Rebane's Ruminations
May 2011
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George Rebane

Is the Great Divide already under way?  RR readers are familiar with the Great Divide discussion in these pages (RR search ‘great divide’).  The basis for the idea of a structural change in these United States is an old one, one that is provided for by our Constitution, and one that was in lively national discussion even before The War for Southern Independence (aka The Civil War).  Today the debate has again become compelling due to the seemingly irreconcilable polarization between the factions of the Left and those of the Right.

BoeingNLRB One ‘solution’, to the indisputable fact that both sides live in their own universe, is a peaceful separation of the two cohorts into a confederated assembly of the current states.  One that would enable open practice of limited government, Founders’ constitutionality, fiscal prudence, and free markets.  The other would continue the current collectivist path to socialism and whatever may follow that folly.  The actual division of territories is among the several problems that need a good-faith dialogue to solve peaceably.

Another and perhaps more serious problem is the asymmetry with which both sides view the Great Divide.  The people on the Right see themselves in a growing bondage of restraints, constraints, unlimited taxation, and loss of liberties.  Their general response is ‘let us go our own way.’  The Left’s general response is ‘oh no you don’t!’, the direct implication being that they would then very quickly run out of OPM, the fuel that always powers progressivism.

But for completeness, I have to add that there are a few progressives who firmly believe that their social order does not need money from other people; they can generate the necessary wealth themselves.  In fact, some of them even claim that it is the Left that is generating the country’s wealth and dragging along the worthless Right.  (Such progressives should be complemented for their keen insight, and the conversation taken to the next stage of how the Great Divide can remove from them the burden of having to carry the Right.)

A useful path toward the Great Divide is the re-establishment of states’ rights.  Removing such constitutional rights from the states has been a proto-progressive passion at least from the time of Lincoln.  Many recognize that the expansion of the Interstate Commerce Act (1887) and central banking (Federal Reserve 1913) have been the prime tools for reducing states to administrative districts of a strong federal government.

Today a last bastion of states’ rights is how they divide themselves into ‘right to work’ and ‘forced union’ states.  For all intents and purposes this already is a step toward the Great Divide, with the proviso that, if properly handled, such a divide may not even be necessary.  But here’s the rub.  The Left is lying to all ignorant enough to believe them that not forcing workers to join unions is actually denying workers their rights.  This twisted logic is one of the insane pillars upon which collectivism proudly stands.


By every measure available, states that allow workers to freely join unions (or not) have out-performed those whose governments use the gun to force union membership.  For that reason companies like Boeing have been actively migrating the growth parts of their business to states where workers are free to choose.  And the unions, correctly sensing a seminal danger to their survival, are pulling out all the stops and paying the right politicians and bureaucrats to bring the full force of government to stop such dangerous actions by America’s corporations.  Laffer and Moore detail these goings on in the 13may11 WSJ (‘Boeing and the Union Berlin Wall’) from where the nearby graphic is purloined.

The hope here is that most Americans have yet to join the ranks of the entitled sheeple, and will see that such union tactics benefit neither them nor the nation.  In the interval Obama’s administration and the Democrats are throwing the National Labor Relations Board into the breach to tell Boeing where it can and cannot build its airplanes.  This is a first, and would mark a giant step forward in the socialization of America.  And, of course, it further motivates those of us on the Right to permanently shed the looney tunes and merrie melodies of the Left.

My feeling is that this is just the beginning of such debates as the Right-leaning states begin to flex their atrophied muscles.  What will power the division is the fiscal hurricane that will soon sweep the land.  Citing an avalanche of references, Mauldin and Tepper (Endgame) point out that we are past the tipping point.  Most of the world’s governments are in terrible fiscal shape and have only “bad and worse choices” consisting of inflate, default, or devalue (a form of inflation).   These governments, including the US, “simply lack the ability to fulfill” their debt, entitlement, and pension obligations.

Having passed the tipping point, the only unknown is how we will hit bottom.  Will it be a repeat of Weimar 1923, Brazil 1999, Argentina 2001, Iceland 2008, or something more draconian that involves restructuring the government or the nation itself?  The known part is that both the Right and the Left will do all they can to convince Americans that it was the other side that caused all the damage, and that fundamental changes to governance must be made if we are to avert a similar disaster.  And depending on the extent of the damage, one of those changes might well be a form of The Great Divide.

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458 responses to “An Eerie Feeling re the Great Divide”

  1. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Check the Facts: the wealthy already pay 97% of all income taxes (more if you take into consideration that many of the wealthy also pay taxes through their corporations). The ‘un-wealthy’ pay approx 3%! They don’t call our tax system ‘progressive’ for nothing!
    “The wealthiest 1 percent of the population pay 37 percent of the income tax. The top 10 percent pay 68 percent of the tab. Meanwhile, the bottom 50 percent—those below the median income level—now earn 13 percent of the income but pay just 3 percent of the taxes.”
    “ask the wealthiest companies and people in the nation to pay their fair share of taxes”
    Posted by: Mike Thornton | 15 May 2011 at 03:05 PM

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  2. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    No libertarian believes in subsidies. Though, I do understand that I NEED oil to sustain my standard of living. BTW, no one forces you to buy gasoline; you choose to buy it. BTW, government earns more on every gallon of gas sold than big oil.
    “Meanwhile how dare anyone even think about cutting subsidies to gigantic oil conglomerates” Posted by: Mike Thornton | 15 May 2011 at 03:05 PM

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  3. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    I’m still waiting for the examples of the folks being forced to become evangelical Christians and the school children in Texas being forced to learn creationist goble-dee-gook. Of course, I’m not holding my breath.

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  4. George Rebane Avatar

    BradC, it seems that injecting news reports of obvious and criminal anti-government activities diverts and dilutes the intent of the serious nature of the Great Divide discussion to which I draw attention in this and my previous posts on the subject – search RR with ‘great divide’.
    The notion of some structural change to the country to allow the polarized ideologies their own regions in which to put into practice their beliefs is not one held by a small number of kooks and discontents. Attempting to ignore the broader appeal of this debate does not, for the intelligent reader, strengthen the arguments for enforced unity by the Left.

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  5. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    I strongly suggest the viewing of Toy Story 3.
    Barbie: “Authority should be granted to those in power by those governed”

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  6. George Rebane Avatar

    Bob, your citation does not specify that creationism is being forced into Texas curriculum. It does however state that intelligent design is. Secular humanists (you?) do not allow any discussion to proceed that separates ID from creationism, nor does it permit the citing of major scientists positing that in the micro-scale it looks as if our universe looks like a running program.
    I have long attempted to bring these arguments to secular humanists, and as with countering data on AGW, it is just ignored and the original claims repeated. Not much progress in dissecting ideas with that approach.
    My thoughts on this are available from searching RR with ‘intelligent design’. The RR search slot is right under the picture of that handsome bearded guy in the left column.

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  7. RL Crabb Avatar

    All I am doing is refuting Scott’s claim that Texas isn’t adding creationist materials to the curriculum, which they clearly are.

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  8. Mike Thornton Avatar

    OMG, now they’re defending the Wall Street criminals and predatory lenders.
    Do you guys ever watch the news or do you just switch between RR, FOX and Rush?
    I suppose that all of the homeowners, who did noting wrong and are now hopelessly underwater because of the housing crash and/or are now living in foreclosure deserts unable to refinance, sell or move are to blame for that as well?
    You should really try watching the Oscar winning documentary “Inside Job” and then get back to me about who is really to blame for this situation

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  9. Mike Thornton Avatar

    George is it OK if public schools start teaching “Intelligent Design” from the Islamic perspective?

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  10. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    “Inside Job” is that the one about Elliot Spitzer using tax dollars for prostitution? Or the one documenting Gavin Newsoms affairs with during time as mayor of S.F.? Or the one about health care in Cuba being awesome? So many good movies so little time.
    I simply stated that it takes two entities to have a transaction (in this case a loan); a bank and a signer. The bank underwriting failed stockholders and many American’s failed themselves by KNOWINGLY leveraging up and buying in a bubble. I have little sympathy for the signers. I have great sympathy for the taxpayers left holding the proverbial bag.
    You can blame capitalism amidst the facts that our government forced banks to relax underwriting standards to promote home ownership (under repubs and dems)and signers knowingly entered into each transaction.
    ID is the least of our schools worries; thanks dept of education!

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  11. George Rebane Avatar

    Bob, does that mean that what I just wrote above made no impact on you viz this discussion?
    MikeT, I neither understand your question nor know what ID “from the Islamic perspective” is.
    Agree with MikeyM about the priority of ID concerns in schools.

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  12. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    So McD–can you show that Eliot Spitzer used tax dollars for prostitutes, because the DA could not, because he was not prosecuted. (I did not really follow this case and I would be the first to say that if he used state dollars to pay for his liaisons he should be prosecuted)
    And is Gavin Newsom having affairs against the law?, or for that matter an issue that government should in some way be involved in? Is that a libertarian position? that the state should take an interest in where a mans penis is?
    Now I may never vote for either of these guys for elective office (I think infidelity is a serious moral character flaw) but I don’t think they are something government should be involved in unless they result in a misappropriation of public funds.
    I actually agree with you about the signers being equally responsible with the banks–I just wonder what the consequences would have been if we had allowed 1/2 of all home loans in America fail? I had this very conversation in the winter of 2009 with my sister, who had no idea that her home mortgage was actually insured by AIG.

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  13. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    If only we had a federal department in charge of regulating banks… oh wait bankers looked to a laundry list of government regulatory agencies (SEC, OST, FDIC, HUD, US Treasury, and Federal Reserve to name a few) for acceptance, oversight and approval. The banker’s passed EVERY government agency’s litmus test.

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  14. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    I attended the UC Berkeley cattle call commencement Saturday morning, a cool, cloudy experience. Were it not for the clouds, the unexplained delay of almost an hour past the 10AM start might have caused some sunburns.
    I don’t have the program handy, but I believe it was either the UCB President or Chancellor who had to egg on some applause from students and the audience after campus ‘green’ and ‘climate change’ initiatives were lauded. It wasn’t a popular topic, time to move on.
    The tide of the science is not on alarmism’s side. To date, the actual forcing from the theorized positive feedbacks are only said to be on the order of 1 watt per square meter out of about a 300 W/m2 of incident sunlight, and this is also the order of magnitude estimated for the forcings related to clouds and aerosols being driven by the newly discovered solar and galactic cosmic ray forcings.
    Here’s a fresh report on the CERN CLOUD experiment. Data has been taken, the promise of papers in the next 2 or 3 months (as early as July or August) is what many have been waiting for.
    http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/multimedia/45950

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  15. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Sorry, Frisch, but Milton Friedman didn’t consider himself “conservative”. He was a self described “classic liberal” or libertarian; in my experience, only those decidedly on the left feel a need to label him as a ‘conservative’.

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  16. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Regarding ‘Intelligent Design’, it’s clear it is creationism in new clothes. A synthesis of law and pseudoscience to get around the prohibition of the teaching of religion as science in public schools.

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  17. RL Crabb Avatar

    It seems to me that it is the job of science to explain “what” happened to create the universe. When you get into intelligent design you’re talking about “who” created the universe. Big diff.

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  18. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I thought schooling existed to teach all things. Why is ID so scary? Would environmentalism then be classified as in the same scary vein? It appears the Gaia crowd has no problem with their “religion” being taught. That is why the left is failing, they are always picking winners and losers and are afraid of the things they have no control over. They only like the schooling if they get to pick the topics. I recall being able to have all kinds of discussions in ethics class, social studies and some others. I don’t think the discussions hurt the poor little brains full of mush.

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  19. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    I am traveling to the east coast today for the launch of the National Large Landscape Conservation Network in Boston, and then for a few days of fun in NYC. For me fun is art museums, a broadway show and a trip to Ellis Island to look up my great-granparents on my fathers side. I will only be able to post once a day, however I made a commitment to Scott to come back and answer a few questions, which I will do over the next few days.
    Really, Intelligent Design……..talk about another fault line in the great divide. I am wondering, if our nation splits into many pieces, and one is fundamentalist, and that piece is in the former Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, Texas sub state of Rapture….will I be able to come in and teach evolution?

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  20. RL Crabb Avatar

    Maybe you have the right idea, Todd. Show the kids how creation started from Gaia to Zeus, Odin, Yewah, and throw in some current Buddha, Hindu, etc. Show them how each succeding belief made the other obsolete, until you get to a vague intelligent design.
    You could call it evolution.

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  21. Mike Thornton Avatar

    So it seems that my previous comment about mandatory Christianity in the Conservative States of America, wasn’t really all that far of base now, was it?
    George it’s really interesting how you seem to have difficulty “understanding” things that you just don’t want to deal with. “ID” is “Creationism” and everybody knows that’s what it is.
    You guys are in favor of “Creationism” being taught in public schools (despite the “Separation Clause”) but only if it’s “Christian” Creationism!
    On another note, I find it amazing how many of you are willing to laugh off, crime when it’s committed by rich people, but can’t wait to put a poor person in prison, for life. for a relatively petty offense

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  22. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    “Why is ID so scary? Would environmentalism then be classified as in the same scary vein? It appears the Gaia crowd has no problem with their “religion” being taught.”
    The comparison with ‘Gaia’ is a decent one and I think both subjects could be treated in some reasonable fashion. At some point, it becomes a matter of defining intelligence and wondering about the extent that large systems have to self organize. The moment that deities in the form of 50 foot, bearded versions of humanity enter the picture, you’ve probably passed the line for public schools.
    Since we are human and have to build analogies to understand anything we are all surrounded by religions. Coke vs. Pepsi, kosher food rules, the hydrogen economy, Oliver Stone movies. All about 10% truth wrapped in 90% balderdash but commonly used to explain the world in simple building blocks.
    The thing is that you actually need this stuff. If people acted purely in their own self interest within the group, the group will break down. At least I think so, honestly I can’t think of any large groups that don’t have a set of religiousish beliefs at their core. Lacking a counterexample, I’ll go with the idea that groups require religion.

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  23. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Crabb, even though your comment was a twist of words to be funny, I think what you have said is how it used to be. We discussed everything, every religion and even no religion. It was contained in Ethics class in the 60’s. I do not even know if they teach it anymore. The world is a complex place and I do not understand why non-believers in anything other than “we came from the pond slime” crowd get to be discussed. Regarding crime and Thornton’s comment. I have never been arrested and so I do not know why you would even ask the question. If you were arrested and have personal experience in the clink, tell us about your crime and how the justice system wronged you. If your question is only Rhetorical, then, I would suggest you are incorrect. I don’t cheer the “getting away with it” by any criminal, either poor or not. The people through their politicians make laws and rules and when people break them and are caught they are punished. Crime 101. But if a poor person sells crack and meth to other poor people I think their punishment is correct. If a rich person steals they should also be punished. We don’t discriminate but your question makes me wonder why you do.

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  24. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    Todd, are you really going to get into this ridiculous, distracting, irrelevant ‘arrested’ thing again. Why don’t we try to stick to the substance of the ideas and try to avoid the delving into personal peccadillos? There are some good ideas flowing here and it would be a shame to devolve. (only a veiled reference to ID intended)

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  25. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Todd, seems to have this thing about people (especially me) being arrested for some reason.
    It makes me think of the Leo DiCaprio line in “The Departed”; “Do you want to know about what happened in the showers?”
    I’m glad to hear that Todd believes in “Law and Order” and I appreciate that he is putting as much energy into demanding that Wall Street criminals and “Banksters” are prosecuted for their crimes as he puts into exposing President Obama’s “Manchurian Muslim” secret identity!
    Just as a point of clarification, If I now were to ask Todd (which I’m not) “How many criminal acts have you engaged in while managing to never get arrested for them?”, how long would it take for George to delete my post, while allowing Todd to go back to the very same libel and slander that he promised to stop doing, only one week ago?

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  26. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    On the pro-liberty side of the great divide banks would live and die with their underwriting and signers would fail or succeed based on intelligence/prowess.
    I suspect the anti-liberty states would do away with all risk (both to banks and to signers) as a means of protecting the sheep from the wolves.
    Great News! Both sides of the great divide will have participants; split between those looking for security and those seeking opportunity.

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  27. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Mikey, the left never takes personal responsibility for anything, it is always someone else’s fault. The divide gets larger because their side is simply a bunch of whiny, self important scofflaws.

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  28. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    On the pro-liberty side parents/students could choose from a variety of schools (and curriculum).
    On the pro-liberty side individuals would be empowered to seek out God in whatever manner they choose (as long as it does not negatively affect the liberty of others- think burning crosses and beheadings).

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  29. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Man, you guys fall into the petty and small pit really fast don’t ya
    It’s actually kinda sad….

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  30. RL Crabb Avatar

    I wasn’t kidding about teaching the evolution of religion, but it would better be suited to ethics or history than science. Faith is better suited to Sunday school.
    By saying that life cannot perpetuate and improve itself without divine intervention is speculation. Until we build a space ship that can go to the center of the universe and actually see a giant flaming eyeball composed of pure energy, or find out we are a smudge in a petri dish being studied by a giant scientist who looks like the church lady from SNL, looking through a microscope and saying “Isn’t that special!”, it’s unprovable as science.
    Oh yeah, and you should add in the scientologist creation story. It’s by far the most entertaining.

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  31. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    “Why is ID so scary?”
    It isn’t ‘scary’. It’s religion. If you want your kids to believe, teach them ID at home and at church.

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  32. Mike Thornton Avatar

    The Church of Scientology threatened to sue me once for doing an interview about their belief in the Galactic Emperor.

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  33. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Frisch writes “will I be able to come in and teach evolution?”
    No, Steve; you couldn’t. There isn’t any overlap between polisci or chef school, and biology. Leave the teaching to those who understand evolution in the context of the underlying sciences.

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  34. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Oh and FYI the Nation of Islam (Black Muslims) have a pretty crazy theory as well!
    They believe that the White Race is the result of a genetic experiment gone horribly awry that was conducted by a deranged Black scientist on a secret island, 5000 years ago.
    And for those of you that don’t know the difference, mainstream Islam, thinks that the Nation’s beliefs were crazy, as well!

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  35. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Those of you who don’t bother reading screen credits might have missed the South Park episode “Trapped in the Closet”, including some delightfully silly sequences based on Hubbard’s pulp science fiction masquerading as science and religion, which ended with Stan, who had been hailed as the reincarnation of L.Ron Hubbard, yelling at the retreating Scientologists, ‘Go ahead, I’m not scared of you, sue me!’
    Every single one of the credits, from producing, to voices, art, music etc. were for John or Jane Smith.
    http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s09e12-trapped-in-the-closet

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  36. Mike Thornton Avatar

    That’s funny!

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  37. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    The Divide widens.

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  38. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Why don’t we add the Buddhist, Muslim, Native American, Hindu, Mormon, Druid and a couple hundred others theories of evolution to our curriculum to round things off.

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  39. George Rebane Avatar

    Since none of my support (readily available on RR) of ID as an alternative scientific theory (to, say, spot creationism) of how ‘what is’ came about has been addressed, I should withdraw from this thread and let the hyperbolics proceed.

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  40. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    It makes ZERO sense to include ID, Creationism, evolution in public school curriculum; teach reading, writing, math (critical thinking skills). Is the goal to pump kids full of information or empower them to know how to find/analyze/create information on there own?
    We had religion class when I went to school. We called it Government/Econ and FDR was god.

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  41. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Since we are a Christian nation I would say we should leave the potpourri of faux religions out.

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  42. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Greg, the question was hypothetical not literal. Lets try to stay out of the pit OK?
    I am proud of being a working man, making a payroll, managing to a budget and investing my own money.
    I don’t see why you would denigrate that.

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  43. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Well, there ya go.
    As I said before (using Todd as an example) there would clearly be only one religion in the Conservative States of America. So, it also appears to be the case that when folks (here) start making the case that “ID” should be taught in public schools, they are talking about one specific “designer”, the White, blue eyed, blonde haired Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Papa Yahweh to the exclusion of any and all others.
    That, my friends is exhibit a of the totalitarian mindset of today’s conservative!
    “Freedom of Religion”? Forget it!
    Now do you understand why I asked, if “ID” could be taught from an Islamic perspective, George?
    Steve: the answer to your questions is “because they have a limited bag of options to choose from!”

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  44. George Rebane Avatar

    MikeT, how it “appears (to you) to be the case” that ID must in any way be connected to the Judeo-Christian God, or any god at all, is absolutely beyond me. All such pronouncements declare is that either the notion of ID is not clear to your, or you are trying to score knuckle-dragger points on the conservatives. Perhaps there is a third explanation.

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  45. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    As an atheist Thorton, how is it you can even have an opinion on any religion? Usually the left is practicing pagan rituals or some form of witchcraft so I usually don’t rely on their expertise about GOD. It appears you have a prejudice against white people based on your screed? Why is that? No Mikey, I appreciate all religious believers but that doesn’t change the fact we are a Christian nation. I have respect for every race and ethnic group and believe America has welcomed all the legal entry’s. I do to. You leftwingers always need a straw man so usually it has been racism. The left even thinks Newt’s calling the Obama Presidency a foodstamp presidency is a “racist” statement. What a hoot. You liberals are all so comical.

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  46. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Frisch, in what galaxy are Locke, Hayek, Smith and Friedman (what, no von Mises?) “conservatives”, and not classic liberals?
    Does reading a work count if there is no understanding?

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  47. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Hey Todd… can you back up you total BS claim that “Usually the left is practicing pagan rituals or some form of witchcraft”.

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  48. Mike Thornton Avatar

    OK, George.
    Let’s get down to the point and stop ducking and dodging, OK?
    (a) Do you believe in intelligent design?
    (b) Does the concept of Intelligent Design. depend on the existence of a “Designer”?
    (c) Who or what, do you believe that designer to be?
    Todd, you have no idea, whether I’m an atheist or not!
    The US is NOT a Christian Nation.
    There is absolutely no state sanctioned religion in this country, the Founding Fathers specifically made it that way and for all your talk about supporting the Constitution one would think that you would know this fact!
    However, what’s clear is that despite the historical record, you seem to think that you can decide by some sort of dictatorial decree, what this nation is and what it isn’t.
    That is a totalitarian mindset!

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  49. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Todd
    Christian Nation? Does that mean we are a theocracy?

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