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May 2011
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George Rebane

Is the Great Divide already under way?  RR readers are familiar with the Great Divide discussion in these pages (RR search ‘great divide’).  The basis for the idea of a structural change in these United States is an old one, one that is provided for by our Constitution, and one that was in lively national discussion even before The War for Southern Independence (aka The Civil War).  Today the debate has again become compelling due to the seemingly irreconcilable polarization between the factions of the Left and those of the Right.

BoeingNLRB One ‘solution’, to the indisputable fact that both sides live in their own universe, is a peaceful separation of the two cohorts into a confederated assembly of the current states.  One that would enable open practice of limited government, Founders’ constitutionality, fiscal prudence, and free markets.  The other would continue the current collectivist path to socialism and whatever may follow that folly.  The actual division of territories is among the several problems that need a good-faith dialogue to solve peaceably.

Another and perhaps more serious problem is the asymmetry with which both sides view the Great Divide.  The people on the Right see themselves in a growing bondage of restraints, constraints, unlimited taxation, and loss of liberties.  Their general response is ‘let us go our own way.’  The Left’s general response is ‘oh no you don’t!’, the direct implication being that they would then very quickly run out of OPM, the fuel that always powers progressivism.

But for completeness, I have to add that there are a few progressives who firmly believe that their social order does not need money from other people; they can generate the necessary wealth themselves.  In fact, some of them even claim that it is the Left that is generating the country’s wealth and dragging along the worthless Right.  (Such progressives should be complemented for their keen insight, and the conversation taken to the next stage of how the Great Divide can remove from them the burden of having to carry the Right.)

A useful path toward the Great Divide is the re-establishment of states’ rights.  Removing such constitutional rights from the states has been a proto-progressive passion at least from the time of Lincoln.  Many recognize that the expansion of the Interstate Commerce Act (1887) and central banking (Federal Reserve 1913) have been the prime tools for reducing states to administrative districts of a strong federal government.

Today a last bastion of states’ rights is how they divide themselves into ‘right to work’ and ‘forced union’ states.  For all intents and purposes this already is a step toward the Great Divide, with the proviso that, if properly handled, such a divide may not even be necessary.  But here’s the rub.  The Left is lying to all ignorant enough to believe them that not forcing workers to join unions is actually denying workers their rights.  This twisted logic is one of the insane pillars upon which collectivism proudly stands.


By every measure available, states that allow workers to freely join unions (or not) have out-performed those whose governments use the gun to force union membership.  For that reason companies like Boeing have been actively migrating the growth parts of their business to states where workers are free to choose.  And the unions, correctly sensing a seminal danger to their survival, are pulling out all the stops and paying the right politicians and bureaucrats to bring the full force of government to stop such dangerous actions by America’s corporations.  Laffer and Moore detail these goings on in the 13may11 WSJ (‘Boeing and the Union Berlin Wall’) from where the nearby graphic is purloined.

The hope here is that most Americans have yet to join the ranks of the entitled sheeple, and will see that such union tactics benefit neither them nor the nation.  In the interval Obama’s administration and the Democrats are throwing the National Labor Relations Board into the breach to tell Boeing where it can and cannot build its airplanes.  This is a first, and would mark a giant step forward in the socialization of America.  And, of course, it further motivates those of us on the Right to permanently shed the looney tunes and merrie melodies of the Left.

My feeling is that this is just the beginning of such debates as the Right-leaning states begin to flex their atrophied muscles.  What will power the division is the fiscal hurricane that will soon sweep the land.  Citing an avalanche of references, Mauldin and Tepper (Endgame) point out that we are past the tipping point.  Most of the world’s governments are in terrible fiscal shape and have only “bad and worse choices” consisting of inflate, default, or devalue (a form of inflation).   These governments, including the US, “simply lack the ability to fulfill” their debt, entitlement, and pension obligations.

Having passed the tipping point, the only unknown is how we will hit bottom.  Will it be a repeat of Weimar 1923, Brazil 1999, Argentina 2001, Iceland 2008, or something more draconian that involves restructuring the government or the nation itself?  The known part is that both the Right and the Left will do all they can to convince Americans that it was the other side that caused all the damage, and that fundamental changes to governance must be made if we are to avert a similar disaster.  And depending on the extent of the damage, one of those changes might well be a form of The Great Divide.

Posted in , , ,

458 responses to “An Eerie Feeling re the Great Divide”

  1. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Yes Paul, but what is the percentage of uninsured in their country of origin?

    Like

  2. Mikey McD Avatar

    Rebane, time for another installment of “the Liberal Mind”. With skyrocketing gas prices the liberals are voting to raise taxes on oil companies (by way of repeal about $2 billion a year in tax breaks). Liberals cannot understand that ultimately it is the consumer that pays the tax (with even higher prices at the pump).
    Liberals conveniently ignore the Keynesian source of the problem (printing trillions of dollars and explosive gov spending) which has had a negative effect on the value of the US Dollar; thus driving up the price of oil.
    BTW, a gallon of gas was $1.83 when Obama took office (U.S. Energy Information Administration)

    Like

  3. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Thornton, California’s unemployment rate is 50% higher than Texas or NY.
    “Part of their agenda is to make it impossible to have a “free and fair” election that they could actually lose.” — This is what comes of being blind. What has been done is to level the playing field so that Dems might actually lose.

    Like

  4. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Todd, in what way have your posts mirrored “Jefferson rejected the deity of Christ”??

    Like

  5. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Mikey
    Why should we help subsidize an industry that is experiencing record profits? Taxes are different from subsidies. If we repeal farm subsidies is that a form of increased taxation?

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  6. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Paul, don’t take my critique as a blessing of subsidies or taxes. I was simply pointing out the illogical sequence exhibited by the dems in Washington.
    Dem’s thought process (fantasy) looks something like this:
    Gas prices are high + increase in taxes on Big Oil = lower gas prices
    Furthermore, singling out one industry over another for tax relief or increased tax burden is immoral and unjust.

    Like

  7. Mike Thornton Avatar

    It amazing that in the minds of some, taking away taxpayer “subsidies” equals a tax “increase”.
    If what you want me to say is that things are bad in California, OK, you’re right.
    But you were tryimng to hold Texas up as being “the” model we should follow and all I did was point out that they’re not doing any better or wrose than New York.
    I stand by my statement that the modern Republican party and conservative, corporate oligarchs have no respect for “free and fair” elections. The evidence backs up my premise. Deal with it!

    Like

  8. Mikey McD Avatar

    With skyrocketing gas prices the liberals are voting to raise taxes on oil companies by way of repeal about $2 billion a year in tax breaks.
    What else would you call it (other than a TAX INCREASE) if taxes go up?
    Washington is not talking about subsidies, they are talking about raising taxes on hand selected companies.
    What else would you call it if taxes go up?

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  9. Mike Thornton Avatar

    I’d say that they’re subsidies and the oil companies don’t need them when they’re making billions upon billions of dollars in profits.
    What I can’t figure out is why, subsidizing healthcare for poor people or unemployment benefits or education or (take your pick) is “evil socialism” for folks such as yourself, but giving money to multi-national private corporations is beautiful “free enterprise”?

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  10. George Rebane Avatar

    Hope this helps –
    Pagan – from the Christian perspective, a person who believes in a polytheistic panthenon as distinct from its monotheistic Abrahamic god. More generally, a believer in any non-Abrahamic god(s).
    Atheist – one who believes that there exists no intelligent and purposeful being that caused “what is” into existence (a la John Wheeler).

    Like

  11. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    “Furthermore, singling out one industry over another for tax relief or increased tax burden is immoral and unjust”
    Under this way of thinking big oil subsidies should either be eliminated or I should get the same breaks for my business, “I” refers to millions of self employed who don’t get the same deal. In fact, you can say I pay for their tax subsidies. Is that fair?

    Like

  12. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Thanks George!
    I knew this was the case, but you said it much better than I would have!

    Like

  13. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Yeah, instead of getting it through reduced payments to the treasury, they’ll get it direct from you at the pump. Eat the poor! Zoltar predicts…New program of Gas stamps to go with program of food and electricity stamps. You are enslaving yourself!

    Like

  14. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    If one “believes” there is no God doesn’t that mean that to be an Atheist is faith based ?

    Like

  15. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    “I’d say that they’re subsidies and the oil companies don’t need them”
    Subsidy? So Exxon Mobile gets a check from the government like farmers do? How much?
    Do you mean tax break perhaps?
    To tell you the truth, it’s probably medium hard to find a significant area where oil companies are different than any other extractive business in terms of taxes.
    I have a funny feeling that people who are most vocal about corporate taxes don’t know what the rules are (which can be hugely complex of course) and never bother to look up a company’s income statement.
    One thing I’ve noticed in the last decade or two is the idea that lives on about the power of the major US oil firms. These days, they are minor players compared to days of yore. Look to the national firms if you want clout.

    Like

  16. George Rebane Avatar

    Paul, indeed it does imply exactly that ‘atheist’ is a faith-based belief system. I would venture that very few God-fearing Christians would agree with me though. They would demand that ‘faith based’ means that you have to have faith in something transcending the human species, instead of faith in nothing of such nature.
    In the final analysis, the atheistic proposition is also not scientific in the sense that it lacks falsifiability, and most certainly it does not satisfy Occam’s dictum.

    Like

  17. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Look, you guys are screaming to high heaven about the budget deficit. Let’s cut the “subsidies” (for agribusiness too) and all the tax loopholes and dodges and then we can take stock of where we are.
    You guys are always touting the “Free Market”, lets give it a shot!

    Like

  18. Mike Thornton Avatar

    George it is clearly a leap of “faith” to say that an all powerful, all knowing, bearded guy in the sky, that nobody can prove exists, fits the Occam’s “Razor” dictum, when it comes to the creation of the universe…..

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  19. Mikey McD Avatar

    For the THIRD time. I was pointing out the flaw in the dems logic that increasing taxes on big oil magically creates cheaper gas at the pump. In addition, I have stated unequivocally (multiple times) that I don’t believe in subsidies, our progressive income tax or a tax system which allows a politician to pick and choose different tax rates for different people or companies.

    Like

  20. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Yes, once again, the currency is being debased, speculators are (or at least were) running up the price of oil, and oil companies are making good profits, but still less on a gallon of gas than our governments get off the high taxes.
    Now there’s a call to end the “subsidies” of oil companies under the tax code. Meaning raising their taxes. Rather than passing those profits to those who own the shares (like your retirement accounts), the government wants to spend that money on our behalf rather than cut spending, and wants us to think higher gas prices will magically not be the result.

    Like

  21. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Fine…
    Then we’ll cut the subsidies to the oil companies and let them try and charge whatever they think they can get away with and we’ll see what happens, OK?

    Like

  22. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    “You guys are always touting the “Free Market”, lets give it a shot!”
    Fair enough. I’ll throw out a few suggestions.
    . Abolishing corporate income taxes. Not only is it merely passed through to the consumer, but it burns up a ton of money on red tape. Ideally, 100% of corporate earning are written off since they become expensed as either a cost of doing business or as profits being turned over to stockholders, who in turn pay taxes. There’s currently an insane situation where dividends are double taxed, which along with low tax rates on capital gains, encourages stock speculation.
    . Get rid of the notion of capital gains vs. income. Instead, allow people to inflation correct capital gains but otherwise treat it as ordinary income. The last thing we need is the .gov encouraging certain types of investment. This should make up the corporate tax shortfall mentioned above.
    . Really hammer on the area where free enterprise has failed, and this is monopoly, oligopoly, and monopsony pricing. Creatures like Microsoft, Google, the UAW, and the California Teacher’s union take full advantage of the lack of a free market in their respective worlds. Beef up anti-trust enforcement and throw in unions and the major league baseball while you’re at it.
    . Close the borders to the extent possible. This has had a huge effect on blue collar wages in this country.
    . Go ahead and crank up tariffs if you like, but do it on a broad based level rather than picking particular industrial areas.

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  23. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveF, re your 17 May 2011 at 10:50 AM comment.
    I don’t think dissecting you “un-American” assertion will be productive. Americans of all stripes throughout history have considered and even fought for secession from the Union. As these pages have documented, the idea is alive and well, and its discussion is growing.
    By introducing the notion of Great Divide, I sought to discuss such a bifurcation as a purposive, positive, and peaceful undertaking – not a violent revolution or secession like in 1860.
    I agree with your concerns re such an effort, and don’t want to give the impression that I have a glib easy solution up my sleeve. Even the Great Divide, should we attempt it, would be traumatic for all concerned, but less traumatic than violence and bloodshed.
    Reading your and MikeT’s sentiments, it seems that both of you would not be in favor of examining the reasons for or the results of a Great Divide. It even sounds like you would resort to stronger measures than the ballot box to prevent the issue coming to resolution. Thoughts?

    Like

  24. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Nobody has yet to respond to my question as to why I as a small business man shouldn’t get the same subsidies as Big Oil. Why should I support their tax breaks?

    Like

  25. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    “Nobody has yet to respond to my question as to why I as a small business man shouldn’t get the same subsidies as Big Oil. Why should I support their tax breaks?”
    OK. First list the tax breaks that they get, without using mad Google skillz. BTW, subsidy is not the same as break.
    Just between us girls, what percentage of your income through the years was reported to the Feds?

    Like

  26. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Paul, the Federal Income Tax system, having evolved under near one party control of the House (Democrats, in case you were wondering), has grown like topsy. It’s a major campaign cash generator for those Congresscritters lucky enough to score the right committee assignments.
    Small businesses have their goodies, too, but megabusiness gets megaconcessions. So do megaunions. It takes big business and big unions to have standing with big government.
    wmartin has it mostly right but misses some of the biggest frauds associated with corporate taxes. One, big corporations get their money’s worth, because established companies have (surprise) the ability to game the system with big legal departments and regulations that favored them, the folks who were there in the beginning buying the right legislators. Two, a dollar earned by a corporation gets the same tax applied whether the owner of that profit is a John Kerrey (D-Heintz), a janitor with a 401K or the Widow McGuillicuddy down the street. Three, it means businesses make decisions not based on what the real costs and benefits are, but on what the costs are after the tax code is milked.
    Golly, if I was a CEO of a megaco, I think I’d be taking the company Gulfstream V on family vacations, too. The tax code buys a lot of perks for the managerial/director classes on top of jolly nice salaries.
    So, my populist left friends, Corporate taxes make for great soak the rich rhetoric, but the rich are the ones making out like bandits, and your favorite class warriors have been helping them do it over the last century.
    Ooops, just heard on the radio, the Senate failed to pass the ‘end the oil company subsidy’ bill. Tough going.

    Like

  27. Mikey McD Avatar

    Is the debate over the status quo (living with class warfare and diverse difference in opinion) and a painful divide (means) to attain a more peaceful quality of life (ends)?
    Why/how would progressives fight the latter?
    “It even sounds like you would resort to stronger measures than the ballot box to prevent the issue coming to resolution. Thoughts?” Posted by: George Rebane | 17 May 2011 at 03:25 PM

    Like

  28. Mikey McD Avatar

    I say yes- go for it. But, know that the middle and lower class will feel the most pain.
    “Fine…
    Then we’ll cut the subsidies to the oil companies and let them try and charge whatever they think they can get away with and we’ll see what happens, OK?
    Posted by: Mike Thornton | 17 May 2011 at 03:20 PM “

    Like

  29. Mike Thornton Avatar

    I’m totally in favor of that examination, George!
    The bottom line for me is that, in general, I believe that the overall conservative program is bad news for the majority of the people in this country and the world as a whole. All evidence shows me that you guys (and I mean the BIG “you guys”)are dragging the world towards destruction, on nearly every level.
    Now I know you see this very differently and “we can agree to disagree” on that!
    My disagreement with Steve is that he appears to be saying that if (God forbid) the conservatives are actually able to gain the type of power that you all have said you want to achieve, we should continue the struggle as part of the “Loyal Opposition” (my words, not his!) I, on the other, would either like to win the fight (peacefully and politically) or cut you guys loose to go do your thing before you drag us all under.
    I think Steve, has an admirable idea that “America” needs to be preserved, no matter what. I think that despite all of the chestbeating and rabble rousing that we hear from the right wing, with it’s constant use of patriotic, family and religious rhetoric, many of the folks who are leading this conservative charge don’t really give a damn about “America”. If they did they would be doing more to support the country and it’s people vs. supporting the global capitalist elite and their own narrow self interest.
    I’m a big movie fan and I was watching “The American President” with my girlfriend last night. In one scene Annette Benning says to the President (Michael Douglas) “How do you keep your patience with people who claim to love America, but so clearly hate Americans?”
    I’m not saying that every conservative is an evil, bad person. I do however think that the modern conservative movement has been hijacked by some pretty greedy and dangerous folks, who are also wicked smart and are manipulating people into selling themselves and their country down the river. If push comes to shove, I’d like those of use who want to, to be able to get out of the boat before the river goes over the falls!

    Like

  30. Mikey McD Avatar

    Thornton, as a free market capitalist I echo some of your concerns. However, I cite the power of government (which has been sold to the highest bidder-corporations/unions) as the evil which is bring America down. In no way, shape or form do I believe that a republican house/senate/president is equal to an overhaul relinquishing power to Americans.
    In the pro-liberty side of the GD government would be drastically limited (entitlements non-existent, natural interest rates, equitable tax system etc.).
    I would stress family, faith and self reliance over our country’s current idol; government.

    Like

  31. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Of course that might only be until the middle and lower class, start finding ways to fight back. With an economy that is 2/3 based on consumer spending, a consumer strike would bring everything to a screeching halt and while I’m NOT advocating it, we sure do celebrate the “Boston Tea Party”……

    Like

  32. Mike Thornton Avatar

    I think family, faith and self reliance are fine things.
    I also think that it indeed does “take a village to raise a child” and that the health (on every level) of the community and all it’s people, directly impacts my family, my ability to be self reliant and to some degree is a measure of my “faith” since there is an old saying that states: “Fatih without Works is Dead!”

    Like

  33. Mikey McD Avatar

    I am all for a consumer strikes and value based actions. The best votes we cast are with our wallets. But we must acknowledge that the pain needed to get consumers to act will hurt the lower/middle class the most.
    I ‘trust’ that big oil knows the line and will milk us for every penny they can (with or without tax breaks) and consumer strikes would never materialize.

    Like

  34. Mike Thornton Avatar

    And I would suggest that one (not the only) way to start lessening the power of BIG Oil is to stop dragging our feet on developing alternatives.
    We should have been doing this from the time of Carter’s Presidency, but BOTH political parties have sold us and the Country out over the intervening years.
    Another is to develop 21st (and even 22nd) century public transportation, coupled with transit oriented development, that allows for people to be able to live, shop (and hopefully) work in the same general neighborhood.
    There are many things that can be done and many of them can be done in the private sector or as private/public partnerships and yes even as SMART publicly funded governmental projects.

    Like

  35. Mike Thornton Avatar

    And let me add that of all the people who post here, Steve Frisch knows as much or more about how to do this kind of stuff as anyone!

    Like

  36. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “And I would suggest that one (not the only) way to start lessening the power of BIG Oil is to stop dragging our feet on developing alternatives.”
    Aside from nuclear power, what alternatives?

    Like

  37. Mikey McD Avatar

    Necessity is the mother of invention… nothing like high gas prices to get the free market engineers focused on solutions!
    p.s. if I was forced to “live, shop (and hopefully) work in the same general neighborhood” I would move out of the country.

    Like

  38. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Solar, Fuel Cell, Bio Fuels, Wind, Tide, they all have uses, and we should use them for what they can provide. But let’s be honest, I’m not sure that nuke power is really a viable “alternative”. Fukishima shows how bad things can go and largely that was caused by the inability to deal with the waste product that was piling up on site. If somebody can come up with a way to make the plants safe (under even the most remote possibilities) and a sustainable way to dispose of the waste product, then we could do that as well, I would think.
    The point is that there is no “magic bullet” and so there needs to be a combination of fuel sources, transportation improvements, fuel efficient community design and building design/construction, energy retrofits, conservation and many more things that I don’t even know exist!

    Like

  39. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Oh my, consumer strikes. The most seditious form of direct action in a capitalist economy. A selective consumer strike by 40% would only take about a week to get attention. Look what Ghandi accomplished non violently with consumer strikes against British interests.

    Like

  40. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “Solar, Fuel Cell, Bio Fuels, Wind, Tide, they all have uses, and we should use them for what they can provide.”
    The point is they can’t provide the amount of power fossil fuels provide, and what they can provide costs much more per kilowatt-hr.
    Bio fuels are great as long as you don’t mind starving the poor. OK I suppose if you don’t know any.

    Like

  41. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    Messeiurs Emery and Thornton, check out the video I posted. It’s close to an hour but has a good overview of the scale of the problems and the solutions. The lecturer is on your side politically, so there’s nothing to worry about there.

    Like

  42. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    Hang on, it’s ‘messieurs’, isn’t it?

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  43. Mike Thornton Avatar

    First off, Greg, I can promise you that I know way more poor people than you do!
    And “Corn” is the least efficient source for bio-fuel, hemp and algae(s) are much better alternatives. I didn’t say that any of alternatives I listed can replace ALL fossil fuels either singly or even in combination. However each has a place along with all the other activities I mentioned, regarding design of the built environment, public transportation, various efficiency measures etc.
    And more to the point, since the big oil companies clearly don’t need taxpayer funded subsidies in order to operate and be profitable, if we’re going to invest in energy production, we should be looking to the future, not the past!

    Like

  44. George Rebane Avatar

    At least one benefit of keeping an eye on the past is so we may discover what not to do again.

    Like

  45. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Absolutely, George!
    I heard a great saying once that applies to this and many of the other discussions we seem to be having here: “Tradition is the living faith of dead people. Traditionalism is the dead faith of living people.”

    Like

  46. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I won’t lose any sleep over the removal of all these energy tax credits, breaks or subsidies. That would include solar, ethanol and wind etal. It is time to let these things make it or fail on their own. Same for mass transit. Why should we subsidize this stuff? Also, grants and loans to non-profits in the environmental industry need to be stopped as well.

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  47. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    wmartin said:
    “…but has a good overview of the scale…”
    Quite right; understanding the scale is the problem. Even the map he presents with one state completely filled with wind farms is, in itself, misleading. Here is a scale test I like.
    See if you can spot a man made CO2 source.
    http://tinyurl.com/3rbaaba
    Thanks for the link by the way.

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