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May 2011
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George Rebane

Is the Great Divide already under way?  RR readers are familiar with the Great Divide discussion in these pages (RR search ‘great divide’).  The basis for the idea of a structural change in these United States is an old one, one that is provided for by our Constitution, and one that was in lively national discussion even before The War for Southern Independence (aka The Civil War).  Today the debate has again become compelling due to the seemingly irreconcilable polarization between the factions of the Left and those of the Right.

BoeingNLRB One ‘solution’, to the indisputable fact that both sides live in their own universe, is a peaceful separation of the two cohorts into a confederated assembly of the current states.  One that would enable open practice of limited government, Founders’ constitutionality, fiscal prudence, and free markets.  The other would continue the current collectivist path to socialism and whatever may follow that folly.  The actual division of territories is among the several problems that need a good-faith dialogue to solve peaceably.

Another and perhaps more serious problem is the asymmetry with which both sides view the Great Divide.  The people on the Right see themselves in a growing bondage of restraints, constraints, unlimited taxation, and loss of liberties.  Their general response is ‘let us go our own way.’  The Left’s general response is ‘oh no you don’t!’, the direct implication being that they would then very quickly run out of OPM, the fuel that always powers progressivism.

But for completeness, I have to add that there are a few progressives who firmly believe that their social order does not need money from other people; they can generate the necessary wealth themselves.  In fact, some of them even claim that it is the Left that is generating the country’s wealth and dragging along the worthless Right.  (Such progressives should be complemented for their keen insight, and the conversation taken to the next stage of how the Great Divide can remove from them the burden of having to carry the Right.)

A useful path toward the Great Divide is the re-establishment of states’ rights.  Removing such constitutional rights from the states has been a proto-progressive passion at least from the time of Lincoln.  Many recognize that the expansion of the Interstate Commerce Act (1887) and central banking (Federal Reserve 1913) have been the prime tools for reducing states to administrative districts of a strong federal government.

Today a last bastion of states’ rights is how they divide themselves into ‘right to work’ and ‘forced union’ states.  For all intents and purposes this already is a step toward the Great Divide, with the proviso that, if properly handled, such a divide may not even be necessary.  But here’s the rub.  The Left is lying to all ignorant enough to believe them that not forcing workers to join unions is actually denying workers their rights.  This twisted logic is one of the insane pillars upon which collectivism proudly stands.


By every measure available, states that allow workers to freely join unions (or not) have out-performed those whose governments use the gun to force union membership.  For that reason companies like Boeing have been actively migrating the growth parts of their business to states where workers are free to choose.  And the unions, correctly sensing a seminal danger to their survival, are pulling out all the stops and paying the right politicians and bureaucrats to bring the full force of government to stop such dangerous actions by America’s corporations.  Laffer and Moore detail these goings on in the 13may11 WSJ (‘Boeing and the Union Berlin Wall’) from where the nearby graphic is purloined.

The hope here is that most Americans have yet to join the ranks of the entitled sheeple, and will see that such union tactics benefit neither them nor the nation.  In the interval Obama’s administration and the Democrats are throwing the National Labor Relations Board into the breach to tell Boeing where it can and cannot build its airplanes.  This is a first, and would mark a giant step forward in the socialization of America.  And, of course, it further motivates those of us on the Right to permanently shed the looney tunes and merrie melodies of the Left.

My feeling is that this is just the beginning of such debates as the Right-leaning states begin to flex their atrophied muscles.  What will power the division is the fiscal hurricane that will soon sweep the land.  Citing an avalanche of references, Mauldin and Tepper (Endgame) point out that we are past the tipping point.  Most of the world’s governments are in terrible fiscal shape and have only “bad and worse choices” consisting of inflate, default, or devalue (a form of inflation).   These governments, including the US, “simply lack the ability to fulfill” their debt, entitlement, and pension obligations.

Having passed the tipping point, the only unknown is how we will hit bottom.  Will it be a repeat of Weimar 1923, Brazil 1999, Argentina 2001, Iceland 2008, or something more draconian that involves restructuring the government or the nation itself?  The known part is that both the Right and the Left will do all they can to convince Americans that it was the other side that caused all the damage, and that fundamental changes to governance must be made if we are to avert a similar disaster.  And depending on the extent of the damage, one of those changes might well be a form of The Great Divide.

Posted in , , ,

458 responses to “An Eerie Feeling re the Great Divide”

  1. Free Marketer Avatar
    Free Marketer

    Anyone who has to ask for a list of taxes or regulations which need reform or ‘rollbacks’ as means for encouraging R/D may not be experienced enough to contribute to the solution. I can only hope that the question was rhetorical.
    Did you know that employees whom are employed at an SEC, FINRA, Dept Insurance, FTC regulated financial firm are not permitted to invest in start-ups?! Instead they are aggressively taxed so that the ‘bought and paid for’ politicians can select recipients for the government ‘investment’ funds?

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  2. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    I’ve read Adam Smith, “HHall”. Since we’re not worried a’boot common grazing pastures, I’ll ask you again, what you think the impending “tragedy* is that you are asking about.

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  3. Free Marketer Avatar
    Free Marketer

    Ben, I think you missed the “greedy capitalists” point. He was pointing out the fact that the working man would kill their neighbor for a buck. The working class and the robber baron are both greedy, one happens to be more successful than the other.
    Here is what a Robber Baron/ Industrialist/ Capitalist/ Economic Royalist once said after breaking up a workers strike.
    “I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half.”

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  4. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “Free Marketer”, your thought patterns remind me of one Doug Keachie. Do you know him?

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  5. Free Marketer Avatar
    Free Marketer

    Someone grew up reading comics about an all powerful government saving the day, day after day! For those of us with degrees in econ and BUSINESS EXPERIENCE we will have to rely on our ideas and product/service to provide for us while those lecturing us on econ based in comic book logic ride in the cart we are pulling.
    “What will the tragedy be? Did you study economics, ever? Look it up. There is only one tragedy of the commons. It is why we have regulations, to ensure a common playing field for business/owners, and to ensure equal access to public resources without destroying it for the coming generations. Very American concepts.
    Posted by: HHall | 19 May 2011 at 10:17 AM “

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  6. HHall Avatar
    HHall

    Greg – We are exactly talking about a common grazing pasture. As much as you’d all like to believe in the magic of an ever-expanding pie, there are actually physical limits within which we all must live. In a free market, without regulation, he with the most can overtake all the rest. That kills competition, uses up the resources (earlier “fishing” dicussion), and all this blather won’t really be necessary, because we will live in an oligopoly. So, how, without government and regulations and common ground will you ensure that one person/company…or the current 5 or 6 now holding inordinate money and power, doesn’t just run you over? And I am serious about wanting a legitimate answer….

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  7. George Rebane Avatar

    There may be a misunderstanding of a ‘commons’ in the sense that G. Hardin taught. More here
    http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/08/tragedy-of-the-commons-etc.html#more
    Classical liberals (conservatives/libertarians) who also believe in free markets adhere to Hardin’s dictum that government should seek to minimize the existence of commons, since they are by their nature unsustainable. One way to do that is through government management, which is almost always the inefficient, inequitable, and costly way to remove a common. The other is by shifting their ownership to the private sector. Neither are perfect, the latter is better.

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  8. HHall Avatar
    HHall

    Ok, just to get this fully anticipated attack over with….I have plenty of degrees….enough to not be intimidated by anyone else’s, and enough to see through those who use their degrees and education as a point in itself, rather than to address the actual issues. I just don’t wave them around, because I believe every person’s experience is relevant.

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  9. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    HHall, I’m afraid you’ve stretched the concept of the commons beyond all recognition.
    ‘When buying and selling is controlled by legislation, the first things to get bought and sold are legislators’. In the past 50 years we’ve had an explosion of market regulations and one result is an ever growing concentration of wealth at the top. If one uses a popular definition of insanity as ‘repeating one action while hoping for a different result’, what do you plan to do to fix the problems you see, and how sane is that?

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  10. J Cutter Avatar
    J Cutter

    Well…
    As suspected, no real discussion to be had here.
    A pointed question to George ends in a personal slam by an anonymous poster (despite their ignorance of my civic contributions) –
    ‘Free Marketer’ (!) ha, you obviously don’t understand why we have a representative gov to protect our interests when spouting that regulatory/investment nonsense.
    Not gonna get in swinging e-tool match with an obvious troll.
    Pointed questions deserve direct answers if we are to further the discourse.
    Rebane, I gave it a shot, but see this appears to be just another stocked pond.

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  11. Free Marketer Avatar
    Free Marketer

    I don’t know Doug Keachie (but he sounds like a stud!). I just could not sit on the sidelines any longer (not to imply that you needed any help exposing those for whom he gov is an idol).

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  12. HHall Avatar
    HHall

    Hmm, I am about done too. Still haven’t gotten an answer. Anyone else want to try? I’d like to understand what the functioning alternative is to regulations to preserve the “commons”, to ensure equal access to all regardless of inherited entitlement (etc.), and to ensure that we don’t overuse our resources. Again, you are welcome to believe in the expansion of the pie in any theoretical money policy way you’d like, but the physical limitations are indisputable, so that is my basis of questioning. Thanks.

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  13. Mikey MCD Avatar
    Mikey MCD

    Our government promised us (with the passing of the The Federal Reserve Act, 16th amendment, SS, Medicare, Fiat currency) that they could ‘smooth out the boom and bust cycle, provide security, protect the consumers, decrease monopolies, strengthen anti-trust laws/enforcement…. and yet the gov meddling with interest rates, pet projects, campaign paybacks, backroom deals, stimulus, upside down SS and medicare have only added chaos and corruption to the system. Trusting a ‘bought and paid for’ government with the commons is folly.
    continue to add another layer to the house of cards.

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  14. Mikey MCD Avatar
    Mikey MCD

    WE HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT US FROM GOVERNMENT.

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  15. HHall Avatar
    HHall

    George – Just saw your post and want to look at it your reference. My first questions though would be the following: the Grand Canyon, Yosemite and many other spectacular public places are commons. They are fully sustainable if we all agree that they have a value that is beyond economic – that their inherent beauty is enough to keep them as they are. This doesn’t seem to me to be a political issue at all, so why deny this? As for the private holding argument, I would love to think that would work, but how does the private company not decide to fill in the Grand Canyon and build condos, because that would bring in more money and benefit the shareholders ….which is how private companies must work, right? The beauty of having publicly owned spaces, which can only be called inefficient if profit is the motive, is that pleasing the shareholders just means keeping the space alive and healthy. This is actually the MOST efficient way of holding land and resources, if you take into account the need for them to be available in the long-term, for generations beyond ours.

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  16. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Sorry, “HHall”, but the economy as a whole is not a “commons” and never was. You’ve been reading too much of the postmodern economic literature.

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  17. Mikey MCD Avatar
    Mikey MCD

    HHALL, what you meant to say was, “I have not gotten an answer I will accept with into my impenetrable worldview.”
    In what world does destroying our food, water, and other natural resources make sense to a capitalist? A capitalist, by definition is a producer. Who has the most to lose by the loss of resources- producers.
    It goes both ways, look at NYC in the time of horse draw carriages. The biggest crisis was “what do we do with all the manure?” It was a health crisis and the governing bodies of the time came up will all kinds of rules and fees (think taxes) to deter folks from bringing the horses downtown.
    Along came the automobile- thanks to an entrepreneur. Manure crisis solved. Innovation (with freedom) will protect the commons and no one is better suited as to conserve the commons than the capitalist.

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  18. George Rebane Avatar

    JCutter seems to not know the scope of the questions he so glibly puts forth in his ‘18 May 2011 at 09:26 PM’ comment, and he also has a short fuse. The answers to such questions are the subjects of major papers published by academics and think tanks.
    For the other readers, here’s a link to a Cato study on the government vs private sector funding of research – https://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa022.html – in order to understand the complexities involved. And I believe energy research may be the most complex and difficult R&D area to fund. One indicator of this is that today’s regulatory environment is so complex that even teams of hired lawyers, expert in the field, cannot extract information sufficient to plan such R&D programs to within several multiples of their actual costs and schedules.
    Energy R&D projects typically require the construction of test infrastructures that entail risk and inconvenience. Beyond the known regulatory steps to get something going, there are the unknown ones, and finally the suits and demonstrations by the environmentalists and NIMBYs. The latter arrive just in time when the ‘owners’ of the project think that they have crossed every t, dotted every i, and paid every fee. It is no wonder that for-profit companies are reluctant to take many such risks. Instead, they continue to do the same old same old of punching holes in the ground or seabed, and extracting the stuff that is easy to get and appears to be there in a never-ending abundance.
    The brilliant response of progressive governments is to make “energy costs necessarily sky rocket” in order to whip/entice the private sector into doing more R&D for alternative energy solutions. The reaction is as we have seen. When energy costs go up, the economies stall, energy companies make even more money on their slim margins (for a while), and governments’ fixed tax levels on energy (say, $/gal) generate lower revenues. The overall level of risk then increases, and everyone, including energy companies, just hunker down and hoard their cash.
    And the desired progress recedes even further.

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  19. George Rebane Avatar

    A resource that starts as a common may be eliminated in a number of ways, some of which do not destroy its original function. For example, government can lease Yosemite to a private concern to maintain and operate it as the natural wonder that it is. It doesn’t just have to sell it to a developer with no strings attached.
    When we compare the husbanding policies of African wildlife between Tanzania and Kenya, we see how such leases work. Tanzania’s policy of leasing large tracts to ‘white hunter’ entrepreneurs who put on ‘safaris’, etc has maintained wildlife. Alternatively, Kenya’s keeping of such reserves as public wildlife parks has proven impossible to police and poaching has taken wildlife populations to local extinction.

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  20. HHall Avatar
    HHall

    Ahh, we are getting somewhere! Technology is the fix? The manure “crisis” was fixed with the “automobile” which created the fuel crisis, the war for oil crisis, the oil spill crisis. The “economy” is whatever you call it. The earth IS a commons. And capitalism only POSITS that we will work in the best interest of all…but that ALL doesn’t include the future, and doesn’t acknowledge that we are still ignorant about the consequences of many of our actions in nature. Nor does it have any way of responding to the now well-documented existence of our finite ecology. The amount of water on earth isn’t changing, just changing form…etc.
    There is only one way to take care of FINITE resources…by monitoring how fast they are used. This can be done by a King or Queen, by a Dictator, by the Emperor of the Universe…call it what you like, but it must be done by someone who can make an unpopular decision for the good of the whole….i.e. the future, i.e. your children. Thank god we have a representative democracy, as flawed as it is, which includes a method of governance that accepets the need to modulate or regulate capitalism where it is most flawed, and does so at the will of the people. I don’t want a company CEO deciding how to allocate our resources. My best bet so far, is to elect a representative who must report to her constituents, and whose job is to help take care of the commons, making even the difficult decisions. What is a better alternative?

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  21. Mikey MCD Avatar

    HHAL, I am an active outdoorsman. Fishing is my drug. Dirt roads welcome my dirt bike and I like a mothers arms. I know of no one who values the environment as I do.
    Check out Rebane’s concept of a Non-Profit Service Corporation (NPSC). Furthermore, I do love the land trust model of concerned citizens (freely funded by capitalists) buying land for private management.

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  22. HHall Avatar
    HHall

    Sorry if this seemed off track, but the point I was getting to is that the idea of a Great Divide ignores some important, but perhaps less well known, history. Obviously I believe that some regulation is necessary and is, indeed in our very best interest (common open spaces, commonly used natural resources). States have repeatedly and regularly requested that these kinds of regulations be federally developed and federally enforced. Why? Because it is too hard on BUSINESS to have to comply with a checkerboard of regulations by states. Splitting the nation (and based on many of the comments above, I hear a thinly-veiled and very frightening call for “homogeneity” in one of them…i.e. an exclusion based on race, class or religion) would NOT be in the best interest of business…which seems to be the gravest concern of the political Right.

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  23. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    One only needs t travel to the California State Parks (for an overnight stay mostly) and then compare them to privately owned. The State’s are trashed and the capitalist owns are gems. Just a small example.

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  24. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Do you consider air and water a commons and how, in your opinion should the quality be maintained?

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  25. Mikey MCD Avatar

    I have zero desire for a homogenous society and would argue that it is, ironically, the collectivist ideal that requires such.
    LIBERTY is “the gravest concern of the political Right”. Business (our freedom to use our ideas to feed/cloth/shelter ourselves) is but an extension of said liberty.
    Liberty insures each person (regardless of color, religion, background, status) a life worth living. Collectivism promises security at the expense of liberty and individuality.

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  26. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Here is David Evans with some insight for our lefty friends. Looks like you’ve been had! So, you can go to bed tonight secure in the thought that is no Climate Change monster under your bed!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di5FyndJbz0&NR=1
    “I have read through most of this thread and have come to realize the super elites have done exactly what they set out to do, divide average working Americans against each other. Amazing.”
    Yes Ben, the above Video should help you.

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  27. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    D. King, that is so true. The elitists knew they could get those dumbed down by our educational system to bite. The bite because te regular folks want to do the right thing and the liberals were able to convince them that recycling that can was going to save the planet. But as we can see and read, the truth has overcome the liberals lie but the “inception” they planted will take a while to remove. But it will be removed.

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  28. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Yes Todd, Ben is correct. It’s hard to believe that corn ethanol subsidies in the U.S. are tied to the price of wheat in the Middle East and that can be used to foment unrest. What amazes me is the callousness it takes to standby and do nothing about the human suffering. People bitch about the population when the answer is right in front of them. We know when a country is advanced to a higher standard of living that we tend to have less kids. No need to spike the drinking water or, as in China’s case, force population control. So, cheap abundant energy is the solution. It is like people have been so demoralized; they have given up on our ability to think our way out of this problem. Energy is all around us, and if you can detect it, you can collect it! We need to take the money away from the people pointing their crooked little fingers at the problem and fund the people doing energy research. Anyway, off the soap box.

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  29. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    HHall, your postmodern view of economics is certainly interesting. Tell me, if all private transactions are considered part of ‘the commons’, what are the limits (if any) of the government’s power to control those transactions on behalf of the people?

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  30. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “We need to take the money away from the people pointing their crooked little fingers at the problem and fund the people doing energy research.”
    Unfortunately, the folks deciding who to fund can be counted on doing a lousy job of choosing the right research to fund, and as far as I can tell $100’s of million$ have been poured into solar and other alternative energy technologies which remain expensive compared to conventional sources of energy.
    The old fashioned way is let people who know something about it risk their own time and money to develop it, with that money being tax deductable, and then grant them a patent for a time to insure they have title to the idea and can reap the rewards.
    That works.

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  31. HHall Avatar
    HHall

    Greg – Postmodern? Thats interesting. I was educated at Columbia University in the 1980’s. Micro, macro, and international economics. Pretty much standard stuff…and I’d love to be called postmodern for real:) I don’t know where your statement about private transactions come from…not me, I don’t believe that. Were you referring to your own statement putting words in my mouth about calling economics the commons? That was your thought, which you are now self-referentially commenting upon. Lol. My point was that there is no “label” that fits economics. It is the fuzzy social science about how money moves in the world, is very theoretical, and has some very basic flaws, or “assumptions” as they call them. So, every theory needs to be tested in reality, which is why I am so interested in figuring out a way to handle the true realities of the tragegy of the commons WITHING a capitalst system. A free market can’t address that reality, and no theoretical model of economics that I have yet read of does either. Again, SOME control, regulation, modulation is required…it used to be by Kings, today it is by dictators or elected politicians, for the most part. If I wanted to make the leap about your posts that you are tending to about mine, I would have to say you espouse NO leadership, otherwise knows as anarchy. And then I would have to remind you that from Neanderthal tribes to today, no society has been able to survive a leaderless society….But I don’t really need to go there – I’d rather stick to the spoken points.

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  32. George Rebane Avatar

    PaulE, re air and water being commons. Hardin most certainly taught that air and water were both commons in the very technical sense that he spelled out. When the impact of humanity was small, the issue of never came up, because as he candidly summarized, our operating principle was that ‘the solution to pollution is dilution’.
    This worked until the pollution levels, first in rivers, lakes, and harbors, became so high as to affect the quality of life of proximal populations. Now even seas and oceans are feeling the impact of human offal.
    Air was next. Our own experience is the public policy that started controlling and then improving the air quality in the LA basin and downwind valleys.
    Under the mantra of managing commons, government has stepped (over stepped IMHO) into about every aspect of our lives with behavioral control dicta. More and more things get criminalized daily.
    The hard question is where to draw the line between individual liberties and the government dictated ‘common good’. If we don’t limit population growth, the answer is simple – draconian policies for ‘common good’ will rule.
    As DKing and others have pointed out, populations are naturally limited (controlled) by developed countries. See the UN projections today. And many of us believe that development (cum wealth generation) is best nurtured in environments that include the tea party mantras of limited government, fiscal responsibility, and free markets.
    Again, Hardin – in his landmark ‘Exploring New Ethics for Survival’ (1968) – gave examples of how enlightened governments could manage its commons.

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  33. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    You’re dodging the question, HHall. By recasting ‘the commons’ from the tangible to the intangible, you make it fit everything, much as the interstate commerce clause has been stretched to fit whatever the Congress says it fits. So what are the limits? How does that fit an enumeration of powers in a document like the U.S.Constitution?
    ‘Postmodernism’ was in full swing by the ’80’s, so that would seem to fit your timeline just fine. I’m sure you’re capable of finding examples of postmodern economic theory and the commons if you want to.
    Within the US, the physical commons, as Smith would understand the concept, is handled in way Smith would approve.

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  34. HHall Avatar
    HHall

    George – Population control is the solution to pollution? And who would decide who stays and who goes? The “natural” control you suggest is not natural at all. It is the product of the education of women who then strived to live a better life and wanted to use birth control, followed by the education of the men who then conformed to the use of birth control. Limited government would mean we don’t get to decide when and how women get pregnant. You have to answer the question of who decides, because there is no invisible hand to do so.
    In the meantime, as you suggest, our natural environments are indeed overwhelmed, not just with “offal” but with literally tens of thousands of untested chemicals now firmly entrenched in our own bodies. Besides a mystical and sudden change in population growth, what do we do now?
    We recognize that your air is my air is Exxon’s air, and we regulate those who pollute more so that they don’t impinge on my own rights to clean air and water. This is not over-reaching. This is survival, ensuring we don’t poop too much in our only boat.

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  35. HHall Avatar
    HHall

    Greg – I honestly don’t know what you are asking. What are the limits? I am not espousing some universal theory here…I am looking at one critical failing of free market economics, and discussing what better solution there is to this failing than regulation. Do we need to regulate all air, well, it has no borders, so yes. Water? yes Land pollution? yes. How many toxic chemicals one company gets to make without first reviewing whether it creates Thalidomide babies or gonad cancer? Yes, this should be regulated. Unless we change the basis of our economic models so that “externalities” are considered part of the model, which in reality, they are. In reality, that cancer causing chemical causes disease which then needs to be treated by by doctors ($$$), causes workdays lost ($$), and so on. These are instrinsic costs that don’t get calculated by this ethereal free market. Someone pays for this, and it is not the guy who profits from the use of the chemical. And this doesn’t even take into account quality of life. Smith was not god, and he lived in an ivory tower….and show me where he ever answered WHO directed the great, white, male invisible hand that magically made the markets work. This magical thinking is at the root of the free marketeers’ loss of credibility and has been debunked ad nauseum. It defies logic completely…it is really catching the Emperor without clothes.

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  36. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    From 2009
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ddt-use-to-combat-malaria
    “A panel of scientists recommended today that the spraying of DDT in malaria-plagued Africa and Asia should be greatly reduced because people are exposed in their homes to high levels that may cause serious health effects.”
    malaria-plagued Africa and Asia
    “…exposed in their homes to high levels that may cause serious health effects.”
    Really, more serious than dying from malaria?
    Hey, what a great way to control the population.

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  37. Mike Thornton Avatar

    These guys live in an Ayn Rand fantasy, where real world issues that challenge their myopic views are simply to be ignored!
    It’s kinda like Ms. Rand herself. In the end, when she was sick and dying she had no problem with accepting, “socialist” government support in the form of medical care and Social Security.
    Is that surprising? Of course it isn’t!
    Mind you that this is the same “Great Thinker” that modeled her “Ideal Man” on a brutal, murderous sociopath named William Hickman.
    So when you think about it, it’s no wonder why and how the fellows here are so comfortable with either controlling or destroying anything or anyone that get’s in their way.
    Through their worship of Rand, they are actually all aspiring to be Hickman!

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  38. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    “I am looking at one critical failing of free market economics, and discussing what better solution there is to this failing than regulation.”
    Another critical failing being it’s (the free market’s) tendency to pinch off, well, free markets. Monopolies, from both labor unions and corporations being the main example. Government, I suppose,is the purest case.
    Regulations, in the sense that you probably mean it, do have the tendency to imply solutions and top down design rather than marketplaces. An alternative to emissions regulations in cars, for example, might be to simply charge people a yearly tithe on their car registration based purely on the amount of emissions which is given off. Anyone with an aircooled Volkswagen, regardless of it’s current value, would pay far more than the owner of a modern car. Crank up the tithe to suit what you think is the anti-value of dirty air.
    The tricky thing, as usual, is telling the difference between real village commons issues like air vs. silly ones like determining the color of your neighbor’s house. There’s hardly anything more absurd in this world than the members of a city Planning Commission.
    In addition, there’s another entrant in the making people behave pageant, lawsuits.

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  39. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Thornton- I think you are confused. First you are worried that ‘we’ will force Christianity on you and now Randism… “Through their worship of Rand”. BTW, Rand was an atheist. For you to contend that us Christians idolize an atheist is comical.
    Why is the concept of individual liberty so damn hard for you to grasp? We capitalists have provided solutions and answers to the tough questions posed here. Since our liberty based solutions don’t fit your worldview you spew hatred; we can only take that as a sign of our victory.

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  40. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    wmartin, we already pay a steep tithe for our cars at the pump, time of purchase and registration.
    Amen: “There’s hardly anything more absurd in this world than the members of a city Planning Commission.”
    Hhall: I am only 33 years old, I have never experienced a free market. And unless you were born before 1913 you have not either.
    The same invisible hand steers your car safely to and fro everyday. Why don’t you or I swerve to create a head-on collision when we drive? Our self interest guides us safely.
    “WHO directed the great, white, male invisible hand that magically made the markets work. “

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  41. George Rebane Avatar

    HHall, I’m still working on trying to see how your 19 May 2011 at 03:39 PM comment relates to my 3:07 PM comment. As is often the case in these discussions, we simply understand each other’s words in radically different ways.
    For example, you clearly don’t share the Hardin definition of a common, and IMHO apply it willy-nilly to everything making a systematic discussion impossible for people like me to follow. And moreover, the clear meaning of ‘natural control’ of populations was not meant as a political control such as imposed in China by its autocratic government. Instead, the population is limited by economic considerations in a developed countries (e.g. Germany, England, Denmark, France, Norway, Sweden, …) because people no longer breed extra children for the sake of insuring their old age or providing cheap labor for the family farm/business. In these countries the wealthy demographic is shrinking, and that’s causing other problems with regard to the labor force and future wealth generation.
    I do confess that it’s not certain that I’ve said any of this well enough for you to understand. But it is the best I can do.

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  42. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    wmartin, we already pay a steep tithe for our cars at the pump, time of purchase and registration.
    I’m more making the point that regulation-like limits can be applied via marketplaces. On the one hand, you can cook up a huge set of rules for car makers plus metastasized nonsense like CARB and the BAR, or you simply charge people for their pollution and they can respond as they like.
    If smog output were purely a matter of gas consumption, I think that gas taxes would be a reasonable way to go. In real life, there’s a 100’s:1 difference between different vehicles, so it’s not that simple.
    Go to the smog station, they test your car on rollers, you get a bill. Nobody cares what year it is or how it’s equipped.

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  43. Mike Thornton Avatar

    George:
    I don’t know the answer to this but is “Hardin’s” definition of the “commons” the only such definition or is it simply the one that backs up your argument?
    I’m all about “freedom” and “liberty”, Todd. The difference is that your version of “freedom” only applies to a selective groups of people. That (largely) being relatively wealthy Christians.
    Very often what you’re really advocating is for that select group of people to have “freedom” at the expense of, and in many cases paid for by others.
    Your “freedom” is freedom for the few. My “freedom” is freedom for the majority.
    You act as though this nation belongs to you and the groups you favor and the rest of us are just interlopers and should simply exist to serve
    I remember George standing up in a meeting in Nevada City a few years back and saying exactly that!, Do you remember George, when you told everybody at the Miners Foundry that Nevada County just needed to face the fact that we better cater to the needs of wealthy retirees moving into the area? Your premise was that if we didn’t and/or complained to much about it, you would all leave and Nevada County would become just another burned out, rural California community. I’ve never forgotten that!

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  44. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Thanks for responding to my question about air and water quality. I’m interested in following up on this statement that you made
    “And many of us believe that development (cum wealth generation) is best nurtured in environments that include the tea party mantras of limited government, fiscal responsibility, and free markets.”
    Can you specifically name current countries that have achieved that realm?

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  45. J Cutter Avatar
    J Cutter

    Paul – good luck getting a straight answer outta him. His (late) response to the most simplistic of modern questions seems to be a tired and confusing self-important mantra.
    Post personal attacks, only a hack reference to a debunked 1983 Koch-funded Cato Institute ‘manifesto’ served as a directed answer to very specific & simple questions. Talk about holding on to failed policy!
    That, in a nutshell, is what so many of us (relatively) silent majority see as the problem in throwing in with any of the neo-pseudo-‘conservatives’. We need solutions, not wholesale slash and burn.
    I got over Ayn Rand in my 20’s & libertarianism in my 30’s, and if you can’t see what privatization, supply side economics, and deregulation has done to us, you’re not living in my world.

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  46. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “I got over Ayn Rand in my 20’s & libertarianism in my 30’s, and if you can’t see what privatization, supply side economics, and deregulation has done to us, you’re not living in my world.”
    OOPS!
    Facts are so inconvenient; are they not?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxMInSfanqg

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  47. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    D. King, I think the Cutters of the world need something to believe in. Sad sacks.

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  48. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Another screw up! (Funny)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrA9zj94NuU

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  49. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    HHall, there is no ‘failing’ of the commons with a free market, which you seem to be confusing with anarchy. Assigning property rights to reasonably clean air means if my neighbor starts burning wet pine needles causing me harm, I have standing to get him to stop and collect damages in court. We set basic standards by the process set in law, and yes, where needed, some regulatory agency has standing to set basic standards for what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable use of that air and water.
    I’ve never written anything different, and I don’t think anyone else here has, either.
    In short, I can swing my arms in any direction I want as long as I don’t hit someone who doesn’t want to be hit.

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  50. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Todd, they are so used to lying, they don’t even tell each other the truth anymore!

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