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May 2011
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George Rebane

KVMR news director Paul Emery commenting on ‘Right Wing Extremism in Action: Tea Party Houston’ introduced Riane Eisler’s Caring Economics into the wide-ranging discussion in that post’s comment stream.  Paul Emery’s concern there was that Eisler’s ideas are so compelling and, at the same time, revolting to conservatives, that they find it too hot to handle and simply want to change the subject instead of confronting head on its solutions to society’s problems.  I personally was accused twice of doing so after answering Paul’s charges (BTW, readers should know that Paul is a friend, the ‘editor’ of my regular KVMR commentary, a student of the human condition, and one of the leading light’s in the local left’s intellectual  pantheon.  I am grateful that his observations and critiques generously grace RR’s comment streams.)

By any measure, Eisler is a left-wing economist with strong feminist overtones.  The above link provides an excellent summary of her Caring Economics.  The purpose of this post it to provide a forum for a discussion of Eisler’s ideas for a brave and caring new world.  We begin appropriately with Paul’s most recent lament about capitalism –

One of the problems with capitalism as it is heralded by the self described conservatives is that it places no value on the work being done, only on whether it turns a profit. To place a value on the importance of the work being done is an evolution that Ms. Eisler embraces.  Doesn't the work of raising intelligent, educated and responsible children have more value than the manufacturing of cigarettes for example?  How is the true value of the work we do established?  It's a huge question that no one wants to talk about.

So let’s begin by talking about the ‘true value of work’.  (I have the honor of being not only a “self-described conservative”, but an ascribed conservative who has enjoyed that appellation from far and wide, bestowed over many years.)  Value itself is usually understood to be “the worth of something in terms of the amount of other things for which it can be exchanged or in terms of some medium of exchange.”   The ‘other things’ may be person-to-person specific, or person-to-market specific – here it takes to two tango.

‘True value’ of anything is a general concept foreign to most people, except perhaps those contemplating the workings of command economies.  Most progressives quickly tend toward command economies when in such discussions they are invited to bare their souls.  So in this sense, there exists no ‘true value of work’ that can be applied in the large where people are free to bargain and trade.  It has and continues to be a socialist shibboleth.

Now to the value of “the work of raising intelligent, educated and responsible children”.  In dollars and cents that value is already expressed precisely by the parents of the child as they invest in his support and education while he remains in their household.  From an economic perspective, the kid returns little beyond the hopefully net joy that is provided for by the human relationships involved.  And the little darlin’ doesn’t even provide that to the rest of us.

We stand still for transfer payments to benefit another’s child in the hope that the present value of the kid’s future economic contributions will somehow make worthwhile today’s expenditures.  As a taxpayer, I don’t need to pay for the parents’ marginal labor in bringing up their kid.  If they have wealth generating jobs, they already charge enough for their labor there to account for such ‘home expenses’.  The last thing that we need is an armed and uniformed marshal at my door to collect the marginal tax for paying some mother to raise her kids.  To an extent, I think we already have a foot in such a world.

Eisler’s new brand of command socialism would have us succumb to exactly such government assignations of the ‘true value of working mothers’ to be an added cost borne by the (all together now) ‘rich’.

Let me conclude this post by bringing forward the relevant comment thread from ‘Right Wing Extremism …’ to Paul’s above opening salvo.  Notice that Paul will introduce a new idea, “true capitalism”, in his response below.  This is another notion inaccessible to most of us.

 


" Doesn't the work of raising intelligent, educated and responsible children have more value than the manufacturing of cigarettes for example."…
It depends on how much they're worth on the open market.
If you view children as a capital investment and, if anything, the human race is entirely too good at producing them, raising good ones would have the same effect as any other infrastructure. There's an upfront cost followed by a payoff over time, and cultures who are bad at it will be overtaken by those that aren't, everything else being equal.
Going forward, I suspect that the value of your average person will drop over time. In a country made of up 'consumers' rather than 'citizens' (tip o' the hat to James Howard Kunstler), perhaps the average person's main job will be to behave themselves, watch the 3d telescreen, and eat their soy loaf with as little fuss as possible. In US society, it certainly looks like increased efficiencies in work combined with the increased size of a welfare state produces that result.
The basic problem of providing a minimum standard of living really is an interesting sort of conundrum. If one is supplied, how do you avoid sapping the energy from most of the people receiving it? There'll always be a group who through disability or otherwise, simply can't do their part of course.
The few times and places that have made an attempt seem to substitute the tyranny of having to make your own way with either religion (Mormons perhaps) or the peer pressure that goes along with homogeneity (Sweden). That being said, the US is a big place. There's really little to stop someone from starting their own exercise in utopia (Thorntonville?), where the rubber hits the road is when that utopia is imposed on others.
Posted by: wmartin | 31 May 2011 at 02:51 PM

Paul, I have brought up a similar issue countless times. I believe that our experiences help create our values (as individuals and as a nation). Our values drive our decisions/actions. Experiences (education) is paramount. Check this out: http://www.johnadamsacademy.com/
Your logic concerning "one of the problems with capitalism… it places no value on the work being done" doesn't make sense.
By definition any product/service must provide value or it would be worthless. How could a biz be profitable without providing good/service of value? Or said another way, how could a biz be profitable via providing a worthless good/service?
(excluding tax payer funded entities)
Posted by: Mikey McD | 31 May 2011 at 02:59 PM

Mikey, wmartin
What you say is true but it only has to do with Marketplace capitalism. True capitalism would place a value on work that is being done that currently has no compensation. As more and more jobs disappear because of automation and exportation of manufacturing we need to look at new and expansive definitions of the true value of work and labor and just compensation for that work.
This is just an example: an executive in a tobacco company makes a product that kills people and may have a salary of millions but a mother of two children, which is a full time job for at least 20 years receives no compensation for her work in raising the next generation of productive citizens.
Posted by: Paul Emery | 31 May 2011 at 03:21 PM

"This is just an example: an executive in a tobacco company makes a product that kills people and may have a salary of millions but a mother of two children, which is a full time job for at least 20 years receives no compensation for her work in raising the next generation of productive citizens."
Sorry, but when I was a widowed father of one son, I never thought I was raising a son 'for no compensation', nor have I ever desired to have my taxes be paid to someone else to raise their child.
If they're raising their children to be productive and honorable citizens that should be compensation enough. If it isn't, I'd suggest she should have found a different line of work.
While I might not like tobacco, pictures of tobacco farmers remain on several denominations of our currency, and it remains a legal product. Addicts might have a love/hate relationship with the leaf, but no one forced them to start the habit and if they need help to quit, there is help available. However, we shouldn't be so quick… cigarette addicts tend to die young and have fewer lifetime medical bills and Social Security payouts. They're doing us a service.
Posted by: Greg Goodknight | 31 May 2011 at 04:05 PM

Please continue the discussion of Caring Economics in the comment stream of this post.

Posted in , , ,

131 responses to “‘True Value of Work’ and ‘Caring Economics’”

  1. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Ben E wrote

    Our preK -12 education system has been steadily on the downslide for decades, especially in California since the late early to mid 70’s.
    We are teaching to the test instead of critical thinking or trade skills. Text books and predetermined tests have never taught, teachers do.

    BS. For one thing, the lower the SAT of a college grad, the higher the chance they are a K-12 teacher 10 years after graduation. In other words, more than half the K-12 teaching corps are below average. All too many are way below average, and the profession hasn’t done a great job of purging their ranks of the worst of the worst.
    Second, text books have taught. It just takes a good text and a reader with a clue how to read for understanding.
    To summarize, a good book beats the average K-12 teacher any day of the week.
    Great teachers are another thing entirely, but the unions don’t make it easy to treat them better than the lousy ones.

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  2. George Rebane Avatar

    Russ, the answer is an emphatic YES.
    Good point GregG. For years I have taught students in my universtiy classes (and now in high school TechTest seminars) that it takes only two things for a motivated poor third world young person to change his life and grow up to compete with American workers – a math book and a candle. Invariably the class gets real quiet as that thought sinks in.

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  3. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Ben, what are your ‘trade imbalance’ solutions? How will your solutions change our foreign policy?

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  4. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    You are making the claim that American workers need to compete with third world nations.
    I moment of clarity just hit me. I am not saying this in a negative context at all but a statement of reality. You seemed to be very comfortable with your positions and are honest.
    A global labor market is a perfect way to create laissez-faire/ Ayn Rand style capitalism. All labor will be competing for bottom end wages/ benefits.
    Is this the idea? The makers and takers social dichotomy.

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  5. Ben Emery Avatar

    Mickey,
    I will be writing a piece on the failure of Free Trade and what the solutions are to reverse the devastating policies to the American workforce. I will let you know when it is ready.

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  6. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE – I am indeed making that claim about American workers as long as we must import the stuff that maintains an acceptable quality of life for us.
    I am reminded that we will be no richer – indeed, we will be poorer – if we attempt to create wealth by sealing our borders, and then mandate that a person emptying bed pans will be paid the same as an engineer designing a new medical scanning system.
    Returning to Eisler’s Caring Economics: her ideas were presaged by B.F. Skinner (father of behaviourism and operant conditioning) in his ‘Walden Two’ published soon after WW2. It’s a good read, and not too long.
    Please let me know when your work on Free Trade becomes available. Perhaps you would then like to write a piece for RR in which the reader may download a pdf of it.

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  7. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Ben, US workers are already competing with 3rd world labor, you just haven’t noticed where all the stuff you’re buying has been made.

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  8. Ben Emery Avatar

    My mom grew up in NY City during the depression WWII era. They were taught with the classics and absent of any real textbook curriculum. It was the teachers who loved what they were teaching not a textbook telling them what to teach. My mom and many relatives/ friends are teachers from pre-school to professors at universities and they would almost unanimously agree with the proposal I put forward earlier. It is teachers who create excitement for learning not the textbook, the latter is exactly what we have turned towards over the past 3 or 4 decades.
    Another factor I didn’t mention earlier that connects the two issues of US wages and academic achievement is the SES and support at home. When parents are to tired, stressed out, or not there at all the achievement levels drop.
    I think you might like my next statement, it is the PCing of America that has destroyed much of the desire of high standards and goals.
    George as you saw my son did not get a PC upbringing by me and neither did his sister. What I have tried to instill into them is; If you put good effort in you get good out, you put bad effort in you get bad out.

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  9. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Hey there
    I was following this conversation precisely several hours ago awhile riding on Amtrack to Sf and sent an absolutely brilliant response only to have it disappear into cyperspace. I’ll see what I can do to recreate it but not now.

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  10. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Ben, in the realm of math, physical science and technology, to a great extent the textbooks are the great classics until one gets into grad school, and even then texts are still quite common.
    However, even in the liberal arts, you don’t need a teacher telling you to read the great classics of literature and philosophy. Just check them out of the library, or download one of the 33,000 that are free for the asking from Project Gutenberg.

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  11. Ben Emery Avatar

    Hate to break it to you but there are other subjects that matter. I am a soft science and history guy. Finding commonalities and correlations in the natural world, on issues, and on policies that affect our daily lives.
    The point on texts are those with agenda’s want to strip the teachings of civics, science, arts, and history from the curriculum of our future generations. This will be done through standardize testing from text books funded and written by the oligarchs at the top. Testing only what they deem important such as Supply Side economics is a viable economic theory when all evidence shows it is only viable to the top 1%. Or that many of the prominent founders weren’t Christian but Deist and our nation was founded with the idea that we could govern ourselves. Not as individualists but as representatives of our own government instead of the super elites dictating to the rest of the us what the rules of the nation shall be.

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  12. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    I find that opinion fascinating. I know you’re an intelligent man who I think was a first generation citizen. I also know you served in the military, I believe you said Air Force or was that someone else? Do you think the GI Bill had a great impact on the era of engineers, scientists, and generally strong economy of the 50’s through the 70’s? I do. I think without the ability for all those soldiers to get a higher education we wouldn’t of sustained such a long period of strong economic and super power growth. The further we move away from such policies the worse our economy gets for average Americans and the more we become a economically rigid society. We rate 33 or 34 out of 34 OECD nations in income inequality and social mobility. How is that fulfilling the American dream?

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  13. Ben Emery Avatar

    That is supposed to be income equality not inequality.

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  14. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Hard science, history and music, here.
    Hate to break it to you, but the testing didn’t drive schools into the mud. Locally, there was no testing for years, and the Grass Valley School District had half their kids in the bottom quartile for the very first test sitting circa ’98, and it was accurate. No teaching to the test and they were failing miserably in math and language. Actually having an objective measure forced upon them was long in coming and sorely needed.
    The architects of that failure, Superintendent Jon Byerrum and Hennessey Principal and later Ass’t Super Linda Brown, have since retired to a cushy pension. Their math crippled students are still going through the system but the worst has passed.
    I’m not sure it’s worth trying to make sense of your last three sentences.

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  15. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Reading BenE’s words scares the crap oot of me. How can a intelligent person actually believe what he is writing? We all went through schools and we, those of us in our 50’s and 60’s were the generation after WW2 that were the beneficiaries of success. We then watched as unions and trial lawyers took over and the PC police were passing judgement on everyone with common sense. The steel industry in the 60’s was the first one I paid attention too and if I recall, the Japanese and South Koreans started competing with ours and soon ours was kaput. Labor costs and their countries protectionist policies started the demise.
    The cost of labor is the problem. We Americans built a great country on smarts and hard work. When we allowed the left to take over our educational systems and the legal system, that began the demise of us. Someone used Toyota as an example here. Toyota and all of Japan have been in economic stagnation since 1990. They don’t even make enough babies to sustain their race! Toyota started opening plants here in the South mainly and guess what the difference with their compatriots in Detroit is? Unions! Same with Walmart, the largest consumer goods seller on the planet. So, BenE needs to simply realize his ideas are what have actually led to the demise of America and the educational system, not the solution to a rebirth. We have to change the disastrous policies implemented by the left and return to our successful roots.

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  16. Mikey McD Avatar

    I am pleased that TJ brought up labor unions so I did not have to :). Look at how many jobs Walmart and Toyota created over the past few decades and compare that to GM or Ford.
    And my earlier question regarding public education:
    Do you assign any blame to the various teacher unions?
    And, speaking of classics- check out this education revolution in our backyard… http://www.johnadamsacademy.com/

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  17. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Careful, Ben – “What I have tried to instill into them is; If you put good effort in you get good out, you put bad effort in you get bad out.”
    Sounds like a free market to me.
    What about the ones that don’t put in a good effort? We mandate a good outcome anyway.
    So you teach your kids one thing and advocate another.
    At least your kids got the better deal.

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  18. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE – my bio is available under my picture (left column), and more experiences are collecting under ‘My Story’ (right column).
    Our schooling system in the humanities is pretty much defunct now. I’ll post more on this later today. But getting an education in science and technology does not mean that the graduate comes out ignorant of history, literature, economics, … . But the problem comes when the humanities student wants to sell his labor. The buyers are no longer that plentiful in our economy (save government), and they are non-existent overseas (save teaching English).
    The OECD survey results are suspect on inferring that QoL depends on their measure of income inequality, and totally off on social mobility in America. Probably more needs to be said here about that.

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  19. J Cutter Avatar
    J Cutter

    Mikey – As they say, don’t hate the player, hate the game. At their genesis, teacher’s unions, or all unions in general, took what they could in an effort to represent their constituency. The educational system is flawed, that’s for sure, but by attacking the hands-on educators and not addressing the administrative and private industry-provider contracts to the system, it sounds like yet another offense to the worker. You cannot slash and burn without impacting the teachers compensation, so how do you get there?
    And Walmart and Toyota are great examples of how a lack of worker’s representation contributes to our societal inequities (not to mention their exploitation of tariff-free, free trade laws). Their ‘gains’ came it a great expense to our national health.
    And as for your John Adams Academy ‘revolution’!?! Are you serious in endorsing an LDS/Mormon view of the world? This is your solution to what ails us? I have been around the ‘church’ all my life, and I can assure you this will not fly in the eyes of most the world with which we must engage & compete, or with the majority of the true American middle if they were aware of the guiding principles. Their adoption of ‘Patriot’ cover just reinforces my point that there is a dangerous melding of extremist views into the tea party mentality.

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  20. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    Here is a great book on income inequality. In the book they breakdown the US by states and the social ills that come along with income inequality.
    http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence

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  21. George Rebane Avatar

    Regarding govt subsidized education and income inequality. My experience as a systems engineer, then scientist, on the bleeding edge was pretty typical of a large class of technical workers, and therefore worth noting. Coming off active duty (Army Artillery) in 1965, I re-entered the workforce as an junior engineer with a big aerospace company. ALL technology companies urged their technical staffs to increase their educational levels. They did this through compensating the worker for tuition and school materials (books) at the conclusion of a successfully completed course. Hourly workers were even given time off with pay to attend classes. I was a salaried worker and received no such consideration, we were expected to get our advanced degrees while carrying a full project load.
    As a veteran I also got on the GI Bill and got a small (pittance) check from the government. But as a young married with kids, every bit helped. Nevertheless, the big goad and help was that my capitalist employers saw me as someone of greater value to them with more advanced technical degrees under my belt. And they rewarded me incrementally and well as I made progress in grad school. Enabled by the new things I was constantly learning, I rewarded them well by inventing, designing, and building stuff that let them compete, sell, and make a profit. And this exchange was industry wide as we knew by constantly being hustled and interviewed by other aerospace companies. None of us took time off to go to school; we worked our jobs to fullest, and busted our butts studying in every spare moment and well into the night.
    This went on for years – and again, I and my peers, we all did it. By the time Reagan invited Gorbachev’s and his general staff to visit our aerospace companies in the early eighties, they saw a technology development Goliath unknown in the world, building newer and more capable systems by the day for commerce and war. They went home, noodled on what they saw, and decided it was time to throw in the towel.
    But that was then, when America was still populated by workers untainted by the new educational programs ushered in by the Great Society. In the eighties this began to change as Americans began taking easier paths to riches and glory through biz and law schools, and grade schoolers began to study self-esteem. The slack in technical schools and jobs was picked up by foreigners who came from countries where a ‘math book and candle’ was still the ticket to a good life. And with the freedoms of America rolled in, their advent on these shores was also the stepping stone to riches. Talk about being a socially mobile country.
    Teaching to a test. Never denigrate this new condemnation by the teachers’ unions. Arguably the most successful large educational programs are run by the US military, all branches. They have always taken in young people from all walks of life and with a wide range of mental assets. And very quickly they have turned these people into highly qualified operators and maintainers of the most sophisticated systems and equipments on earth. Their secret is an extremely formalized (algorithmic) method of training the hallmark of which is ‘teaching to a test’. (All commissioned and non-commissioned officers are taught the methodology.) And contrary to socialist propaganda, such an approach does not turn out automatons and one-trick ponies, but capable and confident graduates who have a solid productive knowledge base that serves as a launch pad for American ingenuity while in the military, and later in civilian life.
    It was this kind of education, first ‘mass produced’ during WW2, that turned out young people by the millions with the guts and gumption to hit the trade schools and colleges after the war, and make themselves into the envied workforce that they became. But the bottom line was that they learned skills which employers were willing to buy. Working together, both made money and built a country in an era that Americans of all ages now celebrate with nostalgia and longing. That may explain why current government schools do their best to revise and revile the history of that epoch.
    Income inequality: In an economy the most popular measure of this is the Gini Index which the UN now regularly compiles for all nations. It is also cited by organizations like OECD, in the process shedding more heat than light. I have explained how this works here
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2009/03/our-new-course-is-declared.html
    The problem with rating countries on the Gini Index is that the index is double valued. Both high and low values of the index lead to very little wealth creation (GDP) and a low QoL. And in the mid-range there is poor correlation between Gini Index and QoL. In short, the index is technically correct, but using it as feedback for public policy does not work too well.
    Finally, here is a short blurb I wrote on ‘Income Inequality and Education’ that explains the mechanisms of income evolution which separates the educated from the mis-educated with the passing of the years. http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/files/income-inequality-and-education2.pdf

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  22. Ben Emery Avatar

    Scott,
    Like many people we all don’t fit neatly into a single box. As an individual and family man I am very conservative but socially I am a populist/ progressive.
    I wouldn’t characterize working hard as a conservative free market idea at all.
    What is being missed here is the exploitation of workers. The labor movement was about work conditions, a fair days wage for a fair days labor, and economic policies that benefited the vast majority of the population not just a small few at the top. Like any large institutions labor unions became corrupt and unaccountable. Unions do more good than harm but need to tweak how they operate to match the 21st century. A 6 to 7% unionized private (public is about the same %) work force has little to do with our current economic woes.
    It has much to do with the deregulation (CDO, derivative market) of the banks and the dismantling of the firewall between commercial and lending banks- Glass Steagall.

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  23. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE, you might be interested that US Govt’s Bureau of Labor Statistics corroborates what we all have witnessed across the country. Yes, about 6.9% of the private sector workers are unionized, but that percentage jumps five times to 36.2% for government workers. As I have endlessly recounted on these pages, therein lies a large part our national fiscal problem.
    http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

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  24. Ben Emery Avatar

    Mickey,
    Walmart is the #1 American employer and its key labor policy is to keep people just under the hour threshold to receive benefits and they then advocate for their workers to apply for government assistance. Where is the accountability?

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  25. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Who set the “hours” threshold? Now you see part of the problem.

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  26. Mikey McD Avatar

    Do the employees of Walmart have a choice? YES.
    Walmart’s policy on keeping people just under the hour threshold to receive benefits actually provides more jobs; something I assume even the labor unions are for.

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  27. Mikey McD Avatar

    jcutter: please do not construe my critique of the Teachers Union as a critique on the teachers. I would venture to say that I have more teachers in my family tree than you and I consider their work to be a high calling.
    Teacher Union Facts:
    Excellent teachers are paid the same as crappy teachers.
    You can’t get rid of a crappy teacher.
    Teachers are forced to join the union (with ‘opt-out’ privileges).
    Kids and education are not even mentioned in CTA’s mission statement “Who We Are”!
    Opinion: why is higher compensation (‘greed’?) a virtuous characteristic for Union members and not for Wall St. Bankers?
    I am glad that our education discussion gave you a stage to vent your hatred of LDS, Mormons, and the Tea Party. Feel better now?

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  28. Ben Emery Avatar

    Mickey,
    When a walmart moves to an area it undercuts the local businesses and puts them out of business, it can do this with all the subsides/ tax exemptions given to the company to build and move to a community and with profits from a totally different region. Over 150 local business on average go under with in the first two years. So the answer is “NO” they really don’t have much choice. If we changed our trade policies and import tariffs would walmart have the choice of doing business within the US or not? Yes. If they chose to stay workers wages would rise due to the fact they are not competing with powerless oppressed labor and the productive economy would recover. If they chose to leave local business would fill the gap of the absence of the one stop superstore, creating a more multiplier effect productive economy. The only entities that profit from our free trade agreements are transnational corporations, international banks, and the trade organizations themselves.

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  29. Ben Emery Avatar

    Todd,
    The people set the hour threshold. We all know you dislike and distrust the American workers.

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  30. Gorge Amigo Avatar
    Gorge Amigo

    Isn’t Todd an American worker?

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  31. George Rebane Avatar

    Here’s a piece and reference on a more true picture of what happens when Walmart moves in.
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2008/07/big-box-buy-loc.html

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  32. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Again BenE is not making any sense. I am a American worker Ben, in the private sector. Are you? Walmart hires people up to a certain hourly number just like the County and the City does. Because once they pass the threshold set by your buddies in government, the rules all change and become enormously complicated. There becomes a mountain of paperwork and companies don’t like that as you can guess. So, our position is get rid of these thresholds and leave business and labor alone. Let them work out there own contracts and keep the government out. You would see millions of full time jobs created if this was done.
    Also, BenE, if the businessman did not create the business which needed a employee, then what would these people do? I suppose you never delved in to that have you?

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  33. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    In the military do they take a persons aptitude and move them in that direction? Or do they say they have a position to fill despite the ability of an individual person? I am talking about the development of individual soldiers not during emergency situations.
    Like most families mine has had many people in the military, right now I have at least 6 nieces/ nephews and many more second cousins I remember being born serving in the military. My father in law was career air force and worked as an engineer with the Star War program. My Dad is air force and uncles were army, and navy. One of my uncles received a silver star in WWII. I was thinking about joining the marines in my early 20’s and went to my elders for advice and every single one of them encouraged me to stay out of the military unless our country needed me, I think that was sound advice. I have given my son and daughter the same advice.

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  34. Mikey McD Avatar

    “The only entities that profit from our free trade agreements are transnational corporations, international banks, and the trade organizations themselves.”
    You left a few more entities off your “who profits from our free trade agreements list” -specific to Walmart: “every family that shops at Walmart saving thousands a year, the other stores/services that every family can ‘hire’ with their savings from Walmart, every employee of Walmart, every shareholder of Walmart, every pension recipient who owns Walmart, the countless producers (here and abroad) who wholesale/supply Walmart with goods, local government agencies who receive sales tax revenues from Walmart, etc etc.
    To claim that employees of Walmart don’t have a choice is irrational. Walmart isn’t a North Korea Gulag.

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  35. Ben Emery Avatar

    Before Walmart existed at the level it does today, what did people do? How did they survive? They worked and shopped at locally owned business that had an interest in their employee’s well being, lives, and commmunities. The money stayed in their communities instead of going to headquarters in Arkansas. Bob’s soccer shop owners owned a home in our neighborhood. They spent their money at local owned business’s recirculating the money and actually cared about its costumers outside of profit, they were helping raise the youth in our community. The Waltons and Walmart shareholders only care about the next quarter numbers not whether little Johnny is doing well this soccer season.

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  36. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    The other side of this argument is kind of interesting. BenE wails about employees getting the shaft by the big bad business ogres of America yet he has no recognition for the Chinese worker. I would suggest the Walmart purchases from China has elevated their peasantry to a higher and better lifestyle and we will soon the removal of the commies and a change to democracy. The transfer payments we Americans make when we purchase the Chinese made hula-hoop or Gettysburg coffee mug is actually accomplishing through trade what BenE hasn’t even thought of. LOL

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  37. Ben Emery Avatar

    The point about Bob’s Soccer shop (which was a real place) it went out of business due stores like Walmart who cover everything in what they sale. Their soccer gear is subsidized by the profit of the gold watches or vice versa depending on the items the store wants to push that particular year. This puts local small businesses under because they don’t have the ability to take a loss on their specialized product but instead fall victim to inexpensive inferior quality oppressed labor made goods from China. At the same time our decent paying manufacturing jobs, which allowed us to purchase goods at the local specialized shops, are gone to the very same place.

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  38. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    How do you explain all the empty store fronts in Nevada City BenE? Walmart is not around here.

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  39. Ben Emery Avatar

    Todd,
    Your time frame seems to be a little off. We switch to our current day policies starting in the late 70’s but really it was in the 1980’s and picking up steam ever since. I will take the economic policies from the thirty years prior of the 1980’s vs the 1980’s to present day.
    http://z.about.com/d/uspolitics/1/0/m/G/096.png

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  40. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Not a cheerleader for them, but…
    http://walmartstores.com/pressroom/news/6361.aspx
    Corporate giving at Wal-Mart is governed by a philosophy that was instituted by the company’s founder, the late Sam Walton: operate globally and give back locally. The majority of the company’s giving occurs at the local level as each Wal-Mart and Sam’s Club location is empowered to support the issues and causes that are important to their neighborhoods. This grassroots style of philanthropy encompasses the small things, such as sponsoring a local sports team, and the big things, like funding college scholarships, helping The Salvation Army raise more than $30 million through its Red Kettle campaign, and assisting emergency responders in times of disaster.

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  41. Mikey McD Avatar

    Ben, I sincerely feel for you. It must be devastating to believe corps like Walmart, MacDonalds, Safeway, Quickstop, Chevron, are evil and out to get us.
    Rather than regulations, taxes, tariffs or other heavy handed government micromanagement wouldn’t a change in our culture’s value system be more ‘freedom based?’ In other words, couldn’t the current ‘organic’ movement evolve into shop local- where free choice feeds the change you are looking for… or is more heavy handed government the only answer?

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  42. Ben Emery Avatar

    No Todd you are wrong again. China is still Communist but have an edge in the capitalistic world due to their ability to trample over the people and own all the land. Please don’t conflate democracy and capitalism, one is a system of governance and the other is a economic system.

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  43. Ben Emery Avatar

    Mickey,
    Where did I say they were out to get us? Once we get passed consuming their products they don’t care about us, there is a big difference.
    D.King- Walmart motto was once Made in a America but those days are long gone.

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  44. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    How about invented in America?
    http://inventionideasblog.com/2010/07/how-to-get-your-invention-into-wal-mart/
    Yeah, you have to work hard!

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  45. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    BenE you are simply incorrect and I am glad your economic and political leanings are being rebuked here in America. You seem to have a bias against capitalism and freedom here and I am curious as to why? Have you ever met a payroll as a businessman?

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  46. J Cutter Avatar
    J Cutter

    re: Posted by: Mikey McD | 02 June 2011 at 11:25 AM
    jcutter: please do not construe my critique of the Teachers Union as a critique on the teachers. I would venture to say that I have more teachers in my family tree than you and I consider their work to be a high calling. A self serving and ignorant presumption, as I do not believe we know each other. Smacks of condescension without a factual basis.
    Teacher Union Facts:
    Excellent teachers are paid the same as crappy teachers. ‘Crappy’ teachers should not make it through probation. Prevailing/tiered wage jobs exist in every sector (including military).
    You can’t get rid of a crappy teacher. Evidently, poor teachers are not granted tenure! or are sacked (at a ~2% yearly rate in CA for tenured, per the most conservative of studies)
    Teachers are forced to join the union (with ‘opt-out’ privileges).
    Kids and education are not even mentioned in CTA’s mission statement “Who We Are”! They are not representing the kids, but the educators. The care for the children is implied by the very concept.
    Opinion: why is higher compensation (‘greed’?) a virtuous characteristic for Union members and not for Wall St. Bankers? You see the current comp levels of any union member as ‘greedy’ compared to WS?!? No matter how it is spun, even the dreaded UAW member compensation accounts for less than 10% of an autos retail. The problem goes back to supply chain profiteering – created largely by our reliance on WS.
    I am glad that our education discussion gave you a stage to vent your hatred of LDS, Mormons, and the Tea Party. Feel better now?
    This is where you absolutely lose it. YOU are the one that posted the link, and I posed a valid rebuttal. I count many church members, and people identifying with the tea party, among my peers, clients, friends and family – so your assertion is insulting and inflammatory. That said, I have major problems with turning over my keys to anyone with what I perceive to be half-baked agendas either religious or political.

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  47. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    LOL!
    “This went on for years – and again, I and my peers, we all did it. By the time Reagan invited Gorbachev’s and his general staff to visit our aerospace companies in the early eighties, they saw a technology development Goliath unknown in the world, building newer and more capable systems by the day for commerce and war. They went home, noodled on what they saw, and decided it was time to throw in the towel.”
    So true George, with lines for T.P. and bread, they must have been overwhelmed!

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  48. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    “Your time frame seems to be a little off. We switch to our current day policies starting in the late 70’s but really it was in the 1980’s and picking up steam ever since. I will take the economic policies from the thirty years prior of the 1980’s vs the 1980’s to present day.”
    Hey, me too. Eyeballing some charts, government share of GDP in 1950 was a bit over 20% as oppose to over 40% today. It seems to me that military spending was a much higher proportion and welfare a much lower proportion of total budget. The Federal Reserve in the mid 1950’s was super worried about inflation, unlike the modern one which seems to have installed a hotline between Goldman Sachs and the White House, but then, look where the campaign money came from this time around.
    One minus to that era was how dominant large companies where. There really is no modern analog to a 1950’s and early 1960’s General Motors, IBM, etc., so there is that downside.

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  49. Ben Emery Avatar

    I will leave this thread with this thought for you to chew on.
    My outrage and frustration isn’t with Big Business but with our government. The American Revolution was fought to allow us to govern ourselves. A government with citizens legislatures representing the people not the elite at the top. We have corporate/ wealthy reps instead of representatives of the people today. Hence the tax breaks for millionaires and billionaires and signing more free trade agreements while cutting social programs for the people.
    The US government has been corrupted so much we (average Americans) no longer have representation in our government. We now have two major political parties so beholden to big money special interest that they hold a majority in Washington DC and “We the People” are left out in the cold.

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  50. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Funny Todd, I have met payrolls for more than 25 years and it does nothing to influence your opinion (or your fellows for that matter) about my views on economics or business development. I have between a $25,000 and $60,000 per month payroll every month since 1990.

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