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George Rebane

KVMR news director Paul Emery commenting on ‘Right Wing Extremism in Action: Tea Party Houston’ introduced Riane Eisler’s Caring Economics into the wide-ranging discussion in that post’s comment stream.  Paul Emery’s concern there was that Eisler’s ideas are so compelling and, at the same time, revolting to conservatives, that they find it too hot to handle and simply want to change the subject instead of confronting head on its solutions to society’s problems.  I personally was accused twice of doing so after answering Paul’s charges (BTW, readers should know that Paul is a friend, the ‘editor’ of my regular KVMR commentary, a student of the human condition, and one of the leading light’s in the local left’s intellectual  pantheon.  I am grateful that his observations and critiques generously grace RR’s comment streams.)

By any measure, Eisler is a left-wing economist with strong feminist overtones.  The above link provides an excellent summary of her Caring Economics.  The purpose of this post it to provide a forum for a discussion of Eisler’s ideas for a brave and caring new world.  We begin appropriately with Paul’s most recent lament about capitalism –

One of the problems with capitalism as it is heralded by the self described conservatives is that it places no value on the work being done, only on whether it turns a profit. To place a value on the importance of the work being done is an evolution that Ms. Eisler embraces.  Doesn't the work of raising intelligent, educated and responsible children have more value than the manufacturing of cigarettes for example?  How is the true value of the work we do established?  It's a huge question that no one wants to talk about.

So let’s begin by talking about the ‘true value of work’.  (I have the honor of being not only a “self-described conservative”, but an ascribed conservative who has enjoyed that appellation from far and wide, bestowed over many years.)  Value itself is usually understood to be “the worth of something in terms of the amount of other things for which it can be exchanged or in terms of some medium of exchange.”   The ‘other things’ may be person-to-person specific, or person-to-market specific – here it takes to two tango.

‘True value’ of anything is a general concept foreign to most people, except perhaps those contemplating the workings of command economies.  Most progressives quickly tend toward command economies when in such discussions they are invited to bare their souls.  So in this sense, there exists no ‘true value of work’ that can be applied in the large where people are free to bargain and trade.  It has and continues to be a socialist shibboleth.

Now to the value of “the work of raising intelligent, educated and responsible children”.  In dollars and cents that value is already expressed precisely by the parents of the child as they invest in his support and education while he remains in their household.  From an economic perspective, the kid returns little beyond the hopefully net joy that is provided for by the human relationships involved.  And the little darlin’ doesn’t even provide that to the rest of us.

We stand still for transfer payments to benefit another’s child in the hope that the present value of the kid’s future economic contributions will somehow make worthwhile today’s expenditures.  As a taxpayer, I don’t need to pay for the parents’ marginal labor in bringing up their kid.  If they have wealth generating jobs, they already charge enough for their labor there to account for such ‘home expenses’.  The last thing that we need is an armed and uniformed marshal at my door to collect the marginal tax for paying some mother to raise her kids.  To an extent, I think we already have a foot in such a world.

Eisler’s new brand of command socialism would have us succumb to exactly such government assignations of the ‘true value of working mothers’ to be an added cost borne by the (all together now) ‘rich’.

Let me conclude this post by bringing forward the relevant comment thread from ‘Right Wing Extremism …’ to Paul’s above opening salvo.  Notice that Paul will introduce a new idea, “true capitalism”, in his response below.  This is another notion inaccessible to most of us.

 


" Doesn't the work of raising intelligent, educated and responsible children have more value than the manufacturing of cigarettes for example."…
It depends on how much they're worth on the open market.
If you view children as a capital investment and, if anything, the human race is entirely too good at producing them, raising good ones would have the same effect as any other infrastructure. There's an upfront cost followed by a payoff over time, and cultures who are bad at it will be overtaken by those that aren't, everything else being equal.
Going forward, I suspect that the value of your average person will drop over time. In a country made of up 'consumers' rather than 'citizens' (tip o' the hat to James Howard Kunstler), perhaps the average person's main job will be to behave themselves, watch the 3d telescreen, and eat their soy loaf with as little fuss as possible. In US society, it certainly looks like increased efficiencies in work combined with the increased size of a welfare state produces that result.
The basic problem of providing a minimum standard of living really is an interesting sort of conundrum. If one is supplied, how do you avoid sapping the energy from most of the people receiving it? There'll always be a group who through disability or otherwise, simply can't do their part of course.
The few times and places that have made an attempt seem to substitute the tyranny of having to make your own way with either religion (Mormons perhaps) or the peer pressure that goes along with homogeneity (Sweden). That being said, the US is a big place. There's really little to stop someone from starting their own exercise in utopia (Thorntonville?), where the rubber hits the road is when that utopia is imposed on others.
Posted by: wmartin | 31 May 2011 at 02:51 PM

Paul, I have brought up a similar issue countless times. I believe that our experiences help create our values (as individuals and as a nation). Our values drive our decisions/actions. Experiences (education) is paramount. Check this out: http://www.johnadamsacademy.com/
Your logic concerning "one of the problems with capitalism… it places no value on the work being done" doesn't make sense.
By definition any product/service must provide value or it would be worthless. How could a biz be profitable without providing good/service of value? Or said another way, how could a biz be profitable via providing a worthless good/service?
(excluding tax payer funded entities)
Posted by: Mikey McD | 31 May 2011 at 02:59 PM

Mikey, wmartin
What you say is true but it only has to do with Marketplace capitalism. True capitalism would place a value on work that is being done that currently has no compensation. As more and more jobs disappear because of automation and exportation of manufacturing we need to look at new and expansive definitions of the true value of work and labor and just compensation for that work.
This is just an example: an executive in a tobacco company makes a product that kills people and may have a salary of millions but a mother of two children, which is a full time job for at least 20 years receives no compensation for her work in raising the next generation of productive citizens.
Posted by: Paul Emery | 31 May 2011 at 03:21 PM

"This is just an example: an executive in a tobacco company makes a product that kills people and may have a salary of millions but a mother of two children, which is a full time job for at least 20 years receives no compensation for her work in raising the next generation of productive citizens."
Sorry, but when I was a widowed father of one son, I never thought I was raising a son 'for no compensation', nor have I ever desired to have my taxes be paid to someone else to raise their child.
If they're raising their children to be productive and honorable citizens that should be compensation enough. If it isn't, I'd suggest she should have found a different line of work.
While I might not like tobacco, pictures of tobacco farmers remain on several denominations of our currency, and it remains a legal product. Addicts might have a love/hate relationship with the leaf, but no one forced them to start the habit and if they need help to quit, there is help available. However, we shouldn't be so quick… cigarette addicts tend to die young and have fewer lifetime medical bills and Social Security payouts. They're doing us a service.
Posted by: Greg Goodknight | 31 May 2011 at 04:05 PM

Please continue the discussion of Caring Economics in the comment stream of this post.

Posted in , , ,

131 responses to “‘True Value of Work’ and ‘Caring Economics’”

  1. Russ Steele Avatar

    Ellen and I raised and educated four daughters who are making signiicant contributions to society, in the legal, medical, marketing and educational fields. We have been justly compensated for our effort, with a big bonus of four bright and intelligent grand children. We did out job and now they are doing theirs, contrubuting to society and generating wealth for future generations. We could not ask for a better payoff from our investment in time and effort.

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  2. Russ Steele Avatar

    Should read “did our job”

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  3. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Thanks to all of you for the respectful conversation
    Okay let me take this discussion to the future world we will reach probably after I’m pushing daisies and could care less.
    In my view we are on a collision course with consumptive capitalism munching away on this planets finite resources so that within 20 years we will face critical shortages of essential raw products that today are packaged and sold as consumer goodies to anyone who can afford them. This includes petroleum based food products particularly animal products that are dependent on oil based fertilizers for feed crops. Look at the rapidly dying oceans as another example. Yes, global warming is real and I will not argue that because we’ll just get into a battle of stats and opinions and besides that’s only part of the problem. Just accept that for the sake of my support of Caring Economics.
    When this tipping point occurs capitalism in order to survive will have to place a value on the three most important jobs we will have. Raising children, care for the sick and elderly and care for the Earth. The survival of capitalism will depend on this transition.

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  4. Mikey McD Avatar

    #1.) God will provide
    #2.)Necessity is the mother of invention.
    #3.) Global warming is making more earth accessible to farming and drilling.

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  5. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I couldn’t disagree more Paul. I am an optimist about the planet and the life-forms living here. I am glad to see you think there is life after death though, since you say when you are gone you could care less which seems to imply a belief in an afterlife. So, if you think there is another system out there that does not place a value on the things you have listed, please enlighten us. My guess, there is no form of human congregation which does not have a system to exchange things or money for for things. But I am all ears.
    When I watched “Scrooge” make his statement to the the two men asking him for a donation on Christmas Eve and he rebuked them with his statement about “decreasing the earths surface population” I took it as a mean old businessman (capitalist today), a tightwad who could care less about people and their progeny. I was wrong. It is the “progressives” who are the true Scrooges.

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  6. stevenfrisch Avatar
    stevenfrisch

    We must internalize the externalities.

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  7. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Todd
    As an example of your optimism can you tell me some good news about how the ocean is going to be restored for future generations?

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  8. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Let’s start with Paul’s comment “One of the problems with capitalism as it is heralded by the self described conservatives is that it places no value on the work being done, only on whether it turns a profit.” This is factually untrue. I’m trying hard to understand where in the world he obtained this idea. In a free market, the only way you can turn a profit is by providing a service or product that has been found valuable by consumers. Does Paul seek out and pay money to folks who do things or provide a service in which he finds no value? This, in fact gets exactly to the point of a free market vs a govt directed market. The govt will take my money and give it to those that it finds to be providing a value to me. In fact, the opposite is taking place. The govt has no clue (outside of it’s Constitutional mandates) what is valuable to me. The more of my earned money that I can keep and spend means that there is a far more honest appraisal of what is truly valuable. If Paul is really concerned as he claims to be about wasted resources, the govt should be the number one target. Most of the privately built housing stock is still in use where as almost every govt insta-slum of all shapes and sizes are torn down within 2 decades of their construction. What remains standing is foul and unhealthy for the most part. Govt regs waste an incredible amount of capital and resources that Paul claims he is against. A good example locally would be the example of citizens being barred from using local and renewable resources to construct a home. Every home now constructed must use imported and treated lumber at great waste of fuel and chemicals. The result will not prevent any forest fires (actually might cause more as there will be less timber harvest and clean up) and only a handful of homes might be saved as a result. Buy local? Just a simple minded slogan by libs to justify a very selective reading of that quickly forgotten creedo. His next howler stands up well along side the famous “God himself could not sink that ship” I don’t know how old Paul is, but if he is near my age he might clear away a few cobwebs in his mind to find that this very exact view was held as the gospel truth back in the 60’s 70’s and onward. We were all going to die. Sorry Paul, you and the others were and are simply wrong. But hopes for mass destruction via starvation caused by wealthy capitalists springs eternal, so off you go.
    The bottom line is, if you want to cut back on waste (and I do) go to the source of most of it, not work around the edge where your prejudices and religion lead you. Can structures and vehicles be built and operated at a very reduced cost and waste of resources? Absolutely! And who stands squarely in the way? The govt – every time. We agree on the problem, (waste) but only the conservatives place it at higher ranking than a govt run society.

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  9. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Paul,
    Your post reads like a Grimm’s fairy tale.
    Not so much gloom and doom my friend!
    One sea-change in how we produce energy and everything bad thing in your post will be solved.
    This will happen Paul.

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  10. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Paul, so you believe the oceans are rising and they are getting acidic?

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  11. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    every bad thing…
    Sorry.

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  12. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Scott
    I am going to use tobacco merchants as my example in this discussion. Capitalism is indifferent to the consequences of it’s products. So I contend there is good work and bad work. With that in mind it seems to be an injustice that a care giver for an elderly person is paid a very small wage and the marketers and product designers of tobacco products are highly paid. There is no profit in care giving only a meager wage because the source of income does not come from a profitable product. A successful tobacco product designer can become wealthy by producing a product that causes death and illness.
    The reason we have resorted to poorly run government social welfare systems is because the work of caring and care giving, which includes raising children and care of the earth does not carry an exchangeable value which is the essence of capitalism. Purchasing cigarettes does. Establishing a value for this work is the basics of Caring Economics.

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  13. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Todd
    Many fish populations have depleted to the point where they may reached the point of no return without drastic international action.
    You can start here
    http://www.helium.com/items/1357093-ocean-oxygen-depletion
    and here
    http://www.aquaculture.co.il/Markets/deterioration.html

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  14. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Paul – you seem to run all over the map. First you claim one thing and then switch to something different. Being “indifferent” is not at all the same as “not placing value”. A major problem with your criticism of capitalism is you have no understanding of what capitalism is. It is a tool. A hammer is a tool and operates quite well at bashing sculls as well as driving nails. We can somehow fabricate a hammer that will fail to function if used on anything but nails, but the cost will go up astronomically as well as becoming an extremely cumbersome and inefficient tool. The money paid to producers of tobacco products is directly related (in a free market) to the value the users of tobacco products place on what they do. There are many people that can give care to elderly folk with very little training outside of common sense and rudimentary life skills. Furthermore, the expenditure of time tends to be very high especially in a one on one situation. A person that makes a lot of money on producing tobacco products (outside of the govt – they make more than anyone) is a very small number of people. Their time is now paid for by millions of tobacco users. The tobacco users pay a very tiny amount of money per year directly to these small number of highly paid tobacco executives and product designers, while an elderly person must pay a great percentage or all of a care givers salary and benefits every year. Capitalism does not establish values. It is an efficient tool to allow the exchange of things of established value between willing buyers and sellers. I’m sorry the world doesn’t line up exactly with your values. Instead of blaming capitalism, why don’t you try explaining to the world your beliefs – and if they aren’t accepted, then it’s just too bad. As soon as we allow the govt to decide what is of value, we will descend into an economic collapse. Why should you have the right to decide for me what is of value and yet tell me I have no right to decide for you? You can not artificially create a high value for a job or profession and then try to print enough money to cover that added cost. Would you be happy to pay the same for a flimsy poorly made shoe as you would for a well made one? Of course not. But why should I be forced to pay some one more than what I value their labor for? It has never worked and never will.

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  15. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Paul do you classify a person growing and selling marijuana as a capitalist?
    I asked you on the oceans question if you believe they are rising from global warming and if they are becoming acidic. You gave links to ocean dead zones written by Debbie Luyo who is not even a scientist but simply a exercise and food writer of no renown.
    The other link appears to be a aquaculture company, maybe even a capitalistic company, selling their wares. I don’t think they carry much weight in the science community.

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  16. Mikey McD Avatar

    Paul, take heart that the cigarettes are only valuable because folks enjoy a smoke and are willing to pay for it. It comes down to values (it always does) on 2 levels. One is the economic definition of value which George included in his post. Another is what the value system of the adults in the population (self reliant? communal? environmentalists? conservationists? etc).
    The anti-smoking industry makes good money (paid via profit or tax payer funded) attempting to change our value structure. It is slowly working in the US but losing mightily over seas. I also see care givers charging between $300-600/day for care; they are doing just fine (Obama line) and they don’t have the heavy conscience a tobacco salesman might.

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  17. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Thanks Scott for the thoughtful comment, there is little to dispute in what you writs. I am not opposed to Capitalism I am just advocating for it;s expansion to include proper value for the most important work we do. How you achieve that is the question that even Eisler struggles with but that doesn’t mean the idea isn’t right. Soon we will be in the position of having to reinvent capitalism and then the question will be faced
    Todd
    MJ farming is probably the purest form of capitalism we have and should please the most libertarian of the group. No taxes, value based on supply and demand also risk and quality. It is probably our biggest industry locally. It also employs local law enforcement workers as well as legions from the justice and incarceration industry. The price per pound,which has been declining the last couple of years, is the single biggest factor that will determine money in the streets for our local businesses, . Our laws and legal system contribute to the value by providing a manageable risk that keeps prices high enabling a tidy profit for farmers and distributors.
    Yes, of course. pure capitalism
    My reference in this post to the oceans had to do mainly with the economic impact of the depletion of the ocean as a food producer and economic provider and environmental stabalizer. I thought a link to a commercial site would be appropriate since you don’t trust government of UN sponsored research. The other is a pretty good essay about the overall situation. Either you agree or you don’t with the premise that the ocean is in serious trouble. Where do you stand on that question?

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  18. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    “There is no profit in care giving only a meager wage because the source of income does not come from a profitable product.”…
    Honestly, it’s probably more a matter of supply and demand.
    It’s always rather difficult to pay well for direct labor of any kind since there’s no multiplier here. A designer can effect millions of a given product (and their owners), a ditch digger can only dig that one ditch.
    Assuming that some people are underpaid, and the irony of them being interested in the same profit as the tobacco demons is not lost on me, how would you go about determining fair wages? A People’s Pay Committee? Random number generator? Is part of the plan to pay housewives a wage, paid for via public money, for rearing children?
    Wage and price controls seem to distort the system in all kinds of marvelous ways. The most wondrous examples I’ve heard of tend to come from the old Soviet Union which, interestingly enough, had about the biggest income disparity the world has ever seen.

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  19. Mikey McD Avatar

    wmartin: We already do that “to pay housewives a wage, paid for via public money, for rearing children?” Welfare payments go up for each child born.

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  20. Mikey McD Avatar

    Paul, the value system in the US (world) is out of whack. I had an acquaintance whine and complain to me on repeated occasions for having to pay $8,000 for a new stint to his heart. The $8k simply saved his life. My response to him was “I think you are worth $8k”- he laughed, I was serious.
    The same fellow gladly paid $10k for a camper trailer 3 years ago that he has used twice.
    What the !?!

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  21. Bob W Avatar
    Bob W

    Paul,
    When you state,
    “True capitalism would place a value on work that is being done that currently has no compensation.”
    “we need to look at new and expansive definitions of the true value of work and labor and just compensation for that work.”
    Am I to assume that you support the idea that people be individually compensated for their efforts in varying and disparate degrees based on the value of the effort?
    Please clarify.

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  22. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    I propose that the true value of work has to do not with it’s commercial exchange labor value but the importance it has to make this a better world by laboring to ease suffering, raising children in a healthy way and helping to maintain the earth so that it will be healthy and provide for the future. There is plenty of work that needs to be done. We just have to find a way to pay for it. Compensation for workers need not be extravagant, just adequate for a comfortable and stable live so they don’t have to be dependent on government assistance. This concept may seem difficult but right now we have a huge unemployed workforce and lots of work that needs to be done so we must put the two together and still preserve fee enterprise capitalism. Solving this problem is the key to the future.

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  23. George Rebane Avatar

    Eisler does not appear to understand the function of Price in an economy.
    Price is what the Buyer pays the Seller for a good or service. Except for barter economies, it is always in the form of recognized money. In an open market, an agreed upon price between buyer and seller communicates many important attributes about what is being sold to other members in the market.
    To begin, in price lies the ability to draw compensation/reward for taking the risk to bring the product/service to market (to the customer). Others can then gauge from price how they may or not be able to use their resources to also supply such product/service and receive such reward.
    To suppliers the current price can be compared with former price(s) in order to communicate any change in demand, since prices in a free market are sensitive to supply relative to demand. Therefore price will induce timely increase or decrease in supply thereby allowing capital to flow to its most productive uses.
    From these we see that price also provides the information of how to allocate scarce resources, thereby causing an economy to respond in the most timely and effective manner to provide the so-called Pareto optimal (the best for the most) quality of life in a society.
    And finally, price has been found to be the most ‘fair’ method of allocating scarce products/services.
    Price is a natural artifact of human behavior within the realities of the real world. It has its own level and can only be manipulated for a while through force or the secreting of information. If the government mandated prices are wrong in an economy, black and gray markets will immediately arise wherein the correct prices prevail to serve the above described functions.
    Whenever prices have been manipulated by the government’s gun, shortages and wasteful excesses have been the result and people have suffered. Extended periods of enforced price controls have always ruined economies and even brought down empires.
    As an historical aside, all communist governments have controlled prices. And all such governments – e.g. USSR, Red China, Cuba, … – have enslaved their populations and ruined their economies as a result, while still allowing various forms of black and gray markets to exist in order to keep the peace and prolong the nominal public order. As a counter, all nation-states that have eased government control of markets and economies have enjoyed the blessings brought by individual freedoms and freer markets in which prices again are allowed to communicate the realities in order to increase the quality of people’s lives.

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  24. Bob W Avatar
    Bob W

    Paul,
    The only part of your answer that I interpret addresses my question is your statement, “Compensation for workers need not be extravagant”. Please understand that my question was purposely kept simple and concise. It had to do with compensation amounts. While your answer is not direct it implies to me that you do not believe that people should be compensated in disparate degrees. Is my interpretation of your answer correct or incorrect ?
    Now don’t go wishy washy on me. And don’t tell me you were just making it up again.

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  25. Mikey McD Avatar

    Compensation boils down to the following:
    Do we as a society trust people to decide on compensation or government?
    The best vote an American has is with his wallet. Don’t like a product or the pay of the products CEO; don’t buy the product.

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  26. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    I do believe that different tasks will receive different compensation depending on the situation. It’s really very simple. This is essential work that needs to and in some cases is being done without wages that deserves compensation in a just society. If capitalism cannot rise to the occasion than where do we go from here?
    George
    I’m talking about the future here. This may not be a comfortable speculation on my part but I truly believe capitalism has to encompass these human and environmental needs or we will fall into the type of government welfare state that you so distrust. If there is no employment for people and there’s lots of work that needs to be done we have a problem. I don’t want to get into the Golden Age of Capitalism regurgitation but you are pushing me there. We are not going back to the 1880’s. There is no free land and resources. We’re on our own to figure this out or it will be computed for us.

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  27. Bob W Avatar
    Bob W

    Paul,
    I am sorry to have to say it but you ARE getting wishy washy on me. “will”? What the H– does that mean? Do you think people should be compensated in disparate degrees or not? I can’t make this question any clearer. This isn’t some trick question but it goes straight to your premise and implication. Ether you are ready to stand behind your beliefs or not. Again, try to buck up and don’t go wishy washy.

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  28. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Oh yes
    True Capitalism.
    That’s my moniker for profit, compensation, whatever based on doing something actually useful and necessary. For example, a baker yes, a commodity speculator, no.

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  29. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    I’m on the road to SF so I’ll catch up when I can. Thanks for the thoughtful conversation.

    Like

  30. Bob W Avatar
    Bob W

    Paul,
    OK, it was difficult but now we can go on. So we have established that yes indeed you do believe that it is appropriate that people be compensated in a disparate manner for the value of their efforts. Now what do you believe should determine the disparate manner of this compensation? You have jumped the gun a little by making some distinction between a baker and a commodity speculator but I will try to keep from letting you divert the subject. This issue of some kind of relationship or lack between a baker and commodity speculator is a different subject so we will have to deal with that on its own.
    So I reiterate, the question now is what do you believe should determine the disparate manner of this compensation? Like the first question, very simple and concise. Please try to stay on subject and just answer the question reflecting what you believe in. No wishy washy or going down some other path. If you want to comment on some other subject you can just post it separately.

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  31. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Paul, who defines what is useful? Would we elect those people to make a law saying a particular profession is useful? Regarding capitalism. If there are two musicians who play a guitar and they are hired by a saloon to entertain the folks, one draws many people and one doesn’t, should they be paid the same? Should we determine a subcategory of a desired position such as maybe how good that person is at that trade?

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  32. Bob W Avatar
    Bob W

    Hold on Todd. Don’t get ahead. I’m trying to keep him on task. I know, as simple as it may seem, he hasn’t been down this road before. We will need to lead him by hand.

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  33. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Paul Emery writes

    “Capitalism is indifferent to the consequences of it’s products. So I contend there is good work and bad work.”

    OK Paul, so let’s say we decide to pay parents to raise their own kids. How do you get this money back if they create a lousy product, either due to bad DNA or bad parenting?

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  34. George Rebane Avatar

    Gentlemen – I detect a gross misunderstanding in this thread.
    Compensation = Price
    Price is not some unique artifact of ‘capitalism’ or any other system of exchanging goods/services for consideration. Price is an artifact of basic human nature and of the realities (cost of materials, labor, production, distribution, delivery, …) of the existential world. And prices will behave and affect commerce exactly as I have described, no matter whether they are set by Andrew Carnegie, FDR, Stalin, Castro, Eisler, or ‘the invisible hand’.

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  35. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Going further, Paul, how do we judge the value of the kids these subsidized parents create? Does a child who goes on to work subsistence jobs an getting food stamps while volunteering at the local loony left radio station get as many points as a child who ends up studying at Harvard or CalTech for a Ph.D. in chemistry or physics? Or does the value of being a poor community radio jock outweigh academic prowess?
    Just wondering.

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  36. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    “How do you get this money back if they create a lousy product”?…
    I guess you could always backend load the payment.
    Maybe it would make sense, at say, age 17, to measure the product.
    Build some sort of formula based on SAT score, body fat index, good basic physiognomy, subtract out genetic illnesses, juvenile hall, poor eyesight. Stir twice. And out pops a payment (or perhaps a fine) for the mother.
    Any similarity between Mr Emery’s plan with eugenics is purely a coincidence. OTOH, I suppose you could argue that the mother is paid regardless of whether or not she does a good job, kinda like crop subsidies.

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  37. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    wmartin is really on to something. I say though perhaps we should go back further, before the birth of the child, or before the conception of the child. The potential parents should give the state a deposit, say $25,000 which the state will keep in trust until the 18th birthday. Then an analysis will be made off of a state approved chart of “useful” endeavors. If the check marks add up to $0, the parents get the money back or a portion thereof. If the child was bad, then there would possibly be an additional charge to the initial $25k which the state would keep.

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  38. Bob W Avatar
    Bob W

    I don’t see what kind of a misunderstanding could be involved with “what do you believe should determine the disparate manner of this compensation?” It has nothing to do with price. Price comes in after the factors that determine the disparateness in the compensation. Let’s get those factors established first. I think we may have no basis for argument when we discover what factors Paul believes should determine the disparateness in the compensation. That is why it was so essential to first get him to commit to disparateness in compensation. Don’t forget, after we find out what factors determine the disparateness we need to find out who he thinks should evaluate those factors before we get to price. Please remember, in order to have a productive discussion we must first take into account if the person has ever actually tried to analyze the issue.

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  39. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    ” Please remember, in order to have a productive discussion we must first take into account if the person has ever actually tried to analyze the issue.”…
    Actually, I can think of a couple of better precursors for one of them productive discussions.
    . Whether it is arguably a good idea or not.
    . That the people discussing it have a bit of power to determine the outcome.
    But then, I’d make a really bad member of the Thread Police.

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  40. Bob W Avatar
    Bob W

    I only mentioned “productive discussion” in the context of who we were supposedly discussing with.

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  41. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Commodity speculators perform a vital function that is necessary to our world economy. They are risking their money on the correct information about the value of what ever they are speculating on. The idea that speculators can cause an increase in the price of something is blather. If they push the price of something up higher than is supported by reality, some one else will undercut their price and they will be left on the hook with their now over priced load of whatever. Yes, they can make a lot of money bidding something like oil futures up on bad news, but they can and do loose a lot if they bid too high. Removing them from the economic system would instantly drive all commodities prices bonkers as the producers and consumers of said commodities would have no idea of the true value of what they are trading. The first thing to happen would be all producers of the commodities would hold off of the market and then jack their prices up. The buyers would then have to find the commodity brokers and hire them to perform the same function as before. But with Paul’s dictate that they not be paid very much, I doubt many will do anything close to as good a job as before. I can always spot a person with no understanding of our economic system when they start running down speculators as useless (or worse) leeches in the system.

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  42. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    LOL.
    OK, I’ll sum up.
    . Tobacco marketeers make more $$$ than single mothers.
    . Some book, which likely no one here has read, sez something about markets and payments for service and the like, but I’m not sure exactly what.
    . The oceans are dying.
    . The oceans are not dying.
    . It’s for the children.

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  43. Ben Emery Avatar

    I brushed over the entire thread but not once did I see the definition of wealth being addressed. There is monetary wealth created from labor but the real wealth is in the products that labor created. If there is a piece of wood on the ground there really is no value until labor is put towards it to make it practical or of use for something. Without that labor the axe handle doesn’t exist.
    There is intellectual and physical labor, we have exported our decent paying physical labor jobs and imported intellectual labor to drive down wages in America. This created a wage/ productivity gap that was filled with easy debt/credit. The debt/ credit is tapped out and we will not see our productive economy recover until we bring back those jobs and stop the exploitation of H1 visas/ illegal immigration.

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  44. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Ben, how would you rate our public education system?
    Are tax payers getting a good value on the product produced (are we educating good entrepreneurs, employees, laborers, etc?)?
    Paul, who would lead the new capitalism mentality Riane Eisler is selling? Where does such a revolution begin/evolve? Is it an ideology pushed down through the department of education, PBS, NPR, Sat morning cartoons?

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  45. Ben Emery Avatar

    Mickey,
    Our preK -12 education system has been steadily on the downslide for decades, especially in California since the late early to mid 70’s.
    We are teaching to the test instead of critical thinking or trade skills. Text books and predetermined tests have never taught, teachers do. Teachers inspire students to want to learn with their own passion but that passion is extinguished by the idea of merit pay and funding according to these corporate test results. No Child Left Behind has exacerbated the problem making the private education industry very rich with tax dollar money while dumbing down American students. It also allows for specific ideas to be taught in a centralized fashion. Don’t score well on specific curriculum and don’t receive funding.
    Higher education level is high but students leave college with so much debt it creates the incentive to enter into finance instead of field where their passion lies. In 2009 around 1/3 third of all income in the US came from the financial sector. Pushing money around and betting on financial markets produces zero wealth for the nation.

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  46. George Rebane Avatar

    Actually BenE, there is nothing we can do in the long term to pay anyone in America a wage (price of service) that is significantly higher than what a third world worker is willing to accept to deliver the same product. It is simply not sustainable in a world where goods and services easily cross borders.

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  47. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Do you assign any blame to the various teacher unions?

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  48. Ben Emery Avatar

    George,
    We could go back to trade policies instead of a monetary policies with our so called trade agreements. I went to the McClintock rep meeting at the Rood Center and a man used a very interesting analogy to show what a good business model looked like, it was Toyota. The thing the man didn’t realize is that Japan totally protected Toyota with import tariffs and subsides from those tariffs creating a strong market for the company. We did the same thing for 200 years and China does the same thing today along with devaluing their currency creating an unfair advantage for goods being manufactured in oppressive human right violator communist China. The other thing about this scenario is that nearly half of our so called foreign trade is done through intercompany trading/ transaction; HP of China trades with HP of US. This isn’t trade at all but is a way around paying US living wages and increasing profits. That sounds good if you own stock in HP but really sucks if your job leaves the country along with all the small business you supported with that living wage. It is basically throwing US workers out in the cold. How is this good for a vast majority of America?

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  49. George Rebane Avatar

    BenE, I’m not sure what policy you are advocating. As China, we don’t have an overwhelming mass of semi-literate workers whose labor we can sell at a world dicount. As Japan, we don’t want to emulate their economic policies as a developed nation that has now led to over two decades of no growth, and has put the nation on a path to an economic catastrophe as its workforce ages and its proetectionist policies come home to roost.
    In the final analysis we have to remember two principles. First, that foreign trade is a global zero sum game. For it to benefit a country, it must be able to specialize in something that gives best value globally. Second, history has shown that if goods don’t cross borders, then armies will.
    The only way we can maintain a labor based imbalance in our trade account is to export something that we efficiently take out of the ground and sell at a competitive world price so that we can pay for our imports. So far we haven’t been able to do that, and given our wants/expectations, the future looks even bleaker.

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  50. Russ Steele Avatar

    George,
    Your wrote” The only way we can maintain a labor based imbalance in our trade account is to export something that we efficiently take out of the ground and sell at a competitive world price so that we can pay for our imports. Would that include the 3-6 billion dollars of gold under Grass Valley yet to be mined and sold in global markets?

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