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May 2011
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George Rebane

Is the Great Divide already under way?  RR readers are familiar with the Great Divide discussion in these pages (RR search ‘great divide’).  The basis for the idea of a structural change in these United States is an old one, one that is provided for by our Constitution, and one that was in lively national discussion even before The War for Southern Independence (aka The Civil War).  Today the debate has again become compelling due to the seemingly irreconcilable polarization between the factions of the Left and those of the Right.

BoeingNLRB One ‘solution’, to the indisputable fact that both sides live in their own universe, is a peaceful separation of the two cohorts into a confederated assembly of the current states.  One that would enable open practice of limited government, Founders’ constitutionality, fiscal prudence, and free markets.  The other would continue the current collectivist path to socialism and whatever may follow that folly.  The actual division of territories is among the several problems that need a good-faith dialogue to solve peaceably.

Another and perhaps more serious problem is the asymmetry with which both sides view the Great Divide.  The people on the Right see themselves in a growing bondage of restraints, constraints, unlimited taxation, and loss of liberties.  Their general response is ‘let us go our own way.’  The Left’s general response is ‘oh no you don’t!’, the direct implication being that they would then very quickly run out of OPM, the fuel that always powers progressivism.

But for completeness, I have to add that there are a few progressives who firmly believe that their social order does not need money from other people; they can generate the necessary wealth themselves.  In fact, some of them even claim that it is the Left that is generating the country’s wealth and dragging along the worthless Right.  (Such progressives should be complemented for their keen insight, and the conversation taken to the next stage of how the Great Divide can remove from them the burden of having to carry the Right.)

A useful path toward the Great Divide is the re-establishment of states’ rights.  Removing such constitutional rights from the states has been a proto-progressive passion at least from the time of Lincoln.  Many recognize that the expansion of the Interstate Commerce Act (1887) and central banking (Federal Reserve 1913) have been the prime tools for reducing states to administrative districts of a strong federal government.

Today a last bastion of states’ rights is how they divide themselves into ‘right to work’ and ‘forced union’ states.  For all intents and purposes this already is a step toward the Great Divide, with the proviso that, if properly handled, such a divide may not even be necessary.  But here’s the rub.  The Left is lying to all ignorant enough to believe them that not forcing workers to join unions is actually denying workers their rights.  This twisted logic is one of the insane pillars upon which collectivism proudly stands.


By every measure available, states that allow workers to freely join unions (or not) have out-performed those whose governments use the gun to force union membership.  For that reason companies like Boeing have been actively migrating the growth parts of their business to states where workers are free to choose.  And the unions, correctly sensing a seminal danger to their survival, are pulling out all the stops and paying the right politicians and bureaucrats to bring the full force of government to stop such dangerous actions by America’s corporations.  Laffer and Moore detail these goings on in the 13may11 WSJ (‘Boeing and the Union Berlin Wall’) from where the nearby graphic is purloined.

The hope here is that most Americans have yet to join the ranks of the entitled sheeple, and will see that such union tactics benefit neither them nor the nation.  In the interval Obama’s administration and the Democrats are throwing the National Labor Relations Board into the breach to tell Boeing where it can and cannot build its airplanes.  This is a first, and would mark a giant step forward in the socialization of America.  And, of course, it further motivates those of us on the Right to permanently shed the looney tunes and merrie melodies of the Left.

My feeling is that this is just the beginning of such debates as the Right-leaning states begin to flex their atrophied muscles.  What will power the division is the fiscal hurricane that will soon sweep the land.  Citing an avalanche of references, Mauldin and Tepper (Endgame) point out that we are past the tipping point.  Most of the world’s governments are in terrible fiscal shape and have only “bad and worse choices” consisting of inflate, default, or devalue (a form of inflation).   These governments, including the US, “simply lack the ability to fulfill” their debt, entitlement, and pension obligations.

Having passed the tipping point, the only unknown is how we will hit bottom.  Will it be a repeat of Weimar 1923, Brazil 1999, Argentina 2001, Iceland 2008, or something more draconian that involves restructuring the government or the nation itself?  The known part is that both the Right and the Left will do all they can to convince Americans that it was the other side that caused all the damage, and that fundamental changes to governance must be made if we are to avert a similar disaster.  And depending on the extent of the damage, one of those changes might well be a form of The Great Divide.

Posted in , , ,

458 responses to “An Eerie Feeling re the Great Divide”

  1. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Well, at least MMS was on top of BP…literally!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idmPWJuh2eM

    Like

  2. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    I am only 33 years old, I have never experienced a free market. And unless you were born before 1913 you have not either.
    I got over Ayn Rand in my 20’s & libertarianism in my 30’s, and if you can’t see what privatization, supply side economics, and deregulation has done to us, you’re not living in my world.
    Posted by: J Cutter | 19 May 2011 at 08:49 PM

    Like

  3. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “if you can’t see what privatization, supply side economics, and deregulation has done to us, you’re not living in my world.”
    Uranus?

    Like

  4. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    LOL!

    Like

  5. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    See well above–there is no such ting as a ‘free market’, there probably has never been a thing called a ‘free-market’ since earliest recorded human history, and the entire concept is as much a fantasy as Middle Earth!

    Like

  6. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    There has never been peace on earth either, but I still pray for it everyday.

    Like

  7. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Mikey, what a great retort. What the left believes is simple. Without government control of everything, the wonderful world we all know will disappear. What we think, and you can straighten me out if I am characterizing this wrong, is we want individual freedom and property rights with a minimum input from government. Of course the society needs some rules. Especially now because the left has polluted the minds of our children in government schools. The kids believe the burger police, the toilet police and the light bulb police have to exist to save us all. Of course we don’t, we want the government to protect us and do the other stuff like roads and sewers, but we don’t want them to mandate a light-bulb or a toilet (or the demise of Ronald-McDonald). The left in my lifetime was always accusing conservatives of wanting to tell everyone what to do, you know, stay out of my bedroom etc. Well, we knew it was them, the left, that really was the culprit. We want them out of our bedroom, bathroom, pockets and light fixtures.

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  8. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    I’m still waiting for some contemporary examples of countries
    that include the “tea party mantras of limited government, fiscal responsibility, and free markets.”
    Anyone have any ideas?

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  9. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    I’m just kind of tired of the “free market’ cry–it is deceptive and inaccurate. What conservatives really mean is that they want a less regulated market. The debate is over the level of and type of regulation, not the very existence of it. By allowing conservatives to frame the debate as between a free and regulated market we are ceding the word ‘free’ and allowing them an advantage in the debate they do not deserve.
    Of course I could have just retorted: I have never seen God, but seems like everyone here is convinced.

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  10. George Rebane Avatar

    These pages have never maintained that a perfectly free market has ever existed. Of course in modern times markets have all been regulated to some extent. Perhaps the closest we have come to free markets in recent history have been the black and Soviet ‘gray’ markets. I feel that framing our difference as being completely binary is a waste of time. As Mikey analogized, free markets is a compass direction that we want to go, not that we ever will or want to get there. So are the other ideas of limited government (how limited? we can’t do away with it), fiscal responsibility (we can spend within our revenue intake except in national emergencies), constitutionality (hoo boy, now there’s a bucket of worms, but most on the right again feel that we can interpret what the Founders left us and how that can be changed within the Constitutional provisions), and so on.

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  11. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Paul, you have posed this question in past comment threads. The dire shape of countries (as measured by personal liberty and deficits) around the globe supports the concept that a country leading by the Tea Party mantra does not exist today.
    I would suggest the 1850’s in the USA. And like clockwork you will tell me that greedy capitalists violently collected women and children from the streets, chained them together, forced them to work 25 hrs a day and paid them in bread and water. etc etc.

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  12. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    I’m still waiting for some contemporary examples of countries
    that include the “tea party mantras of limited government, fiscal responsibility, and free markets.”
    Paul, why are you looking for other countries? We are the great experiment. Maybe if people in this country stop trying to tear it down, out of some need for self-immolation, we can get it right.

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  13. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Well, but that is what they did!

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  14. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    don’t tell anyone that I am paying 2 neighbor kids (13yrs old) to weed eat for me this weekend. Believe it or not THEY ASKED FOR THE WORK!

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  15. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Hey, why not start a local sweatshop and see if you can under bid the Chinese prisoners that sew Donald Trumps line of suits? Then you’ll really be a “Job Creator” and according the “Church of William Hickman” , you should never have to pay a dime in taxes ever again!
    Better yet, by a piece of land next door to the local school and open up a toxic landfill and tailor shop.
    Then you can just recruit kids from next door. What do they need school for anyway?

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  16. George Rebane Avatar

    MikeT, one wonders what was the intended contribution of your 9:26AM remark to this marvelous comment stream. Surely you are not running out of the good points and personal experiences that have until now buttressed your arguments.

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  17. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Amazing!

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  18. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Actually, the parent of my weed eater last weekend called to complain… “you paid my son way too much!” To which I replied, “He did a great job and I want him to want to come back.” A grateful employee and grateful employer. This is not a fantasy, it happens everyday in the private sector.
    Interesting that you used the working conditions in a communist country to belittle free markets.

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  19. Mike Thornton Avatar

    No, I’m not running out of anything, George. I was just trying to help Mikey McD with a suggestion to increase his profit margin

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  20. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    I think it goes without saying that you are in no position to make suggestions on how anyone in the private sector should increase profit margins. It would be like me opening a dance studio.

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  21. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Hey I know, lets ban incandescent light bulbs, close down the factories in this country and replace them with poisonous mercury filled CFLs made by Chinese prisoners and boost the profits of Obama’s jobs czar Jeff Immelt’s company GE. Yeah, that’s the ticket! Oh wait, that actually happened.

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  22. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Mikey, you’re slamming a little hard here. We’ve been down this path before but I will again note that we live in a different world now. In the 1850’s there was free land and cheap labor. The free land did come about at the expense or the Native peoples but that’s the way it goes. Also in 1850 there were 3.2 million slaves bought and sold on the “free market” But hey, we were free.
    George
    I appreciate your pragmatic look at the question. that is, of course , where the real discussion lies. Too many regulations? Sure, which ones do we keep and eliminate. Steve F frames it pretty well.
    ” The debate is over the level of and type of regulation, not the very existence of it.”
    Does anyone disagree with this statement?

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  23. George Rebane Avatar

    I rejoice that SteveF’s framing of the debate has finally made a mark on the other half. That frame has been a constant din in this comment stream and on RR since it started in 2007. Sometimes even taking a small step takes a lot of time. But let’s do go forward with this ‘new’ understanding.

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  24. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Paul, I would expand to “the debate is over the level, type, need and enforcement of regulation, not the very existence of it.” Further, the tax debate is over the level, equality, enforcement and use of taxes, not the very existence of them.

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  25. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    I would argue that there are a hell of a lot more slaves in the USA today than in 1850.

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  26. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Edit: I would argue that there are a hell of a lot more serfs in the USA today than in 1850.

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  27. Mike Thornton Avatar

    OK, so it’s decided, the progressives and regressives are going to get a divorce, should we just go back to the demarcation line before the “War of Northern Aggression”?
    And then you guys get Texas and we get California?

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  28. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    More slaves today in the US today? That’s a very disingenuous statement that tries to compare the slavery of 1850 where human beings were kidnapped, bred and sold as animals with some kind of analogy of today’s “slaves” to some kind of socialist order or what ever you mean. If you’re trying to be funny you’re not. Please reconsider you’re statement or at least clarify why you feel today’s “slaves” are equal with the African American slaves of 1850. Pretty bad form Mikey

    Like

  29. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Yes, we just got to the crux of the issue on this blog. They believe that Americans today are treated worse than slaves held in chains of bondage. This is a divide we can never cross again. Nor can we allow them to cross. If there is a great divide based on the desire of some to live with people of like culture and ideology; and since no one ever seems to be able to answer the question “how do you achieve that in modern society without excluding people”, and thus denying other people their constitutional rights and treating them again as chattel; I have no choice but to declare that this is a recipe for a second American Civil war; and I know which side I will be on–the side of the Union.

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  30. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    breathe into a paper bag if you need to, but, I downgraded my comment from slave to serf knowing that you would take it to the extreme (and before anyone commented on it).
    what do you call:
    Someone who is forced to pay towards an immoral income tax code?
    An employer who is forced to collect her employees income taxes from an immoral income tax code?
    Someone who can be drafted to a military to die for a cause they can’t stomach?
    A worker who is forced to pay into the social security system against their will?
    Someone who has to get their toilet, light bulbs, signage, etc approved before use?

    Like

  31. Mike Thornton Avatar

    I mean this when I say it.
    So much of the rhetoric from the right wing, not just today but going back to the right wing populist movements of the 29th Century has centered upon the myth that there is some form of “persecution” being foisted upon White. right wing Christian men.
    This theme is consistently reworked and revisited. The reason for this is because it’s been successful. Whether it’s the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” or the alleged threat from Blacks or Latinos, “communists under every bed”, Bill-o the Clowns “War on Christmas”, “Liberated Women” Islam or the fearful myth that Barak Obama is a “Mau Mau” or “Manchurian Muslim”, “Tyrannical Socialist Government”, and the list could go on and on and on.
    These folks organize around fear and hate.
    Part of the problem is that they are so steeped in this fear and hate that they can’t see anything else. It’s why you can’t really have a logical conversation or debate with them on nearly any issue whatsoever.
    It’s sad and sadly true…

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  32. George Rebane Avatar

    Many historians and other students of Americana (as cited in the RR references) see a more complicated, multi-partite, and peaceful Great Divide. According to that vision, it will be hard to tell which part can legitimately still call itslef the ‘Union’.
    My own belief is that the Union will only survive if its people agree to come under a (new?) common culture that can be labeled American. And my hope is that such a culture will re/emerge as we look around us and see all of that which is worth preserving. The current path toward divisive multi-culturalism is not working and will not work.
    By definition mono-cultural societies ‘exclude’ people in various ways and at various levels – socially, legally, professionally, … . It has been going on forever, and continues today. Even liberals see a certain exclusionary ‘cleansing’ that may be required – MikeT on ‘Sharia Creep’ argues, “I would argue that the people we really need to get rid of are the folks ‘Who claim to love America, while so clearly hating Americans.’ ”
    (Finally, a ‘civil war’ is an intra-national conflict in which one national faction attempts wrest control of the nation from the faction in charge. In that sense the US has never had a civil war, and any violent implementation of the Great Divide would not be one either. ‘Civil War’ was a political appellation attached to the 1860-65 conflict in order to elevate the emergency of secession to a national threat level that would support the new expansion of federal powers needed for the North to win.)

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  33. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    29th century eh? Now we know it’s true the “liberals” are off the planet.
    No we don’t buy into your leftwing propaganda, we white males love everyone and bear no malice to good people everywhere. We believe a government big enough to pay your rent and your food is big enough to tell you when to jump and how high. We on the right believe you should be the master of that. Regarding the serfs, they were a homogeneous people in Russia, the serfs became the cannon fodder of their government masters. We don’t like to be cannon fodder. Also, the Republican Party was created to rid the country of slavery and for Thorton to issue such an ignorant statement shows why our country needs to be run by we adults on the right.

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  34. George Rebane Avatar

    Regarding the repeated frustrations expressed in this conversation – the most recent being just above my 2:16 comment – it may be useful to recall that the theme and topic of the original post here is about the onrush of the Great Divide. This comment stream and its multi-party dialogue between Left and Right seems to strongly underline the existence, if not the correctness, of the thesis.
    While we live cheek-by-jowl, our minds are in different universes. Both sides causing pain to the other. One side wishing to stop the pain through granting each their liberty, the other through subjugated unification.

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  35. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Excellent George!

    Like

  36. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    “So much of the rhetoric from the right wing, not just today but going back to the right wing populist movements of the 29th Century has centered upon the myth that there is some form of “persecution” being foisted upon White. right wing Christian men.”
    Although statements like that can be found, they’re not very common. It’s the kind of thing that blogs selectively sweep off the web in an attempt to prove something about a group by the actions of a few. Reminds me of the fuss about accusing the Right of racism since they don’t like Obama, when they seemed perfectly fine with two straight black State Department chieftains.
    Building strawmen can be fun, but I don’t know that it’s profitable.
    How about this for a new national map?
    http://www.aurorawdc.com/ci/red_vs_blue_county_2000.jpg

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  37. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    The left reverts to the call of racism because their philosophy is vacuous. You point about Bush having two blacks as Secretaries of State is the perfect example. He had more minorities in his administration than Clinton, but the press called Clinton the first black President. Go figure. People of any race or ethnicity can succeed here and we on the right are the ones that truly help. The left just keeps them in their “place”, as only the double-talking liberals can do.

    Like

  38. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    ” The current path toward divisive multi-culturalism is not working and will not work.”
    Ah, now you’re getting to something that really matters. Whether we have more or less government intrusion into our economic life is a rather short term problem compared to the health of the underlying culture.
    The current style for cultural diversity is an interesting one. Aside from driving labor markets down, I wonder sometimes why the ruling elite in both the US and (especially)Europe have pushed so hard here. What’s in it for them?
    Obviously, you can have culturally diverse countries, it’s just that they take strong pressure to bind in any kind of equilibrium. At some point, a black swan flies in and something like the USSR, Yugoslavia, or the later western Roman Empire flies apart, the center cannot hold and mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.

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  39. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    WELL SAID GEORGE- PERFECT! “One side wishing to stop the pain through granting each their liberty, the other through subjugated unification.”

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  40. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Comical to see someone belittling the logic of another when they believe in the following:
    Bigger government (more taxes + more regulations) = economic growth (AB32)
    OR
    What is more ironic is that I will fight to earn/protect/foster personal liberty for folks with such a logic stream despite me finding it repulsive/in error.

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  41. HHall Avatar
    HHall

    Cleansing!!??? Did you actually say that and put it in writing!?
    No-one should be giving this man the time of day – he wants an exclusionary society and he wants some level of “cleansing”. I know very well what that means. And who would decide who needs to be “cleansed” from society. This is vile, dangerous and beyond ignorant. Shame on you. I am through with this blog.

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  42. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Another liberal PC loving wingnut takes someone’s words out of context and cries a river. Good riddance.

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  43. George Rebane Avatar

    In his 3:51PM comment HHall has revealed his English reading skills, and thus established the basis of the tortured reasonings which populated his previous contributions. We have enjoyed the confirmations of his ideology, bid him godspeed, and the gift of more profitable exchanges on websites that cater to his logic, understanding, and learning.

    Like

  44. Mike Thornton Avatar

    “Roads to Dominion”, by sociologist Dr. Sara Diamond
    Go read it
    Also try: “Harvest of Rage” by Joel Dyer

    Like

  45. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Mikey
    OK I didn’t see your edit. Comments on your opinions.
    Someone who is forced to pay towards an immoral income tax code?
    You are making an assumption that the majority believe the tax code is contrary to commonly held principals. That is likely not true. What you are expressing is your personal moral code. You are entitled to that but it doesn’t mean I embrace the same code. The definition of immoral is
    conflicting with generally or traditionally held moral principles
    An employer who is forced to collect her employees income taxes from an immoral income tax code?
    more of the same
    Someone who can be drafted to a military to die for a cause they can’t stomach?
    I don’t necessarily believe in the draft but a professional mercenary military may be more of a problem. My jury is out on this.
    A worker who is forced to pay into the social security system against their will?
    You may not like it but is it immoral and whose standards determine?
    Someone who has to get their toilet, light bulbs, signage, etc approved before use?
    I think that there will always be a tendency to over regulate. All we need to do is elect those who agree with our standards. Pretty simple. All you need is a majority.

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  46. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    I wrote a screen play for Harvest of Rage back in 2000 after reading Dyer’s HOR. Though I bet we read two different versions. In my version mega food corporations and government teamed up to take over multi-generational family farms; enraging the up and coming generation.

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  47. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Paul, Hitler had a majority.

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  48. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    I refuse to accept that because a majority votes for XYZ that it is moral. Our tax code can only be accepted as “moral” by those who benefit (see Rebane’s Peter/Paul Principal) at the expense of others.
    Would you tell your children to discriminate based on a classmates income level?

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  49. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    McD–Hitler never had a majority vote–slight distinction. When he was appointed Chancellor of Germany the Nazi Party was a minority and he was a compromise appointment. After the Reichstag fire the Nazi’s won 44% of the vote, but still failed to have an absolute majority. Hitler suspended habeas corpus. The Reichstag then met in Potsdam and passed an act giving supreme authority for government to Hitler, but only after they had arrested key communists and social democrats.
    In short, Hitler never had an electoral majority in any free election.
    Just a slight correction, but to some of us it is important.

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  50. Mike Thornton Avatar

    The point, McD isn’t who took over the family farms, it was how the Neo-Nazi and Christian Identity/Militia groups took advantage of the situation to promulgate their version(s) of reality.
    While your screenplay was based on Dyers book (as you know) his book was based on what actually happened.
    And as you (apparently) well know, it was Corporate/Capitalist “Agribusiness” and Corporate/Capitalist “Banks” that took over those family farms.
    However the “Rage” that was “Harvested” was aimed Jews, Communists, Blacks and Latinos and their (supposed) “Turner Diaries” “ZOG”, which by the way led directly to the Oklahoma City Bombing.
    As you may (also) know Dyer criticized the “Left” for allowing all of that one sided propaganda to take place unchallenged, by an alternative narrative, one that would have put the blame squarely where it should have gone.

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