Rebane's Ruminations
May 2011
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George Rebane

Debate The lengthy comment streams on RR, each containing several comment threads dissecting various ideas, are a joy to behold.  In these pages we join to discuss weighty propositions and happenings that range from the nature of the universe to the why, what, and how of the critters that inhabit our planet.  Mostly we are like the blind men, each groping a part of the pachyderm attempting to describe the whole from what they grasp.

Intuitively we know that we can better discover the overall ‘nature of the beast’ if we accurately communicate our own observations to others, and in turn correctly understand what others are perceiving from their points of vantage.  (‘No Harry, that’s my leg.  The elephant is over here.’)

There are many dimensions to such discussions and/or debates.  And not everyone comes to hug the elephant with a common objective.   Some are there to present and defend their long held idea against all comers.  Some come just to denigrate an idea, or to denigrate the class of people who value the idea, or worse, to simply denigrate the individual who holds to the idea without much concern for the idea itself.

The saddest exchanges are those in which a discussant, out of whole cloth, ascribes to his opposite a position (usually simplistic) that is not supported by any careful read of the other’s words.  Then the discussant proceeds at length to attack and vilify that auto-ascribed position, and doubly so his intended target.  The astute reader recognizes this as the algorithmic basis of political dialogue and debate.  It frustrates the intelligent, and merely plays to the gallery of idiots.  The goal is not greater understanding, but to gain the march on the other.  Most media debates, commentaries, and blogs – sadly including RR – have generous dollops of such back and forth. 

Then on rarer occasions we witness a thread in which the participants begin to productively build a mutually shared understanding, each contributing what they know and civilly pointing out what they believe are errors in the previous contributions, independent of their contributors.  In my mind, that is the sought for elixir of blogs that traffic in ideas.  Don’t get me wrong, productive results do not come only from full agreement or consensus.  Because there are an uncountable number of coherent systems of logic, there can be an equivalent number of ideas (propositions) that are correctly supported by such logics.

And to me at least, discovering such differences, and how they can stand, is itself an illumination and a giant step toward greater understanding in diverse societies.  Such discoveries made in good faith allow the discussion to go to a meta-level where, perhaps, a new and more powerful consensus could be achieved, or at least understood why it still eludes.

From a perusal of RR’s comment streams over its relatively short tenure, I believe that bit by piece we may be moving toward such a forum here.

Posted in ,

14 responses to “Vestiges of Understanding, perhaps toward a Consensus?”

  1. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    George posts:
    “Some come just to denigrate an idea, or to denigrate the class of people who value the idea, or worse, to simply denigrate the individual who holds to the idea without much concern for the idea itself”.
    Well the number one poster here, the number of example of this is… Todd Juvinall.
    Here’s just one of Todd’s recent, endless personal attack posts that is a prim example of what George is talking about:
    “The divide gets larger because their side is simply a bunch of whiny, self important scofflaws”.
    Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 16 May 2011 at 08:56 AM

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  2. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George, I agree with what you have written here but unfortunately I have come to the conclusion over my life’s experience that the following is the reality about consensus.
    3-2
    41-39
    218-217
    5-4

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  3. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    It looks to me the usual suspects have rounded themselves up…

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  4. George Rebane Avatar

    Please don’t misunderstand – I have not proposed anything unreal about the possibility of consensus. It is a difficult and seldom achieved conclusion to a conversation. When people of diverse views move ahead together, they do so on the basis of compromise, often distasteful to each, and not because they have reached consensus. Your cited ‘reality’ is a useful example.
    I simply recommend that, no matter whether we seek consensus or successful contention, the path to both is a better understanding of the other’s position, civilly arrived at.

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  5. RL Crabb Avatar

    Gallery of idiots? Well, you know you have one, for sure. I always enjoy the cerebral jousting on your blog. Exasperating at times, but usually informative.

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  6. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    I’ve decided to bow out of any further “Great Divide” discussions until I can add something that is new to the content of the comments on this subject that I have already offered in the past.
    But I did read a recent David Brooks column in the NYT about the 20% of males who no longer get up in the morning in the USA to join the workforce. I would posit that the level of economic dysfunction that this represents is exactly the engine for revolution, market chaos, and the destruction of nations.
    I like finding things upon which various facets can agree, and perhaps a discussion can ensue between all sides as to how to solve this one particular problem.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/opinion/10brooks.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

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  7. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA – my lights do not shine past education and wealth redistribution. I have tried to be explicit on both in these pages and in my efforts elsewhere.

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  8. bill Tozer Avatar
    bill Tozer

    Does that mean we don’t have a consensus concerning the consensus?

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  9. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    I thought it was a matter of degree instead of an outright embargo.

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  10. Dixon Cruickshank Avatar
    Dixon Cruickshank

    Actually sounds kinda accurate Mr Enos. I bet if I read some of Frisch’s 10,000 word ramblings I might be moved but I get lost a about 2000 – but he damn sure thinks he knows what he’s talking about I will say that for him.

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  11. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    Conversation, n. A fair for the display of the minor mental commodities, each exhibitor being too intent upon the arrangement of his own wares to observe those of his neighbor.
    A. Bierce
    I knew that book would come in handy.

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  12. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    George, how come you get so many ad robots on your blog? They skulk in at the dead of night…

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  13. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA – I average about two a week; don’t know how to stop them without making it inconvenient for real readers. Thoughts?

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  14. John Galt Avatar

    It seems to me that there has been some progress made here in the exchange of ideas.

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