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May 2011
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George Rebane

Is the Great Divide already under way?  RR readers are familiar with the Great Divide discussion in these pages (RR search ‘great divide’).  The basis for the idea of a structural change in these United States is an old one, one that is provided for by our Constitution, and one that was in lively national discussion even before The War for Southern Independence (aka The Civil War).  Today the debate has again become compelling due to the seemingly irreconcilable polarization between the factions of the Left and those of the Right.

BoeingNLRB One ‘solution’, to the indisputable fact that both sides live in their own universe, is a peaceful separation of the two cohorts into a confederated assembly of the current states.  One that would enable open practice of limited government, Founders’ constitutionality, fiscal prudence, and free markets.  The other would continue the current collectivist path to socialism and whatever may follow that folly.  The actual division of territories is among the several problems that need a good-faith dialogue to solve peaceably.

Another and perhaps more serious problem is the asymmetry with which both sides view the Great Divide.  The people on the Right see themselves in a growing bondage of restraints, constraints, unlimited taxation, and loss of liberties.  Their general response is ‘let us go our own way.’  The Left’s general response is ‘oh no you don’t!’, the direct implication being that they would then very quickly run out of OPM, the fuel that always powers progressivism.

But for completeness, I have to add that there are a few progressives who firmly believe that their social order does not need money from other people; they can generate the necessary wealth themselves.  In fact, some of them even claim that it is the Left that is generating the country’s wealth and dragging along the worthless Right.  (Such progressives should be complemented for their keen insight, and the conversation taken to the next stage of how the Great Divide can remove from them the burden of having to carry the Right.)

A useful path toward the Great Divide is the re-establishment of states’ rights.  Removing such constitutional rights from the states has been a proto-progressive passion at least from the time of Lincoln.  Many recognize that the expansion of the Interstate Commerce Act (1887) and central banking (Federal Reserve 1913) have been the prime tools for reducing states to administrative districts of a strong federal government.

Today a last bastion of states’ rights is how they divide themselves into ‘right to work’ and ‘forced union’ states.  For all intents and purposes this already is a step toward the Great Divide, with the proviso that, if properly handled, such a divide may not even be necessary.  But here’s the rub.  The Left is lying to all ignorant enough to believe them that not forcing workers to join unions is actually denying workers their rights.  This twisted logic is one of the insane pillars upon which collectivism proudly stands.


By every measure available, states that allow workers to freely join unions (or not) have out-performed those whose governments use the gun to force union membership.  For that reason companies like Boeing have been actively migrating the growth parts of their business to states where workers are free to choose.  And the unions, correctly sensing a seminal danger to their survival, are pulling out all the stops and paying the right politicians and bureaucrats to bring the full force of government to stop such dangerous actions by America’s corporations.  Laffer and Moore detail these goings on in the 13may11 WSJ (‘Boeing and the Union Berlin Wall’) from where the nearby graphic is purloined.

The hope here is that most Americans have yet to join the ranks of the entitled sheeple, and will see that such union tactics benefit neither them nor the nation.  In the interval Obama’s administration and the Democrats are throwing the National Labor Relations Board into the breach to tell Boeing where it can and cannot build its airplanes.  This is a first, and would mark a giant step forward in the socialization of America.  And, of course, it further motivates those of us on the Right to permanently shed the looney tunes and merrie melodies of the Left.

My feeling is that this is just the beginning of such debates as the Right-leaning states begin to flex their atrophied muscles.  What will power the division is the fiscal hurricane that will soon sweep the land.  Citing an avalanche of references, Mauldin and Tepper (Endgame) point out that we are past the tipping point.  Most of the world’s governments are in terrible fiscal shape and have only “bad and worse choices” consisting of inflate, default, or devalue (a form of inflation).   These governments, including the US, “simply lack the ability to fulfill” their debt, entitlement, and pension obligations.

Having passed the tipping point, the only unknown is how we will hit bottom.  Will it be a repeat of Weimar 1923, Brazil 1999, Argentina 2001, Iceland 2008, or something more draconian that involves restructuring the government or the nation itself?  The known part is that both the Right and the Left will do all they can to convince Americans that it was the other side that caused all the damage, and that fundamental changes to governance must be made if we are to avert a similar disaster.  And depending on the extent of the damage, one of those changes might well be a form of The Great Divide.

Posted in , , ,

458 responses to “An Eerie Feeling re the Great Divide”

  1. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    “Today the debate has again become compelling due to the seemingly irreconcilable polarization between the factions of the Left and those of the Right.” Factions, yes, but very small factions. I think there are some vocal extremists out there, but the majority are, middle of the road, moderates.
    I think the polarized factions are peopled mostly by middle age folks who are just getting a little too set in their ways. What is the average age of a commenter here? 60 years old, or older? Where are the political opinions of the young being voiced?

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  2. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Wow, Steve “I said conservatives consistently support monopoly” – where does that come from? Can you give concrete examples of that fantasy?
    Was it the Exxon example? “Once a monopoly is established, the monopolist can collude with others or form strategic alliances to maintain prices above the level of optimal economic efficiency, thus realizing unreasonable profits, such as a $11.6 billion quarterly profit for Exxon)” Exxon is a monopoly? You don’t like a private company to make a profit? Please Steve, can you give us a run down on what those profits were in relation to sales? What operations contributed to the profit? If you want cheaper oil, then we need a lot less demand and/or a lot more access to production. It’s that simple. Free markets are not created by a complete lack of regulations. Free markets only exist where there is a level, fair playing field with enforceable contracts and the rules of contracts upheld in a court of law. How about those GM bond holders that bought at a promised set of rules. And who pulled the rug out under them and broke the rules? It wasn’t the conservatives. And who mandates different rules for different skin color? Not the conservatives. It’s libs who like and create monopolies. Such as the public school system and labor unions.

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  3. Mike Thornton Avatar

    That is a great point, Brad!!!

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  4. George Rebane Avatar

    When we get into all or nothing reasoning, things get pretty comical. Arguing that I dismiss the political component of finding a suitable form of governance is just a symptom of bad reading skills. RR stands as a record of my credo in how proper social structures should be built and maintained.
    Crediting me with originating some fairly important ideas about conservatism and classical liberalism and being their sole practitioner is simply humorous.
    Fortunately or not, culture is the hands-down driver of politics, and not the other way around. Marx advanced the proposition (actually stolen from the French Jacobins) that politics could drive culture to generate the perfect communist man from an amalgam of diverse cultures. The USSR attempted that practice and failed miserably. The constituent cultures rejected the politics of the central state, and went on to discover their own.
    America’s secret has been the genius of the Founders who crafted a country that could accept people from all over the world, people who would never dream of publicly carrying/displaying the flags of their former homelands during American celebrations, people who would never demand that their language becomes an accepted alternative to English, people who came as immigrants to offer their progeny into the American amalgam, and not to set up colonial enclaves of what they purported to leave behind.
    Not understanding the difference between an unassimilated multi-cultural society, and one that welcomes multiple cultures into a working process of assimilation is either an intellectual hurdle, or a hope that the audience is too dense to understand the difference. In any event, the ex-KGB apparatchik in DaveK’s 13 May 2011 at 09:50 PM comment spelled it out correctly, and our Left has been doing its best to put it into practice.

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  5. George Rebane Avatar

    “Where are the political opinions of the young being voiced?” To the extent that they have them, they are being voiced in their schools (beats studying) and the voting booths. These forums that argue from various versions of history and current events are not suitable to minds that find more compelling interests elsewhere. As Brian Kaplan has shown (‘The Myth of the Rational Voter’), they vote on the side of the most often heard slogans.

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  6. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    “…they vote on the side of the most often heard slogans.” Perhaps the Great Divide could be viewed as a sloganeering echo chamber used by the polarized factions to win the youth vote.

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  7. Mike Thornton Avatar

    George writes: “they vote on the side of the most often heard slogans.”
    That would explain the rise of the modern conservative movement, since for all the belly-aching we hear about the so-called “liberal media” conservative and pro-corporate messages dominate the airwaves and most mainstream newspapers.
    If I’m hearing what George is saying correctly, than the retention of culture with assimilation is to be desired and valued, but the retention of culture without assimilation is to be discouraged and dismissed. I think that I basically agree with this premise and if that is indeed what’s being said, I wish George would enlighten some of his friends, since it’s pretty clear that their idea of assimilation means ” totally adopt my culture, values and beliefs or get lost!”
    Can I also add that there should be an equivalent of “Godwins Law” that applies to the pulling out of the Soviet Union, at the drop of the hat, to be the universal boogieman (next to the Muslims).
    I mean, come on George, the “Cold War” is over. Don’t you remember Saint Ronnie Raygun defeated the “Ruskis” in single handed combat, while balancing a ball on his nose and trading weapons for hostages with Todd’s friends in Iran.

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  8. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Barry, all I can say to you is that you should probably reread Wealth of Nations, especially with an eye to the fact that he never ran a ‘business’ never met a payroll, never invested a large sum of money, and rejected his Christianity for Deism as a student.
    “Fortunately, competition need not be anything close to “perfect” to provide incentives for good management and a cornucopia of other benefits”, is interpreted by scholars to illustrate that as a scholar and well known ‘absent minded professor’, Smith was espousing a theory, stated in absolute terms to make a scholarly point. I just finished reading Nicholas Phillipson’s biography of Adam Smith, and re-reading both The Wealth of Nations and his Theory of Moral Sentiments.
    Scott, if your interpretation was not clouded by prejudice you might have noted that we are actually agreeing. But in short, I will restate my thesis. Smaller is better. More diverse is better. Distributed is better. Government, led by both conservatives and liberals has contributed to the promotion of the big, the sole, and the concentrated in business. This is a net weakness in Capitalism that must be corrected, or Capitalism, a system I love and believe is the best we have to date to allocate resources, will suffer the same fate as socialism and communism; relegated to the dustbin of history.

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  9. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    By the way Crabby, I suggest that rather than standing on the sidelines and isolating yourself by elevating cynicism and sarcasm to an ‘art form’ (which you are admittedly quite good at) you get back in the mix in this great country of ours. It is worth saving and we need everyone working to do it.

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  10. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Mike, thanks for the compliment.
    The thing I find most interesting is how unprepared most here are to consider an idea in its totality. It seems few have the capability to conceptualize, analyze, synthesize and intellectually internalize information. It is though Fox News is the new brain and anything that takes more than 30 seconds on a video screen is to hard to try to understand.
    (Except for George of course who has great critical thinking skills and uses them to indoctrinate weaker minds)
    I think I’ll just go now though—the sycophants are to depressing. I would rather read.

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  11. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    As we can read, Thornton and Frisch really are socialists with a redo of history at the snap-to. Total hypoocrites in the real sense.
    Crabb, you are wise to stray on the sidelines since you slay all of us.
    I don’t think I have ever read a bunch of hooey as is written by the left here. I would say Mr. Rebane’s real world experiences trump a retired disc jockey and a non profit corporate “leader”. How fitting.

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  12. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Th illogical, fact-less, hypocritical, emotion based propaganda spewed here by the openly progressive is of no surprise.
    The progressives damn folks who simply look to produce, love, serve mankind and live based on individual liberties as opposed to the current over taxed, over regulated, over manipulated, over entitled society. They refuse to connect the dots between individual liberty and capitalism. They type hatred on keyboards designed/produced by capitalists, travel, listen to music, eat, cross bridges, treat sickness, call long distance- all THANKS TO CAPITALISM. They live better than kings from the past- ALL THANKS TO CAPITALISM.
    For it is there inability to reason, create, produce, design, thrive that forces them to live off of the the success of others via using the government as a club (tanks/guns) and drives them to hate/punish the successful via government control.
    You cannot believe in private property/individual liberty and be a collectivist.

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  13. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Yeah, Todd, and most, if not all of those wonderful benefits of “CAPITALISM” started out as PUBLICLY FUNDED, Research and Development projects, in PUBLICLY FUNDED entities, like the PUBLICLY FUNDED university system and the PUBLICLY FUNDED military.
    God, do you even have any toes left?, Because the way you shoot yourself in the foot after pulling it out of your mouth a hundred times a day, has just got to be in the Guinness Book of World Records!
    And quit sucking up to George! You’re getting to be like Sean Hannity with his puppet master Mark Levin.

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  14. RL Crabb Avatar

    If I was standing on the sidelines, I wouldn’t be involved in this so-called conversation. It’s not just sarcasm, it’s having to watch this parade of idiots year after year after year. I was there for NH2020. I spent countless evenings sitting through torturous planning commission meetings. I am just amazed at the inability of supposedly grown men sniping at each other while the state and the country go down the shitter.
    Yes, I blame all of you, liberal, conservative, martian. And I’ll continue to do what I do, exposing you jackanapes to anyone who reads my comics. Sometimes people have to laugh to keep from going mad.

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  15. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Well that is a bit of a “touche” there Bob.
    You perform a real service doing what you do.
    For me, I think that these folks on the right have been bullying people for way too long and it’s about time for folks to start telling them where to get off.
    And I’m sorry if you don’t agree, but when it comes to pushing the country “down the shitter” it’s not a 50-50 deal!

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  16. George Rebane Avatar

    Well gentlemen, have the sincere and heartfelt contributions herein vindicated the proposition presented in the post?

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  17. RL Crabb Avatar

    Sorry, Mike, but your vision of a pure progressive-led future doesn’t appeal to me any more than a Rand-conservative-led future. California is about as close as anything I’ve seen, and it’s a basket case. Sure, you can blame it on Arnold or Pete or George D., but for all intents and purposes it’s been a Democratic state for half a century. Government by initiative has only allowed the legislature to pass the buck so they can say “it’s not my fault” and get reelected.
    And the conservatives are no better. The current strategy of “we have to destroy the village to save it” doesn’t make them heroes in my eyes. And while I agree with them that education has become too anti-American, replacing it with a Texas-type caricullum based on creationist mumbo jumbo is no answer.
    The most frustrating aspect of all this is that I see the seeds of good ideas from Steve and George, but they get buried in the endless one-upsmanship and partisan rhetoric.
    And George, no, I don’t think splitting the country in two is the answer. If that was true, we never would have had a country in the first place, just a bunch of squabbling country-states that probably would have been swallowed up by the Third Reich while they fought over who would lead the parade.

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  18. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    You got it, George. We see the left praising the “great middle” and to not listen to us because we are “radical”. I asked Steve some simple questions and he calls me prejudiced. But he can’t explain why I am prejudiced or give any answers other than to claim we are on the same side. What? He claims smaller is better, but small govt TPers are his enemy and he likes humongous govt. We offer our opinions and ask for some explanations from the left and for that are cast aside as “bullies”. I’m sure if we all met for beers some where we’d have a great time. Still – how will we move forward as a country? On one side are the producers and on the other are the distributors. And the distributors are running out of producers.

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  19. Mike Thornton Avatar

    I would argue that when California really was “progressive”, some pretty amazing things occurred here, Bob. I don’t equate “progressive” with “Democratic Party” either. While coming straight out of the “Founding Fathers”, I would put Ron Paul’s stance on the issue of having our military stationed and occupying countries all over the world in the realm of “progressive” policy, since it actually would help the nation to “progress” into the future.
    To me the real issue is “progressive” vs. “regressive” and I think it’s fairly clear that the vast majority of people that post here fall into the “regressive” camp.

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  20. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    “Well gentlemen, have the sincere and heartfelt contributions herein vindicated the proposition presented in the post?”
    Of course it has. It’s low hanging fruit for a spat.
    Blog political arguments about what-was consist of viewing history as a sort of simplified clay which can be manipulated to suit the view, arguments about what-will-be overinvolve a charming notion that the ship can be driven towards a destination.
    My own working theory is that the evils each side sees in the other is merely an expression of the political unit’s (or ‘country’ in this case) need to remain stable. In an era of abundant land and natural resources, individual freedom (and risk) is tolerably easy to maintain, in an era of diminishing resources and increasing density, the population will cook up some sort of combination of central control and/or peer pressure to keep things ambling on.
    In an increasingly heterogeneous country, top down control by large organizations will tend to be the chosen route. The Left sees corporations and the Right sees central government as a prime mover, but they are more results than causes.

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  21. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    This is EXACTLY the type of idiotic, illogical, reasonless crap the progressives teach our kids today.
    Just where do the Mike Thornton’s of the world think governments get their funding from?
    FACT: “PUBLICLY FUNDED” PROGRAMS ARE FUNDED BY TAXPAYERS (PRODUCERS)!
    “Yeah, Todd, and most, if not all of those wonderful benefits of “CAPITALISM” started out as PUBLICLY FUNDED” Posted by: Mike Thornton | 14 May 2011 at 06:38 PM
    BTW, I bet less than 1% of the goods and services existing today were birthed via public funds.

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  22. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    OK Mike, now I’m regressive. I was prejudiced, but now I’m regressive. Facts? Examples?

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  23. RL Crabb Avatar

    wmartin has a good point, in that we have run out of frontiers to conquer. It is a nation of dwindling natural resources and space, and much of the current debate is how to protect the environment and still have the kind of gung-ho consumer society that made this country rich. It can’t be done, especially with so many other nations scrambling for a piece of the shrinking pie.
    Lifestyles will have to change, but it needn’t be less than what we have now. Government will necessarily be part of the solution, but industry and small businesses need to be able to foster the innovation needed in the transition. At present that is not happening in California. In the last ten years, I’ve seen too many friends take their business elsewhere. (And I don’t mean cranky old libertarians. I’m talking true blue liberal progressives.)
    If the goofballs that run this state had any gonads, they’d hold a constitutional convention and clean out all the dead weight to make this place competitive again. Instead, they just pile on more regulations and bureaucracy and figure business will come here for the nice weather.

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  24. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Todd, you’re not even worth responding to anymore.
    You clearly have no ability to follow even the most simple logic train, period!
    Do you understand the difference between publicly funded and privately funded?
    Do you also get the fact that nearly all the examples you cited were created using a pool of everyone’s tax dollars and that now private companies are making profit for themselves and their stockholders after taking advantage of projects that they didn’t pay to start and in many cases develop and would never have funded on their own?
    Do you get the fact that all of these private companies use publicly funded infrastructure, from roads to police protection and that while the profits are privatized the costs are socialized?
    Scott do you want to eliminate Social Security as it is now constituted?
    If so you’re a “regressive”. Do you want to change medicare into some version of the Ryan Plan?
    If so you’re a regressive.
    Do you want to eliminate the “Minimum Wage”, cut back on work place safety, food or environmental protection regulations, if so…..
    Is that enough for ya?
    Better yet, here’s the kicker question (kinda like “You might be a Red Neck if…..)
    Do you think Todd makes sense or do you think he’s simply a blind partisan without a clue?

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  25. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Well gentlemen, have the sincere and heartfelt contributions herein vindicated the proposition presented in the post?
    Ah, yep!

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  26. RL Crabb Avatar

    I always have to remind myself that the people who write and contribute to these blogs tend to be at the far ends of the political spectrum. While the party faithful are working tirelessly to purge their platforms of anything that reeks of pragmatism, the majority of voters just want to keep their jobs and raise their families without being subjected to ideological nonsense.
    As examples, there’s local blogger Curtis Walker, who wants to kick the blue dogs out. (You mean like Gabby Giffords?) Or Don Pelton, who calls Obama a “republican president”. On the right, Russ Steele is happy that Mike Huckabee (a suspected closet socialist) will not run for the nomination. (Still holding out for Attila the Hun?) Or the various tea party people who tell me that the movement has no social agenda. (How about that forty year plan?)
    The hard-ons will no doubt carry the day, be it left or right, but it won’t last. Both sides underestimate the average American’s tolerance for such dogma.
    In the long run, any plan to split up the most successful nation in history will more likely result in the extremeists being exiled to Antarctica, where they will have an endless supply of snowballs to throw at each other.

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  27. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Scott, just for the record, the prejudice I was referring to in your comment was a prejudice against actually reading what i write and thinking about its meaning. I am actually very pro-business. As a matter of fact i would be willing to bet, and demonstrate, that I have done quite a bit to promote business in the region over the years.
    If you construed my comment to mean racial prejudice it was entirely unintentional and I apologize.

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  28. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    ‘I always have to remind myself that the people who write and contribute to these blogs tend to be at the far ends of the political spectrum.’
    A funny thing here is that the ‘center’ would be viewed as incredible political and policy radicals by people from 50 years ago much less 100.
    My thinking is that, given no systemic shocks, you can guess the future of the country. You just have to look at somewhere like the UK. We’ll always find another reason to surveil the population (and find it increasingly practical to do so), give public money to 20 people in order to benefit the 1 person who truly deserves it, and continue tearing down culture and replacing it with bureaucracy.
    Of course, the problem is that there are always systemic shocks, so who knows…?
    It’s all a foregone conclusion, but on a personal level you can always shield yourself from the worst effects of the future (or embrace them) by choosing a place to live in. There’s still a lot of cultural diversity in this country and while it’s impossible to find the US of 100 years ago anywhere (imaging telling Wyatt Earp that he couldn’t gamble or buy laudanum at the druggist, he’d laugh his ass off), rural Utah is certainly different than San Francisco.
    You’d think that the sheer weight of people who do nothing particularly useful for a living, ranging from those on some sort of public assistance to real estate agents to stock speculators to directors of bogus non-profits (it’s pretty obvious what the ‘green’ part is in many cases) would capsize the boat, but somehow it keeps on keepin’ on.

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  29. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Bob, on numerous issues I have demonstrated very moderate positions. I support governance reform, tax reform, smaller government, devolution of power and authority to local governments, multi-year budgeting, performance measurement for state agencies boards and commissions, sunset clauses on regulation and legislation, reigning in public pensions, campaign finance reform, CAPing state budgets, raising the Social Security age limit, and indexing Medicare. On a local level I am a leader of one the few organizations that has come out in support of numerous local building and development projects, including the previous plan for Loma Rica Ranch, Boulder Bay, Homewoood Mountain Resort, Baltimore Ravine and the Timberline project in Auburn. My organization is leading an effort to spotlight hundreds of local businesses through our Geotourism project with National Geographic, with performance metrics to demonstrate the direct economic value of our efforts.
    I am not an extremist.
    The extremists are the ones who truly believe that ‘extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice”. If that extremism diminishes liberty and denies justice it is a vice!
    Yet every time I comment here I am painted as a leftist, collectivist, socialist, rent-seeker, law breaker, and made fun of for having previously been a chef. (As though I should be embarrassed by being a working man who has spent the vast majority of my career making a payroll, managing to a budget, and providing a service)
    The biggest problem here is that the regulars would not be able to recognize a moderate it they slept on their living room floor. This forum creates radicalism, and feeds on the controversy. That means people cannot have meaningful conversations that really gets into the meat of what we need to do to actually apply themselves and solves the problem. This is exacerbated by a host who throws out terms like “The war for Southern Independence” knowing it will be incendiary.
    The only reason I even come here is that I live in this region, and I refuse to allow the outrageous statements here to stand unchallenged. I know that the regular posters here will not ever change their emotionally held opinions based on evidence, but I have hope for the silent readers, who may read something here and take the time to go out and find out for themselves what is really going on.

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  30. George Rebane Avatar

    Well said SteveF. We do, however, watch your ‘feet’, noting examples like the intensity and manner of your support of AB32 and opposition to Prop23. And it is my hope that these pages will in their small way continue to reinforce and broaden the mantle of moderation in which you wrap yourself whenever we are blessed with your visits.

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  31. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    George, as long as disagreement over one issue is couched as extremism your site will be a refuge for unproductive rhetoric.
    I truly believe that climate change is threat, I have seen the evidence and heard some of the best scientists in the world demonstrate the threat, and believe that we can plan for climate change and have a strong vibrant economy at the same time. But this thread is not about climate change.
    My moderation is real, and established long before I learned of Rebanism.

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  32. RL Crabb Avatar

    As I mentioned above, I think Steve has some good ideas. As for the chef slurs, yeah, it’s a low blow. (I used to cook at the Northwoods Clubhouse in Tahoe Donner, so I know how tough it is to run a kitchen.)
    I’ve also seen you in favor of more regulation, like the new rule mandating sprinklers in all new home construction. Hey, it’s great if you can afford it, but it would be a hell of a lot cheaper to design houses with escape routes. What will it do for affordable housing?
    And maybe you are a moderate, but you’ve allied yourself with a lot of people who aren’t. I’d like to believe you could go to Sacramento and talk some sense into the Democrats, but mostly I see the same jockeying for position and power. (Read Dan Walters’ piece in the Friday(?) Sac Bee concerning the Dems plan to rig the initiative process in their favor.)
    I could make the same complaints of the Republican Immovable Objects in the legislature, as if they aren’t having enough problems attracting votes in blue California.
    On a brighter note, at least you won’t have to go to Antarctica to find a snowball today. (Yuck!)

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  33. Mike Thornton Avatar

    It’s interesting that when Steve Frisch supports AB 32, which as Steve correctly points out is an attempt to try and do something about perhaps the biggest potential catastrophe faced by humanity and opposes Prop. 23 which was bankrolled by two Texas oil companies trying to influence California politics for their own financial gain, that’s labeled as “extremist”.
    But whether it’s the climate change deniers or the birthers, who continue to rant about their totally discredited claims, they are to be taken seriously (even though they are, in fact, totally crazy) And on pages like RR they treated as responsible people, who simply have questions.
    Oh, come on….

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  34. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    OK – I’m regressive because I advocate for reform or elimination of programs that don’t work. The Great Society and the War On Poverty and all of the billions thrown at social problems here in this country haven’t worked. SS and Medicare are in serious trouble and are not sustainable as is. There is need for serious reform. We have to honor the promises made to those vested in the system that were forced to pay into it. But we can be progressive and move forward with new ideas. And it should be voluntary. How is offering a free choice a bad thing? Steve claims he wants smaller govt but opts for bigger govt every time the choice is offered. He claims I’m prejudiced because I won’t read his posts. Why don’t we go back and read his and my posts. I’m asking for clarity of his statements and he has ignored almost every one. And Bob, Texas does not have any kind of school science curriculum that have conjured. Your imagination is great for cartoons, but try to stick with reality when you post on line. You must have watched the same propaganda film that warned of the govt forcing folks to become Christians.
    I think the conversation should stay at a level that speaks to our basic beliefs of what is important to us and what role govt should play in our lives. The rest becomes a lot of Daily Kos gag lines being slung at each other.

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  35. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Based on Frisch;s self proclaimed positions on issues I guess I would be a moderate too. But, I am simply who I am and no matter what the conservatives says or believes the left will always call them an extremist. It doesn’t bother me. When I was A supe, I has a position of support for people on the Ridge who wanted to be left alone and have the building of their homes left up to them. These people are the real hermit hippies from Berkley. Well, even though I supported them with my words and vote, they surrounded me on a break in front of the doors and called me Nazi. That convinced me then the left is never satisfied. So I am a extremist for freedom and liberty and proud of it.

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  36. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Bob, I guess my point would be that the policy decisions that we are debating are not as black and white as some here, or on Mr. Pelline’s blog, would have us believe. Usually if there is a vigorous debate or disagreement over policy it is because there are legitimate differences of both opinion and fact driving the approaches, and debate, in the long run should serve to inform and improve the decision-making. I can think of numerous issues where new conditions and fact have changed my mind. For example, owning my own business, meeting payroll and dealing with regulatory mandates has considerably tempered my position on regulatory reform.
    I would posit that it is possible to support fire control inclusions in residential construction (in light of the considerable threat of wildfire in the Sierra Nevada and the large swaths of the region that have no reasonable fire safety coverage) and support the implementation of Title 24 Part 9, while still supporting reasonable exemptions for cost and reasonableness in the implementation of certain parts of it. Few issues are really as simple as the stand alone decision being made, it must be placed in the context of the overall suite of issues that are associated with it.
    Scott, I would further note that I listed about 10 things I support above that are a reflection of supporting smaller government. That hardly jibes with the statement, “Steve claims he wants smaller govt but opts for bigger govt every time the choice is offered.” Not only have I listed them, I am actually doing something about them; advocating for these things in public policy at the local, state and national level; coordinating activities with networks supporting these policies; and when appropriate signing on as a supporter of legislation to address these issues. If you would like to posit your questions again I would be happy to try to answer them, in a civil tone, if we can all agree not to attack peoples motivation with the usual childish banter.
    In response to my statement that Republicans seem to be consistently in favor of monopolies you stated, “Can you give concrete examples of that fantasy? ….. Was it the Exxon example?….. You don’t like a private company to make a profit? ……Please Steve, can you give us a run down on what those profits were in relation to sales? What operations contributed to the profit? ……. How about those GM bond holders that bought at a promised set of rules. And who pulled the rug out under them and broke the rules? It wasn’t the conservatives. And who mandates different rules for different skin color?”
    Are these the questions you would like answered?

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  37. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    Todd,
    I think you are digging yourself a hole and making your own Great Divide. You are assuming the “real hermit hippies from Berkeley” are leftists.
    But, according to you, they were at the Supes looking for support for a lassiz-faire, libertarian life with less government interference.
    The Great Divide becomes a cracked mirror glass with the awareness that nobody (sociopaths excepted) is really that polarized.
    The Great Divide is only helpful for the Party Liners who want to maintain the status quo of subsidies, no bid contracts, and keep the pac money coming in.
    For example, I usually vote democrat but I would vote for Rand Paul. I am not sure about a Paul/Paul ticket (or dynasty) though.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HuBFVzUakk&feature=relmfu

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  38. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Todd, if you are referring to the approval of Title 25 alternative building standards debated in Nevada County in the 1990’s I think that is a good example of you standing up for a part of your constituency that you would have been assumed to be ‘out of step’ with at the time. Kudo’s to you.
    I fully support local governments amending the building standards contained in T-24 for certain residential structures. I also support alternative building codes for street widths, parking requirements, street scape improvements, commercial mixed use development, affordable housing, and recreational facilities.
    Quite frankly I find building codes are usually an impediment to innovation in building and development and can often stand in the way of people who chose to go above and beyond the ‘standards’.

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  39. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Well I guess we agree on at least one thing. Croul is too extreme though.

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  40. Mike Thornton Avatar

    See Todd, when a smart guy like Steve explains it well, you realize that indeed even you have supported “progressive” policies in the past.
    Contrary to popular belief *at least here) “progressive” doesn’t always mean “more regulations” it means “smart regulations”
    I can just see it now, one day Todd will have a “Sanders/Kucinich” bumper sticker on his Chevy Volt!

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  41. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Actually I had to leave so I did not make my whole point. The hippie dippies wanted no one telling them they couldn’t live ten illegal homes to the parcel so we did have a difference in the rules. I supported less government intervention in the boonies regarding houses which is not a “progressive” position but a conservative/,libertarian one. The other point was these lovelies from the ridge would turn out to protest a project and deny others their “rights” while at the same time asking the government to stay out of theirs. That is a good example of the “Thornton Manifesto” position which I reject. You see, maybe with some reading of Bastiat and Locke, perhaps you can come over from the dark side and join the freedom loving Americans.

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  42. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    I, for one, have greatly enjoyed reading Bastiat, Locke, Hayek, Smith, Hume, Burke (whose history of the French Revolution I very much enjoyed), Buckley, Kristol (Irving not William), Friedman (who I once met with my dad), and many other conservative thinkers.
    Hey Mike, perhaps a more thorough reading of conservative philosophy would merely make us more effective spokespeople for liberalism as originally defined: support for liberty, equal rights, free trade, free and fair elections, universal suffrage, capitalism, and freedom of religion. Hey wait, those are all things I still believe in, and define as my political philosophy!
    I suspect that a more careful reading of history and philosophy would lead to the discovery that liberals and conservatives have more in common than they believe today.

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  43. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Todd, another thing we would agree on re: the Ridge, or other places. Support for alternative housing construction does not mean unequal enforcement of zoning laws. The Ridge residents should have the same zoning and variance process as any other citizen.

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  44. Dixon Cruickshank Avatar
    Dixon Cruickshank

    I just wish those on the left could make a statement that wasn’t 5000 words, I can’t read them anymore.
    And Steve the whole point of my post was those are YOUR fish and you can’t fish either. The models they use are just like the AGW ones only worse – they can back to 1945 and totally guess – then adjust for the outcome they want. If you can catch the 5 fish allowed last year in 2 hours their not that scarce – or the other scarce one you can’t away from to catch those 5.
    But you insist on being an expert on everything regulatory – the more the better.

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  45. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Wow, I’ve got a “manifesto”!
    I don’t claim to be a “spokesperson for liberalism” and if there was a time that the conservative movement was being led by great philosophy, that has pretty much ended as far as I can see.
    I listened to the Republican Speaker of the House, on Face the Nation today and when he was directly asked about what, if anything should be done to help the millions of Americans facing huge housing debt and foreclosure that was caused by the rapacious behavior of the big banks and Wall Street, he hemmed and hawed and eventually said something to the effect of “The quicker we get through this the better.” Now apparently, if that means millions of destitute and even homeless American families, that’s just the way it goes.
    Meanwhile how dare anyone even think about cutting subsidies to gigantic oil conglomerates, ask the wealthiest companies and people in the nation to pay their fair share of taxes, do anything to create meaningful work for the 30 Million Americans that are unemployed or under employed while many of these great bastions of “capitalist” achievement, that some here love to worship, sit on the sidelines with trillions of dollars in cash (much of it from taxpayer bailouts) waiting it out hoping that they’ll be able to crash the economy to the point where unions, workers rights, product safety and environmental protections are swept away.
    I’d have a lot easier time looking for ways to find common ground with some of these folks, if they would take some of these issues as seriously as they take on things like Obama’s birth certificate or if they’d put 1/2 as much energy into attacking the banks as they do into ridiculing people who are trying to address global climate change.
    (I guess we’ll just have to ad another entry into the manifesto)

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  46. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Dixon, perhaps you should try Twitter.

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  47. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Perhaps if they are my fish too, I would like to steward them appropriately so future generation can learn to fish.
    Otherwise they may be learning to fish in the Crab Nebula.

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  48. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    OK Steve – I see that you say you are for “smaller govt” but everything else listed doesn’t sound like smaller govt. to me. More power to local govt’s sounds nice, but in fact you are not for it. How does increasing regs rammed down from on high work give more power to local govt? It obviously doesn’t. You were for the Loma Rica plan, but it’s full of capitulation to all manner of “green” regs all originating from the ivory towers of moon beam nonsense that imposes higher costs to us here at the local level. Smaller govt means the Feds follow the Constitution. AGW is clearly a dividing point here as you are a true believer and I’m not. Smaller govt means less govt in my life. I can not recall anything you have advocated that would lead to that. If I’m wrong, please update me. And yes, I would like you to answer those questions. See – I do read what you write.

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  49. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    I don’t recall the “big banks and wall street” forcing anyone to re-finance their homes to buy swimming pools, hummers, additional homes to flip (nor did they force folks into buying a home). Banks loosened underwriting which allowed aggressive individuals to leverage themselves for whatever purpose they desired. To simply blame the banks/wall st. is a poor argument. The lack of intelligence on behalf of the mortgage holder is a byproduct of a failed education system. It does help me understand why progressives believe that we all need government to be our keepers. In the Pr-liberty side of the Great Divide both banks and individuals would reap what they sow.
    “what, if anything should be done to help the millions of Americans facing huge housing debt and foreclosure that was caused by the rapacious behavior of the big banks and Wall Street,”Posted by: Mike Thornton | 15 May 2011 at 03:05 PM

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  50. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    There is a “60 Minutes” program on now with Bill Gates on Bin Laden.
    Also a segment on Sovereign Citizens,
    http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/scm.asp?xpicked=4
    More Great Divide supporters?

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