access to state provided (taxpayer funded) health care? YES.
    Facts:
    Do the poor in the USA have access to State provided (taxpayer funded) food ?YES
    Do the poor in the USA have access to state provided (taxpayer funded) shelter? YES
    Do the poor in the USA have access to state provided (taxpayer funded) education? YES
    Do the poor in the USA have the freedom to choose their religion? YES
    I send the bulk of my annual charity to Africa because the kids would not have food, shelter, education or health care without my funds. My extremely high US taxes cover the bulk of my ‘local’ philanthropy (see services I pay for via taxes above).

    Like

  35. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    I think there are too many who actually think you’ll finally learn something, Steve. Personally, I have my doubts.
    Hmmm…. political science… that’s a meathead major, isn’t it? So is rhetoric, Peeline’s major. Keachie’s was history. I see a pattern here…

    Like

  36. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF, perhaps I am wrong, but I believe you and yours are arguing your case here on RR for the same reason that I and others are arguing our case – it is for those critically thinking, objective, and yet undecided RR readers who peruse these comment streams with their various threads. Neither of us harbor much hope of changing each others’ minds.
    To your credit, it appears that you all are giving us your best shots here. And, of course, so are we. The 40% undecideds may benefit from such apologetics coming from politically polarized adherents when we stick to discussing ideas – which now in the large we do.
    Thoughts?

    Like

  37. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    I learn from Paul and I hope the favor is returned by me or another ‘radical’ commenter.

    Like

  38. Mike Thornton Avatar

    That’s a really good question, Steve!
    I’m (frankly) getting bored with it.
    The level of selfishness and hate from the regressive crowd is not only tiring, but toxic.
    It’s really sad how they love to attack the poor and disenfranchised as they lick the boots of the rich and powerful.
    While I really don’t wish it on any of them (maybe with the exception of TJ), I’d love to see any of these people spend a year living the life of someone in poverty in America today.
    Perhaps they would then actually find out how things really are as compared to what Limbaugh and Beck tell them they are.

    Like

  39. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Thornton… just to fill in the blanks… are you in the meathead or non-meathead major camp? Sociology, perhaps?

    Like

  40. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Not one thing said has been an attack on the poor or disenfranchised.
    I can’t stand Rush or Beck or? You can’t pigeon hole all the ‘liberty-lovers’ into the same camp and that is obviously frustrating you [notice the countless times my opinion has not jived with Greg’s, Wmartin, Rebane, Todd, etc]. Your abuse is evidence that your opinion is fallible, emotional and void of fact/reason/logic and most importantly solutions to the problems of our era.
    I strongly urge you to continue the debate without malice and with a focus on SOLUTIONS; or leave the debate to the grown-ups.

    Like

  41. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    I CHOOSE not to.
    “I’d love to see any of these people spend a year living the life of someone in poverty in America today. Posted by: Mike Thornton | 03 June 2011 at 11:54 AM

    Like

  42. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    George, I think that is a very good response. That is why I come here. Thank you for your candor.
    I only wish the other commentators were as clear and forthright with their answers.
    Greg, I mean really, is this the way you choose to communicate with your peers? Demeaning people is a waste of time. I really don’t care if you think I am a meathead, I know you are Archie. Just remember Archie was a parody, a cartoon of the worst tendencies of American society. I will proudly wear the meathead label with you to prove that you are Archie to the 40%.
    I believe that is illustrated even more clearly everyday.

    Like

  43. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    First, I was a meathead fan, Steve, and Archie Bunker always was a left wing caricature of a conservative buffoon. That includes the original British version.
    Second, as far as my rhetoric here is concerned, I only occasionally stoop to that level when Thornton (and, all too often, you) deserves some of their own medicine returned, with interest.

    Like

  44. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Besides, Todd J is the Archie. I am the walrus. goo goo g’joob
    You see, Steve, I’m not a conservative. Todd knows that, Russ knows that. George has figured it out too, and your (and Peeline’s) working “to prove that you are Archie to the 40%” is every bit as ugly as you charge I’ve ever been.
    I do think you are a lying (by omission), pompous, rent-seeking ass, but that’s another discussion for another day.

    Like

  45. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Greg we need a box to put you in NOW!!!!
    You see, Steve, I’m not a conservative. Todd knows that, Russ knows that. George has figured it out too” Posted by: Greg Goodknight | 03 June 2011 at 01:24 PM

    Like

  46. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Let me see. Hmmm. In response to Thorton and his challenge to live as apoor person. If I am not mistaken, most of us started out poor (but when a child hardly noticed) then as we worked real hard we decided to get educated, stay out of jail, off the drugs and off the streets. The results are astounding! In this place called America, we poor folks got ahead! Now we do our best to never forget our roots and we are all quite giving of our hard earned money and time to those less fortunate. We just don’t wear it on our sleeves like liberals. My guess is people on the left like Thornton have non of those attributes and have lived off the system in one way or another all their lives. For instance, Frisch and Thorton belong to non profits that take tax money and redistribute it. I bet they take their cut and probably have benefits. While their outrage at we on the right gets louder and louder and yet we are working the private sector where there are not “benefits” unless we pay for them. I really don’t care that loony lefty’s call us names, we are the walrus koo kooka choo.

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  47. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Mikey, you simply cannot deny that the overall tone of the regressives is one of demonizing the poor, while lionizing the rich. If you’re not part of that camp, then good for you!
    But when you start making statements about all the great benefits that the poor in America are getting, you need to get your ass out on the pavements and see what it’s really like!
    You might as well be parroting Beck and Limbaugh, because that is exactly the type of propaganda they use in order to dehumanize the enemies of their corporate overlords.
    The truth of that matter is that, it’s the Wall Street banksters and captains of industry who have sold out our country and crashed our economy, not some poor person looking for a place to sleep tonight and maybe getting a few dollars in food stamps!
    It pisses me off, to no end, to listen to a bunch of pompous idiots, talk about things that they no nothing about.
    If you want to know about my “major”, it comes from growing up and living on a lot of those mean streets. I’d didn’t learn what I know from a book in a college class at Berkeley. I’ve been out in the world for a long time and I’ve learned the vast majority of what I know from living it and/or seeing it first hand, up close and personal!

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  48. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Greg, I don’t really care if you are a conservative, you are a combative, mean, irrational, and disrespectful voice in almost every exchange you have. That was the primary characteristic of Archie.

    Like

  49. George Rebane Avatar

    Gentlemen – are we back in the mudball innings? Hopefully this is just half-time and we’re getting a little strident exercise before settling back down to serious, albeit more pacific, business.
    In this regard, I haven’t seen anyone grapple the fortunes of the country as our technical workforce shrinks, and our non-technical (and overwhelmingly innumerate) workforce grows. Takers?

    Like

  50. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Frisch, you get the respect from me that you have earned. You’ve made it clear trashing my good name is your goal here, with “prove that you are Archie to the 40%” a clear statement of intent to defame.
    Thanks, I needed that. Do you have the same “staff attorney” as “Robert Lou”? Ask them about it.

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